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This episode discusses four concepts that serve as theoretical foundations for Mothers on the Frontline's work.

In this episode, we discuss the origin of Mothers on the Frontline.

Origin story of Mothers on the Frontline

In this episode, we will discuss the Third Principle of the Children’s Mental Health Justice Framework: The lived experiences of children, caregivers, families, and communities matter.

This episode is a deeper dive into the second principle of the Children's Mental Health Justice Framework: Children's Mental Health Justice and Caregiver Justice are mutually dependent.

In this episode, we discuss the first principle of the Children's Mental Health Justice Framework: Children's mental illness, injury, and harms are real and deserving of care.

In this episode, we discuss the Children’s Mental Health Justice (CHMJ) Framework, what it is, and why it is important. We provide an overview of the three CMHJ principles.

Note: This interview was recorded in 2018. Transcription: [music] Welcome to the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast. Mothers on the Frontline is a nonprofit organization, founded and run by mothers of children with mental illness to promote caregiver healing and children’s mental health justice through storytelling. Our vision is a world in which mental health is destigmatized, respected, and prioritized as an integral part of the overall health of individuals, families, and communities. In this episode we hear from Dianne Thacker, a social worker by profession, a stay-at-home mom by choice, and someone who is dedicated to helping other families find the resources they need to help their children. Interviewer: So, hello. Thank you for being with us today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself. Before or outside of mothering, who are you? What do you love to do? What are your passions? Diane Thacker: Okay. I’m Diane Thacker. I’m a social worker by profession. A stay-at-home mom by choice. I dubbed myself as a resource specialist. Later in the game I’m 50 years old and I am ageless. Interviewer: I love that. Diane: Yeah. I don’t get in to, “Oh my gosh. I’m gonna be old now.” I celebrate birthdays because you can. No matter the glow on the cake. Interviewer: That’s right. Diane: Okay. I love to read books. But I have a kind of a weird quirk about it. I start reading some of the end pages first. Interviewer: Oh, do you? You like to know what’s coming? Diane: Yeah. Or to kind of see what the outcome’s going to be. Because then if I get hooked in, then I could go back to and start reading it. Otherwise it’s boring and I’m not going to read it. And then it takes like maybe two or three days just to get it done. Interviewer: Right. Diane: Okay. I like to do genealogy. Although that wasn’t a bug issue when I begin with. For those genealogist who’d go, “I know. I know the bug.” It became a-  let’s see and if I call that, an assignment. When I was fourteen and I was in my great aunt’s house in a small town called Zearing, Iowa. She asked me one day, and I’m just like, well maybe I was like eleven years old, if I knew who my family was. And of course I knew my mom’s side because that was all we knew. And I didn’t understand the question as to why she was asking me that. So I’m like,”Why?” And she’s, “Well because, you know I’m working on my family tree here.” And I’m like, “Oh, wow.” She has got a big table with all of her books and the papers. And I’m looking at her bay- this big wave bay window and I’m like, “I wish I could be outside now.” But I couldn’t. So we were you know hanging out and she says, “Well, come here Diane. Come here.” So we started looking at her stuff and I was kind of like, “Wow.” And she started connecting the dots. And for me now, connecting the dots is very important. It doesn’t always happen but when you look back at your life and you see things happening, “Oh wow that’s why that happened” and will get to that later. So then just about that time, I was doing a homework assignment. So that kind of fell into place. There is your dot. One of your dots. And so I said well- both side of your family. So in this case, we didn’t know that much about my dad’s side. My dad had died when I was six and a half. Interviewer: You were young. Diane: Yes, I was. But I did know him and I have memories of him. He was very determined. He dealt with- he had some health issues of his own. But he was very determined, very passionate. He knew-he wrote poetry, which is what I do now. It was just me and my brother and my mom. I don’t know. And he liked putting things together with his hands- fences and stuff. And he also cared for small animals. Interviewer: Oh, nice. Diane: Yeah. I do remember one day he was around, but I remember sitting outside of my house and there was what appeared to be a woman who was homeless. And I really felt the need that I needed to go and give her something but my mom was like, “We don’t know that person.” But there was that social worker helping persona in myself that was coming out early. I lived in the neighborhood where it was deemed unsafe. But to me it was like, no there was nothing unsafe here. My friends are here. I still have- I have a friend who, I’ve known her for, is that fifty years old now? Seven. What is that? That