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The Ecomcrew Ecommerce Podcast

Advertise on podcast: The Ecomcrew Ecommerce Podcast

Rating
★★★★★
4.5
from
297 reviews
This podcast has
638 episodes
Language
English
Date created
2015/11/05
Latest episode
2026/04/21
Average duration
24 min.
Release period
9 days

Description

An eCommerce podcast for store owners, hosted by 7-figure store owners Mike Jackness and Dave Bryant. We cover everything in eCommerce from Shopify, to Amazon FBA. From email marketing, to Facebook Ads. Never before has there been a podcast with store owners who are so candid. Subscribe to the Ecomcrew podcast today!

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Check latest episodes from The Ecomcrew Ecommerce Podcast podcast


E641: I tried to get my tariffs back today. Here's what happened.
2026/04/21
Dave breaks down the recent wins for e-commerce sellers: tariff refunds now being available and Amazon rolling back their credit card policy changes. He talks about why this is a bigger deal than it seems to be, how you as an e-commerce seller can start claiming your tariff refunds, and what this means for sellers moving forward. Sellers have gotten the biggest wins in the past week.  First, Amazon sellers have managed to get Amazon to take back their credit card policy changes where Amazon would not allow sellers to pay for advertising with their credit cards. Second, e-commerce sellers are now able to start collecting their tariff refunds after the tariffs were ruled illegal by the Supreme Court.  In this episode, Dave walks through how you can collect your tariff refunds from the US government and breaks down Amazon's response to the sellers who were organizing a protest.   Timestamps 00:00 - Recent big wins for Amazon and e-commerce sellers 00:58 - How to claim tariff refunds 03:08 - The problem with the tariff refunds  04:33 - The refund process and timing 05:30 - Why the US government moved fast to reimburse tariffs 06:26 - My previous experience getting audited by the CBP 12:40 - Amazon's policy change on credit card payments for advertising 13:10 - Seller backlash and protest on April 15th 14:38 - Amazon's PR response  16:31 - The importance of seller organization and collective action 17:29 - How seller protests influenced Amazon's messaging 19:23 - Final thoughts on organizing and pushing for e-commerce seller rights Resources & Links Quiet Light Brokerage ACE CBP System
E640: How Much Money Can You Sue Competitors For on Amazon for IP Infringement?
2026/04/15
Dave talks to Alan Li from Copycatch AI to discuss how Amazon sellers can defend their products from infringement, understand the legal tools available, and learn the process of filing lawsuits to deter counterfeiters. Alan Li shares his experience with IP rights, when to pursue legal action, and how to maximize settlements. Timestamps 00:48 - IP infringement challenges on Amazon 01:16 - How Copycatch.ai helps get listings removed 03:08 - Filing lawsuits on contingency and settlement strategies 05:48 - How to distinguish infringement from generic design similarity 06:46 - Copyright protections for artistic and structural design elements 08:02 - Easiest IP to defend: trademarks vs copyrights vs patents 10:42 - The importance of registering copyrights before enforcement 13:20 - Cost and process of registering trade dress, patent, and copyright 14:31 - How to efficiently protect images and designs for e-commerce 18:31 - Filing ex parte lawsuits and obtaining TROs for swift action 20:36 - When to go straight to litigation rather than DMCA takedowns 23:34 - Estimating settlement amounts based on competitor sales and revenues 26:28 - Using settlement and sales resurgence as part of your IP strategy 29:38 - Challenges of traditional legal fees and how contingency offers a solution 31:12 - Supporting small businesses and mom-and-pop Amazon sellers 32:15 - Building enforceable IP portfolios for ongoing protection 35:19 - How to contact Alan Lee for IP infringement issues Resources & Links Copycatch.ai Quiet Light Brokerage Jungle Scout Helium 10
E639: Maybe Credit Card Points AREN'T Going Away?
