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Do you think you know the Watergate story? Most people know Watergate from All the President's Men: two reporters at The Washington Post and a president brought down. Far fewer know who the burglars were, why they went into the Democratic National Committee headquarters, or why some of the investigators still suspect the break-in was sabotaged from the inside. The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, the archival documentary from Shane O'Sullivan narrated by Harry Shearer, tells that story through the news footage, hearings, songs and movies of the Nixon era. In Episode 289, Christian sits down with Shane O'Sullivan, an Irish filmmaker and author based in London who heads Film and Photography at Kingston School of Art. Shane explains why he thinks Woodward and Bernstein get too much credit for solving Watergate, and why, in his telling, the FBI case agent and the federal prosecutor did the real investigating. He built the film from the Nixon Library's off-air news recordings, working mostly from London. Shane walks through how he wove movies like Medium Cool, The Conversation and The Ice Storm through the news footage and hearings, set the All the President's Men version of the burglary against real witness testimony, why Harry Shearer works as a bridge rather than a conventional narrator, and how fair use clearance counsel helped him justify long movie clips. He also lays out the questions that still hang over the break-in: the tape left on the doors, why James McCord, the Nixon campaign's own head of security, went in himself, and why anyone would take the risk when Richard Nixon was already ahead of George McGovern in the polls. WATCH THE FILM: The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play. In this episode, you'll learn: What Howard Hunt told the Cuban burglars to get them on boardHow a four-hour first cut became a 105-minute filmShane's advice for filmmakers: find an archive no one has fully used CHAPTERS 0:00 The Watergate Caper Trailer 2:49 From RFK to Nixon 7:46 All the President's Men Myth 13:49 Harry Shearer and Medium Cool 17:57 When Movies Mirrored Watergate 23:47 Archival Footage and Fair Use 30:05 Dick Cavett and Howard Baker 32:46 The 18½-Minute Gap 37:22 Was the Break-In Sabotaged? 43:56 Advice for Archival Filmmakers 48:43 Sherman's March and Remake FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How was the Watergate break-in discovered? A security guard found tape on the doors that kept the locks from latching. According to filmmaker Shane O'Sullivan, the guard thought little of it the first time, but when he came back later and found it again, he called the police, who went up and arrested the burglars. O'Sullivan says one of the key questions is whether the tape was left on purpose to sabotage the operation. Was the Watergate break-in sabotaged? Some of the investigators think it may have been. Shane O'Sullivan says FBI case agent Angelo Lano still believes James McCord or Howard Hunt made mistakes on purpose to expose Nixon. McCord, the Nixon campaign's head of security and a former head of physical security at the CIA, left tape on the doors and went in himself, knowing he would be identified if caught. O'Sullivan says the question is still open. How accurate is All the President's Men? Shane O'Sullivan calls All the President's Men one of his favorite films, but says people shouldn't take it as a literal primer on Watergate. In his view, Woodward and Bernstein get too much credit. He says the FBI case agent and the federal prosecutor did the investigating, and leaks to the press helped The Washington Post keep the story in the news. DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS Shane's picks are a Ross McElwee double bill. Sherman's March (1986) follows McElwee through the South in the path of General Sherman's march, an odyssey that Shane says opened up his mind about what a film could be. Remake (2025) is McElwee's newest film, about trying to remake Sherman's March as a fiction film and about his relationship with his son. Every guest pick is in one place. SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts Watch on YouTube SUPPORT THE SHOW Support Documentary First CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms Christian Taylor on LinkedIn ABOUT THE GUEST Shane O'Sullivan Shane O'Sullivan is an Irish filmmaker who has lived in London for 30 years. His films include RFK Must Die and Children of the Revolution. His book on the burglars, first published as Dirty Tricks: Nixon, Watergate and the CIA, is now The Watergate Burglars. He directed, produced and edited The Watergate Caper. The film | The book | LinkedIn | Instagram | X ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED Make Film History (BBC and BFI archive) Nixon Library WHCA video collection Photo of Fred Thompson and Howard Baker by a U.S. Senate photographer, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons. Photo of a Nixon White House tape recorder by Travis Wise, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons. Photo of Roscoe Lee Browne, Peter Bonerz and others reading the Watergate tape transcripts by Marianna Diamos, Los Angeles Times, CC BY 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

How do documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen? Hear it from the people who make them. In this trailer: Jonathan de Jong (Human Forever), Ken Burns, James L. Freedman (Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause), Susan Lacy (Billy Joel: And So It Goes) and Nick Bruckman (The Price of Milk). For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 5% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week. Follow so the next conversation finds you.

How do you find a film mentor when you don't know anyone in the business? Finding a film mentor with no connections can feel impossible, especially in documentary filmmaking. Documentary filmmaker James L. Freedman never used the words mentor or champion in his conversation with Christian Taylor. But listening back to Documentary First Episode 288, Christian heard the same thing again and again: door after door in his career opened because of a person. In this Deep Dive, she follows that chain of people, explains the difference between a mentor and a champion, and ends with seven places to look for a mentor in the film industry, even if you know no one. In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 288 with James L. Freedman, Christian traces how James, a longtime TV writer, found his way into documentary filmmaking. As a high school senior, he had produced Marty Glickman's late-night radio talk show on WNEW in New York. Decades later, his wife suggested he make a documentary about Glickman, and a friend he hadn't spoken to in six months called and turned out to be Lou Zamperini's next-door neighbor. When the finished film, Glickman, played the Santa Barbara Film Festival, Ari Emanuel of WME told James that Martin Scorsese should see it. The next day, James says, an email arrived: Scorsese was in, and he wanted to put it on HBO. Christian shares the documentary storytelling lessons James brought out of decades in writers' rooms, including his belief that "every single frame, every second, should have intent behind it." He keeps a folder of first impressions, does all of his own research, finds the spine of a story first and plants the payoff early, which Christian calls documentary storytelling at its finest. She also tells the story James told her about Scorsese's editing room, where Turner Classic Movies played with the sound off, and the story Scorsese has often told about his own mentor, John Cassavetes, who saw a rough cut of Boxcar Bertha, told him he was better than that kind of movie and pushed him to make something different. Scorsese's next film was Mean Streets. Then the money. Christian looks at how favors, donations and discounts helped James get archival footage he couldn't otherwise afford. James sees fair use as a gray area and tries to make it a darker gray. That is one filmmaker's experience, not legal advice. Finally, Christian names the mentors and champions in her own life: Ken Burns, who taught her through his films and his MasterClass long before he sat down with her on Episodes 208 and 209; one of her best friends, Sandy Gordon, who worked locations on Rudy and was consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom; Pam Tierney, who has worked side by side with her since they were non-union actors in Chicago; and Chad Gilchrist and Armin Korsos, younger filmmakers she produces with on Five Great Lakes. WATCH THE FILM: James's latest documentary, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play. FREE GUIDE: From Sitcoms to Scorsese, 37 lessons from James L. Freedman, free with your email. DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW: Every documentary Documentary First guests have recommended, in one place. In this episode, Christian explores: How did a party question, his wife and an old friend start James's first documentary?How did Glickman get from the Santa Barbara Film Festival to Martin Scorsese and HBO?What documentary editing tips did James bring out of decades in TV writers' rooms?Why does planting the payoff early make for better documentary storytelling?Who was Martin Scorsese's mentor, and what did he tell him about Boxcar Bertha?What kinds of mentors and champions does a filmmaker need, from Ken Burns to Sandy Gordon? CHAPTERS 0:00 One Phone Call, Then Scorsese 3:32 Mentor vs. Champion 5:59 Documentary Editing Tips 8:11 Archival Footage, Favors, Fair Use 11:14 Ken Burns and Other Teachers 14:33 Seven Places to Start Looking FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How do you find a film mentor with no connections? Christian Taylor suggests seven places to start: watch great documentaries; listen to people ahead of you through podcasts, interviews and classes; look at who is one or two people away from you; contact your local film office; join meetup groups, production alliances or a Women in Film chapter; volunteer on films and at festivals; and ask for one specific thing while offering something in return. She suggests picking one of the seven this week. What is the difference between a mentor and a champion? In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor describes a mentor as someone who teaches you over time, and a champion as someone who uses their name or position to open a door for you. In documentary filmmaker James L. Freedman's story, Ari Emanuel didn't teach him how to make a film, but he made sure the film got to Martin Scorsese. Christian says everyone needs both kinds of people. What did Martin Scorsese tell James L. Freedman about editing and narration? James L. Freedman says that when he saw Martin Scorsese's editing room, Turner Classic Movies was playing with the sound off. As James tells it, Scorsese said watching pictures without sound shows you how filmmakers choose to tell their story, and that it helps his editing. James also says that when he wondered whether HBO would want a celebrity to narrate Glickman, Scorsese told him, "No, I love your narration." LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts Watch on YouTube SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms Christian Taylor on LinkedIn ABOUT THE FILMS James L. Freedman James L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Zoe and Cybill. He wrote, directed and narrated three documentaries: Glickman (2013), executive produced by Martin Scorsese for HBO; Carl Laemmle (2019); and Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, distributed by Virgil Films. Website | X (the film) The Source Episode Charles Grodin Documentary: Comedy Star, Prison Crusader (Episode 288) Listen | Watch ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVE Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED Illinois Film OfficeKen Burns Teaches Documentary Filmmaking (MasterClass)Ken Burns on Documentary First, Episode 208Ken Burns on Documentary First, Episode 209 Photo of Martin Scorsese by Harald Krichel, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

