Advertise on podcast: Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (twin brothers in their 20s, from Mesa Arizona, brother Sam died by suicide 16 while they were missionaries) talk about their work: * Being mental health advocates and fitness coaches to help others find hope and end shame * Helping those who are suicidal find hope and how Sam tied his identity to perfectionism * Normalizing honest and vulnerable discussions—how these are healthy male attributes * Coping with grief—how they turned to overeating and pornography use—how they learned to heal through Jesus and therapy * How shame dies in opening up and vulnerability * Their work to support the LGBTQ community * What we can do in our families and church communities to make it safer for suicidal folks to open up Jake and Joe are on a mission to bring people closer to Christ, reduce shame, role-model vulnerability, and help others find hope. I am deeply moved by and supportive of their work. They inspire me. Please listen/share this episode and contact with their social media platforms (see below). And (as mentioned in the podcast) if you are in a position to help them set up a 501c non-profit (or help an any way you feel inspired) please reach out to them. I feel impressed their work is just beginning in our community. Thank you, Jake and Joe, for all your great work. Honored to have you on the show. Links: Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit Earlier episode 811: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-811-jake-and-joe-sharp-lost-brother-sam-to/id1347971725?i=1000691741343 Richard Ostler Substack on masturbation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-215364913

My friend Pam Shepherd, a communications professional at George Mason University and a sixth-generation Latter-day Saint, joins us to share some of her journey growing up Mormon while not always feeling like she fit the traditional Mormon mold. Pam talks about navigating that experience at BYU and later as a young single adult in the Washington, DC area. She also discusses her desire to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women (ages 18-29) on a variety of issues. That curiosity led to a research project for which she is currently seeking anonymous survey participants (see show notes for details). Thank you, Pam, for sharing both your personal story and the motivation behind this important research. Your experiences navigating life both within and outside traditional Mormon expectations give you a unique perspective as you seek to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women. I appreciate your willingness to undertake this work and contribute meaningful data to an area where little research currently exists. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast. If you are a Gen Z LDS woman, I encourage you to fill out Pam’s survey. Survey: https://gmu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eE9q7qaZAsdbAHA Email: [email protected] Instagram: @pammyshep

My friend Parker Vassau (married father of 3, business owner—marketing and pest control, longtime friend) joins us to share his story: Unexpected illness at age 14—tumor, complications, and not being able to eat for four months Principles to serve a successful mission—Parker knows this well after serving in Bulgaria. Not being defined by his ACT score of 16 Vision a BYU teacher have game him—acting on that vision—hard work and sacrifice to make it happen Supporting the many young men that are part of his businesses including being a safe place Starting his podcast called “The Committed Man” (see show notes) Insightful comments about mental health Powerful tribute to his step-father Darl McBride and our dear family friend (who died in Sept 2024 of ALS) Thank you my friend Parker for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help and build others. You inspire me. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with Parker’s podcast. Links: The Committed Man podcast: www.committedman.com Parker on IG: @parker.vassau

