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In this final episode of Equiosity, we come together to remember and celebrate Alexandra Kurland. Alex was an extraordinary teacher, a pioneer in positive reinforcement training, and a generous mentor who transformed the way we think about horses, training, and learning. I'm Dominique Day, Alex's longtime co-host, and I am joined by students from around the world who share their memories of Alex and reflect on the profound impact she had on their understanding of horses, their teaching, and their lives. Throughout this deeply moving episode, the love and gratitude we all feel for Alex are unmistakable, as is the sadness of losing someone who meant so much to us. These stories reveal not only her remarkable knowledge and skill, but also her kindness, humor, generosity, and extraordinary ability to help others learn. This episode is a tribute to Alex and to the legacy she leaves behind — a community of learners who continue to share her work, support one another, and carry her teachings forward. Thank you, Alex, for everything.

This is part 2 of our conversation about shaping on a point of contact. In Part 1 we began the conversation with Dominique saying she doesn’t believe you can fully reap the full benefits of positive reinforcement training if you don’t understand and use this concept of shaping on a point of contact - at least when you’re working with horses. That’s a strong statement to make. As always, contrast is a good teacher. Dominique has been watching trainers in the barn where she keeps her horses using treats to teach some behaviors and traditional commands to teach others. The difference in the demeanor of the horses under these different contexts is striking. The change reminded her of the poisoned cue research that was done by Dr Jesus Rosales Ruiz and his graduate student, Nicole Murray roughly twenty years ago. So that’s where we began - with a description of the research and the implications for horse training. When the research first came out, the conclusion was negative and positive reinforcement shouldn’t be mixed. When you do, you’ll end up with poisoned cues. My response was to say: but we would never use the lead in the way that it was applied. In the experiment, when the dog did not respond appropriately, it was dragged by the lead to the handler. This was clearly aversive to the dog. Dragging was a clear escalation of pressure. In shaping on a point of contact, you take the slack out of the lead. That makes contact. You have made your presence known. The lead is saying: “I want something.” But it’s not up to you to solve the puzzle for the learner. If you add more pressure, you will move the dog’s body for him. In shaping on a point of contact, it is up to the dog to move his own body. Waiting is part of the process. Small approximations are part of the process. The use of the lead is there to provide information that helps the learner get to his reinforcement faster. If the ask begins to be painful, scary, threatening in any way, then you have crossed a line and you run the risk of creating poisoned cues with all the negative, long lasting consequences that we observed in the original study. So in Part 1 we set the stage with the discussion of the poisoned cue research. In Part 2 we contrast shaping on a point of contact with more abrupt techniques that make use of escalating pressure. I talk about the crippling effect that backwards traction has on horses. It’s one of the many reasons learning to go to a point of contact and not beyond is so very important.

Dominique has been watching trainers in the barn where she keeps her horses working with treats to teach some behaviors and traditional commands to teach others. The difference in the demeanor of the horses under these different contexts is striking. This has made Dominique appreciate all the more how important shaping on a point of contact is. That’s a concept that is very much part of my work. To understand what this phrase means we begin in Part 1 of this conversation with a discussion of poisoned cues. Ideally we would like the signals we use to request a change in our horse’s behavior to be an invitation. We refer to this type of signal as a cue. But what happens if our invitation is ignored? Does the signal escalate into a “do not or else” threat? That means that first mild request is really a warning signal. It is saying: respond now or things will become uncomfortable. Are you training with cues or warning signals? That’s question is key to understanding shaping on a point of contact.