Who was Charles Grodin when the cameras weren't rolling? Most people know Charles Grodin from Midnight Run, The Heartbreak Kid or Beethoven. Far fewer know that he spent the last 20 years of his life working to get women out of prison, and visited them every week. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, the Charles Grodin documentary from James L. Freedman, tells both stories. In Episode 288, Christian sits down with James L. Freedman, a longtime sitcom writer who came to documentary filmmaking late. A question at a party about the best job he ever had led to his first film, Glickman, which Martin Scorsese executive produced for HBO. For his third, Grodin's widow, Elissa Grodin, sent him seven boxes of archives, about a hundred hours of material, and James did all of the research himself. James explains why he wouldn't make "an hour of him being funny" with the activism saved for the end. Instead he seeded Grodin's conscience through the whole film: the class president who helped Black students in Pittsburgh, the 1969 Simon & Garfunkel television special that lost its sponsor, and the CNBC show that turned to social issues. James quotes Grodin's own line: "You don't want me to picket the governor's office, you want me to be in the governor's office." He also walks through how he hunted down archival footage, how an independent filmmaker got Robert De Niro, Steve Martin, Martin Short and Elaine May on camera, and how he keeps a budget down as, in his words, "one guy making this movie." WATCH THE FILM: Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play. James's film Carl Laemmle airs on TCM on Friday, October 23, at 8:00 p.m. ET. In this episode, you'll learn: Why James writes down his first impression of everything he likes, so he remembers how it first hit him after he's gone numb to itWhy he finds a story's spine first, and how he knew his opening and closing when he saw themHow the stars said yes, and why famous interviewees want to know who else is in the filmHow Elaine May changed her mind about an interview, and what she said after seeing the filmHow a Johnny Carson story became a Charles Bronson sequence, and why every second needs intentWhere to find archival footage when none seems to existHow fair use, donated clips, grants and paid festival screenings fit into a documentary budgetWhat surprised him most about Grodin: the weekly prison visits, and the father Grodin lost at 17 CHAPTERS 0:00 Midnight Run's Other Side 6:43 TV Writer Turned Filmmaker 12:24 Beginning, Middle and End 18:23 Getting De Niro and Elaine May 26:51 Charles Grodin on Johnny Carson 29:35 The Archival Footage Hunt 36:42 Narrating Your Own Documentary 39:43 Fair Use, Licensing and Costs 48:15 Scorsese's TCM Editing Trick 50:19 Weekly Prison Visits 53:54 Carl Laemmle Saved 300+ Refugees FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How did a small documentary get Robert De Niro, Steve Martin and Martin Short? Director James L. Freedman says his first two films helped: Elissa Grodin watched both before giving him her husband's story, then connected him with Robert De Niro and Steve Martin. He cold-called Martin Short. Freedman believes they agreed because they loved Charles Grodin, and that stars want to see other recognizable names in a film so they know they aren't being exploited. What did Charles Grodin do for prison reform? For the last 20 years of his life, Charles Grodin worked to get women out of prison, most of them mothers of color with young children who had been caught in police stings. Director James L. Freedman says Grodin visited them every week, and a friend who saw him after those visits said he would come away a broken man, crying. As Freedman tells it, Grodin believed he could do more inside the governor's office than picketing outside it. How do independent documentary filmmakers keep costs down? James L. Freedman doesn't pay himself for his time, so he does the slow work himself: all of his own research and his own calls to studios. He asks rights holders to donate clips and photos, and when he has to pay, he asks for a discount, reminding them he is one filmmaker, not a corporation. When something unavoidable costs more, like a hotel suite for an interview, he makes the money back by spending less elsewhere. How do you find archival footage for a documentary? Director James L. Freedman does his own research and calls it a scavenger hunt. With no footage of Lovers and Other Strangers, the Broadway play Charles Grodin directed, he Googled every name in the Playbill and found a scene on The Ed Sullivan Show. For Glickman, he slowed a two-second newsreel shot to four seconds, and a snowy VHS tape led him to an old Paramount newsreel on nitrate film that came back crystal clear six months later. DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS James's pick: Carl Laemmle (2019), his own second film, about the founder of Universal Studios, who helped more than 300 refugees escape Nazi Germany. It's on Amazon now. James says Glickman, his first film, comes to Fandango at Home by year's end. Need a doc for date night? Browse every guest pick on our DocuView Deja View page. SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6e27d4 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn ABOUT THE GUEST James L. Freedman Writer, director and narrator, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause James L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Cybill, where he was also a co-producer, and Zoe, Duncan, Jack & Jane. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, his third film, is distributed by Virgil Films. Website: https://charlesgrodinfilm.com X (the film): https://x.com/ChuckGrodinFilm ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED TCM Films on Film schedule

What does The Velveteen Rabbit, a 1922 children's book about a stuffed toy, have to do with old home movies and AI? In Margery Williams' classic story, an old toy called the Skin Horse tells a stuffed rabbit that being real isn't about how you are made. It is something that happens to you when you are loved for a long time. In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian Taylor follows that idea from the nursery to old home movies, the scratchy 8mm reels families shot for decades, and asks what it means to keep things real now that tools can make footage of things that never happened. In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips from the 1930s to the 1980s, Christian picks up on something Phil told her. Stockfilm keeps the scratches and the dust, because they make the footage feel original and real. That sent her back to Christmas Day, 1986, in her family's home in Arlington, Virginia. She was 17. Her little sister Annie, then three, had been given The Velveteen Rabbit as a book and cassette, read by Meryl Streep with George Winston playing the music underneath. Annie fell asleep in her lap. Christian kept listening, had never heard the story before, and found herself crying. It became her favorite story to read to children. From there, Christian brings the Skin Horse's idea back to Phil's archive. Phil has seen hundreds of Christmases on those reels and thinks of himself as a steward of these people's lives. Christian looks at why that kind of real matters more now that AI can show a face that never existed or a moment in history nobody was there to see, and at Phil's clear line: the footage itself stays 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. She shares why she has spent weeks setting up a NAS, network-attached storage, at home: she doesn't want to lose years of work, and the RAID drive holding her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom is failing. She also talks about why so many people want to own the album or the CD again instead of licensing it. She closes with practical steps for anyone with a box of old reels in the closet, and with the end of the rabbit's story, where his spots still show through. In this episode, Christian explores: Hearing The Velveteen Rabbit for the first time on Christmas Day, 1986Why, once you are real, shabbiness doesn't matterWhy imperfection can be what makes an audience believe a filmWhy Christian is setting up a NAS while the RAID drive holding her film is failingOwning a movie or an album versus licensing itWhat Phil sees again and again on old reels: people dancing together CHAPTERS 0:00 The Velveteen Rabbit, Christmas 1986 4:21 What Is Real? The Skin Horse 6:34 Scratches, Dust and AI Footage 9:40 Why Physical Media Still Matters 13:50 The Splendid New Bunny FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS What is the Skin Horse's quote about being real in The Velveteen Rabbit? In Margery Williams' 1922 book, the old Skin Horse tells the Rabbit that "Real isn't how you are made" and that "It's a thing that happens to you." A toy becomes real when a child loves it for a long time, not just to play with. By then most of its hair has been loved off and it is shabby, but, as the Skin Horse says, once you are real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand. Why do filmmakers leave the scratches and dust in old home movies? Phil Maher, who founded Stockfilm, keeps his footage as close to the original as he can, scratches included. He says those marks make footage feel original and real, and show that this is how it looked. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor argues the imperfection is sometimes the very thing that lets an audience believe a film, and suggests filmmakers leave the scratches in when they tell the truth. How do you preserve old home movies and film reels? Start by not throwing them out. Phil Maher of Stockfilm says that is how many family memories get lost: reels sit in a closet in a format nobody knows how to play, until someone tosses them. Get them digitized, but keep the originals, and keep them away from heat and humidity. Then store copies in more than one place. Phil keeps three: on-site, in the cloud, and off-site with no internet connection. Who narrated the 1985 recording of The Velveteen Rabbit? The 1985 Rabbit Ears Productions recording of The Velveteen Rabbit was narrated by Meryl Streep, with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette. Christian Taylor first heard it on Christmas Day, 1986, when her little sister Annie, then three, was given the set as a gift. Annie fell asleep, but Christian, then 17, kept listening and has read the story to children ever since. Should filmmakers tell audiences when they use AI to recreate history? Yes, according to Phil Maher, founder of the home movie archive Stockfilm. He uses AI to date and search footage, but he keeps the footage itself 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a moment in history, he says, the audience should be told what is real and what isn't. Christian Taylor agrees, and adds that viewers will likely trust the film more for it. LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6bcd99 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor ABOUT THE TOPIC The Velveteen Rabbit The Velveteen Rabbit, or How Toys Become Real, was written by Margery Williams and first published in 1922 with illustrations by William Nicholson. It is in the public domain in the United States and free to read through Project Gutenberg. The 1985 Recording Rabbit Ears Productions released The Velveteen Rabbit in 1985, narrated by Meryl Streep with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette. Phil Maher and Stockfilm Phil Maher founded Stockfilm in 2015, after digitizing his grandfather's 8mm home movies. Stockfilm licenses real 8mm and Super 8 home movie footage from the 1930s through the 1980s, keeps every physical reel after scanning, and uses AI to search and catalog the archive, never to alter the footage. Website: https://stockfilm.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootage The Source Episode Archival Footage: Why Use Home Movies?, Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher Listen: https://pod.fo/e/699995 Watch: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4 ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED The Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams (Project Gutenberg): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11757 The Velveteen Rabbit, Rabbit Ears Productions recording, 1985 (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Velveteen_Rabbit_(album)

What happens to a family's home movies when no one knows what to do with them? Phil Maher was a software engineer looking for a sense of purpose when he started watching his grandfather's family reels and saw his father and his brothers, a big Irish Catholic family in Chicago. He kept going. Some families sold him their reels; others gave them so their family would be remembered. "Everyone's lost to history except the few elites that make it through history and are remembered," Phil says, and he wanted to be "a steward to these people's lives," down to their vacation trips, Halloween costumes and Christmases. Those home movies, the 8mm and Super 8 reels families shot from the 1930s through the 1980s, are archival footage that adds texture and emotion without narration having to explain it. In Episode 287, Christian sits down with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips. Since 2015, Phil has built a library of archival footage that filmmakers can search and license. Stockfilm keeps every scratch and flaw on purpose, and it keeps the physical reel after every scan. Phil walks through how a reel becomes a licensable 4K clip: cleaning, splicing, scanning, and dating footage with no label by reading the cars and clothes in the frame. He explains vinegar syndrome and why one decaying reel can damage the reels stored beside it. Christian and Phil take on footage houses that charge for public domain Signal Corps film and draw a firm line on AI. Stockfilm uses it to search and catalog the archive, never to change a frame. As Phil puts it, "We can prove every frame that we have, because we have it." Christian also shares 1947 home movies of Carentan, Normandy, shot by the father of Yves Marchais, whose story is at the center of her film in production, Heroes of Carentan. The conversation turns to physical film versus cloud storage, and Christian brings up the Nine PBS case. In March 2026, the St. Louis public television station lost access to more than 50 terabytes of its archive, 70 years of its history, when its cloud storage vendor cut off access. It backs up Phil's point that the cloud can go away, because you do not really own it. In this episode, you'll learn: How one family's 8mm reels became a searchable archiveWhy you should keep the physical reel after digitizing itWhy physical media belongs in a real backup plan CHAPTERS 0:00 A Grandfather's 8mm Became Stockfilm 9:28 Racing to Save Fading Film 13:18 How Do You Date Unlabeled Reels? 18:38 What Is Vinegar Syndrome? 20:56 Is Public Domain Footage Free? 23:36 Why Home Movies Move Audiences 27:18 Smoking, Dancing, Forgetting to Smile 32:34 AI in Documentary Filmmaking 35:02 Cloud or Physical Media? 39:08 Donating Your Family Archive 42:44 Dawson City: Frozen Time FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS Why use home movies as archival footage in a documentary? Home movies capture ordinary life the way it actually looked, scratches and all. Stockfilm founder Phil Maher says filmmakers turn to them when they want texture and emotion, something real that doesn't need narration to explain it. In his words, "A few seconds of just showing someone a place and time can really just get people into that spot and really create that moment that connects with the audience." Where can I find free archival footage for a documentary? Much U.S. government footage, including World War II Signal Corps film, is free through the National Archives and the Library of Congress. Christian Taylor points out that commercial footage houses often charge download and license fees for that same public domain material. Doing the research yourself takes longer, but it can save an independent film real money. How do you date old home movie footage with no label? Start with the clues inside the frame. Phil Maher of Stockfilm explains that cars are one of the best markers, because a shot can't predate the model year of a car that appears in it. Clothing narrows it further. Today AI image recognition helps suggest dates and keywords, but the footage itself is never altered. What is vinegar syndrome in old film? Vinegar syndrome is the breakdown of acetate safety film, the stock used for most 8mm and Super 8 home movies. As it degrades, the film gives off a vinegar smell, warps, shrinks and dries out. Phil Maher warns it can spread almost like a mold to reels stored nearby, so separate affected film and keep it away from heat and humidity. Should documentaries label AI-generated historical footage? Yes, according to Phil Maher. Stockfilm uses AI to search and catalog its archive but never to alter the footage, because the footage is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a historical battle or event, Maher says the audience needs to be told it is AI-created, a fictional rendition of what may or may not have happened. DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS Phil's pick: Dawson City: Frozen Time (2016), directed by Bill Morrison, built from more than 500 silent-era reels dug out of the Yukon permafrost in 1978. SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/699995 Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4 SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor ABOUT THE GUEST Phil Maher Founder, Stockfilm Phil Maher holds a computer science degree from Illinois State University and spent his career as a software engineer. He founded Stockfilm in 2015 and has spent more than a decade collecting, scanning and cataloging family reels. Email: [email protected] Website: https://stockfilm.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootage ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED National Archives: https://www.archives.govLibrary of Congress: https://www.loc.govDawson City: Frozen Time (Bill Morrison, 2016): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5215486/Nine PBS lawsuit (Current): https://current.org/2026/08/nine-pbs-sues-iron-mountain-over-blocked-access-to-archival-data/

Do you have a documentary, or do you have a Wikipedia entry? Somebody decides whether your documentary gets made. Sophia Dilley is one of those people. She runs Concord Originals, the division behind Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. on HBO, and she is Co-President of RKO, which Concord bought in June 2025 along with more than 5,000 titles including King Kong, Citizen Kane and It's a Wonderful Life. In this episode she gives away the three questions she asks before her team commits to anything. In Episode 286, Christian sits down with Sophia Dilley, Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO, to talk about how a project gets chosen, how to reach out to someone far above you, and how music rights for film work when the budget you have is the only budget there is. The spine of the conversation is a question Dilley asks before her team commits to anything: is this a Wikipedia story we're telling? If the whole thing is already available in twelve seconds of searching, there may not be a film in it. Around that sit her two other threshold questions, a working answer to why the documentary business feels impossible right now, and the plainest reassurance in the episode. "It's scary," she says. "It's scary for everybody." Along the way: a punk band that played CBGB's, a production designer father who left for set at four forty-five in the morning, Roger Deakins as a case study in how to write to someone you admire, and the difference between distribution rights and derivative rights, which is the thing almost everyone (including Christian!) got wrong about the RKO deal. If you have ever been told that music rights for film are impossible on an independent budget, she has a different answer. In this episode, you'll learn: The three questions Sophia Dilley asks before committing to any storyHow to tell whether you have a film or a Wikipedia entryWhat to say to a music company when the budget you have is the only budget there isWhy a rejection is usually about the marketplace rather than about your filmHow to open a door with someone you admire without being, in her words, a scary, creepy fanWhat it looks like inside a company that generates most of its projects out of its own catalog CHAPTERS 0:00 What Concord Actually Bought With RKO 5:34 From CBGB's to Running a Studio Division 11:42 Reaching Out to People Above You 16:32 Why Distribution Is Scary for Everybody 21:26 Who Are You Really Competing With? 26:02 Music Rights for Film: Sync and Publishing 29:49 Why a Doc Takes Five Years 34:54 How Does She Decide What Gets Made? 41:44 Women, Allies, and Your Replacement 46:05 What if You Can't Afford the Song? 50:05 Closing Argument and DocuView Deja View FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How do you get music rights for a documentary? You need permission from more than one owner. The song belongs to a publisher and the specific recording belongs to a label, so most documentaries need both a sync license and a master use license. On Stax: Soulsville U.S.A., that meant clearing more than thirty artists, multiple publishers and several estates. Concord Originals EVP Sophia Dilley says the first step is acknowledging you need those rights before you build the film around them. What if I can't afford to license a song for my film? Call anyway, and be honest about the budget. Sophia Dilley advises independent filmmakers to say who they are, name what the film was made for, show the actual scene the song would sit under, and ask directly for help. "Behind every door at every music company, there are real people," she says. A studio with a real budget cannot use that approach. A genuine independent often can. How long does it take to make a music documentary? Longer than most filmmakers expect. Sophia Dilley of Concord Originals puts the average at five years, at least. Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. began in 2018, when a colleague walked into her office with the story, and premiered on HBO in May 2024. Much of that time goes to music rights, estates and publishers rather than to production, because every stakeholder connected to the music has to be brought on side first. Who owns RKO now? Concord Originals acquired RKO Pictures in June 2025, but the deal is narrower than it sounds. Distribution rights to the classic RKO library remain with Turner. What Concord bought are the derivative rights, meaning remakes, sequels, prequels, story and stage rights to more than 5,000 titles the studio produced in-house. Sophia Dilley serves as Co-President of RKO, which continues to operate under Concord Originals. DOCUVIEW DEJA VU PICKS Sophia Dilley's picks: New York Doll (2005), directed by Greg Whiteley. A deep cut about Arthur "Killer" Kane of the New York Dolls and his search for his own history. Dilley notes that Whiteley went on to make Cheer, and the warmth is already here.Science Fair (2018), directed by Cristina Costantini and Darren Foster. She saw it at SXSW, where it won the Audience Award. Teenagers at the international science fair, and, in her words, so much magic in following a real human story. SPONSORED BY This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. Over 25 years of distribution experience, from Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo to Forks Over Knives and Speed is Expensive. If you are a filmmaker having trouble with distribution, talk to Virgil. LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen on any podcast app: https://pod.fo/e/5ffe38 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor ABOUT THE GUEST Sophia Dilley is Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO. Concord hired her in 2018 to build a content strategy, and in 2021 she launched Concord Originals, the company's film and television division. Her father was a production designer, so she grew up on movie sets watching what the work actually costs. Before film, she thought she would go into music: piano, violin, voice lessons, and a punk band in high school that played CBGB's in New York. ABOUT CONCORD ORIGINALS Concord Originals is the film and television arm of Concord, developing screen stories out of one of the largest independent music and theatrical catalogs in the world. Most of its projects are self-generated, which Dilley describes as the division's whole remit: take what is already under the roof and find a new life for it. Because the catalog is the source, music rights for film sit at the center of nearly every project the division takes on. Recent and upcoming work discussed in this episode: Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. (HBO, 2024), the four-part series directed by Jamila Wignot. Peabody winner, nominated for two Emmys.Billy Preston: That's the Way God Planned It (2026), directed by Paris Barclay, in theaters through Abramorama.Pretty Ugly: The Story of the Lunachicks (2026), directed by Ilya Chaiken, brought to Concord by Betsy West and Julie Cohen.Films on Billie Holiday, Cyndi Lauper, Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop, and Creedence Clearwater Revival, with Robert Johnson and Fania Records on the way. ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED Soulsville U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records by Rob Bowman, the book behind the film: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2775862Documentary First Episode 277, Teddy Cannon on music rights and licensing, the other side of this conversation: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

Who finishes your film if you can't? Andre N. Jackson had never made a film. He had twenty years in technology and security, an idea that arrived while he was sitting in a barber's chair, and no way into the industry. He finished the film anyway, and he came on the show with three lessons for other filmmakers. Two more came out while we were talking. In Episode 285, Christian sits down with first-time filmmaker Andre N. Jackson to talk about "Beyond Banners," his film about the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. Over a twenty-year run the team reached twelve state championships and won more than any high school in the state. The film starts there and ends up somewhere else entirely. Andre puts it plainly: "I actually learned about filmmaking through making a film." The spine of the conversation is what it takes to make a documentary when nothing is set up in your favor. Andre leaned on the research and analysis skills he built as an intelligence analyst, cold-called a Hall of Fame coach, funded it through a fiscal sponsor, used AI as a second brain, and kept going through two heart attacks in three days, the second while he was still in the hospital. Along the way the film became a story about stewardship, about the people who stayed, and about what the commercialization of youth sports is doing to community public schools. In this episode, you'll learn: How an idea that arrived in a barber's chair became a finished film with no film school behind itWhat a fiscal sponsor is, and how the Southern Documentary Fund made donors want to giveWhat two heart attacks in three days taught him about succession, and what he changed the week he got out THE FIVE LESSONS Lean into your superpowersGet comfortable taking calculated risksGet creative about filling gapsPlan for your absenceUse AI as a second brain CHAPTERS 0:00 No Film School, No Connections 3:16 How Do You Fund a First Documentary? 6:09 When a Team Becomes a Town 11:53 The Cost of Commercializing Youth Sports 18:58 Planning for Your Own Absence 24:37 AI as a Second Brain 29:16 Cold Calling a Hall of Fame Coach 33:45 Why the Collective Should Matter FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How do you make a documentary with no film school? Lean into the skills you already have and hire for the ones you do not. Andre N. Jackson spent twenty years as an intelligence analyst, so he built his film on research and relationship building, the two things he was already good at. Then he deliberately recruited crew members who covered his gaps in craft and experience. He learned filmmaking by making a film, not before making one. How do you fund a documentary with no industry money? A fiscal sponsor is the most common route. It is a 501(c)(3) that sits between your project and your donors, so contributions become tax deductible and donors have a reason to say yes. Andre used the Southern Documentary Fund. You apply, you are accepted, you onboard, and then you can offer donors a tax break for backing your film. He combined that with personal funds and direct fundraising. How do you get well-known people to be in your documentary? Cold call them, and be specific about who you both know. Andre landed Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith by reaching out directly and naming a mutual connection to establish trust. He got Wake Forest star Randolph Childress through a warm introduction from a Gwynn Park alumnus. The pattern is the same either way: ask, and use the relationships your relationships already have. What happens to your documentary if you cannot finish it? Plan for your absence before you need to. After two heart attacks during production, Andre started documenting what had only ever lived in his head and briefed his executive producer and his producer on the next steps, so the film could be completed whether or not he was there. Contingency planning in film usually means backup drives. It should also mean succession. Can AI help you make your first documentary? Andre used it three ways: to learn the end-to-end production process he never went to film school for, to generate an animated reenactment of a co-protagonist who had died and left almost no footage behind, and as a second brain that challenged his assumptions and pressure-tested his interview questions. He was clear it supplemented human mentorship rather than replacing it. DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS "Undefeated" (2011), directed by Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. Andre's direct inspiration for making "Beyond Banners.""The Last Dance" (2020), ESPN and Netflix. Andre is a Michael Jordan fan and names it as the film that came before Undefeated for him. SPONSORED BY This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. Virgil Films Entertainment ABOUT THE GUEST Andre N. Jackson is a first-time documentary filmmaker based in Fairfax, Virginia, who wrote and directed "Beyond Banners." He spent twenty years in technology and security, including work as an intelligence analyst on cybersecurity and terrorism issues, and is a 1998 graduate of Gwynn Park High School, the subject of his film. ABOUT THE FILM "Beyond Banners" is directed by Andre N. Jackson and follows the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. In the words of the film's own logline: a son returns to his alma mater to carry his father's coaching legacy, only to discover that the winning tradition he grew up in was built for a world that no longer exists. Website: https://beyondbannersdocumentary.com Instagram: @beyondbannersdocumentary ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED Southern Documentary Fund, fiscal sponsorship: https://southerndocumentaryfund.orgJames Hawkins, book on Gwynn Park's 1968 to 1970 state championship three-peatMarquis Smalls, writer, director and producer, Street Dreams Films, Brooklyn, New York: https://streetdreamsfilms.comHiggsfield, the AI tool used for the animated reenactment LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/562e4c Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

When did your audience stop being people and become a number? Most independent films and podcasts do not fail because the work is bad. They fail because no one ever felt like they belonged to them. This Deep Dive is about how to build an audience for your documentary before it is ever released, and the one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you make. In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 284 with Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong, host Christian Taylor takes the idea at the heart of his film “Human Forever,” the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history, and follows it somewhere unexpected: the same thing that makes dementia care humane is the thing that built his audience. The spine of the episode is a single word, belonging. Jonathan says the most dangerous part of dementia is not the diagnosis, it is the feeling of not belonging. Christian tests that idea against her own father’s move into memory care this month, then turns it on filmmakers through Martin Buber’s 1923 book “I and Thou” and the difference between treating a person as an “It” and meeting them as a “Thou.” The through line: build belonging before you build buzz. In this episode, Christian explores: Why the feeling of not belonging is the most dangerous part of dementia, in Jonathan de Jong’s own wordsThe one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you makeHow Jonathan built an audience for “Human Forever” before a single frame was shotWhy building a movement beat marketing a filmWhat belonging looks like in one real room, on her father’s move dayMartin Buber’s “I and Thou” and the difference between an It and a ThouHow filmmaking goes wrong the moment your audience becomes a numberWhy you invite people to belong instead of reaching for themThe question to ask about anyone you put in front of your cameraWhat a documentary about dementia can teach any filmmaker about reach CHAPTERS 0:00 The Secret That Keeps an Audience 2:04 The Most Dangerous Feeling 5:16 The People and the Plan 7:53 Build Belonging Before Buzz 11:26 Meet Them, Don’t Aim FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How do you build an audience for a documentary before it is released? You build belonging first. Jonathan de Jong built a movement around “Human Forever” before the film existed, a real person at the center and bestselling books out in the world, so audiences already felt part of something by release. The lesson for any filmmaker: make people feel they belong to what you are doing long before you ask them to watch, buy, or share it. What is the best way to market a documentary with no budget? Stop marketing and start including. Invite people into the mission instead of aiming promotion at them. When an audience feels seen and part of the story, they carry it for you. Belonging spreads a film further than any ad spend, which is why Jonathan filled theaters for a film about dementia without a marketing war chest. What is Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” about? “I and Thou,” published in 1923, describes two ways of relating to another person. You can treat someone as an “It,” a thing to manage, a number, a problem to handle. Or you can meet them as a “Thou,” a whole person, encountered directly. Buber argued that real life is found in the “Thou,” in genuine meeting rather than use. Why do people stop watching independent films and podcasts? Because they can feel when a creator is aiming something at them instead of making something for them. The moment an audience becomes a view count or a click to convert, the work loses the sense that it was made for real people. People stay when they feel met and included, and they drift when they feel handled. ABOUT THE FILMS AND TOPIC “Human Forever” is a documentary directed by Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong through SUPER7EVEN Productions. It follows the young dementia-care nurse Teun Toebes as he lives among and travels the world alongside people with dementia, and it became the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The film is one piece of a larger movement that also includes Teun’s bestselling books and the Article 25 Foundation he co-founded. Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch filmmaker and author who builds socially focused stories, and the guest on Documentary First Episode 284. SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com. Film: https://human-forever.com. Teun Toebes is a nurse, humanitarian activist, and bestselling author who has spent years living inside dementia wards around the world. https://www.teuntoebes.com. ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. RESOURCES MENTIONED “Human Forever” (film), Jonathan de Jong, SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://human-forever.comSUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.comTeun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.comMartin Buber, “I and Thou” (Ich und Du), 1923 Documentary First Episode 284 with Jonathan de Jong: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1 LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/53fafc Watch on YouTube: @DocumentaryFirst SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

How do you fund a documentary when the whole industry says no? How do you fund a documentary without film funds, grants, or a commissioning broadcaster, and still reach a huge audience? Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong did exactly that with Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The government pulled his funding two and a half years into production, and he still finished the film, built a movement, and put it in cinemas around the world. In Episode 284 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor sits down with Jonathan de Jong, director of Human Forever and founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions, to talk about how independent filmmakers actually fund, build an audience for, get access for, and produce a documentary that people see. Jonathan's whole approach starts from one idea: build the audience before the film exists. He grew a following through a bestselling book, The Housemates, a touring theater show, and his protagonist, the young nurse Teun Toebes, before the movie ever premiered. He funds outside the traditional market by partnering with mission-aligned organizations, he earns fly-on-the-wall access by investing years of unhurried time, and he made a hard subject impossible to look away from. In his words, “we made dementia sexy.” In this episode, you'll learn: Why Jonathan approaches every film as a product, not only a passion projectHow partnering with mission-aligned organizations can both fund and distribute your filmThe “be Switzerland” method for directing a subject to get honest, real reactionsHow to keep a film earning and touring years after its releaseWhy treating a serious subject with warmth beats treating it as only seriousWhat the record-breaking success of Human Forever teaches about impact over views CHAPTERS 0:00 Breaking In Without Film School 5:06 Finding a Story Worth Telling 7:24 Build the Audience Before Release 12:21 When the Funding Fell Through 15:18 You Can't Buy Happiness 20:33 What Moldova Taught Him 26:47 Making the Camera Invisible 30:30 Directing a Neutral Protagonist 37:17 How Do You Get Access? 42:28 Where Does the Money Come From? 47:38 He Made Dementia Sexy Frequently Asked Questions How do you fund a documentary without grants or film funds? Partner with mission-aligned organizations. Jonathan de Jong funds his films by teaming with social organizations, foundations, and local and national governments that care about the subject. Each contributes a smaller amount, and together they add up to a full budget. Because those partners also have large audiences, they become the film's first ambassadors, so the same partnership that funds the film also helps get it seen. How do you get access to film inside hospitals or care facilities? Invest time and build trust before the camera rolls. Jonathan spent years present without filming, and left the camera in the room so people grew used to it. Family members had to sign consent, and because his protagonist Teun Toebes was a trusted figure in dementia care, facilities welcomed the crew. Access came from relationships and patience, not from official fixers. How do you build an audience for a documentary before it comes out? Start years early and grow the audience alongside the film. Jonathan built a following through a bestselling book, a touring theater show, and social media, and he turned his protagonist into a recognized voice in the field. By the time Human Forever premiered, the audience and a network of ambassadors already existed, so the film became, in his words, the cherry on top. How do you produce a documentary in multiple countries? Work through the local community, not official fixers. Jonathan connects with people already working in the subject area, who bring in local governments and organizations to arrange permits and logistics. He keeps a small, lean crew that can move fast, and he builds a network of ambassadors in each country. That is how he filmed across eleven countries during a pandemic. DocuView Déjà Vu Jonathan's documentary pick is Searching for Sugar Man, which he calls one of the best documentaries ever made and a reminder of what the power of storytelling can do. Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil Films helps filmmakers get their work in front of audiences on every major platform. Learn more at https://www.virgilfilms.com/. About the Guest Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch documentary filmmaker and the founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions. He directs socially driven films that reach big audiences, and he is best known for Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. Website: https://supersevenproductions.com SUPER7EVEN Productions is Jonathan de Jong's Netherlands-based company, making impact-driven documentaries on pressing social issues. Human Forever premiered around a 2023 G20 summit and is now used in more than 40 universities, including Yale and Oxford, with a US broadcast coming to PBS. Jonathan's next films explore strong communities and addiction. About Human Forever and Teun Toebes Human Forever follows Teun Toebes, a young care ethicist dubbed the “Greta Thunberg of healthcare,” who moved into the closed ward of a nursing home at 21 and traveled across four continents and eleven countries to ask how we can give people living with dementia a better quality of life. Teun's book, The Housemates, was a number one bestseller in Denmark and has been translated into English, German, Italian, and Arabic. Website: https://www.teuntoebes.com. About Documentary First Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. Resources Mentioned Human Forever (film): https://www.teuntoebes.com/human-foreverSUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.comTeun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.comThe Housemates, book by Teun Toebes https://septemberpublishing.org/product/the-housemates-pb/ Connect With the Guests Jonathan de Jong: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/7onathandejong, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-de-jong-07b670bTeun Toebes: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/teuntoebes, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/teuntoebes Listen and Follow Documentary First Listen to this episode: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst Support the Show Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support Connect Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Who saw something in you before you could see it yourself? Sometimes you need someone to believe in you before you can believe in yourself. Joe Amodei spent 45 years helping other people's documentaries find an audience. It took a friend to tell him he could make one. In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 283, Christian follows one story from her conversation with Joe, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which distributes her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom and sponsors the show. Joe set out to help his friend Morgan Spurlock, the director of Super Size Me, by bringing him a hockey story about the 1976 Philadelphia Flyers. Morgan told Joe to direct it himself. Joe said he wasn't a director. Morgan said he was. Morgan died before Joe shot a single frame, and Joe made Cold War in Philly anyway. Watch the full conversation: Episode 283 with Joe Amodei. Christian knows this one from the inside. When she wanted to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom, she asked her friend, producer Sandy Gordon, to take the reins. Sandy told her to do it herself and promised to stay by her side, and she did. Then, at Christmas 2018, with the film shot and her production company in trouble, Christian was ready to quit. Her son Hunter watched La La Land with her, followed her out of the room when she broke down, and kept telling her she would finish the film until she believed it. From there Christian follows the same thread through Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, a 40-year study of children on Kauai, a teenage stage role as Don Quixote's horse, Fred Shero's Flyers and the BELIEVE sign in Ted Lasso. The lesson she lands on: belief costs almost nothing to give, and it has to be given again and again. (Audio only this week: a storm knocked out power in Wheaton.) In this episode, Christian explores: Why Joe Amodei, after 45 years in distribution, couldn't see himself as a directorWhat Morgan Spurlock told him, and how that belief outlived MorganHow producer Sandy Gordon told Christian to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom herselfWhat C.S. Lewis had to do with The Lord of the RingsWhat Emmy Werner's 40-year Kauai study found about kids who thriveWhat playing Don Quixote's horse in Man of La Mancha taught a teenage ChristianWhy belief gets you to the starting line but not always to the finishThe Christmas her son Hunter believed in her when she was ready to walk awayWhy encouragement has to be repeated, not announced onceHow the 1976 Flyers beat the Soviet Red Army believing in their coach, Fred SheroTwo things to do this week: remember who believed in you, and become that person for someone else Chapters 0:00 Morgan's Three Words 2:46 Seen From the Outside 5:29 Hitting a Wall 8:31 Fred Shero's Flyers 11:04 Two Things This Week Frequently Asked Questions Why is it important to have someone believe in you? Most of us can't see our own potential clearly because we know our doubts too well. In a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive, Christian Taylor pointed to Joe Amodei, who had 45 years in film distribution but couldn't see himself as a director until his friend Morgan Spurlock told him he was one. Belief from outside fills that gap, often right when we're ready to quit. How do you keep going when you want to quit a creative project? Borrow belief until you can make your own. Christian Taylor said in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive that belief gets you to the starting line, but the middle of any hard project brings a wall. What carries people through is rarely one pep talk. It's someone who reminds them, again and again, usually right when they're about to quit, that they can finish. Can one person really change your life? Research suggests yes. Christian Taylor cited Emmy Werner's study on Documentary First in 2026: Werner followed almost 700 children on the island of Kauai for 40 years, many born into hard circumstances. What most separated the kids who thrived wasn't money or talent. It was having at least one steady adult who believed in them. One person was enough. How did Joe Amodei come to direct Cold War in Philly? Christian Taylor told the story on Documentary First in 2026. After 45 years in film distribution, Joe set out to help his friend Morgan Spurlock, the director of Super Size Me, by bringing him a hockey story. Morgan said he wanted Joe to direct it. Joe said he wasn't a director, and Morgan said yes, he was. Morgan died before Joe shot a frame. Joe made the film anyway. Listen and Follow Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4dbb34 Support the Show Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support Connect All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor Source Episode Cold War in Philly: Joe Amodei Directs His First Documentary (Ep. 283) About Joe Amodei Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment and has spent 45 years in film distribution, with releases including Super Size Me, Restrepo and Forks Over Knives. Cold War in Philly is the first film he directed. About Virgil Films and Entertainment Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com About Documentary First Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. Resources Mentioned Cold War in PhillyEpisode 283 with Joe AmodeiJoe remembers Morgan Spurlock (Ep. 234)Virgil Films and Entertainment

What happens when a film distributor with more than 40 years in the business finally makes his own documentary? Joe Amodei grew up in Philadelphia watching the Flyers with his parents, sisters and brothers. From the family living room, he watched the team he still calls his heroes beat the Soviet Red Army on January 11, 1976. After decades of releasing other people's documentaries, he decided it was finally time to make his own. Cold War in Philly tells the story of that game and of the players who are still Philadelphia heroes 50 years later. Joe calls it a love letter to them. In Episode 283, Christian Taylor welcomes Joe back, this time as a first-time director. He explains how he got access to a legendary NHL team: a cousin who works with the Flyers alumni, and a man named Brad Marsh who runs the alumni group and told the players Joe was a good guy. He got the players on camera, including Ed Van Impe and Bernie Parent, who have since died. The film took two and a half years, mostly because Joe made it while running Virgil Films, a mistake he won't repeat. He kept it under $250,000, the same ceiling he gives every documentary filmmaker. It opened in Philadelphia and sold out every screening, growing from six planned screenings to 17 in July. Then Joe tells, for the first time anywhere, why the film ends with a photo of him and Morgan Spurlock. When Joe found the project, he offered it to Spurlock to direct. Spurlock turned it down and told Joe to direct it himself, and when Joe said he wasn't a director, Spurlock said, "Yes, you are." Spurlock died not long after. The episode ends on why the work is worth it: players thanking Joe in tears, and the daughter of the Flyers' broadcaster Gene Hart hearing her father call that game for the first time in 50 years. Full disclosure: since 2022, Joe's company, Virgil Films, has distributed Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it sponsors Documentary First, including this episode. WATCH THE FILM Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV and Fandango at Home, with links on the film's site: https://coldwarinphilly.com CHAPTERS 0:00 Becoming a First-Time Director 2:42 Where the Idea Came From 5:08 How Do You Get Access? 9:33 Capturing Heroes in Time 13:04 Structuring the Documentary 21:20 The Grind of Production 28:11 Selling Out Theaters 36:06 A Promise to Morgan Spurlock 38:32 Was Distribution Hard? 41:37 What Should a Doc Budget Be? 44:48 Passion and Willpower 47:38 Is Filmmaking Worth It? FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How do you get access to famous people or organizations for a documentary? Go through the alumni association. Joe Amodei got access to the Philadelphia Flyers players through the team's alumni group, which handles former players' appearances. Nearly every major sports team has one, usually run by one or two people. Find that person and earn their trust, and they can open the door to the whole roster. Then be ready for separate contracts with the team, the owner and the league, which took Joe almost a year. How much does it cost to make a documentary? For an independent documentary, Joe Amodei's rule is not to spend more than $250,000, and he kept his own film, Cold War in Philly, under that line. Christian Taylor frames it as knowing what the film can realistically earn back before you set the budget, and understanding the market you are spending against. A built-in audience and disciplined spending give a documentary a real chance to earn its money back. What makes an independent film succeed now? A built-in audience, Christian Taylor says, and Joe Amodei agrees: "Always." Cold War in Philly had Flyers fans waiting for it, and its theatrical run sold out. But Joe adds a caveat: people asked him who would watch beyond Flyers fans, and he went ahead anyway. Many viewers have since told him they aren't even hockey fans. If your gut says go, he says, still think about it, but that doesn't mean you don't do it. What does it take to finish a documentary? Two things, according to Joe Amodei: passion and willpower. Passion for the story carries you through a process that will not be easy, and willpower keeps you going when the edit stalls and the work isn't moving as fast as you wanted. You owe it to your investors, your subjects and the people who gave up their time to sit for you. His advice is simple: you can't give up. What should you look for in a film distributor? Christian Taylor describes what makes Joe a distributor worth trusting: he answers calls and emails, pays his bills on time, sends the reports that are due, and is honest. She says that basic reliability is rarer than it should be in the business, and it's what separates a distributor you can trust from one you can't. DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS From the Virgil Films slate, Joe highlighted She Was Here, about the young actress from Poltergeist, and Broken Brothers, from Jeff Levine, a future Documentary First guest. SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT https://virgilfilms.com LISTEN AND FOLLOW Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/49a077 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst SUPPORT THE SHOW Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor ABOUT THE GUEST Joe Amodei Founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment; director of Cold War in Philly Joe Amodei has worked in film distribution for more than 40 years, starting in home video retail in Philadelphia. In 2000 he became president of USA Home Entertainment, and he went on to create Virgil Films and Entertainment, whose releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me. He won a 2020 New York Emmy for The Real Bedford Falls: It's a Wonderful Life. Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is his first film as a director; he also produced it and co-wrote it with Irv Slifkin. Virgil Films on Instagram Virgil Films on X Virgil Films on Facebook ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. THE DISTRIBUTION SERIES Episode 128, Joe's first visit, from a video store to Super Size MeEpisode 194, five film business tipsEpisode 198, Cannes part one, the film marketEpisode 199, Cannes part two, why documentaries are hard to sellEpisode 216, getting distributed part one, who can you trustEpisode 218, getting distributed part two, distribution expensesEpisode 271, budgets, genres and building your audienceRelated: the Deep Dive on this episode, Who Believed in You First?

How do you make people care about your documentary? Facts alone rarely make an audience care. The emotional core of a documentary lives somewhere else. In this episode of Documentary First, filmmaker Christian Taylor tells the story of how she found the heartbeat her film about the Battle of Carentan was missing. It was not in the archives. It was in the memories of a man who was six years old when the war came for his town. For months, Christian’s film Heroes of Carentan felt stuck in what one WWII veteran called the “data of history,” the maps, the dates, and the military maneuvers. Everything shifted when she met Yves Marchais. In June 1944, Yves was a small boy living under German occupation in Carentan, France. This year he sent Christian thirteen letters recording what he remembered, and those letters gave the historical record a soul. It comes down to a lesson every documentary filmmaker learns the hard way: audiences do not connect to issues or information, they connect to people. Anchored by a line from Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, this episode argues that the essence of history is not its record but its heartbeat. Yves calls his own account his “hummingbird’s share,” not the whole war, but the small, vivid pieces that passed before a child’s eyes. His story becomes a lesson in telling a big historical event through one small, personal one. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why facts and figures alone rarely move an audience How to find the emotional core, or heartbeat, of a documentary Why audiences connect to people, not to issues or information How to tell a big historical story through one small, personal one What Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald meant when he warned that history can lose its heartbeat Why one person’s story can carry an entire historical event What the “hummingbird’s share” is, and why small memories matter more than big ones How the Battle of Carentan looked through the eyes of a six-year-old boy How Yves Marchais and his family survived the occupation and liberation of Carentan Why the story a filmmaker starts with is often not the story worth telling What the series Band of Brothers has to do with the real Battle of Carentan How to know when your film has finally found its emotional core Chapters: 00:00 Meeting a survivor of Carentan 01:15 13 letters and Band of Brothers 02:26 Life under German occupation 04:01 D-Day and the kitchen sink 05:27 Fleeing an empty Carentan 06:59 The trench and liberation 08:45 Colonel Cole and the runner 10:57 The lesson: find your heartbeat Frequently Asked Questions: How do you find the emotional core of a documentary? Facts and chronology rarely move an audience on their own. The emotional core, what host Christian Taylor calls the heartbeat, usually lives in one person’s specific, lived experience rather than in the broad historical record. In this episode she describes finding it in the memories of Yves Marchais, a French civilian who was six during the Battle of Carentan, and building the film’s meaning around his point of view. How do you make an audience care about a documentary subject? Audiences connect to people far more than to issues or information. The most reliable way to make viewers care about a large subject, a war, a movement, a crisis, is to tell it through one specific person whose experience makes the bigger story personal. In this episode, Christian Taylor builds her film about the Battle of Carentan around a single child’s memories rather than the broad military record. What was the Battle of Carentan? The Battle of Carentan was a June 1944 fight for the town of Carentan in Normandy, France, a key objective linking the American forces landing at Utah and Omaha beaches. The 101st Airborne Division, including units later made famous by Band of Brothers, fought to take the town, which was liberated on June 12, 1944. Who is Yves Marchais? Yves Marchais is a French man who, as a six-year-old boy, lived through the German occupation and the 1944 liberation of Carentan. Decades later he recorded his childhood memories of the war in a series of letters, which became the emotional core of Christian Taylor’s documentary. He calls his account his “hummingbird’s share,” the small, true pieces of history he witnessed firsthand. What did Pfc. John Fitzgerald mean about history losing its heartbeat? Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, who served as a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, wrote that the data of history should not lose its heartbeat as it becomes information, or all that remains is the record without the essence. Christian Taylor uses that idea as the key to her film: the facts of a battle matter, but the human story is what makes people care. About the Film and the Story: Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor’s in-production documentary about the 1944 liberation of Carentan, Normandy, told through the people who lived it. Yves Marchais was six years old during the battle. His firsthand account of the occupation, the bombing, his family’s escape through a deserted town, and the moment of liberation forms the emotional center of the film. This episode is the second part of Christian’s story about finding that center. About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. Resources Mentioned: The Colonel and the Runner, by Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald (a recollection of Lt. Col. Robert G. Cole, 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division) Band of Brothers (Episode 3 follows the Battle of Carentan) The Girl Who Wore Freedom, Christian Taylor’s award-winning D-Day documentary Watch or Listen to Part 1: https://pod.fo/e/4405a5 Listen and Follow: Documentary First: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst Support the show Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support Connect: Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Can thirteen letters from an 88-year-old stranger bring a dead film back to life? For two years, Heroes of Carentan, Christian Taylor's documentary about the 101st Airborne Division and the June 1944 liberation of Carentan, sat on a shelf, half made. In this episode she tells the honest story of why a WWII documentary stalls, what it costs to keep going, and the thirteen letters from an 88-year-old man in France that finally gave the film its heartbeat back. In Episode 281 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor takes listeners inside her upcoming film for the first time. Part 1 is how Heroes of Carentan fell apart, and how it came back. Part 2 travels to Normandy, where the letters came to life. Christian walks through the three walls that stalled the film: a story that had all its pieces but none of the feeling, a modern-to-historical framing device that turned into a cage, and the reality of self-funding a documentary, including a Covid disaster loan she wished she'd never taken. Then comes the breakthrough, hidden in two years of research, and the moment she remembered Yves Marchais, who was six and a half years old when the 101st Airborne liberated his town. In this episode, you'll learn: Why a documentary can have every piece in place and still feel dead on the screenHow a timely framing device can quietly become a liability that dates a filmWhat self-funding a documentary can mean, and the loan no one talks aboutWhy the story of the Battle of Carentan was not workingHow going back to the research, not the footage, broke a two-year blockWhy pointing the camera at the people the soldiers saved changed everythingWho Yves Marchais is, and why his memories reframed the whole filmHow thirteen letters from an 88-year-old man gave the film its heartbeatWhat separates Heroes of Carentan from The Girl Who Wore FreedomWhy the cost of war, carried in one person, became the true subject CHAPTERS 0:00 A letter from Carentan 0:32 Why this episode is for you 1:19 Heroes of Carentan and The Girl Who Wore Freedom 1:50 Normandy's gratitude, and where this show began 2:46 Two years on the shelf: the three walls 2:57 Wall 1: all the pieces, none of the feeling 3:41 Wall 2: the framing that became a cage 4:34 Wall 3: self-funding, burnout, and the loan no one talks about 5:48 The breakthrough hiding in the research 6:32 Point the camera at the ones they saved 7:08 Meeting Yves Marchais 8:27 Thirteen letters from a child of war 10:25 The heartbeat, and off to Normandy Frequently Asked Questions What was the Battle of Carentan in June 1944? The Battle of Carentan was fought from June 10 to 14, 1944, days after the D-Day landings. The U.S. 101st Airborne Division fought to take the Norman town of Carentan, which linked the Utah and Omaha beachheads. After crossing an exposed causeway under fire, the Americans forced the German defenders out on June 12, then held the town against a counterattack with help from the 2nd Armored Division. Who liberated Carentan in World War II? Carentan was liberated by the U.S. 101st Airborne Division, the Screaming Eagles, in June 1944. The 501st, 502nd, and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments and the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment spearheaded the fight, with Lieutenant Colonel Robert Cole leading a famous charge along the road nicknamed Purple Heart Lane. In addition, tanks from the 2nd Armored Division helped repel the German counterattack on June 13. What is the documentary Heroes of Carentan about? Heroes of Carentan is a feature documentary by filmmaker Christian Taylor about the liberation of Carentan, France, in June 1944, told through the people who lived it. After a two-year production stall, the film was rebuilt with the help of Yves Marchais, who was a six-year-old child during the battle and later wrote thirteen letters recounting his memories. It is Taylor's second feature, following The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Why do documentary filmmakers self-fund their films? Documentary funding is famously hard, and self-funding is common because otherwise many projects would never get made. Filmmakers often cover early costs themselves to show commitment before grants or investors come in. The current climate is tougher than usual, with the closure of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and cuts to PBS shrinking traditional support, so many filmmakers now rely on personal savings, credit, and small donor communities. Who is Yves Marchais? Yves Marchais is a French civilian who was six and a half years old when the U.S. 101st Airborne Division liberated his town of Carentan in June 1944. Now 88, he wrote thirteen letters to filmmaker Christian Taylor recounting his childhood memories of the occupation, the bombing, and the American soldiers who saved his family. His testimony became the emotional center of the documentary Heroes of Carentan. About Heroes of Carentan Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor's second feature documentary, currently in production. It tells the story of the liberation of Carentan, France, in June 1944 by the 101st Airborne Division, seen through the eyes of French civilian Yves Marchais, who lived through it as a six-year-old child. About The Girl Who Wore Freedom Christian Taylor's award-winning first documentary, about the gratitude the people of Normandy still carry for the American soldiers who liberated them. This episode includes a short clip from the film featuring Valerie Cardin and Marie-Pascal Legrand. Website: https://www.thegirlwhoworefreedom.com About Documentary First Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. Resources Mentioned The Girl Who Wore Freedom: https://www.thegirlwhoworefreedom.com Listen & Follow Listen and follow Documentary First: https://pod.fo/e/4405a5 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst Support the show Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support Connect Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

What if the disappointment you didn't choose was the only door to the life you were meant to live? Three generations of one family chased professional baseball, and all three lost it to a career-ending injury. Each one found his calling in the aftermath. That pattern runs through Voices: The Danny Gans Story, filmmaker Andrew Gans's documentary about his father, the Las Vegas entertainer known as the Man of Many Voices. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor sits with what Andrew's film, and her own family's story, reveal about disappointment, the courage to tell the truth, and the doors we would never have chosen to walk through. In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 280 with Andrew Gans, Christian goes deeper into the heartbreak behind the film: a lost baseball career, a father's sudden death, a movie nearly ended by COVID, and the hard choice between protecting a hero and telling the truth. She connects it to her own son's last-minute disqualification that sent him to Normandy and seeded her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and to the warning Danny Gans's story carries for anyone living with chronic pain. The thread tying it together is simple and hard. The worst thing that happens to you is almost never what you would have chosen, and sometimes it is the only door to the life you were meant to live. But not every closed door opens onto something better. Danny built an extraordinary life after his injury, then lost the end of that life to the medication treating his chronic pain. The doorway and the warning reach us through the same act: Andrew's refusal to quit. In this episode, Christian explores: Why three generations of one family lost their baseball dreams to injury and found their calling in the aftermathHow Andrew Gans set out to honor his father and ended up telling a harder, more honest storyWhy the worst thing that happens to you can become the only door to the life you were meant to liveHow COVID and lost funding became the reason the most personal part of the film existsThe choice every documentary filmmaker faces: protect the hero or tell the truthWhy someone is more of a hero when you see that they are human and flawedHow a soldier's unfair disqualification became the foundation for The Girl Who Wore FreedomWhy not every closed door opens onto something better, and how to hold that honestlyWhat Danny Gans's life and loss reveal about chronic pain and pain medicationWhy holding your plan loosely can make a better film, and a better life Chapters: 0:00 A Warning That Might Save Your Life 1:09 Andrew Gans: Losing the Dream and a Father 2:08 Three Generations, Three Closed Doors 2:54 How COVID Setbacks Shaped the Film 3:13 Making a Documentary About Your Own Family 3:33 Telling the Truth in a Documentary About Family 4:28 My Son Hunter and the Door to Normandy 5:42 Danny Gans: An Extraordinary Life and Tragic Loss 6:21 Chronic Pain and the Danger of Pain Medication 6:40 Why Persistence Matters in Filmmaking 7:02 Letting Go of Control 7:49 When Disappointment Is a Doorway Frequently Asked Questions: What is Voices: The Danny Gans Story about? Voices: The Danny Gans Story is a documentary by Andrew Gans about his father, the Las Vegas entertainer Danny Gans, known as the Man of Many Voices. What started as a tribute became a more honest portrait, including the chronic pain Danny carried privately and the loss that ended his life. It is a son's effort to tell the whole truth about the man he admired. Who was Danny Gans? Danny Gans was a singer, comedian, and impressionist who became one of the biggest headliners in Las Vegas and was named Entertainer of the Year twelve times. Before entertainment, he was drafted by the White Sox organization, until a severed Achilles ended his baseball career and sent him toward the stage, where he became known as the Man of Many Voices. How did Danny Gans die? Danny Gans died in 2009 at age 52. His death was accidental, connected to prescription medication he was taking for chronic pain. Voices: The Danny Gans Story explores this honestly, presenting his story as both a tribute and a cautionary reminder about the risks of pain treatment for the millions of people who live with chronic pain every day. How do you make a documentary about your own family? Filmmakers documenting their own family often face a tension between honoring someone and telling the truth about them. In Voices: The Danny Gans Story, Andrew Gans chose to include painful discoveries about his father and to put himself in the film. The honest version, he found, made his father more of a hero, not less, because audiences connect with people who are human and flawed. About the Film and the People: Voices: The Danny Gans Story. Written and directed by Andrew Davies Gans, the documentary tells the story of his father, Danny Gans, the Las Vegas entertainer known as the Man of Many Voices. What began as a tribute became an honest portrait of a beloved performer, including the chronic pain he carried privately and the loss that ended his life. Danny Gans. A singer, comedian, and impressionist who became one of Las Vegas's biggest headliners, named Entertainer of the Year twelve times. Before entertainment, he was drafted by the White Sox organization, until a severed Achilles ended his baseball career. The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Christian Taylor's documentary about Normandy and the people liberated on D-Day, the film her son's unexpected assignment helped set in motion. About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. Resources Mentioned: Documentary First Episode 280 with Andrew Gans: https://pod.fo/e/433e78 Voices: The Danny Gans Story, documentary directed by Andrew Davies Gans The Girl Who Wore Freedom, documentary directed by Christian Taylor Christian Taylor on IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3041250/ Listen and Follow: Documentary First everywhere you listen: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst Support the show Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support Connect: Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor