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** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call, text 988 ** My friend JaQuavious Harris (late 20s, lives in Utah, world class runner including a 2:13 marathon finish) joins us to share his story about Jesus being the center of everything and his invitation for all of us to do the same. JaQuavious shares: Growing up LDS in South Carolina. Mother had him at age 13 Love of running and making his way to BYU Argentina mission—come home to address mental health Coming out to himself (and then others) as gay How his BYU Eternal Families class and constant focus on straight marriage caused him to feel like an abomination leading to believe “I am going to hell and I’m living in hell” All this led to an unsuccessful suicide attempt Following all this, he took to social media to help other come unto Christ and find hope Wise and powerful words from his dying father in 2022 How people can better love and support him Why he stays an active Latter-day Saint His impactful and inspiriting mission to help others Thank you JaQuavious for being on the podcast. Your courage, heart, and goodness inspire me. You are so brave. Your story is helping so many know that God loves them and Christ should be the focus of our lives. I encourage everyone to listen/share JaQuavious’ podcast and follow his Instagram account. You are a good man JaQuavious (and a super-fast runner). Honored to have you on the show. Links: Instagram: @harrisjaquavious

My friends Patrick Mason (Holds the Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University) and Melissa Mason (Clinical Social Worker, Master of Social Work, Utah State University) join us to talk about their new book called “Rooted: Centering Christ in Everything” The authors share that too often, Latter-day Saints have centered their religious lives on rules, worthiness, obedience, institutional loyalty, and cultural expectations rather than on Jesus Christ Himself. They invite readers to rethink what it means to be a disciple of Christ—placing greater emphasis on grace, compassion, love, belonging, and the transforming power of Jesus Christ. Their message isn't that commandments, covenants, or Church participation don't matter. Rather, these things should point us toward Christ, not become substitutes for Him. They offer practical suggestions to bring Christ the focus of our church talks, lessons, conversation—and in all aspects of our lives. This is a super powerful podcast to help all of us better focus on Christ. Thank you, Melissa and Patick, for being on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read their book as we work to become a more Zion people. Links: Book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1639935703 New he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic) Felt belonging with the high school swim team Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time” Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help” Come out to his parents Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope Married Alex in 2015—great marriage “Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed” Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation. It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage. Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode. Links: YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77

My friend Thomas Hostetter (mid-30s, lives in southern Colorado, engaged to be married to his future husband, deep testimony of the Church) joins us to share his remarkable story, including: - Growing up and having an interest in men—but never realizing he was gay - After his mission, falling in love with his straight roommate, realizing he might be gay, and experiencing heartbreak when that friendship ended—driving him back into the closet and leading him to date women - Long journey dating women and not being able to make that work - Dating men and feeling genuine connection (romantic, emotional, and physical) - Deep testimony of the Church and desire for a long-term partnership - Meeting Al and falling in love—a beautiful and healthy relationship, especially after years of dating experience - Panic attack as he realized he was not going to be able to fully participate in the Church he believes to be true - His debut novel, *Grammar of the Scar* (see show notes) - Backstory of the name of his book—discussion of vocabulary and scars—super unique insights - Importance of personal revelation and his hope for the future This episode is full of unique insights to help other LGBTQ folks and all the rest of us. Thomas has been on this road for 20+ years and brings all his lived experiences to his new book and this podcast. Thank you, Thomas, for being on the podcast. You are inspiring. You are a good man, and I’m glad you and Al have found each other. I’m glad you have “someone who wants to love you back.” You are a good man. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode, and to read Thomas’s book. **Links** Thomas’s debut novel, *Grammar of the Scar*, by T.H. Calder, on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0HN8SLZZ6 Thomas on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thomash.hostetter YouTube of this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRmvSvqs-zU

My friend Jess Porter (oldest of six, Hong Kong RM, married husband in 2015) joins us to share his super unique and remarkable story including: Knew he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic) Felt belonging with the high school swim team Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time” Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help” Come out to his parents Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope Married Alex in 2015—great marriage “Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed” Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation. It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage. Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode. Links: YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77 YouTube on this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKHR7AOAbwg