This is part 4 of a conversation that’s on one subject - the foundation lesson that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. In several recent podcasts Dominique has said this is her favorite behavior. That’s a strong statement to make, so we both thought we should have a conversation where she gets to explain why she likes grown-ups so very much. It turns out we both have a lot to say about grown-ups. In Part. 1 I got us started by describing the behavior I’m referring that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. We ended that episode by saying that we aren’t just looking for a particular head orientation, but we are looking for the whole expression of the horse because we want to build in calmness and Deep all-is-well relaxation. In Part 2 we described how you go about creating not just a horse who stands still when asked, but who is relaxed, confident and at ease when doing so. We included some handling tips for building duration. Building duration helps the base behavior of grown-ups to expand. It morphs into ground tying meaning your horse remains in stillness while you move around him and perform tasks such as grooming, foot care, saddling, etc. We looked at what it means for grown-ups to be an off switch for other behaviors. And we ended with the way grown-ups can be used to teach great balance. We can use grown-ups to normalize the feel of standing in balance. That’s so important, so we continued to talk about balance, both physical and emotional in Part 3 We described default behaviors - what they are and how they function. Default behaviors for me include “the pose” which is a behavior that has been a keystone in Robin’s training. I describe both how the pose was taught, how it functions and its many benefits. We ended just as we were starting to talk about how grown ups can be used to teach great grass manners. That’s the main focus of this episode - how you transform grass into a welcome carpet of motivation. Grown-ups perfected becomes an elegant behavior. Clicker training turns the ordinary into extraordinary behavior.

This is part 3 of a conversation that’s on one subject - the foundation lesson that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. In several recent podcasts Dominique has said this is her favorite behavior. That’s a strong statement to make, so we both thought we should have a conversation where she gets to explain why she likes grown-ups so very much. It turns out we both have a lot to say about grown-ups. In Part. 1 I got us started by describing the behavior I’m referring that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. We ended that episode by saying that we aren’t just looking for a particular head orientation, but we are looking for the whole expression of the horse because we want to build in calmness and Deep all-is-well relaxation. In Part 2 we described how you go about creating not just a horse who stands still when asked, but who is relaxed, confident and at ease when doing so. We included some handling tips for building duration. It turns out the process of building duration helps the base behavior of grown-ups to expand. Grown-ups morphs into ground tying, meaning your horse remains in stillness while you move around him and perform tasks such as grooming, foot care, saddling, etc. We looked at what it means for grown-ups to be an off switch for other behaviors. And we ended with the way grown-ups can be used to teach great balance. We can use grown-ups to normalize the feel of standing in balance. In Part 3 we continue to talk about balance, both physical and emotional. We describe default behaviors - what they are and how they function. That includes “the pose” which is a behavior that has been a keystone in Robin’s training. I describe both how the pose was taught and its many benefits.

This is part 2 of a conversation that’s on one subject - the foundation lesson that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. In several recent podcasts Dominique has said this is her favorite behavior. That’s a strong statement to make, so we both thought we should have a conversation where she gets to explain why she likes grown-ups so very much. It turns out we both have a lot to say about grown-ups. In Part 1 I got us started by describing the behavior I’m referring that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. We ended that episode by saying that we aren’t just looking for a particular head orientation, but we are looking for the whole expression of the horse because we want to build calmness and a deep all-is-well relaxation into the behavior. In Part 2 we describe how you go about creating not just a horse who stands still when asked, but one who is relaxed, confident and at ease when doing so. We include some handling tips for building duration. Building duration helps expand the base behavior of grown-ups. It transforms basic grown-ups into ground tying, meaning your horse remains in stillness while you move around him and perform tasks such as grooming, foot care, saddling, etc. We explain what it means for grown-ups to be an off switch for other behaviors. And we end with the way grown-ups can be used to teach great balance. We can use grown-ups to normalize the feel of standing in balance.

This is part 1 of a conversation that’s on one subject - the foundation lesson that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt. In several recent podcasts Dominique has said this is her favorite behavior. That’s a strong statement to make, so we both thought we should have a conversation where she gets to explain why she likes grown-ups so very much. It tuns out we both have a lot to say about grown-ups. I get us started by describing the behavior that I call the grown-ups are talking, please don’t interrupt: what it looks like and how you teach it. I explain why I gave it that name, and I describe how it evolved into one of the core foundation lessons that I use to introduce a horse and handler to clicker training. We’re teaching stillness. Both Dominique and I share some stories that help explain why we so value this behavior.