say seven? Forty three years old? For forty three years, yeah. Interviewer: That’s great. Diane: Yeah. I don’t know. We did- we went everywhere together. Got lost together. Got in trouble together. [laughter] For a month together. Yeah. Interviewer: Beautiful. Diane: Yeah. So then, one day an event happens when you have to move out of your neighborhood. So you move from your one location to another. At the time, we’re like, I don’t understand why. But going back, you look at the little- okay. So that put me into a parochial school versus public school. And yes, there are differences there. And maybe if I’m not connecting the dots, it made me understand when I have my kiddos now the differences of that. So I went to [appeal] school up until high school. And then a Catholic school. And then into college at Grandview. And I really didn’t know, you know, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” And I’m like, I have no idea. But again I knew that I had that part of me that wanted to help. And so I took a BA in Human Services. I would love to say that my professors were all like black and white. And it’s what you’re going to do when you get out of here. No, it wasn’t like that. He would tell stories about his world and experiences. And I wouldn’t understand why that had to do with the material in the book. But as I got older and began to understand, social work is not like that. It’s not like wrote down on a book. You may learn it but you’ve got to go outside the box, to live it. Interviewer: A little messier. [laughter] Diane: A little bit oh yeah. Okay. And then when you’re first learning the ropes of how to do that, I got my first- well, I was a nanny. Right before my work at The Boys and Girls Club, but as a nanny too. So that gave me the ability- small, to work with somebody and their family. And to bring the experiences that I had there. So I did that for a couple of years. And then I worked at one of the facilities here in town, as a youth service worker. I worked with offenders. Interviewer: Wow. Diane: Yeah. Interviewer: So you’ve really- from working with young people. Diane: Yes. And main families for- Interviewer: And families. You’re whole life, really. Diane: Yeah. Right. And in the mix of that I worked at one of the nursing homes. I was a receptionist, but I still had to know what was happening on the floor. Making sure that they weren’t going to walk out the door. Beginning, you know, if one of the residents came into me and say, “Hey I really want to talk.” To be empathetic person to them. To feel them out to see if they needed anything at that time. Be able to be on call when the flood came, ’cause that was during the time when the flood of 1993 came through. Interviewer: Oh, wow. Diane: Yeah. And I couldn’t go home that night. And the bridge had shifted. So they asked me if I knew how- the staff there at the receptionist asked me if I knew how to do a six-phone- phone line. No, not at that time. But I had learned really quick how. And again the dots came together because I got a phone call from a- she used to be a telephone operator. And she was looking for a way to help. And she says I’m like you- just one second. Can she- yes, she can come. And so she was able to come and take care of that phone line. But if I didn’t answer that phone, at the time, we wouldn’t have that connection to the- yeah. Interviewer: So you really have been helping people all along from the whole spectrum. Geriatric, youth offenders, families. Really everybody. Diane: I did some volunteer stuff. I would do hospitals a little bit. I didn’t- I went for the training. And I didn’t really have to use it until, well, a friend of mine went. So I then, I was able to understand the world a little bit more. If I had gone in there cold, I wouldn’t have been able to feel what to do and how to respectfully walk in. Interviewer: Absolutely. So yeah. Diane: Let’s see, so my life was pretty much, yes, social work filled. Up until about 2003. We had been- I had gotten married. And he- he’s a jack of all trades. He was a fireman, ambulance driver. You name it and he’s done it, corrections and all that. He was somebody that your mom would go, “hmm.” But I was like, yes, I like him. And that’s all the way it go- this one’s going to be that way. And I just knew. But I had- we hadn’t gotten married right a way. It was we waited for 4 years. I wanted to finish college and I wanted him to figure out what he wanted to really do. And then go from there, yeah. So we got married and we were told that we wouldn’t be able to have babies. Interviewer: Oh my, that’s hard. Diane: Yeah. That is hard. And I know there’s a few of us out there who- when I say that, well yes. But been there done it. And it’s- it’s kind of hard to hear. Especially if you- Interviewer: It has to be. Diane: Yes. Especially if you wanted to have them. So we’re like well. And there’s that no. I’m like, well, no-no-no-no. Interviewer: You don’t like no. Diane: No. Well there’s no for a reason. You know is it going to hurt you, is it going to be something you can’t do yet. Okay. But if there’s like this, well- maybe. But I’m like researching. Because that’s what I do too, I’m a resource specialist. And I try to find those ways to do it. Now, in my particular world, it comes down to my faith. My spiritual direction. Well my- I’m...

