Advertise on podcast: Intended Consequences

Two roads diverged in the CRO industry. Brian Massey chose to keep his agency small. Sahil Patel runs Spiralize, one of the largest in the field, with more than 170 people. In this conversation, they compare notes across that divide. Sahil shares what he learned the hard way as a first-time CEO in healthcare tech, why CRO's horizontal market changed his thinking, and why a CEO's identity and business are so hard to pull apart. Then the conversation turns to AI. B2B sites have watched 20-30% of their organic traffic evaporate. Agent traffic may soon cross human traffic. And AI test-idea generators suffer from winner's curse. What surprised them both is how much they agree on what still works: measuring what people do rather than what they say, and showing up for customers in person.

AI can write website copy that outperforms 80% of what is online today. You just have to teach it who it is writing for. In this episode of Intended Consequences, Conversion Sciences founder Brian Massey shows you how to use AI to generate website copy that actually converts. The secret is not a better prompt. It is writing for the four ways people make buying decisions. You will learn the Modes of Research framework, first published in "Waiting for Your Cat to Bark," and how to map it onto Myers-Briggs types so any language model speaks your language. Then you will watch live rewrites that turn flat, jargon-filled copy into messaging built for Competitive, Methodical, Spontaneous, and Humanist visitors. By the end you can build your own AI messaging agent in ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini and let it do the rewriting for you. WHAT YOU WILL LEARN Why most B2B copy sounds the same and caps your conversion rate The four research modes and the buyer behind each one How to use Myers-Briggs as a shared vocabulary with any AI The simple prompt that teaches your chatbot to rewrite by mode How to generate personas straight from a URL How to A/B test copy that is finally different enough to win How to build a reusable AI messaging agent for your brand CHAPTERS 00:00 Why AI copy beats 80% of website copy 01:30 Styrofoam copy and the conversion ceiling 02:40 How our own biases sabotage copywriting 04:10 ICPs and the four-persona problem 05:40 Corner cases: copy big enough to A/B test 06:00 The 4 Modes of Research framework 06:50 Competitive and Methodical buyers 08:00 Spontaneous and Humanist buyers 09:30 Placing copy on the page by buyer mode 10:30 Why language models beat humans at this 11:20 Myers-Briggs as a shared language with AI 14:00 The simple prompt to train your chatbot 15:00 Generating personas from a URL (Calm.com) 17:40 Rewriting copy for each mode, live 24:00 B2B example: HR services, CHRO vs CFO 29:50 Laying out multiple voices on one page 31:00 Q&A: getting your team to trust AI copy 33:20 Building your own AI messaging agent 38:00 What is next: ad and landing page alignment 38:50 Q&A: CTAs, ad frequency, and brand salience RESOURCES Messaging skills and full prompts: https://conversion.science/msg-skills Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com Book: "Waiting for Your Cat to Bark" by Bryan and Jeffrey Eisenberg: https://conversci.com/catbark Roy H. Williams and the Wizard Academy: https://www.wizardacademy.org Subscribe for more on conversion optimization, AI, and the experiments behind what actually works. #AICopywriting #ConversionOptimization #CRO

Digital marketing is undergoing a seismic shift. In this episode, Brian Massey sits down with marketing strategist Andy Crestodina to explore how AI is becoming the "third partner" in every customer relationship—and what that means for your website and content strategy. Discover why traditional SEO tactics are losing effectiveness for top-of-funnel content, while bottom-of-funnel optimization matters more than ever. Andy reveals how to train AI models to recommend your brand, including practical tips on optimizing your website content, leveraging podcast transcripts, and balancing clarity with brand personality. Key takeaways include: Why AI visitors convert at higher rates than traditional traffic The dramatic difference between Google queries (4.2 words) and AI prompts (23 words) How to audit what AI "knows" about your brand—and fix misconceptions Whether to sacrifice creative content for AI-friendly clarity Why your LinkedIn newsletter might deliver 10x more visibility than SEO If you're wondering how to adapt your digital strategy for an AI-powered future, this conversation offers grounded, actionable insights you can implement today.

In this episode of Intended Consequences, Brian Massey sits down with Deborah O'Malley, founder of GuessTheTest.com, to explore the fast-changing world of AI in experimentation — from A/B testing myths to the ways AI is already changing how digital marketers approach conversion optimization.

Join us for "Beyond Data: How ChatGPT Uncovers Emotions to Fuel Effective Ad Concepts," a dynamic session exploring AI's transformative role in eCommerce marketing. Discover how ChatGPT leverages emotional sentiment analysis to go beyond numbers, capturing authentic consumer feelings to inspire creative ad strategies.  We will examine real-world examples, demonstrate actionable techniques, and discuss how emotional insights can drive winning ad concepts, compelling copy, and innovative campaign angles. This session empowers marketers to harness advanced AI tools, bridging the gap between data and human emotion to create powerful advertising campaigns. Unlock the secret to emotionally charged, results-driven advertising.

Google's document leak uncovered surprising connections between conversion rate optimization (CRO), search engine optimization (SEO) and user experience (UX). Listen in as Conversion Scientists® Joel Harvey and Brian Massey talk about these connections and what they mean for optimizers.

Conversion rate optimization (CRO) is important at every stage of your business. But not every website is ready for a full-team all-in conversion optimization team. You may not be able to do the A/B testing that is the hallmark of so many CRO projects. Here are conversion optimization techniques that work no matter where you are on the CRO spectrum.