Matt Mosman (friend from BYU MBA school, prior senior vice president of development at Oracle, currently general parter of venture capital firm in Salt Lake, well known expert on mergers and acquisitions), joins us to share the story of being called as the High Councilor over the Bay Ward in San Francisco and all they did to help the gay men and women feel welcome at Church. Those efforts including calling an “openly gay man” Mitch Maynes into the Bishopric as the executive secretary and sending a letter out to all ward members they are welcome and won’t be excommunicated for showing up at Church. Matt talks about speaking throughout the Stake on better supporting LGBTQ members and how he handed “the heat his took” for his advocacy. He talks about how God created His queer children as intended and we should look at them as beloved children of Heavenly Parents. Matt wrote a powerful essay called “How to Read Your Religion’s Foundational Texts” (see show notes) where he powerfully shares his feelings on: * Jesus’s strongest condemnation was for the Pharisees—and how that applies today * The parable of the Good Samaritan—best summary I’ve ever read Further, Matt is completely clear about why he stays in the Church and how he feels about where the Church is with its LGBTQ members: “What I mean by "cafeteria Christian" is this: a person who accepts large portions of their tradition's teaching while consciously declining others. I am one of these people. I am a committed member of my own denomination. I believe deeply in its foundational claims. I try to live according to its principles. Yet there are positions my church holds on certain matters — including, specifically, the treatment of LGBTQ members — where I have concluded, after long and prayerful consideration, that my tradition is simply wrong. I hold that view while remaining within the tradition, because I understand my faith to be larger than any single institutional position.” One of Matt’s gifts is being bold and clear—and he uses that gift to talk about how to better support our LGBT friends. Matt—who is politically left—also talks about speaking up to share how he feels even if it is a minority position. Matt shares his son coming out as gay several years after Matt’s High Council assignment and how that was a non-event—as a closest youth he already knew his Dad loved him as he saw-first hand his Dad’s advocacy—super powerful parenting experience for us all to consider. Thank you, Matt, for being on the podcast and all you do to help create Zion by helpful everyone feel welcome, loved and needed. You are a good man. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this powerful episode. Links: Matt’s essay: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hd1utwih1h1qagx2eg0qn/How-to-Read-Your-Religion-s-Foundational-Texts-by-Matt-Mosman.pdf?rlkey=81quise3my3vii3brjri5jz74&dl=0

My friend Doug Staker (father of three, Master of Architecture from UCLA, Principal Architect with Squaremoon Studio, lives in Salt Lake City) joins us to share the story of the genesis of Sanctuary—a physical structure representing safely/love/acceptance that was first part of Utah Pride in 2018. Doug talks about his gay brother Thomas and becoming curious and going on a trip where he asked, “tell me about your life”. Doug talks about how this transformed his perspective about queer people and felt spiritually called to ally and use his creative and architecture expertise. This spiritual impression led to the creation of sanctuary that has been part of Utah Pride four different times. Doug talks about being at the Encircle gala and connecting with Autumn McAlpin (film producer, mother of two queer children) which led to the creation of Sanctuary—a full length powerful documentary film about LGBTQ Latter-day Saints (see show notes on how to watch/share this must-see film). Doug talks about two of his children coming out as queer (trans and bi-sexual) and his journey to love and accept them—super powerful. Thank you, Doug, for being on the podcast and sharing your remarkable story of using your God given talents to love and support our queer friends. Thanks for following your spiritual impressions to walk into this space and make a difference. Thank you, Autumn McAlpin, and Vienna Boyes (all the entire team) for your efforts to direct, produce and release this deeply moving documentary—I was so moved watching it a few months ago. I invite everyone to listen to Doug’s podcast and watch/share Sanctuary. Links: Doug’s Sanctuary project website: https://www.squaremoon.art/ Sanctuary Documentary: https://sanctuarydoc.com/

My friend Dan Hamby (married father of four) joins us to share his super powerful story of meeting with and ultimately forgiving the man who murdered his father Everett when Dan was 7 years old. Dan talks he wasn’t looking to connect with or forgive his father killer—but how that unlikely connection was established by his seminary teacher. Dad talks about how forgiving his father killer helped him in ways he didn’t know he needed. Dad talks about meeting with his father’s killer after his mission and how they helped him better understand God love for all of us and how our “value never changes” This is one of the most powerful and moving podcasts we’ve ever done. A must listen. If you are navigating the unfairness and wounding of life, please listen to Dan’s story along with his testimony of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal. It will give you more hope and vision of the possibilities in your future. Thank you, Dan, for being on the podcast. I was so moved and uplifted listen to your story—a story that gives all of us more vision on the power of forgiveness. Links: Facebook: www.facebook.com/dan.hamby IG: @dan_hamby72 e-mail: [email protected]

