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To close out our 10th anniversary micro-series, we flip the format: Yulee interviews Daniel about his own journey to founding the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary. It’s a more personal episode than usual, tracing the family history, faith formation, and institutional battles that shaped both Daniel and the Center itself. Daniel’s upbringing in a Korean American church in Northern Virginia, and how growing up alongside non-Korean Asian American friends—while navigating an abusive father—shaped his early pull toward a broader Asian American identity His campus ministry years as “Grace Man,” and the pushback he got for it Going to Princeton to study Karl Barth and, for a time, trying to leave Asian American ministry behind entirely in pursuit of becoming “a legitimate theologian” The unraveling of that plan: unresolved family patterns, disillusionment with Tim Keller’s Redeemer model, and a friend’s blunt observation—”all you do is talk about Asian American stuff”—that brought him back Arriving at Fuller, starting the Asian American Theological Fellowship as a lone ThM student, and the years of institutional confusion that followed (mistaken-identity emails, “what language will you teach it in?”) The financial and political cost of building the Center—years on food stamps, a breakdown in an empty office, HR complaints, and resistance from unexpected places, including fellow Asian Americans The founding commitment to a truly pan-Asian American Center—not a “wink-wink” Korean or East Asian program—built around Asian heritage, migration experience, American culture, and racialization Where the Center is headed next: the Filipino American Ministry Initiative, the Korean American Ministry Initiative, South Asian American work, and the shift from research toward resourcing This one’s a little different—less history lecture, more origin story. Thanks for listening, and thanks for walking this whole micro-series with us. We’ll see you at the 10th anniversary celebration this October. Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac. For information about our 10th anniversary gala, visit tinyurl.com/10yearsaac

This episode continues our 10th anniversary micro-series with a conversation featuring Dr. Ken Fong—longtime pastor of Evergreen Baptist Church of Los Angeles, former national Asian American ministry leader, and Daniel's predecessor as Executive Director of Fuller's Asian American Initiative. Ken and Daniel trace the decades-long, often invisible labor behind the Asian American Center's history, from Fuller's earliest Asian American ministries class to the founding of the Center itself. Ken's path to Fuller in 1978, and the wave of Japanese American and Chinese American students who shaped the seminary's Asian American presence in that era Why Japanese American churches—shaped by the incarceration camps and shifting generational leadership—became, in Ken's words, a reluctant "vanguard" of pan-Asian ministry Evergreen Baptist's decision to hire its first Chinese American associate pastor, and Ken's framing of the church as evolving from a "Japanese restaurant" to a fusion menu still cooked by Asian American chefs Ken's early clashes over "new wineskins" for American-born Chinese ministry, and the "30 years too soon" conversation that followed The founding and dissolution of Fuller's earlier Asian American Initiative—including the racism Ken and Daniel encountered while trying to institutionalize the program, and why Ken ultimately stepped down so the Center could be funded Ken and Daniel's reflections on the emotional toll of that transition, and what it meant to rebuild afterward Why Asian American women students were consistently among the strongest in Ken's classes—and how few went on into full-time ministry Ken's shift over time from megachurch ambitions to a more communal, formation-centered vision of Asian American church This one runs long on institutional history, but it's essential context for understanding what the Center stands on. Thanks for listening! Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac. For information about our 10th anniversary gala, visit tinyurl.com/10yearsaac

Asian, Asian American, and the Making of a Center: A Conversation with Jane Hong In this episode, Daniel and Yulee welcome Dr. Jane Hong, professor of history at Occidental College and author of the award-winning Opening the Gates to Asia, for a conversation that's part of a micro-series marking the Asian American Center's 10th anniversary—tracing the histories that came before us. Jane walks through the surprising, often-overlooked story of Asian American evangelicalism, and Fuller Seminary's complicated role in it. The conversation covers: How Jane's research originated—partly from a 2017 gathering of Asian American Christians processing the 2016 election, and partly from trying to understand her own family members who voted for Trump across three elections Why anti-communism, generational trauma, and disinformation help explain (without excusing) political conservatism in many Asian immigrant communities—and how to hold disagreement with grace Fuller's "vaunted" place in white evangelical history, and the untold story of its growth since the 1980s through Asian, Asian American, and international student enrollment The institutional tension between "Asian" and "Asian American" identity at Fuller—including the assumption that Korean international programs could simply stand in for Asian American ministry Key figures and flashpoints: the 1965 Immigration Act, the 1992 LA Uprising (Saigu), the "Silent Exodus" article, InterVarsity pioneers like Jeanette Yep, and the funding disparities between Black, Hispanic, and Asian pastoral programs at Fuller Jane's hope for the next generation: that Asian American history becomes a normal part of the curriculum, not a side note—and that understanding racial structures helps Christians navigate the world with wisdom, not blindness A rich, detail-filled conversation for anyone wanting to understand how Asian American evangelicalism took shape—and why Fuller has been more central to that story than most people realize. "Opening the Gates to Asia" by Jane Hong: https://uncpress.org/9781469653365/opening-the-gates-to-asia/ Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac. For information about our 10th anniversary gala, visit tinyurl.com/10yearsaac

To kick off our 10th anniversary micro-series celebrating the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, we sit down with Dr. Tim Tseng, Asian American church historian and director of the Asian American Christian History Institute (AACHI). Tim takes us back to 1972 and the founding of PACTS (the Pacific and Asian American Center for Theology and Strategies), tracing a lineage of Asian American Christian leadership that runs decades deeper than any single institution's anniversary can capture. The origins of PACTS: a 1972 gathering of Bay Area pastors trained in mainline Protestant seminaries who began questioning assimilation and erasure within their denominations The newly republished PACTS Reader, edited by Roy Sano and now available through Claremont Press—the story behind bringing this out-of-print, historically significant text back into circulation AACHI's mission and the "pearl divers" metaphor for surfacing hard-to-find Asian American Christian stories The Third World Liberation Front strikes at San Francisco State (1968) and the birth of ethnic studies as a backdrop to the Asian American Christian movement How the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power shaped Asian American Christian consciousness, and PACTS' relationship to (and distinction from) liberation theology The story of Mabel Lee, a pioneering unordained church leader and suffrage advocate in New York's Chinatown at the turn of the century The danger of "Columbusing"—claiming to discover ideas and movements that our elders were already engaging with over fifty years ago Tim's reflection on being forced out of theological academia in 2005, and what nearly 20 years in local church ministry taught him about listening to God's people at the grassroots We hope you enjoy this series! Tim Tseng https://aac.fuller.edu/post/person/timothy-tseng-phd/ The PACTS Reader (Claremont Press) https://claremontpress.com/uploads/3/4/8/4/34846481/theologies_of_asian_americans_and_pacific_peoples_final_.pdf https://claremontpress.com/theologies-of-asian-americans-and-pacific-peoples.html PACTS Archive https://cdm15837.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15837coll16 AACHI www.pearldive.net Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Bone Symphony—Poetry as Spiritual Practice: A Conversation with Michelle Phương Hồ Daniel and Yulee welcome Michelle Phương Hồ—a Vietnamese American poet based in New Haven and one of Daniel's former students at Fuller — for a conversation about her debut poetry collection, Bone Symphony (releasing October 13th, endorsed by Ocean Vuong). The conversation explores: How the book's title emerged from a single cacophonous poem weaving together her grandfather's experience in postwar Vietnamese reeducation camps, asylum testimony, and questions of public memory—and its resonance with Ezekiel's Valley of Dry Bones Why revision, for Michelle, is a spiritual practice—including the story of a poem addressed to "the enemy" that only became true once she recognized her own desire to win, rather than to love Her unconventional path into poetry: from a college Asian American writing collective, to narrative breaking down into fragments, to a formative writing class with poet Solmaz Sharif Why she believes she's writing to preserve a kind of remembering—drawing on a story about Vietnamese language surviving Chinese colonization through "a critical mass of rememberers" The necessity of leaving gaps in language—and why trying to fully explain grief or wonder can betray the experience itself Her unexpected, dramatic conversion story at a college church service in New Haven, after a season of spiritual searching that included