My friend Heidi (straight) and Daniel (gay) join us to share their powerful story including: * Daniel came out to Heidi about 6 years ago, after 18 years of marriage * Their marriage today is more honest, healthier, and stronger than it has ever been * Things that helped Daniel end shame, find hope, and why he came out to Heidi. * How Heidi (who became a Marriage and Family Therapist during this time) navigated her honest feelings “no one believes in my marriage” and a discussion on “what are my tears about”—and learned to address and understand them. * How they have seen God's hand in their individual journeys * How/why they gradually started sharing their story with others and things people did to support them in being so vulnerable * Why Heidi started Complex Couples Coaching and a podcast for others facing uncertainty in their relationships (link below) * Super helpful insights about coming out to their children (4 boys and 1 girl) and their children’s love and acceptance of their Dad—and how being a great Dad is not connected to sexual orientation. * Daniel's deep acceptance of himself—including not “waving a wand to have this taken away” This is a super powerful podcast—one of the best mixed orientation marriages podcasts we’ve done. It also has super unique and helpful insights from Heidi—the straight spouse learning about all this after 18 years of marriage and navigating all those emotions/questions. Thank you, Heidi and Daniel, for sharing your story and all you are doing to help us create Zion and come together as the same human family. Note: Heidi and Daniel will be in a breakout session at Gather on Friday November 13th (see show notes for registration info and a 20% discount). Links: Complex Couples Podcast: https://www.complexcouplescoaching.com/podcasts/complex-couples-podcast For coaching with Heidi: https://www.complexcouplescoaching.com/coaching-application Gather Conference: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather (use code OSLTER26 for a 20% discount)

My friends Dr. Lance Peterson and Dr. Angela Baerwolf join us to talk about their new research called “Acceptance Journeys of LDS Families of their LGB Child: An Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis”. Their article is published in the “Families in Society: The Journal of Contemporary Social Servies” (see show notes). Lance and Angela talk about how their team (which includes Sarah Chan Peterson and Katelyn Opperman) conducted qualitative research from ten of the brave stories shared on our podcast and using those stories to create four key themes of parents acceptance and love for their LGB child. In the podcast, they discuss the methodology (super fascinating), research, and their finding around these four themes: 1) Self-education and internal growth 2) Creating support and finding community 3) Encouraging and Supporting Spirituality 4) Sacred Advocacy and Spiritual Work I learn so much from their research. If are a parent, ally, or friend to an LGB person, I encourage you to listen to their podcast and check out their research. It will help you and empower you to better support the good LGB/Queer people in your life—and also give you ideas on how to be a “pioneer” to help others. Thank you, Lance, Angela, Sara, and Kate, for your much needed work. You give me hope. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and their research. Links: Research link (behind a paywall): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/10443894261471608 Social Work Collaboration on Religion, Sexuality and Gender: https://sites.google.com/view/socialworkcollaborative/home Lance Peterson’s e-mail: [email protected] Lance’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lance-peterson-phd-licsw-b5a147b Angela’s email: [email protected] Angela’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelabaerwolf/ Angela’s article based on her dissertation: LGBTQ+ youth experiences of the COVID-19 pandemic as observed through gender-sexuality alliance advisors

Dr. Jennifer Dobberfuhl Quinlan (PhD in Instructional Psychology and Technology from BYU, MTC Director managed the language curriculum development across more than 60 languages, mother of 3, early 50s,) joins us to share her story including: * Being sexually fluid * Having few resources and others with the same shared experience to give perspective and hope * Lots of advice from people—much of which was painful—but also giving grace to them * Dealing with and working through shame of not having it all figured out * Working through her darkest days being suicidal—how she felt “my life was ruining the lives of those around me”. * How she found a way forward with hope—and how her story gives hope to others Managing her “toolbox”—great insights * Upcoming Gather Conference (Nov 13-14, 2026, see show notes) This is one of the bravest stories ever shared—the first with someone being sexually fluid. I learned so much from Jennifer. Thank you, Jennifer, for being on the podcast and helping our LGBTQ friends find hope in their story by listening to the principals, perspectives, and gospel insights you shared. Your story also helps us allies better support the good LGBTQ friends and family in our lives. I encourage everyone to listen to Jennifer’s podcast and attend Gather. Links: Gather Conference: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather Jennifer’s email: [email protected]

This is a short podcast where I read excerpts from three Substack articles on this subject: Substack excerpt one: My thoughts on this subject as a former YSA Bishop Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/thoughts-on-masturbation-after-serving Substack excerpt two: Anonymous male: “My lifelong struggle against masturbation and shame, and how individuals, families and the church as a whole can reduce the shame around masturbation.” Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/overcoming-masturbation-and-shame Substack excerpt two: Anonymous female: “I wanted to expand this great dialogue about masturbation to address the underlying reasons many YSA’s turn to this in context of their alternative choices.” Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/how-it-feels-to-be-an-older-24-ysa Note: My Substack is free and will always be free