This episode of the Conversations Between Friends series was recorded June 29, 2020.

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In this episode we discuss: what it means to be an allythe difference between performative and authentic allyshiphow allyship differs from friendship and being a coalition partnerstigma jumping vs intersectional activism and advocacyTerms: Allyship – An active, consistent, and arduous practice of unlearning and re-evaluating, in which a person in a position of privilege and power seeks to operate in solidarity with a marginalized group and works to ensure equality, opportunity and inclusion for everyone. (Thank you to Sonya, Sophie, Gigi and Lilah – students in Dionne Bensonsmith’s “Introduction to Feminism, Gender, and Sexuality” Class in the Fall 2019 at Scripps College – for this definition.) Intersectionality – A framework for understanding the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage. (This term was coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989.) Stigma-Jumping – Avoiding association with potential allies or coalition partners to avoid their stigma being attached to your cause, organization or person. Stigma jumping is a barrier to intersectional activism and advocacy and therefore neglects the most vulnerable. (This term was coined by Tammy Nyden in 2017.) Resources: Allyship (Definitions): Rochester Racial Justice Toolkit “What is Allyship?”” Michelle Kim “Allyship (& Accomplice): The What, the Why, and the How” Seventeen Magazine “What is Performative Allyship?” Teaching Tolerance “Ally or Accomplice: The Language of Activism” On Privilege and Power University of San Francisco, Gleeson Library “White Privilege Resource Guide” How to be an Ally (start here and by all means, do not stop): The Anti-Oppression Network “Allyship” Amélie Lamont “Guide to Allyship” Jamie Utt  “So You Call Yourself an Ally: 10 Things All ‘Allies’ Need to Know” Chris Scot Cole “3 Things Not To Do When Someone Discloses Their Invisible Disability”

In this episode we have a conversation about defunding the police: what it means, what it doesn’t mean, and how the phrase raises different emotions in people depending on their personal experiences with the police and racism.How decades of consistent and pervasive defunding of community programming, healthcare, and education has harmed communities. We focus on the effects for children with disabilities.School Resource officers and police brutality in the schools that specifically targets black and brown children and children with disabilities.How policy runs on narratives, not statistics. We discuss and challenge narratives about “bad neighborhoods” and “bad children” that are steeped in anti-black racism, anti-indigeneity, and ableism and have fueled bad policy for decades.For more information about this topic: Defunding the police: Democracy NOW!:  “Defund the Police: Linda Sarsour & Mychal Denzel Smith on What Meaningful Change Would Look Like” USA Today “What does ‘defund the police’ mean and why some say ‘reform’ is not enough” Black Lives Matter Los Angeles Times “Eliminate school police, L.A. teachers union leaders say” Reading Towward Abolition: A Reading List on Policing, Rebellion, and the Criminalization of Blackness by the Abusable Past. Resources for teaching and talking about racism: EdJustice: “Black Lives Matter at School – Resources” Watson, Dyan, Jesse Hagopian, and Wayne Au. Teaching for Black Lives. , 2018. Print. The Black Lives Matter Syllabus The School to Prison Pipeline: Bullies in Blue: The Problem with School Policing [infographic] by the ACLU Cops and No Counselors: How the Lack of School Mental Health is Harming Students by the ACLU ** The image above was drawn by Akim, a 10 year African American boy expressing his feelings in this current moment of police brutality, racism, and Covid-19.