My friendCameron Call (age 40, lives in Arizona, chiropractor, mixed orientation married for ten years, divorced seven years ago, father of three, married his husband 18 months ago) joins us to share his super vulnerable and powerful story: * Navigating gay pornography as a teenager and his attraction to men * Terrified he might be attracted to men—did everything he could to not be gay * Serving a mission in Nashville Tennessee—positive experience—felt he would be OK * Became EFY counselor and got married within a year after his mission * Super honest about struggling with sexual intimacy early (and throughout) their marriage. That—plus male infertility—caused Cameron to feel absolutely defeated * Eventually came out as gay to his wife (positive experience). * Tried to make the marriage work—but eventually it became clear the best path was to end their marriage. * Divorce became the “healthy option” * Cameron’s incredible parents and siblings—their lifesaving love and support. Pride flag at parents’ home * Finding his husband and getting married 18 months ago—so much joy and happiness * While out of the Church, supporting kids in the Church (lives in the kids Ward boundaries) * Navigating anger at the Church—how his family, especially his mom, has been a safe person to process all this with * Good relationship overall with his ex-wife and her new husband. They took a family trip with their entire blended family - six coparents and ten children. Thank you, Cameron, for coming on the podcast and sharing your story. This is one of the finest episodes to know there is hope and a life after divorce. It is also a super powerful episode on the near impossible path our gay/lesbian members walk and the tradeoffs they face that straight people don’t face. It is also a powerful episode to help younger queer people find hope. Thank you, Cameron, for coming on the podcast. You are a good man. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Instagram: @cw_call Facebook: www.facebook.com/cameron.call

My friends Dave and Kirty Zimmerman (married parents of four, active LDS, live in Utah County) join us to share their story of loving/supporting their gay son Dallin who came out at age 13 and is currently serving a mission. Highlights include: * Age 13: “Mom, What if I’m Gay?” * Dave, Kirty, and Dallin walking that road alone for three years without telling anyone. Very difficult road for all three. Positive and negative ward experiences. * Watching the “light go out” of Dallin—and how coming out helped everyone * Dallin (working closely with his parents but letting Dallin take the lead) coming out to family, friends, and his Ward family * Working closely with the Bishop and Ward Council to counsel together and how to best support Dallin—super helpful * Helpful Bishop and Stake President * No pressure for Dallin to serve a mission—yet Dallin chose this so he “could share God’s love with others” * In the celestial room together with Dallin sharing he will never be able to make the next temple covenant—knowing he won’t be able to make it work with a woman * Importance of support for LDS parents walking this road—and how the Ward family can make all the difference for their journey with the Church * Kirty: “Some of the best parts of Dallin are the parts that are gay” * Importance of letting LGBTQ people use the labels they prefer—and how telling people not to take on a label creates shame—and how that is inconsistent with other LDS groups This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on how to support a queer child (out in early teenage years) navigating that with friends, family, and church community. So insightful—and helps all of us consider what we can do to support closeted families in our circle of influence. Also, one of the finest podcasts to help us better understand, support, and love a younger queer Latter-day Saint. Thank you, Dave and Kirty, for being on the podcast and sharing your family story. Thanks for your courage to do this. You are helping create Zion. Much love and respect to the Zimmerman family. Thank you Elder Dallin Zimmerman for allowing your parents to share your story. I feel you are concurrently serving two missions—your mission in South American and your mission with your powerful story being shared—both to help everyone know God loves them. ** Note: Dave and Kirty with be part of a parent breakout session at Gather (Nov 12-14 in Provo, Utah). See show notes for more information and how to register ** Links: Instagram @dave_zman: https://www.instagram.com/dave_zman Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dizzi45Z Instagram @kirtyz: https://www.instagram.com/kirtyz Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirtyz Gather Conference Nov 12-14: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather Faith Matters Episode: https://www.faithmatters.org/p/when-your-child-comes-out-as-gay