Jason Fisher is a search engine optimizer who understands the value of having pages that convert well. He takes us through his strategy of bringing qualified search visitors to our site and then turning them into leads, sales, and revenue.

What would it look like if you could give your digital brand a human voice? On today's Intended Consequences, we brought in Rob Walch, VP of Podcaster Relations at Libsyn, the world's leading podcast hosting site. Rob was one of the earliest podcasters in the industry and a highly sought-after speaker and consultant in the podcasting community. Listen in as he shares some fascinating insights on the world of podcasting, the numbers involved, and how a semi-digital medium fits in a digital marketing context.  Quick Links:  Connect with Rob Learn more about Libsyn Follow Brian on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bmassey  Learn more about Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com/

Sales is a conversation, so how can you expect to sell if that conversation never happens, or doesn't happen fast enough? On today's show, Brian chats with Sammy James, CEO and founder of Speak2Leads, an automated lead response and follow-up tool.  Sammy is a sales and marketing guru with experience in media, radio, tech, and advertising. He understands the nuances of sales and the challenges marketers face when working with their sales teams, most importantly that salespeople are humans too, not cold-calling machines immune to rejection or sales inertia.  Listen in to hear the full conversation. Quick Links: Connnect with Sammy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sammyjames/ Learn more about Speak2Leads: https://www.speak2leads.com/ Follow Brian on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bmassey Learn more about Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com/

After almost four decades, I believe the best choice for another shot at a conversion is still that quaint old communication medium: email. Email still can't be beat for rich content, for conversations that feel one-to-one, and for getting another shot at a future customer. It's the original social media platform.  Liz Willits is a self-professed email marketing nerd, and the Senior Content Marketing Specialist at AWeber, one of the 'OG; email services. She has worked with some of the most successful marketers in the world to help them with their email marketing strategies.   Liz doesn't think you're sending too much on email, and she's got the data to prove it. If we're not sending too much on email, then what's keeping our email from being more productive? Listen in to hear her take.  Resources and links discussed: Connect with Liz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liz-willits/  Learn more about AWeber: https://www.aweber.com/  30-day Trial of AWeber: https://www.aweber.com/order.htm  AWeber Smart Designer: https://www.aweber.com/email-templates-smart-designer.htm?utm_source=awblog&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=smartdesigner&utm_content=blogcontent092619smartdesignerannouncement  Follow Brian on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bmassey  Learn more about Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com/

Erin Collis, Marketing and Communications Manager at Corradi USA, has a lot on her plate (as we suspect you probably do as well).  Most marketers are holding dozens of ideas in their minds, many of which are in opposition, and then these poor souls are expected to be creative and thoughtful amidst all of this. It's a barrier to a culture of experimentation in marketing, product development, and more. Listen in as Erin discusses the challenges of being a digital marketer in 2019. Resources and links discussed: Connect with Erin Learn more about Corradi USA Follow Brian on Twitter @bmassey  Learn more about Conversion Sciences

People like funnels because they provide us with some sense of progress in our marketing efforts, but the marketing funnel is under attack, especially in the B2B lead generation space. Carman Pirie (@pirie) is the co-founder of Kula Partners, an agency built to help leading manufacturers digitally transform marketing and sales to deliver more leads, close more prospects, and grow their competitive edge. The solutions that purport to step into the funnel's place come with their own baggage. The more interactions with someone, the more likely they are to be a prospect, right? However, this approach treats the funnel more like a swarm of flies. People seem to swarm around our content until, finally, and unpredictably, they qualify for a call. Carman believes there's something better than a funnel or a swarm, and his agency delivers that something better.  If digital marketing is a swarm, how is a swarm of bees different than a swarm of flies? Find out from Carman on this episode of Intended Consequences.  Resources and links discussed: Connect with Carman Learn more about Kula Partners Follow Brian on Twitter @bmassey  Learn more about Conversion Sciences

Lance Loveday (@loveday) is the founder and CEO of Closed Loop, a digital advertising agency that specializes in paid media management.  As an optimizer by nature, digital marketing comes naturally to Lance. He's analytical but also creative - he uses his left brain and his right brain.  In this episode of Intended Consequences, we discuss the tough questions to ask when bringing on external resources to solve your most important problems. Listen in as we explore how to find an agency relationship that gives you a competitive advantage.  Resources and links discussed: Follow Lance on Twitter @loveday Learn more about Closed Loop Follow Brian on Twitter @bmassey  Learn more about Conversion Sciences

Chris Mercer (@merecertweets) aka 'Mercer' is not only good at analytics, but he's also good at teaching analytics. That's what he spends his days doing as the Co-Founder of Measurement Marketing.io.  Chris and his team help people like you discover how to grow your business using tools like Google Analytics, Google Tag Manager, Google Data Studio and more. Essentially, Chris helps people get to know the numbers - to grow the numbers.  He is genuinely excited about analytics, and Google Analytics specifically. He is infectious. So, if you listen to this episode of Intended Consequences, you might get excited about analytics, too. How can anyone plug into Google Analytics? And where do you start? You'll be surprised by some of Chris' answers. Listen in.  Resources and links discussed: Follow Chris on Twitter @mercertweets Learn more about MeasurementMarketing.io Follow Brian on Twitter @bmassey  Learn more about Conversion Sciences