2026/04/08
Dave dives into Amazon's updated policies that threaten sellers' credit card points and cash flow, including changes to DD7 payment terms. He shares tips on how to stay afloat amidst these challenges like getting a line of credit, and possibly using DDP shipping to get favorable terms for your next order of inventory. Key Topics How Amazon's new policies on ad payments and DD7 impact cash flow How you can increase credit limits and ad spending thresholds Why you should apply for lines of credit and negotiate payment terms with suppliers Tactical steps to optimize cash flow, including invoice payments and DDP shipping advantages The ongoing black market for seeded Amazon accounts tied to fraud schemes The importance of preserving cash flow for business sustainability Timestamps 00:00 - Amazon's new policies threatening seller cash flow 00:57 - The potential rollout of restricted credit card payments for ads 3:10 - Comparing Google/Facebook policies to Amazon's upcoming changes 4:09 - The glimmer of hope: Amazon offering alternative payments 6:29 - Why ad spend is important for Amazon's shareholders  6:56 - Why a decrease in ad spend could influence policy adjustments 7:56 - The role of invoice payments as a temporary cash flow solution 8:24 - How to request credit limit increases and their benefits 12:45 - The challenges faced with DD7  14:06 - Why Amazon pushed for DD7  16:02 - Fraud on Amazon Resources & Links: Quiet Light Brokerage
E638: The 5 Silent Giants Killing it on Amazon
2026/04/01
Discover how some of the biggest brands on Amazon—some you've never heard of—have dominated the platform and generated hundreds of millions in sales annually. This episode explores the quiet giants of Amazon and their innovative approaches, business models, and how they break the mold. It isn't easy being an Amazon seller.  Its almost infinitesimally hard to be within the top 10 biggest sellers on Amazon.  In this episode, Dave reveals the 5 biggest sellers on Amazon. This episode will dive into what their product niches are, how they operate, their origins and more.  If you're interested in selling on Amazon, this episode is for you. It's filled with valuable insights into how you can leverage your differences against other e-commerce companies and how different product niches can be great opportunities.  Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction 00:28 - Why Amazon sales figures matter for brand growth 01:11 - Quiet Amazon Giant #1 02:08 - Their origins 02:37 - Their competitors   03:06 - How Dave knows co-founder David Ghiyam 06:00 - Quiet Amazon Giant #2 09:23 - Their stock performance 10:18 - Quiet Amazon Giant #3 13:10 - The surprising profitability of small-product companies 14:06 - Quiet Amazon Giant #4 16:26 - The booming coffee category and emerging trends Resources & Links: Quiet Light Brokerage David Ghiyam - LinkedIn
E637: Can You Trust Amazon Keyword Tool Estimates? We Found Out.
2026/03/26
In this episode, we dive into the reliability of the two biggest Amazon SaaS tools - Helium 10 and Jungle Scout. We explore how close these tools come to actual Amazon data and discuss what sellers should keep in mind when using these tools for product research and estimating sales. Timestamps 00:00 - Amazon keyword and sales data tools 00:57 - Why its hard to rely on brand analytics alone 1:21 - How data was collected from three different brands and categories 2:19 - Methodology for comparing keyword search volume 4:42 - Keyword volume discrepancies  5:56 - Overall variance: Jungle Scout vs. Helium 10 accuracy 6:08 - Verifying Helium 10 data and common data interpretation issues 7:03 - Limitations of Helium 10's dashboard and metrics interpretation 8:03 - Possible reasons for Helium 10's inaccuracies  9:00 - Brand analytics data vs. third-party tools  12:21 - Amazon's own sales estimates and their reliability 13:15 - Price comparison: Helium 10 vs. Jungle Scout  14:13 - Alternative affordable tools like Seller Sprite and their usefulness 15:11 - Final thoughts Resources Helium 10 Jungle Scout Seller Sprite Quiet Light Brokerage  As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested. Don't forget to leave us a review over on iTunes if you enjoy content like this. Happy selling and we'll talk to you soon!  