In this episode, the founders of Mothers on the Frontline discuss grief, racial privilege, policing, and the performativity of emotion. Families and communities are grieving right now. We are grieving the deaths of over 100,000 Americans to Covid-19, which has disproportionately affected Black and Brown communities. We are grieving ongoing and countless losses of African-American Women, Men, and non-binary folk, children to elders, to institutional racism, particularly by the very structures that should be protecting them, including the police. Many parents are grieving the loss of the veneer of safety they once felt for themselves and their black and brown children in the community and in their very homes. Many white allies see the collective grief in the Black community and the pain in the eyes of their Black friends. They want to be helpful, but often fail to recognize their own emotional privilege. We examine how the centering and privileging of white emotion can result in dysfunctional empathy, as well as the weaponization of white lady tears.   Today’s conversation challenges us to think about how the expression of emotion is learned and responded to very differently between White and Black women and how white emotional privilege in turn affects social narratives, resulting in particular interactions between children, police, and schools which are detrimental to children’s mental health. If you are interested in learning more about some of the topics mentioned in this podcast we suggest the following: For information on addressing racism and racist thinking in your personal relationships: Seed the Way “Interrupting Bias: Calling In vs. Calling Out” A good guide on ACEs and Toxic Stress: Harvard University: Center on the Developing Child “ACEs and Toxic Stress: Frequently Asked Questions” Mentioned in the Podcast: DiAngelo, Robin J., White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk about Racism. United States, Beacon Press, 2018. National Domestic Workers Alliance