This is Part 3 of our conversation with Michele Pouliot. Michele is best known as a dog trainer, but she also has a strong horse background. , Since 1974 Michele has been a professional guide dog instructor with the largest US guide dog school serving the blind. Before entering the guide dog field, she was a professional in the field of horse training, mentoring under Linda Tellington Jones and Wentworth Tellington. Michele retired from Guide Dogs for the Blind after 42 years of service. During her last 16 years, she held the position of Director of Research and Development for programs at Guide Dogs. In that position Michele was responsible for bringing science based Clicker Training to guide dog training and promoting the expansion of Clicker Training internationally within the guide dog field. In her "hobby world", Michele has actively competed in both horse and dog sports since 1970. After successfully competing in dog obedience for 20 years, she moved into the new sport of agility in 1992. In 2006, Michele became fascinated with the sport of canine musical freestyle and began a dog sport journey she continues to love. She has competed in canine musical freestyle with her English Springer spaniel, Cabo, Australian Shepherd, Listo and her young Springer spaniel Deja Vu. Michele thoroughly enjoys this artistic sport that combines the precision of obedience with trick behaviors and challenges her creative side through music and choreography. Michele has won numerous international competitions and Championship Titles. She thoroughly enjoys the ongoing challenges in the sport of canine freestyle and the use of Clicker Training to achieve innovative and entertaining routines. In Part 1 of our conversation we began with some of the differences that exist in the horse and dog communities in terms of what prompts people to compete. Michele talked about strategies she has developed to create long sequences for competitions in which you can’t stop for a click and a treat. In Part 2 we talked about how important it is to protect the learners enthusiasm for the behaviors you’re asking for - and how difficult this can be, especially when you begin to ask for more duration. Michele shared several strategies for building duration. We ended with an example of teaching a horse (or dog) to put a foot on a raised stand and keep it there. We emphasized the point that you want to begin by teaching easy behaviors. Michele made the distinction - are you clicking for movement or for stillness? That brought us to a question I keep returning to which is: to click or not to click. That’s where we begin in Part 3 of our conversation. We consider also strategies for those times when training falls apart.

This is Part 2 of our conversation with Michele Pouliot. Michele is best known as a dog trainer, but she also has a strong horse background. , Since 1974 Michele has been a professional guide dog instructor with the largest US guide dog school serving the blind. Before entering the guide dog field, she was a professional in the field of horse training, mentoring under Linda Tellington Jones and Wentworth Tellington. Michele retired from Guide Dogs for the Blind after 42 years of service. During her last 16 years, she held the position of Director of Research and Development for programs at Guide Dogs. In that position Michele was responsible for bringing science based Clicker Training to guide dog training and promoting the expansion of Clicker Training internationally within the guide dog field. In her "hobby world", Michele has actively competed in both horse and dog sports since 1970. After successfully competing in dog obedience for 20 years, she moved into the new sport of agility in 1992. In 2006, Michele became fascinated with the sport of canine musical freestyle and began a dog sport journey she continues to love. She has competed in canine musical freestyle with her English Springer spaniel, Cabo, Australian Shepherd, Listo and her young Springer spaniel Deja Vu. Michele thoroughly enjoys this artistic sport that combines the precision of obedience with trick behaviors and challenges her creative side through music and choreography. Michele has won numerous international competitions and Championship Titles. She thoroughly enjoys the ongoing challenges in the sport of canine freestyle and the use of Clicker Training to achieve innovative and entertaining routines. In 2007, Karen Pryor invited Michele to join the faculty of Clicker Expo Conferences. Her presentations are for me always one of the highlights of the Expo. In this episode Michele shares strategies she uses for developing her freestyle routines where she can’t click and treat during the performances. Maintaining her dog’s enthusiasm for the behaviors she asks for is essential if they are to succeed in competition. So the question is how do you go from clicking and treating every small effort to long sequences in which you can not include a click and treat mid-way through a performance.

We’re beginning a conversation with Michele Pouliot. Michele is best known as a dog trainer, but she also has a strong horse background. Beginning in 1974 Michele has been a professional guide dog instructor with the largest US guide dog school serving the blind. Before entering the guide dog field, she was a professional in the field of horse training, mentoring under Linda Tellington Jones and Wentworth Tellington. In 1972, Michele became active in training her first pet Labrador and became fascinated with the comparisons of how dogs and horses learn, stimulating her interest and pursuit in professional dog training. Michele has served as an International Assessor of guide dog school programs for the International Guide Dog Federation. She has completed assessments on guide dog schools in Norway, Austria, Czech Republic, France, Japan, Holland and Great Britain. Michele retired from Guide Dogs for the Blind after 42 years of service. During her last 16 years, she held the position of Director of Research and Development for programs at Guide Dogs for the Blind. In that position she transformed the training program to clicker training. Over her 40+ years of dog training, Michele has been responsible for bringing science based Clicker Training to guide dog training and promoting the expansion of Clicker Training internationally within the guide dog field. In her "hobby world", Michele has actively competed in both horse and dog sports since 1970. After successfully competing in dog obedience for 20 years, she moved into the new sport of agility in 1992. After much fun and success in agility with Labradors, English Springer Spaniels and even Great Danes, Michele took a break from dog sports to focus on her equine hobbies. In 2006, Michele became fascinated with the sport of canine musical freestyle and began a dog sport journey she continues to love. She has competed in canine musical freestyle with her English Springer spaniel, Cabo, Australian Shepherd, Listo and her young Springer spaniel Deja Vu. Michele thoroughly enjoys this artistic sport that combines the precision of obedience with trick behaviors and challenges her creative side through music and choreography. In 5 years in the sport, Michele has won 4 international competitions and attained 5 Championship Titles. In 2008 she received the first scores of double 10's (perfect scores) for Technical and Artistic in one routine in WCFO's Championship division (Perfect Dance Partners). She repeated this accomplishment at the 2009 International competition when all 3 judges awarded double 10's to her freestyle routine. To date Michele and Listo have earned 'double 10' scores a total of twenty-four times. Michele thoroughly enjoys the ongoing challenges in the sport of canine freestyle and the use of Clicker Training to achieve innovative and entertaining routines. In 2007, Karen Pryor invited Michele to join her faculty for Clicker Expo Conferences. At Clicker Expo, Michele presents on the application of clicker techniques for a variety of dog sports, general training, and for the training of guide dogs for the blind. Karen Pryor and Michele collaborated for the development of Michele's online freestyle course which is available from the Karen Pryor Academy. In this episode we begin a conversation that is centered around strategies used in competition where you have to develop long duration programs in which you are not allowed to use treats.

We recorded this conversation early in April 2026 right after the Clicker Expo. In Part 1 the Clicker Expo served as a launching point for our conversation. We talked about Dr Susan Friedman’s presentation on Doing Compassion and my own talk on Thinking Fast, Making Quick Decisions. My program included a discussion of the characteristics we see in skilled trainers. In part 1 I listed some of those characteristics. Among other things skilled trainers able to be flexible as needed. They are able to make adjustments in what they are asking. And they are creative. They are able to find teaching strategies and appropriate training steps that suits their learner’s individual needs. For the full list refer back to Part 1. These characteristics are not some special gifts that people are born with. We can think of them as a by-product that emerges as we gain experience training our animal learners. The point of my program is we can be more deliberate, less hit or miss, in the development of these traits. When we jump into this training, of course people are focused on what they will be teaching their horses. That’s only natural. But it isn’t just the horses who are learning new skills. In the Thinking Fast program, I turned the spotlight onto the handler. What are the lessons the handlers are learning as they introduce their horses to basic targeting and the other core lessons? The structure and focus of these lessons helps to develop advanced training skills. In Part 2 we continued with the discussion of the Thinking Fast presentation. We talked about what advanced training means, especially for handlers, and how do we develop advanced training skills? In Part 3 we begin with another of my Expo Talks, this one is on Training Traps. To introduce that topic I have to first define what I mean by broad and narrow end of the funnel thinking. Defining terms to start out with is important. It means we are all on the same page, talking about the same thing. A good illustration of that is the discussion of starter button and constant on cues. I’m using definitions that for me go back to Karen Pryor’s book, “Lads Before the Wind”. In this Episode I also share what happened in the Backstage Pass presentation where I was supposed to work with a dog. Find out how that turned out in this week’s episode.