E636: What You Need to Do To Get Tariff Refunds
2026/03/16
Dan Anthony from WePayTheTariffs explains the recent Supreme Court decision that ruled certain tariffs illegal, how the refunds for affected importers will work, and what steps ecommerce owners should take moving forward. The Supreme Court recently struck down President Trump's tariffs.  And that means there's good news and bad news.  The good news is that you're likely going to be entitled to a full refund of any IEPPA tariffs you paid last year after the SCOTUS ruling. The other good news is that the CBP has been instructed to make the job of getting tariff refunds as simple as possible. The bad news is you're going to have to jump through a couple of hoops first. In today's episode, Dan Anthony from WePayTheTariffs is on to clear some of the confusion and skepticism about the refunds and the recent tariff increase that was announced after the Supreme Court passed their judgement.    Timestamps: 00:00 - The Supreme Court's ruling on tariffs 01:44 - What the ruling did and did not address 02:12 - What happens to tariff money? 03:42 - Differences in legal footing between Trump 1.0 and 2.0 tariffs 05:15 - Timeline for implementing new tariffs 09:46 - Current application rates of tariffs: 10% or 15% 10:10 - What you need to do to get tariff refunds 13:37 - The urgency of refunds and how delays cost the US government money 16:58 - The likelihood of refunds being issued 18:54 - Potential government objections to refunds and appeal possibilities 20:19 - Timeline and procedural steps for refund payments 22:04 - Windows to protest tariffs and how they apply here 23:37 - The role of legislative efforts and legal timelines for refunds 26:07 - WePayTheTariffs' mission and ongoing advocacy efforts 28:48 - How small importers can support the campaign and register for refunds Resources & Links: WePayTheTariffs.com — Join the movement to advocate for tariffs refunds CBP Refund Registration — Register for ACH refunds to ensure you receive your money Section 301 Trade Law — U.S. Trade Representative info Section 232 Steel & Aluminum Tariffs — Official documentation As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested. Don't forget to leave us a review over on iTunes if you enjoy content like this. Happy selling and we'll talk to you soon!
E635: How to Use OpenClaw for Your Ecom Brand
2026/03/10
In this episode, Dave dives into how he uses the newest trend in AI: OpenClaw. Dave specifically talks about how he uses it in his business, how you can set it up for your business, and what you need to keep in mind. Thinking about taking some risk off the table? Or are you looking at taking an extended break from e-commerce in general? Know what your e-commerce business is worth with Quiet Light Brokerage.    OpenClaw is the newest trend right now all over the internet. They are essentially an AI agent that lives on your computer, and your files are its playground.  But how useful can it be for your e-commerce business?  In this episode, Dave dives into OpenClaw; how to get it installed in your computer, the things you need to keep in mind when using OpenClaw, and how Dave uses it in his business.  Note: As OpenClaw is still early in its development, many tips are based on recent experience and might evolve over time. Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction to OpenClaw 02:17 - What exactly is OpenClaw? 03:41 - Why use a dedicated computer for OpenClaw?  05:02 - How Dave sets up my OpenClaw server 06:01 - Installing OpenClaw 07:29 - Controlling OpenClaw 08:56 - How OpenClaw works 11:16 - Practical use cases 14:06 - Automating logging  15:31 - Workflow automation 16:26 - Limitations  19:24 - Automating outreach and follow-ups  20:51 - Tips on configuration 23:47 - The evolving memory of OpenClaw 26:48 - When to develop custom apps vs. OpenClaw 29:43 - Final thoughts: Is OpenClaw right for your business? Resources Mentioned  Quiet Light Brokerage OpenClaw Zapier Replit Cursor
E634: How Much Are China Tariffs NOW?
2026/03/02
Confused about tariffs? You're not alone. Here's what the latest ruling means for your bottom line. In this episode, Dave dives into what the latest rulings are, what the real impact on your costs are, and what might be coming up in the next few months.    Thinking about taking some risk off the table? Or are you looking at taking an extended break from e-commerce in general? Know what your e-commerce business is worth with Quiet Light Brokerage.      E-commerce stocks jumped Friday after the Supreme Court struck down most of President Donald Trump's global tariffs, providing relief to online retailers that have been forced to raise prices and alter supply chains.   But is this truly the end of Trump's tariffs?    In today's podcast, Dave dives into what the final tariffs are, what the tariffs may look like in the future, and what changed.  Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction to Tariff Changes and Impact 00:29 - Overview of Recent Tariff Legal Rulings 00:55 - How Tariffs Affect Your Import Costs 01:24 - The Role of Quiet Light Brokerage in Business Stability 02:55 - Winners and Losers from Tariff Rulings 03:23 - The Fate of Section 301 Tariffs 04:20 - Tariffs on China and the Trade Truce 05:18 - Average Tariff Rates Before and After the 15% Global Tariff 06:16 - Duration and Future of the 15% Global Tariff 07:09 - US-China Trade Ceasefire and Negotiations 08:33 - China's Negotiating Leverage Post-Ruling 09:58 - Implications for US Trade Partners: Canada and Mexico 10:52 - Tariff Refunds and DDP Shipments 13:16 - Summary and Final Thoughts on Tariff Planning As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested.   Don't forget to leave us a review over on iTunes if you enjoy content like this. Happy selling and we'll talk to you soon!  