Kate is a mother from Iowa whose children have autism, anxiety, ADHD, sensory processing disorder and prosopagnosia. In this episode, she discusses what it was like when her son was first diagnosed, adjusting each year to new teachers, and what it is like to go through the ups and downs of parenting children who are ‘differently wired’. Transcription [music] Welcome to the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast, episode 28. Mothers on the Frontline is a nonprofit organization, founded and run by mothers of children with mental illness to promote caregiver healing and children’s mental health justice through storytelling. Our vision is a world in which mental health is destigmatized, respected, and prioritized as an integral part of the overall health of individuals, families, and communities. In this episode, we hear from Kate, a mother from Iowa whose children have autism, anxiety, ADHD, sensory processing disorder and prosopagnosia. Tammy: So hello, tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, who are you, what do you love, what do you love to do? Kate: I love yoga. I’m a very fanatic yogi and what has happened with my son has really put me in touch with yoga and with mindfulness so I really like to do that. I like to walk, I like to do gardening and I just, overall, I’m a very positive person, and I like to just have fun. Tammy: Well that’s wonderful, it’s wonderful. So I want you to pretend you’re talking to parents. What do you want them to know about your experiences? What can you share that may be helpful for them to know? Kate: So in 2014, my son was officially diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder ODD and anxiety, and we have been going through a struggle which started actually with him in preschool. Where we had seen some of the signs but we weren’t quite sure. He also has allergies, and because of that, he had to be on steroids sometimes. So it was very hard to figure out what is normal two to three-year-old behavior, what is induced by being on steroids and what is behavior that is cause for concern. And at that time too when I would be talking to my parents-in-law, often they would say like, well, you know your husband was just the same when he was little. But then after a while, we were really starting to struggle. It was hard for us sometimes to enjoy weekends. Where you’re looking forward to Monday because it’s so draining, emotionally draining to be around your little guy. And there comes a huge guilt complex with that because you feel like it’s your fault, you’re not doing something right. And after a while, my husband and I, we were just like, we need help. And at the time he was in daycare which also had a preschool tied to it. They were very open to working with us, so we, they said like, we’ll have somebody from Grant Wood AEA come in, evaluate, and then we’ll just see what happens. We did that. There was some cause for concern and then we also, on our own reached out to psychologist and start working with her. And then in 2014, by the year before he went to kindergarten, he got officially diagnosed. So which was for us, a lot of things sort of all the puzzle pieces start to come together. And we were just relieved in a way. But then, on the other hand, it’s like there’s a huge learning curve. Because now it’s like, I know what it is, but what do I need to know? So… Tammy: Right. So, for parents who are out there who are starting their journey, they haven’t had the diagnosis yet or ones that have just got it. Like what could you talk about in terms of barriers that you have faced that had been hard for you to get your child the help he needs? Kate: Personally for myself, I think I was the biggest barrier because sometimes you’re in denial and you think like oh it’s just the age. It will be okay. This will, well, will resolve itself down the line but it’s not. So it just, once you come to that realization and also give yourself a break. I think sometimes as parents, we all try to do a really good job but we’re only humans too but we’re really hard on ourselves. And a lot with mental illness diagnosis, there’s a lot of shame I think sometimes connected to it as well. Tammy: Absolutely. Kate: So people or parents it holds them back at that shame but it’s okay to ask for help. Tammy: Absolutely. Kate: And I think that sometimes that was a barrier for myself. Like I’m always being very independent. I’m a go-getter. I just get things done myself. But there was a point that I reached that I was like I don’t want to live like this. This is not normal. If I’m doing something wrong I need help and I need somebody to let me know, how I need to adjust my parenting style because I want to enjoy the time I spent together with my little guy. Tammy: You brought up several things that are really important. I mean one is it’s really confusing and you don’t get to have a control. You have a kid, you don’t get to have a scientific control and say okay what really is causing this. Let’s change some variables. No, and especially for those of us who, it’s our only or first child. It can even be, we don’t know what normal is and it’s such a wide range. So it’s hard to know if this is neurotypical development or it’s something we should pay attention to. Is it just quirky or is it something that’s problematic that they need help with. So that’s just hard to know. You also brought up another element which is the shame, right? And so asking for help and the third thing is if your child, there’s something going on, we often have to adapt. So it isn’t that our parenting is wrong, its our parenting is wrong for the child with this neurology. Katie: Exactly. Tammy: So there’s no one right way to parent. It depends on the child’s needs. I love that you brought up all that. I just wanted to go back. Oh, yes, I think that’s a really important for us trying to go through it. It gets all mingled up. So I love that.  Kate: And then there was what I had to like I was going by how I was raised by my mom and dad, and I think they did a superb job, but I was a very easy kid. I will always, I listened, I didn’t fuss a lot and I was also raised and I think a lot of people of our generation are raised like that. If mom and dad ask you something, you do it and that was the hardest for me. Like why is my kid not listening to me? And because of his ODD diagnosis, he’s not as much defiant towards the dad but it’s more towards me. Which is weird too because they always say like they will be less defiant to the authoritative person in the relationship but that’s actually me [laughs] who’s the one that [inaudible]. He’s like yeah if go to mommy and asked her that, I’m not going to get away with that. I’ll just go to dad. [laughs] Tammy: [laughs] You know but that’s another thing. Just like all kids and all human beings they are different with different people and it can be really, it can hurt our feelings. Like it can be really hard when we’re the ones seeing the symptoms, right? And so that can be really hard and often it could be because we’re the parent they feel safe with or the person they feel safe with in terms of they know they’re not going to not love me if I act up. As opposed to like a stranger, a teacher or something like that. They might hold it in more or something. Yeah. No. It’s really hard. So, same thing. Thinking about parents out there, what has worked really well in getting help for your child? What had been some successes or things you’re like, thank goodness that that happened or is available or–? Kate: The number one thing for me was first, I had to change myself before I was able to help my son. I had to let go of control. I had to let go of worrying and that goes often with control because you want to know, oh, what’s going to happen then? Well, how is this journey going to be? Is it always going to be like this? And after a while, I just let go of all of that. I’d lived day by day. I take one day at a time. If we sometimes have a bad day, I always say, tomorrow is another day and we start with a clean slate. And I tell my son that as well. For myself too, I let go of emotions because I had such an emotional kid, and he still is but we’ve really worked hard with him on helping gauge his emotions better or that he’s just more aware of them and then he will be able to stop himself. And I think sometimes maturity helps with it as well. But at the time when we were struggling, I would always get like asking put your shoes on. It was like World War III. And it’s the battle you engage and you get worked up and you get upset and you start yelling, which I hate to do or you hear yourself the whole time just saying no, no, you can’t do this because he’s like all over the place. That for me was just letting go of that control and just being aware of that. Like I’m not going to go invest my emotions in that. I’m going to be very patient. I’m just going to take a step back and stay calm. And that has really helped like it’s not always successful. Tammy: It’s not easy.  Kate: Sometimes I have to dig really, really, really deep or I’m thinking like, oh, I really want to do this or this and this right now but no, I don’t look good in orange so I’m not going to do that. But then again, that helps me just sometimes to get through it because the sense of humor. Just being aware of like this is a very tough situation and I’m just trying to do my best. And sometimes I can’t do that and I walk away. And I give myself that break then I’m just like I can’t handle this. I just walk away and it’s okay.  Tammy: It’s not only okay it’s great modeling for your son.  Kate: I try to. Yeah. Tammy: And it’s really important for you and me