My friend Dr. Taylor Petrey (prior editor of Dialogue: a journal of Mormon thought, BA in philosophy and religion from Pace University, and both an MTS and a Th.D. degree from Harvard Divinity School in New Testament and Early Christianity, Professor at Kalamazoo College) joins us to talk about his new Dialogue article called: “History and Theology of Trans and Nonbinary Identity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see show notes). Taylor powerful article takes us through the Church’s history to address transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saint issues starting in the 1970’s through the latest policy statements in 2024 (super painful for many transgender/non-binary folks and their families). Taylor talks about how society generally moved on from the wedge issue of same-sex marriage to a new fear-based wedge issue of transgender and non-binary folks and how that has informed many church members feelings on this topic. Taylor—through extensive interviews with transgender and non-binary folks—talks about how they feel about being transgender/non-binary and how those insights should help inform us how we should feel about them. Taylor—a noted theologian—talks about possible ways our theology has room for our transgender/non-binary friends. I learned so many from Taylor. I encourage everyone to read his Dialog article, listen to this episode, and listen to lots of transgender/non-binary to inform our insights/conclusions about these good folks. Thank you, Taylor, for you much needed work in our community. Links: Taylor’s Dialogue Article: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/history-and-theology-of-trans-and-nonbinary-identity-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints/ Other Dialogue Transgender Content: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/curated-topics/transgender/

My friend Lucas Montoya (gay/queer, mid-20s, lives/works in Texas, RM, University of Chicago graduate) joins us to share his powerful story: * Founding of “RELIC” by LDS connected students at the University of Chicago (community, support, and Journal) * Overview of the articles in the RELIC Journal (see show notes) * Writing is a tool for building community * Lucas’ own journey to go from deep shame/internalized homophobia—to deep acceptance of his queerness * Powerful personal revelation—his personal “Pearl of Gay Price”—to accept/love his queerness. This is title of his RELIC Journal article * How personal prayer helped him in the coming out process (mission president and parents) * How dating men helped him learn his is lovable—helped him feel hope for this future—“lock box key” Thank you, Lucas, for sharing your powerful story of self-love and acceptance. Your story helps other queer people find hope in their lives. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Thanks for all you have done to bless so many along the way. Honored to have you on the podcast. Thanks for your efforts to build Zion. I encourage everyone to listen to and share Lucas’ podcast and check out RELIC. Links: RELIC website: https://uchicagorelic.org RELIC Journal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UFhYa5kAehdp_mSwfdxvdIfZuTYwjLIH/view Salt Lake Tribune Article: Salt Lake Tribute Article: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2026/08/22/lds-students-dallin-oaks-alma/

My friend Olivia Burnett (mid-20s, Utah State graduate, University of Utah MBA) joins us to share her some of her personal story and her groundbreaking and highly successful podcast called “Twenty Something with Olivia Burnett” (see show notes). * Death of her dad Kevin and the resulting depression * Super honest and vulnerable sharing of her depression (feeling lost, forgotten and confused), what was helpful, what was not helpful and how things improved * Positive take on anger—super insightful * Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us * Life in the “messy middle” * Her new and super successful podcast called “Twenty Something with Olivia Burnett”. Why she started it and what she hopes to accomplish * Why she stays in the Church and her advice for others trying to stay in the Church Thank you, Olivia, for being on the podcast and bravely sharing your story. And mega respect for your new podcast—the work you are doing in our community is so needed. Thank you for helping everyone feel God’s love and Christ in their lives. You are awesome. I encourage everyone to follow and share Olivia’s podcast. Links: Instagram: @twenysomething_podcast YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs83WX_XVbjT1VENrzl3TKQ TikTok: @twentysomething_podcast E-mail: [email protected] Olivia’s Dad Kevin’s Obituary: https://www.premierfuneral.com/obituaries/kevin-burnett-2/obituary