E633: I Snuck Into Alibaba's China HQ
2026/02/23
Dave talks about his experience sneaking into Alibaba's headquarters in Hangzhou, China, delving into its history, operations, and the broader Chinese e-commerce landscape. He also shares insights on Alibaba's innovation, working conditions, and the rise of Chinese e-commerce brands, contrasting them with Western markets. Thinking about taking some risk off the table? Or are you looking at taking an extended break from e-commerce in general? Know what your e-commerce business is worth with Quiet Light Brokerage.    I screwed up.  I was scheduled to go to one of Amazon's biggest conferences in China but there was one big problem. I got the dates wrong. Their security guards were doing their job and I couldn't sneak my way into the conference despite having a ticket to the conference the day after.  So what do I do? I snuck into Alibaba instead, like any normal person.  In this episode, I talk about the things I saw while sneaking into the Alibaba HQ in Hangzhou, China. I learned how Alibaba's working conditions look like, how Alibaba grows their local brands, and how any mention of Jack Ma got erased from Alibaba.   Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction and Conference Mishap 01:27 - Visit to Alibaba's Headquarters 02:13 - Background on Alibaba and Chinese E-commerce 03:40 - Alibaba's Evolution and Market Dominance 05:32 - Taobao vs Amazon: The Largest E-commerce Platform 07:30 - Jack Ma's Influence and Controversy 09:25 - Inside Alibaba's Modern Headquarters 10:52 - Language and Leadership at Alibaba 12:47 - Jack Ma's Public Silence and Censorship 15:06 - Working Conditions in China 17:32 - Alibaba's E-commerce Incubator and Innovation 19:50 - Chinese E-commerce Brands and Innovation 21:40 - Cultural Insights and Social Media in China 23:07 - Elon Musk's Popularity in China Resources Mentioned Quiet Light Brokerage Alibaba Official Website Taobao Jack Ma Elon Musk As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested. Don't forget to leave us a review over on iTunes if you enjoy content like this. Happy selling and we'll talk to you soon!
E632: Amazon's Stock is Cratering - Here's What Happened
2026/02/16
In this episode, Dave explores the recent decline in Amazon's stock price, analyzing the company's quarterly results and e-commerce performance. Despite a drop in stock value, Amazon's e-commerce growth remains strong, with significant increases in third-party seller services and advertising revenue. The discussion also covers Amazon's strategic investments in AI and delivery speed, as well as the expansion of grocery services and the introduction of Amazon Hall to compete with other platforms. Takeaways Amazon's stock has dropped nearly 10% recently. Despite stock decline, e-commerce growth is strong at 8%. AWS revenue growth is at its highest in years. FBA fees are increasing, indicating more third-party seller activity. Amazon is focusing on same-day grocery delivery expansion. Rufus, Amazon's AI shopping assistant, is a key strategy. Amazon Hall aims to compete with low-cost Chinese platforms. Delivery speed improvements are crucial for customer satisfaction. Advertising revenue is becoming a significant part of Amazon's income. Overall e-commerce resilience is promising for sellers. Titles Amazon's Stock Plunge: What It Means for E-commerce Quarterly Insights: Amazon's Performance Breakdown  sound bites "Amazon stock is absolutely cratering." "AWS revenue was up 24%." "FBA fees were up 10% for the quarter." Chapters 00:00 Amazon's Stock Decline and Market Overview 03:05 Quarterly Results and E-commerce Performance 05:55 Capital Expenditures and AI Investments 08:46 E-commerce Growth and Third-Party Seller Services 12:01 Delivery Speed and Grocery Expansion 15:10 AI Shopping Assistants and Amazon's Strategy 17:58 Amazon Hall and Competitive Landscape
E631: The 3 Ways Steve Chou Grew His Business with AI
2026/02/02