[music] Welcome to Mothers on the Frontline Podcast. Today, as part of our Just Ask Mom Series,we listen to a Mom of a 9 year old diagnosed with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Anxiety in 2014. [music] Tammy: Tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, who are you, what do you love, what do you love to do? Mom: I love yoga. I’m a very fanatic yogi and what has happened with my son has really put me in touch with yoga and with mindfulness so I really like to do that. I like to walk, I like to do gardening and I just overall, am a very positive person, and I like to just have fun. Tammy: Well that’s wonderful, it’s wonderful. So I want you to pretend you’re talking to parents. What do you want them to know about your experiences? What can you share that may be helpful for them to know? Mom: So in 2014, my son was officially diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder ODD and anxiety, and we have been going through a struggle which started actually with him in preschool. Where we had seen some of the signs but we weren’t quite sure.He also has allergies, and because of that, he had to be on steroids sometimes.So it was very hard to figure out what is normal to 3-year-old behavior, what is induced by being on steroids and what is behavior that is cause for concern.And at that time too when I would be talking to my parents-in-law, often they would say like, well, you know your husband was just the same when he was little. But then after a while, we were really starting to struggle. It was hard for us sometimes to enjoy weekends. Where you’re looking forward to Monday because it’s so draining, emotionally draining to be around your little guy.And there comes a huge guilt complex with that because you feel like it’s your fault, you’re not doing something right. And after a while, my husband and I,we were just like, we need help. And at the time he was in daycare which also had a preschool tied to it. They were very open to working with us, so we, theysaid like, we’ll have somebody from the AEA [Area Education Agency] come in, evaluate, and then we’ll just see what happens. We did that. There was some cause for concern and then we also, on our own reached out to psychologist and start working with her. And then in 2014, by the year before he went to kindergarten, he got officially diagnosed. So which was for us, a lot of things sort of all the puzzle pieces start to come together. And we were just relieved in a way. But then, on the other hand, it’s like there’s a huge learning curve. Because now it’s like, I know what it is, but what do I need to know? So… Tammy: Right. So, for parents who are out there who are starting their journey, they haven’t had the diagnosis yet or ones that have just got it. Like what could you talk about in terms of barriers that you have faced that had been hard for you to get your child the help he needs? Mom: Personally for myself, I think I was the biggest barrier because sometimes you’re in denial and you think like oh it’s just the age. It will be okay. This will, well, will resolve itself down the line but it’s not. So it just, once you come to that realization and also give yourself a break. I think sometimes as parents,we all try to do a really good job but we’re only humans too but we’re really hard on ourselves. And a lot with mental illness diagnosis, there’s a lot of shame I think sometimes connected to it as well. Tammy: Absolutely. Mom:So people or parents it holds them back at that shame but it’s okay to ask for help. Tammy: Absolutely. Mom: And I think that sometimes that was a barrier for myself. Like I’m always being very independent. I’m a go-getter. I just get things done myself. But there was a point that I reach that I was like I don’t want to live like this. This is not normal. If I’m doing something wrong I need help and I need somebody to let me know, how I need to adjust my parenting style because I want to enjoy the time I spent together with my little guy. Tammy: You brought up several things that are really important. I mean one is it’s really confusing and you don’t get to have a control. You have a kid, you don’t get to have a scientific control and say okay what really is causing this. Let’s change some variables.No, and especially for those of us who, it’s our only or first child. It can even be, we don’t know what normal is and it’s such a wide range. So it’s hard to know if this is neurotypical development or it’s something we should pay attention to. Is it just quirky or is it something that’s problematic that they need help with. So that’s just hard to know. You also brought up another element which is the shame, right? And so asking for help and the third thing is if your child, there’s something going on, we often have to adapt. So it isn’t that our parenting is wrong, it’s our parenting is wrong for the child with this neurology. Mom: Exactly. Tammy: So there’s no one right way to parent. It depends on the child’s needs. I love that you brought up all that. I just wanted to go back over that because I think that’s a really important for us trying to go through it. It gets all mingled up. So I love that.  Mom: And that was what I had too. I was going by how I was raised by my mom and dad, and I think they did a superb job, but I was a very easy kid. I will always, I listened, I didn’t fuss a lot and I was also raised and I think a lot of people of our generation are raised like that. If mom and dad ask you something, you do it and that was the hardest for me. Like why is my kid not listening to me? And because of his ODD diagnosis, he’s not as much defiant towards the dad but it’s more towards me.Which is weird too because they always say like they will be less defiant to the authoritative person in the relationship but that’s actually me [laughs] who’s the one that [inaudible]. He’s like yeah if go to mommy and asked her that, I’m not going to get away with that. I’ll just go to dad. [laughs] Tammy: [laughs] You know but that’s another thing. Just like all kids and all human beings they are different with different people and it can be really, it can hurt our feelings.Like it can be really hard when we’re the ones seeing the symptoms, right? And so that can be really hard and often it could be because we’re the parent they feel safe with or the person they feel safe with in terms of they know they’re not going to not love me if I act up. As opposed to like a stranger, a teacher or something like that. They might hold it in more or something. Yeah. No. It’s really hard. So, same thing. Thinking about parents out there, what has worked really well in getting help for your child? What had been some successes or things you’re like, thank goodness that that happened or is available or–? Mom: The number one thing for me was first, I had to change myself before I was able to help my son. I had to let goof control. I had to let go of worrying and that goes often with control because you want to know, oh, what’s going to happen then? Well, how is this journey going to be? Is it always going to be like this? And after a while, I just let go of all of that. I’d lived day by day. I take one day at a time. If we sometimes have a bad day, I always say, tomorrow is another day and we start with a clean slate. And I tell my son that as well. For myself too, I let go of emotions because I had such an emotional kid, and he still is but we’ve really worked hard with him on helping gauge his emotions better or that he’s just more aware of them and then he will be able to stop himself. And I think sometimes maturity helps with it as well. But at the time when we were struggling, I would always get like asking put your shoes on. It was like World War III. And it’s the battle you engage and you get worked up and you get upset and you start yelling which I hate to do or you hear yourself the whole time just saying no, no, you can’t do this because he’s like all over the place.That for me was just letting go of that control and just being aware of that.Like I’m not going to go invest my emotions in that. I’m going to be very patient. I’m just going to take a step back and stay calm. And that has really helped like it’s not always successful. Tammy: It’s not easy.  Mom: Sometimes I have to dig really,really, really deep or I’m thinking like, oh, I really want to do this or this and this right now but no, I don’t look good in orange so I’m not going to do that. But then again, that helps me just sometimes to get through it because the sense of humor. Just being aware of like this is a very tough situation and I’m just trying to do my best. And sometimes I can’t do that and I walk away.And I give myself that break then I’m just like I can’t handle this. I just walk away and it’s okay.  Tammy: It’s not only okay it’s great modeling for your son.  Mom: I try to. Yeah. Tammy: And it’s really important for you and me and all mothers and caregivers. It’s wonderful that you’re doing that. But it’s hard.  Mom: It is hard. It is extremely hard and sometimes you feel like I am on top of the world, I got this down, I like my new parenting style, I become calmer, more patient, I don’t let my emotions get a hold of me that much anymore and other days you’re just like oh,I suck at this.  Tammy: Right now, it sounds like you’re talking about when it was really rough, but even when things are going well, we recognize, they change from moment to moment and so we like to ask right now, do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water, where are you at right now? Mom: I feel like I’m swimming but I also know due to his ADHD and his ODD, especially at t