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (twin brothers in their 20s, from Mesa Arizona, brother Sam died by suicide 16 while they were missionaries) talk about their work: * Being mental health advocates and fitness coaches to help others find hope and end shame * Helping those who are suicidal find hope and how Sam tied his identity to perfectionism * Normalizing honest and vulnerable discussions—how these are healthy male attributes * Coping with grief—how they turned to overeating and pornography use—how they learned to heal through Jesus and therapy * How shame dies in opening up and vulnerability * Their work to support the LGBTQ community * What we can do in our families and church communities to make it safer for suicidal folks to open up Jake and Joe are on a mission to bring people closer to Christ, reduce shame, role-model vulnerability, and help others find hope. I am deeply moved by and supportive of their work. They inspire me. Please listen/share this episode and contact with their social media platforms (see below). And (as mentioned in the podcast) if you are in a position to help them set up a 501c non-profit (or help an any way you feel inspired) please reach out to them. I feel impressed their work is just beginning in our community. Thank you, Jake and Joe, for all your great work. Honored to have you on the show. Links: Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit Earlier episode 811: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-811-jake-and-joe-sharp-lost-brother-sam-to/id1347971725?i=1000691741343 Richard Ostler Substack on masturbation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-215364913

My friend Pam Shepherd, a communications professional at George Mason University and a sixth-generation Latter-day Saint, joins us to share some of her journey growing up Mormon while not always feeling like she fit the traditional Mormon mold. Pam talks about navigating that experience at BYU and later as a young single adult in the Washington, DC area. She also discusses her desire to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women (ages 18-29) on a variety of issues. That curiosity led to a research project for which she is currently seeking anonymous survey participants (see show notes for details). Thank you, Pam, for sharing both your personal story and the motivation behind this important research. Your experiences navigating life both within and outside traditional Mormon expectations give you a unique perspective as you seek to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women. I appreciate your willingness to undertake this work and contribute meaningful data to an area where little research currently exists. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast. If you are a Gen Z LDS woman, I encourage you to fill out Pam’s survey. Survey: https://gmu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eE9q7qaZAsdbAHA Email: [email protected] Instagram: @pammyshep

My friend Parker Vassau (married father of 3, business owner—marketing and pest control, longtime friend) joins us to share his story: Unexpected illness at age 14—tumor, complications, and not being able to eat for four months Principles to serve a successful mission—Parker knows this well after serving in Bulgaria. Not being defined by his ACT score of 16 Vision a BYU teacher have game him—acting on that vision—hard work and sacrifice to make it happen Supporting the many young men that are part of his businesses including being a safe place Starting his podcast called “The Committed Man” (see show notes) Insightful comments about mental health Powerful tribute to his step-father Darl McBride and our dear family friend (who died in Sept 2024 of ALS) Thank you my friend Parker for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help and build others. You inspire me. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with Parker’s podcast. Links: The Committed Man podcast: www.committedman.com Parker on IG: @parker.vassau

Matt Mosman (friend from BYU MBA school, prior senior vice president of development at Oracle, currently general parter of venture capital firm in Salt Lake, well known expert on mergers and acquisitions), joins us to share the story of being called as the High Councilor over the Bay Ward in San Francisco and all they did to help the gay men and women feel welcome at Church. Those efforts including calling an “openly gay man” Mitch Maynes into the Bishopric as the executive secretary and sending a letter out to all ward members they are welcome and won’t be excommunicated for showing up at Church. Matt talks about speaking throughout the Stake on better supporting LGBTQ members and how he handed “the heat his took” for his advocacy. He talks about how God created His queer children as intended and we should look at them as beloved children of Heavenly Parents. Matt wrote a powerful essay called “How to Read Your Religion’s Foundational Texts” (see show notes) where he powerfully shares his feelings on: * Jesus’s strongest condemnation was for the Pharisees—and how that applies today * The parable of the Good Samaritan—best summary I’ve ever read Further, Matt is completely clear about why he stays in the Church and how he feels about where the Church is with its LGBTQ members: “What I mean by "cafeteria Christian" is this: a person who accepts large portions of their tradition's teaching while consciously declining others. I am one of these people. I am a committed member of my own denomination. I believe deeply in its foundational claims. I try to live according to its principles. Yet there are positions my church holds on certain matters — including, specifically, the treatment of LGBTQ members — where I have concluded, after long and prayerful consideration, that my tradition is simply wrong. I hold that view while remaining within the tradition, because I understand my faith to be larger than any single institutional position.” One of Matt’s gifts is being bold and clear—and he uses that gift to talk about how to better support our LGBT friends. Matt—who is politically left—also talks about speaking up to share how he feels even if it is a minority position. Matt shares his son coming out as gay several years after Matt’s High Council assignment and how that was a non-event—as a closest youth he already knew his Dad loved him as he saw-first hand his Dad’s advocacy—super powerful parenting experience for us all to consider. Thank you, Matt, for being on the podcast and all you do to help create Zion by helpful everyone feel welcome, loved and needed. You are a good man. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this powerful episode. Links: Matt’s essay: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hd1utwih1h1qagx2eg0qn/How-to-Read-Your-Religion-s-Foundational-Texts-by-Matt-Mosman.pdf?rlkey=81quise3my3vii3brjri5jz74&dl=0