In this episode, Steve talks about the 3 ways he grew his business with AI and how both Steve and Dave currently integrate AI in their e-commerce businesses to improve their Shopify stores. They talk about how AI can enhance on-site search, improve product recommendations, identify B2B customers, and maybe even improve customer support.  Steve Chou from My Wife Quit Her Job is back on the podcast!  He's on the podcast to talk about how he incorporates AI into his e-commerce business, how he created custom plugins specifically, and the projects he's working on to increase revenue in his business.  If you're looking into ways you can diversify outside of Amazon, this episode is for you. Sign up for Seller's Summit and catch Mike and Dave in person! You'll be part of an intimate Mastermind session, attending interesting talks with practical strategies and you get to catch up with Mike and Dave in person.   Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction to AI in E-commerce 02:59 - Understanding Traffic Sources and Sales 06:11 - Enhancing On-Site Search with AI 08:54 - Leveraging AI for Product Recommendations 11:53 - Identifying B2B Customers with AI 14:48 - The Future of Customer Support with AI 18:07 - AI's Impact on Amazon and E-commerce 21:08 - Conclusion and Seller Summit Details As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested. Don't forget to leave us a review over on iTunes if you enjoy content like this. Happy selling and we'll talk to you soon!
E630: The Winners of EcomCrew's 2025 Software Poll
2026/01/28
Dave discusses the results of Ecomcrew's 6th Annual Amazon Software Poll — emphasizing the biggest changes in the Amazon software landscape, including the closing down of many popular tools and the cutthroat industry of Amazon software services.  It's that time of the year again! In this episode, Dave will be revealing the winners (a couple of which you might not have expected) of last year's survey to find out the Best Amazon Seller Software across five categories: Product and Keyword Research PPC Management Reimbursement Services Repricing Tool Product Launch and Marketing On top of that, he'll be talking about why some categories have lost a significant amount of entries, the significant shifts in software usage among sellers, and what he's surprised to see in the results. Let's get right into it: Timestamps: 00:00 - The State of Amazon Software in 2025 02:47 - Poll Results: Key Insights and Trends 06:11 - The Rise and Fall of Software Tools 08:57 - Community Engagement and Membership Trends Don't forget to leave us a review over on iTunes if you enjoy content like this. Happy selling and we'll talk to you soon!  
E629: Warning! The Affiliate Marketers Are Coming to Ecom
2026/01/12
  Dave talks about his experience from attending Affiliate World Asia, and highlights how a lot of affiliate marketers are moving towards e-commerce due to the challenges in their industry. He talks about the differences between affiliate and e-commerce entrepreneurs, their odd advertising strategies, and some of the concerning things he saw at Affiliate World Asia.  Dave recently attended Affiliate World Asia in Bangkok back in December, and what he saw there was interesting, to say the least.  There were a lot of affiliate marketers recommending to move to e-commerce and a lot of suspicious and black hat strategies being peddled to the masses.  In this episode, he covers everything he observed while also having a run in with the Chinese Mafia.  Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to Affiliate World Asia 02:14 - Differences Between Affiliate and E-commerce Entrepreneurs 05:58 - Affiliate Marketing Strategies in E-commerce 09:51 - Innovative Advertising Techniques 12:17 - Ethical Concerns in Affiliate Marketing 14:36 - A Run-in with the Chinese Mafia As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested. Don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes if you enjoy our content. Thanks for listening! Until next time, happy selling!