My friend Hannah Larson (age 30, lives in New York, RM, founder of Humans of BYU, former seminary teacher, single) joins us to share her story. Hannah talks about: Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us—and deep desire for everyone to feel that . Author of Diary of a Mormon Girl Teaching seminary—but being let go after one year. Super traumatizing experience. Put her whole soul into that assignment to help her students feel God’s love and being a safe place. Experienced pain of patriarchy, went into deep depression, how/why she didn’t leave the church Proactively met with prior Priesthood Leaders who harder her—mixed experiences—super brave—discussion of gaslighting How she is now on the margins as an unmarried 30-year-old How her value isn’t about “who she might be dating”—but her relationship with Jesus Christ Creating a safe community online & IRL for people in the church who want to discuss the complicated issues (see show notes) Why so many Gen Z women are leaving the church—and the need for honest conversations Her upcoming new book about finding God in her romantic relationships and dating experiences . Hannah is one of our bravely guests as she talks about the patriarchy/sexism/gaslighting that is part of our culture and how she is navigating those issues. Hannah talks about making it “all about Jesus” and how important that framework is to moving forward. Please check out Hannah’s social media (see show notes) to connect with her needed work in our community. Thank you, Hannah, for being on the podcast. You give me hope. You are awesome! Links: Hannah’s IG: @honest_han Substack: hannahklarson.substack.com

My friend John Bushman (30+ years teaching Institute/Seminary) joins us to talk about his new book “King Before Kingdom: Faithful Revival Within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In this episode and his book, John talks about specific areas we can improve our culture so that more feel welcome and needed. John also talks about moving from a checklist/legalistic approach to living the gospel—to making it all about coming unto Christ. John offers valuable doctrinal insights from the scriptures that support this approach—and what we can do better to support others. If you are looking for a much-needed book to read and share with others, please listen to this episode and read John’s book. Thank you, John for writing this book, being on the podcast, and your decades of teaching to help others come unto Christ. Your discipleship is so needed in our community. You give me hope. Links: John’s website (with links to the book): www.johnbushman.com or https://www.johnbushman.com/king-before-kingdom.html There you can read a sample chapter or listen on audio. Also links to other podcasts and reels on Social Media. Also reviews on Amazon and the many ways to buy the book.

My friend Jon Larsen (married father of three, lives in Cedar City, 25+ years clinical experience) and Brooklyn Larsen (BYU student, early returned missionary from Argentina, service missionary) join us to talk about their new and needed podcast called “Returned Stronger”. The podcast (and Jon’s life coaching work) focuses on helping early return missionaries find their way forward on principles based on worth, value, and God’s love for them—and how “God never speaks to someone through shame”. In this episode Brooklyn bravely shares her journey with her mental health and why her mission needed to end to return home to get the necessary care she needed. Brooklyn talks honestly about this difficult road—and what gave her hope including deciding to serve a service mission and start their podcast. Jon talks about his role as her father to love and support her and his clinical expertise to support early return missionaries and their families. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with the “Returning Stronger” podcast (see show notes). This will help you better love and support the missionaries in your life. And if you are planning on serving a mission, their podcast will help you better prepare for your mission. Links: Facebook, TikTok and Instagram: @ReturningStronger Podcast: https://youtube.com/@returningstronger Website: https://returningstronger.com

My friend Kari Bates (mother of six, lives in Elko NV, life coach) and Kimberly Bates (HR professional living in NYC) joins us to talk about their new podcast called “Coffee and Cocoa”. Their podcast focused on how Kari and Kimberly reframed/rebuilt their relationship on five core principles after Kimbery left the Church. They talk about the early years, the mistakes they made, and how they learned and implemented new tools/perspectives to preserve their relationship. And how their relationship is now beyond preserving the relationship but thriving. It is a beautiful family love story. And a story that they felt impressed to share with others through their new awesome podcast. If you are looking for a real-life story and actionable principles of preserving/growing a family relationship where there are differences in religious and/or political beliefs, I encourage you to listen/connect with their podcast. Thank you, Kari and Kimberly, for being on the podcast and your much-needed work in our community to build bridges. You two are awesome! Links: Kari’s Instagram: @karibatesfamilycoach Coffee and Cocoa Podcast: https://www.karibates.com/coffee-cocoa-podcast