a Buddhist meditation practice Navigating faith within a predominantly white Vineyard community—finding theological resonance in the integration of word and spirit, while wrestling with not fully belonging The poem "After Salvation" and the disorientation of being "rescued"—both as a refugee and as a Christian—without a clear roadmap for what comes next Writing prompts to borrow for your own journaling: Alexander Chee's "What don't you want to know?" and Bhanu Kapil's "Who is responsible for the suffering of your mother?" A reflective, generous conversation about poetry as a spiritual practice—and an invitation to anyone (poet or not) to bring more curiosity and surrender to their own writing and prayer life. Pre-order her book: https://boaeditions.org/book/bone-symphony/ Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Justice Work for the Long Haul: A Conversation with Steven Park Daniel and Yulee sit down with Steve Park, founder of Little Lights—a ministry that has spent almost 30 years serving children, youth, and families in underserved communities in Southeast D.C.—for a wide-ranging conversation about race, faith, and sustainable ministry. Topics covered: Steve's surprising road to faith: a devout atheist in college, a frightening drug experience, a season of vulnerability with a therapist, a breakthrough moment of compassion with his sister, and finally—fittingly—becoming a Christian through reading a comparative world religions book The origin of Little Lights: meeting an eighth grader who couldn't read a Dr. Seuss book, and the heartbreak that became the spark for a ministry Why Little Lights teaches anti-racism and "race literacy" classes rooted in scripture—and how interest in that teaching has shifted with the political climate, from post-Trayvon Martin to the George Floyd surge to today's pushback Unpacking the model minority myth: how U.S. immigration policy handpicked certain Asian immigrants for "honorary white" status, bypassing the redlining, segregation, and policing that shaped Black communities—and how that history gets erased into a story about "family values" alone The challenge and necessity of being a Korean American leader serving primarily in a Black community for decades—gaining trust, navigating being seen as an outsider, and inviting more Korean American Christians into the work A theology of anger: why Steve believes you can't fully love without it, and how to direct anger toward justice rather than letting it curdle into bitterness or depression Hard-earned lessons on healthy ministry growth—including advice from Bruce Main of Urban Promise about not getting desperate for help—and Steve's conviction that community health, not budget size or social media followers, should be ministry's true metric A glimpse into partnering in ministry with his wife, Mary, and raising a family while doing intense, emotionally demanding work A grounded, hard-won conversation from someone who has done the long, unglamorous work of cross-racial ministry for decades—and has the wisdom (and humility) to show for it. Little Lights: https://littlelights.org/ Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Beautiful, Disappointing, and Hopeful: A Conversation with Drew Hyun Daniel and Yulee sit down with Drew Hyun—founding and lead pastor of Hope Church New York, executive director of Emotionally Healthy Discipleship, and author of Beautiful, Disappointing, and Hopeful—for an honest conversation about the long, often painful road of emotional and spiritual transformation. Drew traces his journey back to a summer internship in Queens that changed everything: arriving expecting to learn urban ministry, and instead being introduced to Pete Scazzero's emerging framework of emotionally healthy discipleship. From there, the conversation moves into deeply personal territory: Drew's early skepticism and "Pharisee" posture toward inner work, and the slow unraveling of his neat theological categories through grief, 9/11, and family loss His complicated, healing relationship with his father—including the moment his father, after reading Drew's manuscript, wrote back: "I wish I could've been a better daddy" A painful, years-long falling out with mentor Pete Scazzero, and what it took to reconcile Why grief is often the hardest spiritual practice to access—illustrated by a story of Drew "losing it" while caring for his kids during his wife's medical emergency, and what that taught him about over-functioning as a trauma response How leaning into his own Korean American story—rather than erasing it—has shaped his leadership of a multiethnic church, and why "the most particular is the most universal" Practicing slow, embodied spirituality (Sabbath, silence, monastic rhythms) in the relentless pace of New York City What grounds his hope for the local church despite real reasons for disillusionment A vulnerable, unhurried conversation that's part theology, part memoir, and a good reminder that there's no shortcut to becoming whole. Emotionally Healthy Discipleship: https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/ Hope Church NYC https://www.hopechurchnyc.org/ Beautiful, Disappointing Hopeful: How Gratitude, Grief, and Grace Reflect the Christian Story by Drew Hyun https://faithgateway.com/products/beautiful-disappointing-hopeful-how-gratitude-grief-and-grace-reflect-the-christian-story?variant=42800680173704 Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Christ in the Abyss: A Conversation with Jean Neely Daniel and Yulee welcome Jean Neely—Korean American writer, writing instructor at Azusa Pacific University, and author of Christ in the Abyss—for a deeply personal conversation about faith, mental illness, and what it means to encounter God in suffering rather than be rescued from it. The conversation covers: Why Jean wrote the book: growing up in Korean American evangelical spaces (and broader U.S. Christian culture) where she rarely heard stories of unresolved, long-term suffering—and the toxic message that real faith should look like constant joy, certainty, and answered prayer A warm, nurturing church upbringing as a pastor's kid, paired with a self-critical, melancholic temperament that absorbed and amplified harmful theological messages Her parents' striking, unshaming response to her mental health struggles—including their reflection on a formative early trauma they felt responsible for A vivid, moving story: being sent to live with relatives in Korea as a baby, then flown alone to the U.S. at 22 months old after her aunt grew attached to her—and the lasting effects of that early separation (a story Yulee shares a striking parallel to from her own childhood) The long, hard-won process of trusting that Jesus is present in depression and doubt rather than disappointed by it—with help from her Aunt Miyong, a retired pastor, and contemplative writers like Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, and Henri Nouwen Why she now describes herself as more of a doubter than a believer, and what faith looks like when intellectual certainty isn't available A connection to Luther's Anfechtung and the idea that wrestling with God—not quiet submission—is at the heart of the biblical story (Israel as the one who wrestles with God) The unexpected comfort of contemplative spirituality: "silence is God's first language," and the idea that something is happening in prayer even when it isn't felt Sustaining daily practices: a prayer app, NYT word puzzles, checking in with friends by text, and unwinding with Korean dramas A fun detour into Jean's love of languages—French, Korean, and Arabic (including reading Harry Potter in Arabic to build vocabulary) A rich, honest conversation well-suited for church book groups—not just for those who've experienced mental illness, but for anyone wrestling with unresolved pain and wondering what kind of God they're dealing with. Jean’s book, Christ in the Abyss https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9798898020347_christ-in-the-abyss?srsltid=AfmBOooOGPjsC684nPN5r6fvEVXhQmEUOCpByiE-aVyV1qlbc3lwAh3f Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

In this episode of Centering: The Asian American Christian Podcast, Daniel and Yulee welcome back Kevin Doi—Assistant Professor of Asian American Church Studies and Director of the Asian American Pastoral Formation Initiative at the AAC—for a conversation about a question that’s been on Daniel’s mind: if we add up all our “spiritual” activities, they might only account for 5% of our lives. So where is God in the other 95%? Kevin pushes back on the sacred-secular divide many of us were discipled into, drawing on Ignatian spirituality and his mentors David Fitch and Wendy Farley to make the case that God isn’t contained in church spaces—the church exists in the world, and the world is where God is already present and active. How do we help people be attentive to the God who is everywhere, all the time? The conversation covers: Why the church is the container for worship, not the container for God’s presence How ordinary moments—feeding a baby, making pour-over coffee, dancing, rock climbing, having coffee with a coworker—can become contemplative practices when we simply notice God in them The danger of spiritual practices becoming the goal instead of the portal—when “did I read my Bible today” replaces the deeper question of whether we’re actually being transformed Reframing Luke 10: the “harvest” Jesus sends his followers into isn’t a metaphor for evangelism quotas, but literal life among literal people—meaning those of us “out in the world” in our jobs and neighborhoods are the lucky ones, not those cloistered in church offices The Prayer of Examen as a practice of gratitude and attentiveness, not a moral scorecard A vulnerable, hard-earned story: a moment Kevin didn’t stop for a woman on the sidewalk who needed help, and what that taught him about how “inconvenience” gets in the way of paying attention to God A reflective, practical conversation for anyone wrestling with how to experience God beyond Sunday mornings and quiet times—in the actual texture of an ordinary day.