E628: Don't Trust Your Suppliers? This Can Help
2025/12/29
In this episode, Mike Babbitt from Synovus is on the podcast to talk about the inherent risks associated with importing goods, and how you can reduce that risk especially when starting with new suppliers. He shares various strategies to illustrate these challenges, and the importance of understanding the international trade landscape.   Mike Babbitt, Synovus's Head of Trade and Supply Chain Finance Origination, is on the podcast today to talk about the various risks that importers (and exporters) are facing in 2025 and 2026 and how you as an importer can protect yourself when importing.    Mike also talks about the various trends he's observed over the years and how we're slowly moving to a "just right" inventory model.    If you're looking to expand your product portfolio with new suppliers, this episode may be for you.    Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction to International Trade and Sonovus Bank 02:56 - Understanding Risks in Importing and Exporting 05:55 - Mitigating Risks with Letters of Credit 09:02 - Practical Scenarios for Using Letters of Credit 11:55 - Exploring Trade Financing Mechanisms 14:57 - Current Trends in Importing and Exporting 17:54 - Reconfiguring Supply Chains and Reshoring 21:06 - Economic Outlook and Consumer Confidence 24:01 - Conclusion and Contact Information Mike, thanks for coming on the podcast. If you'd like to reach out to Mike, you can check him out on his LinkedIn page here.   As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested.   Don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes if you enjoy our content.   Thanks for listening!   Until next time, happy selling!
E627: Big Changes in Amazon Software this Year
2025/12/17
Amazon software has changed a lot recently. AI tools, reimbursement services, and product launch software have all been affected in the past year with Amazon suddenly introducing their own tools and undercutting these services.  Grab a chance to win an annual membership to Ecomcrew Premium by voting for your favorite Amazon software tools here!   The Big Takeaway Amazon software has gone through some massive changes this year. Helium 10's affiliate program has eliminated lifetime commissions. Jungle Scout has shifted focus to enterprise customers. Amazon's new reimbursement policies have greatly affected third-party reimbursement services. Chinese software tools are becoming more competitive in the market. AI integration in Amazon tools is still limited. With growing competition, the software space is becoming commoditized with lower prices. There is also a growing trend of rebate services returning to the market. Timestamps 00:00 - The State of Amazon Software in 2025 05:00 - Helium 10's Affiliate Program Changes 10:04 - Jungle Scout's Shift to Enterprise 15:06 - Amazon's New Reimbursement Policies 16:41 - The Rise of Chinese Software Tools As always, if you have any questions or anything that you need help with, leave a comment down below if you're interested. Don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes if you enjoy our content. Thanks for listening! Until next time, happy selling!

Podcast reviews

Read The Ecomcrew Ecommerce Podcast podcast reviews


4.5 out of 5
297 reviews
★★★★★
corys store 2024/01/15
Great show
Love how honest and real these guys are. Super helpful as a fellow business owner.
★☆☆☆☆
CRR1988 2024/01/20
Racist garbage.
Serial entrepreneurs should be trusted as much as serial killers.
★★★★★
Lsufrat 2022/11/10
Ecomcrew Podcast never disappoints
Ecomcrew has been our saving grace. The insights learned from this podcast are a huge part of how we have survived COVID and the inflationary recessio...
★★★★★
artcut 2022/03/06
Leave Women Owned Businesses Alone!
As an owner of a local community yarn store, my heart sank once again when I heard about knitting.com. Women/minority owned businesses are hard enough...
★☆☆☆☆
DaveKha 2022/07/13
Arrogant Snakeoil Salesman
Wouldn’t trust advice from these folks. Sound pretentious and the knitting community will not let you succeed
★☆☆☆☆
Maude Caan 2022/04/08
Dinosaurs
Same old MBA regurgitation. Old thinking. Super dull. Can only promote their value by devaluing others. Not worth the time.
★★☆☆☆
crafty commuter 2022/02/26
I wouldn’t pay for their advice
I recently listened to episode 433 (the knitting dot com episode) and it is clear to me that these guys are mostly just smoke and mirrors. They claim ...
★☆☆☆☆
laloca 2022/02/26
what a laughable bunch of mansplainers
knitting.com? y’all paid HOW MUCH for it? because you didn’t bother actually RESEARCHING the fiber arts community? daaaaamn. i want some of that sweet...
★☆☆☆☆
PattyJL 2022/02/25
Sloppy research, incorrect statistical analysis
Based on their laughable podcast about Knitting, I can see these “business men“ use incredibly faulty logic. Their sloppy competitive analysis, incomp...
★☆☆☆☆
oldkro 2022/02/25
Good luck!
I just listened to the knitting.com episode and I can tell you right now, the knitting world will not be very welcoming to you two knuckleheads.
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