My friend Doug Staker (father of three, Master of Architecture from UCLA, Principal Architect with Squaremoon Studio, lives in Salt Lake City) joins us to share the story of the genesis of Sanctuary—a physical structure representing safely/love/acceptance that was first part of Utah Pride in 2018. Doug talks about his gay brother Thomas and becoming curious and going on a trip where he asked, “tell me about your life”. Doug talks about how this transformed his perspective about queer people and felt spiritually called to ally and use his creative and architecture expertise. This spiritual impression led to the creation of sanctuary that has been part of Utah Pride four different times. Doug talks about being at the Encircle gala and connecting with Autumn McAlpin (film producer, mother of two queer children) which led to the creation of Sanctuary—a full length powerful documentary film about LGBTQ Latter-day Saints (see show notes on how to watch/share this must-see film). Doug talks about two of his children coming out as queer (trans and bi-sexual) and his journey to love and accept them—super powerful. Thank you, Doug, for being on the podcast and sharing your remarkable story of using your God given talents to love and support our queer friends. Thanks for following your spiritual impressions to walk into this space and make a difference. Thank you, Autumn McAlpin, and Vienna Boyes (all the entire team) for your efforts to direct, produce and release this deeply moving documentary—I was so moved watching it a few months ago. I invite everyone to listen to Doug’s podcast and watch/share Sanctuary. Links: Doug’s Sanctuary project website: https://www.squaremoon.art/ Sanctuary Documentary: https://sanctuarydoc.com/

My friend Dan Hamby (married father of four) joins us to share his super powerful story of meeting with and ultimately forgiving the man who murdered his father Everett when Dan was 7 years old. Dan talks he wasn’t looking to connect with or forgive his father killer—but how that unlikely connection was established by his seminary teacher. Dad talks about how forgiving his father killer helped him in ways he didn’t know he needed. Dad talks about meeting with his father’s killer after his mission and how they helped him better understand God love for all of us and how our “value never changes” This is one of the most powerful and moving podcasts we’ve ever done. A must listen. If you are navigating the unfairness and wounding of life, please listen to Dan’s story along with his testimony of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal. It will give you more hope and vision of the possibilities in your future. Thank you, Dan, for being on the podcast. I was so moved and uplifted listen to your story—a story that gives all of us more vision on the power of forgiveness. Links: Facebook: www.facebook.com/dan.hamby IG: @dan_hamby72 e-mail: [email protected]

My friendCameron Call (age 40, lives in Arizona, chiropractor, mixed orientation married for ten years, divorced seven years ago, father of three, married his husband 18 months ago) joins us to share his super vulnerable and powerful story: * Navigating gay pornography as a teenager and his attraction to men * Terrified he might be attracted to men—did everything he could to not be gay * Serving a mission in Nashville Tennessee—positive experience—felt he would be OK * Became EFY counselor and got married within a year after his mission * Super honest about struggling with sexual intimacy early (and throughout) their marriage. That—plus male infertility—caused Cameron to feel absolutely defeated * Eventually came out as gay to his wife (positive experience). * Tried to make the marriage work—but eventually it became clear the best path was to end their marriage. * Divorce became the “healthy option” * Cameron’s incredible parents and siblings—their lifesaving love and support. Pride flag at parents’ home * Finding his husband and getting married 18 months ago—so much joy and happiness * While out of the Church, supporting kids in the Church (lives in the kids Ward boundaries) * Navigating anger at the Church—how his family, especially his mom, has been a safe person to process all this with * Good relationship overall with his ex-wife and her new husband. They took a family trip with their entire blended family - six coparents and ten children. Thank you, Cameron, for coming on the podcast and sharing your story. This is one of the finest episodes to know there is hope and a life after divorce. It is also a super powerful episode on the near impossible path our gay/lesbian members walk and the tradeoffs they face that straight people don’t face. It is also a powerful episode to help younger queer people find hope. Thank you, Cameron, for coming on the podcast. You are a good man. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Instagram: @cw_call Facebook: www.facebook.com/cameron.call