In this episode, Daniel and Yulee welcome Jenn Suen Chen—author of Dim Sum and Faith and Yulee's Khora Collective co-founder—for a conversation about story, formation, and what it means to know yourself in God. The episode opens around the dim sum table itself: must-order dishes, the comfort of walking into a restaurant full of people who look like you, and why "dim sum" isn't a cute device for the book but the actual organizing metaphor—many small dishes, no single linear way to grow. From there, the conversation moves into the heart of the book. Jen talks about why the writing process pushed her toward deeper honesty, why spiritual formation isn't meant to be done alone, and how Psalm 139 became a recurring anchor—not as a tidy verse, but as an ongoing invitation to ask, "God, do you know me? Am I okay with who you made me to be?" Jen also opens up about: Living in China for 17 years as a Chinese American missionary, and the disorienting experience of "returning" to a homeland that didn't feel like home Channeling her "inner white woman" and what authenticity actually means—not a personality trait, but a fruit of formation The instinct to curate our own stories (including the story of her own family's immigration) and why we have to let go of the curated version to find the true one Encouraging young adults to know and tell their stories, and why age shouldn't determine who gets to be in the room An expensive, hard-won lesson about leadership, isolation, and the cost of not having mentors who could mirror her story back to her Jen closes with a charge to the Asian American Christian community: we are not meant to do this alone, and we need to be better at showing up for each other. Additional Resources: Khora Collective: https://www.khoracollective.com/ Dim Sum and Faith by Jenn Suen Chen https://www.ivpress.com/dim-sum-and-faith?srsltid=AfmBOoo64aWPyngRHw39Ci6jntFWi69AWTSsOFeiKWzS0Cs0jFmSwZ8N

In this episode of Centering the Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Daniel Lee and Yulee Lee sit down with church historian and theologian Dr. Kenneth “Ken” Woo, author of John Calvin, Refugee Theologian: Introducing a Reformer in Exile. Together, they explore what happens when one of Christianity’s towering Reformation figures is read through the eyes of an outsider, a refugee, and an Asian American. What if John Calvin—often caricatured as a cold, hyper-intellectual champion of predestination—was actually writing from the margins, as a displaced person longing for home? And what might that mean for Asian American Christians who have inherited and love the Reformed tradition, but have often met it in heavily “whitened” or de-contextualized forms? Through stories of family migration, pastoral ministry, and academic work, Ken shares how his own Chinese American refugee heritage reshaped the way he reads Calvin, and how reframing Calvin as a refugee can open space for Asian American believers to see themselves not as perpetual guests in the Reformed tradition, but as genuine heirs and contributors. Resources Mentioned John Calvin, Refugee Theologian: https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540963055_john-calvin-refugee-theologian Fuller’s Asian American Center - aac.fuller.edu Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

“The question ‘What are you?’… it’s a question that’s asked as a demand for this person in front of you to make themselves legible to you… ‘You don’t fit my categories; I don’t know what to do with you.’” In this episode of Centering: The Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Daniel Lee and Yulee Lee talk with Courtney Turner, chair of the Department of Global Studies and Assistant Professor of Intercultural and Global Studies at Southern Nazarene University, and a Research Fellow for Formation and Mixed Race Studies at Fuller’s Asian American Center. Drawing from her own story as a second-generation mixed race, fifth-generation Asian American, Courtney explores the complexity of mixed race identity, the pain of not being “enough” to belong, and how the church can better love and pastor mixed-identity Asian Americans (including mixed race, mixed ethnicity, and adoptees). The conversation also highlights the role of media representation, problematic questions like “What are you?”, and why language and formation spaces are crucial for healing. Resources Mentioned Kip Fulbeck, Part Asian, 100% Hapa – Photo and narrative project featuring mixed-race Asian Americans, including follow-up portraits years later to show how self-descriptions change over time. Bill of Rights for people of mixed heritage: https://www.apa.org/pubs/videos/4310742-rights.pdf Fuller’s Asian American Center - aac.fuller.edu Sign up to receive more updates from the AAC: https://aac.fuller.edu/newsletter/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac.