We recorded this conversation early in April 2026 right after the Clicker Expo in New York. In Part 1 the Clicker Expo served as a launching point for our conversation. We talked about Dr Susan Friedman’s presentation on Doing Compassion and my own talk on Thinking Fast and Making Quick Decisions. In Part 2 we continue with the discussion of the Thinking Fast presentation. We talk about what advanced training means, especially for handlers, and a teaching process that helps to develop advanced training skills.

We recorded this conversation early in April 2026 right after the Clicker Expo. Dominique was really torn. She wanted to attend the Expo, but she didn’t feel comfortable traveling to the US given the current political climate. In the end she decided to stay home. That meant she was especially eager to hear about my Expo experience. In this episode we talk about Dr Susan Friedman’s presentation on “Doing Compassion” and my own talk on “Thinking Fast”.

In 2025 Dominique needed to take some time off over the summer. I went ahead and did a series of interviews, including one with Dr Claire St Peter and Dr Carol Pilgrim, episodes 349 to 351. We were talking about stimulus control. Those episodes aired in the fall. The episode you’re about to listen to was supposed to air back in the fall as well, but somehow it fell between the cracks and we moved on with other interviews instead. Now we’re airing that conversation. In Part 1 we talked about the standard instructions for teaching cues and the way that I prefer to teach them. The standard instructions make use of extinction. I prefer to teach behaviors in pairs. I make use of a very powerful reminder: for every exercise there is an opposite exercise you must teach to keep things in balance. The result is strong stimulus control. In Part 2 Dominique asked about learning what to click. When you are first starting out and you’ve never taught a behavior before, how do you know what to click? How do you avoid making a total mess of your stimulus control because you are clicking so many different versions of the behavior you’re after. We talked about becoming a selective sifter. Even when you aren’t sure what you want to click because the behavior you’re teaching is new to you, you can still apply “narrow end of the funnel” thinking as you build the new behavior. In Part 3 we begin with environmental cues and pre-performance cues. Then we head into a discussion of 300 peck pigeons. Environmental cues include distractions. Distractions are often seen as something negative, something handlers try to avoid to the point that distractions become a source of anxiety for the handler. Instead distractions can be transformed into stimuli handlers can use to advance their training. Distractions led us to training for duration and that took us to a discussion of a lesson I developed for Robin when he was a youngster. I called it the 300 Hundred Peck Pigeon Lesson. Dominique wondered if 28 years on from the time I developed that lesson for Robin would I still use it? That took us to a discussion of boarding barns and the constraints we are often working under when we can’t keep our horses at home. Those constraints often mean we have to become very creative to meet the mental, emotional and physical needs of our horses.

In 2025 Dominique needed to take some time off over the summer. I went ahead and did a series of interviews, including one with Dr Claire St Peter and Dr Carol Pilgrim, episodes 349 to 351. We were talking about stimulus control. Those episodes aired in the fall. The episode you’re about to listen to was supposed to air back in the fall as well, but somehow it fell between the cracks and we moved on with other interviews instead. Now we’re airing that conversation. In Part 1 we talked about the standard instructions for teaching cues and the way that I prefer to teach them. The standard instructions make use of extinction. I prefer to teach behaviors in pairs. I make use of a very powerful reminder: for every exercise there is an opposite exercise you must teach to keep things in balance. The result is strong stimulus control. In Part 2 Dominique asked about learning what to click. When you are first starting out and you’ve never taught a behavior before, how do you know what to click? How do you avoid making a total mess of your stimulus control because you are clicking so many different versions of the behavior you’re after. We talked about becoming a selective sifter. Even when you aren’t sure what you want to click because the behavior you’re teaching is new to you, you can still apply “narrow end of the funnel” thinking as you build the new behavior.