Peace and Forgiveness…For God’s Glory In the final episode of the season, Yulee and Daniel share personal reflections on their healing journeys and emphasize the necessity of having support systems, practicing discernment, and engaging in healthy spiritual leadership that aligns with the gospel of grace. They also touch upon the 'whisper network,' the importance of fruit of the spirit, and practical ways to foster accountability and challenge toxic behaviors in ministry. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:47 Personal Reflections and Listener Feedback 05:22 The Importance of Embracing Humanity 06:47 Evaluating Leadership and Power Dynamics 12:22 The Halo Effect and Leadership Pitfalls 20:19 DARVO and Toxic Leadership Responses 28:35 Receiving Feedback as a Leader 29:36 The Importance of Margins and Self-Care 30:10 Participating in Change and Addressing Toxicity 31:50 The Role of Integrity and Responsibility 33:34 Challenges of Speaking Up Against Toxic Leaders 42:46 The Whisper Network: Pros and Cons 48:16 The Importance of Community and Support 51:36 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

No Sabbath…For God’s Glory? This episode of Centering features a conversation with special guest Dr. Alex Jun, research professor of Korean American Ministry and Church Leadership Studies at Fuller Seminary, and director of the Asian American Center’s soon-to-be-launched Korean American Ministry initiative. With hosts Daniel and Yulee, the group delves into the concept of Sabbath and sabbaticals, examining common misunderstandings and the importance of rest for spiritual and community health. They discuss the role of cultural and parental influences on work ethics, the pitfalls of overwork, and how to honor personal limits. Personal anecdotes and practical advice for integrating restful practices into daily life offer listeners a path toward healthier spiritual leadership. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:56 Listener Stories and Toxic Church Culture 02:22 Special Guest: Alex Jun on Sabbath and Sabbatical 05:31 Misunderstandings of Sabbath 15:09 Cultural Perspectives on Work and Rest 18:26 Immigrant Experience and Work Ethic 24:38 Leadership and Rest in Ministry 27:33 The Struggle of Self-Worth and Leadership 28:14 The Reality of Sabbaticals and Leadership 29:15 Reforming Leadership Through Sabbath 30:40 The Messianic Complex in Leadership 32:52 The Challenge of Rest for Leaders of Color 35:19 Gender Dynamics in Leadership and Rest 36:41 The Model Minority Myth and Faith 44:11 Personal Practices for Sabbath and Rest 50:06 Concluding Thoughts on Sabbath and Humanity Critical Race Theory Centering season https://on.soundcloud.com/lwSbbDg462wyBQzqZD Serge - The Gospel-Centered Life https://serge.org/the-gospel-centered-life/ Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother by Amy Chua https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/battle-hymn-of-the-tiger-mother-amy-chua/1100154952 Khora Collective https://www.khoracollective.com/

Using People…For God’s Glory? In this episode of the Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee are joined by special guest Dr. Kevin Doi, Director of Pastoral Formation at the AAC and Affiliate Assistant Professor of Asian American Church Studies at Fuller Seminary. The conversation delves into the temptation to use people for ministry growth, the importance of honoring individual callings, and creating a church environment focused on relational health rather than numerical growth. The episode highlights practical strategies for both recognizing and countering toxic ministry practices in church leadership. 00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry 00:47 Understanding Toxic Ministry for God's Glory 02:29 Guest Introduction: Dr. Kevin Doi 04:23 The Familiarity of Oppression in Ministry 06:39 The Challenge of Healthy Boundaries 09:19 Rethinking Church Growth and Leadership 15:45 The Importance of Relational Ministry 25:11 The Role of Ministry Beyond Church Walls 25:57 Challenges of Church Leadership 27:12 Personal Experiences in Church Dynamics 29:29 The Pressure of Metrics in Ministry 32:20 Rethinking Church Leadership and Community 40:30 Practical Steps for Healthy Ministry 47:29 Concluding Thoughts and Next Episode Preview Asian American Pastoral Formation Initiative https://aac.fuller.edu/initiatives/pastoral-formation-initiative/ Leadership and the New Science by Margaret Wheatley https://margaretwheatley.com/books/leadership-and-the-new-science/ Fall 2026 Asian American Ministry Doctor of Ministry cohort, mentored by Dr. Kevin Doi and Dr. Daniel Lee https://fuller.edu/dmin/fall-2026-asian-american-ministry-cohort/ If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac