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In this episode of the Women Outside the Garden series, Terri Petersen is joined by Kimber Young who explores the female face of God across cultures and traditions. Kimber shares her transformative encounter with the Lady Buddha (Guanyin) in Thailand, where seeing a massive female divine image made her realize that divinity can look like her. The conversation traces the story of Thecla, an early Christian disciple and companion of Paul who baptized herself without permission, and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, whose spiritual leadership was suppressed for centuries. Terri recounts the ancient legend of Lilith, Adam's first wife who refused to submit and left paradise on her own terms. Both Kimber and Terri discuss the structural barriers women face in religious institutions, drawing from Kimber's experiences growing up LDS and her ongoing journey of church hopping across denominations. Together they read and practice Lectio Divina with a poem by the late Carolyn Pearson that reflects on the yearning for a Mother God. The through-line during their conversation is self-trust: the audacity to forge your own spiritual path without waiting for permission. Listen in!

In this year celebrating the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States of America, it's important to understand the underpinning ideas in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. In today's episode, we will be looking at the fascinating "Pre-Founding" Father, Roger Williams. He accomplished many things in his life but here we look primarily at his contributions to the notion of a firm separation of church and State. To teach us about Williams, LDF host Dan Wotherspoon invited his good friend and mentor Charles Randall Paul (Randy). Randy is a social psychologist who found in Roger Williams someone who embodied firm convictions of his own religious beliefs, but who never forced them on others. He founded the community of Providence (now Rhode Island) in which persons of any faith tradition, and even atheists, were welcomed and learned to live peaceably with each other. What Williams did allow and encouraged in Providence was freedom for anyone to "contest" their beliefs with folks of different religious sensibilities, who in return were able to present fully why their tradition of beliefs were superior to others. In this way, those who differed with others learned to be, as Randy puts it, "trustworthy opponents," who recognized and honored others' ideas and commitments, rather than rivals and bad actors. Providence offered a model for others, and its ways of living with others who disagree in good faith. It came to be known as functioning as a "Lively Experiment," and it deeply influenced the thinking of James Madison and Thomas Jefferson when it came their arguments for the United States to maintain a strong separation between church and state. A core sensibility of Williams is his deep, deep belief that people should never be forced to act or believe things that went against their conscience. Interspersed in this episode are Randy's own beautiful work and thinking that argues the same thing while greatly expanding on it.  This conversation is a must listen, especially for those among us who have been despairing about what is currently happening politically in the U.S. The episode offers hope rather than despondency. Jump in!

In this wonderful episode of the "Women Outside the Garden" series, host Terri Petersen speaks with Megan Verno, a clinical mental health counselor in Utah who specializes in religious deconstruction and trauma recovery. In it, Megan shares her personal journey of growing up devoutly LDS, marrying in the temple, but also of eventually feeling suffocated by the weight of perfectionism, prescribed gender roles, and the expectation to be the perfect Mormon wife and mother — an experience she describes as being "buried."  Putting on her therapist hat, Megan explains how suffocation like this can lead to maladaptive behaviors like perfectionism, people-pleasing, resentment, OCD, and scrupulosity. Terri and she then talk about anger as it often is the first emotion to emerge when a woman finally "splits open" and breaks free of those constraints. In a terrific section, Megan outlines two contrasting parenting styles: " authoritarian" LDS parenting (which passes down certainty and truth claims) and "authoritative" parenting (which passes down values, respects autonomy, and allows children to question and think for themselves). Both she and Terri share personal stories of how controlling parenting and church systems contributed to their own children's struggles, including eating disorders driven by a need to reclaim control. As they wrap up, Megan describes the generational baggage passed down as a "bag of rocks" and notes that breaking the cycle means accepting the discomfort of disappointing others while choosing to parent and live by your own values rather than inherited certainty. The conversation closes with a hopeful metaphor: women breaking out of their small containers and growing deeper roots in the wild. Listen in! Share it with those you think of who might be struggling in these areas!

LDF host Dan Wotherspoon's father James Richard Wotherspoon died earlier this week. This encore episode is in honor of him and it consists of an interview he had with his dad in June 2021 (which was then a Father's Day episode). Jim lived a remarkable life. Born blind (as was his brother, Robert), he achieved quite a lot in his 93-plus years. He became one of the first (if not the first) blind person to earn the rank of Eagle scout. He and his brother were the first blind students to mainstream at Berkeley High School, where he excelled in his courses, as well as in music and chess. He then attended the University of California at Berkeley where he earned his master's and doctorate in history (as well as where he met his wife, Beverly, and started a family). They then all moved to Sacramento, California, where he taught history at American River College for 43 years, as well as courses at Sacramento State University. In addition to his life triumphs, he faced many setbacks as well, including a heartbreaking divorce and reactions from church leaders that led him to stay away from LDS activity for 35 years. He was fully back and involved up until his deat, and most impressive of all is his attitude and the spirit of grace and forgiveness that radiate from him. You'll be glad you listened in!

This is a special episode exploring another of Carol Lynn Pearson's many talents, her playwriting, focusing this time on her advocacy work for LGBT+ persons. This discussion features LDF host Dan Wotherspoon along with three persons involved with a new production of CLP's play, Facing East, which is being staged in Salt Lake City in October, twenty years after it first premiered. Joining Dan are director Jerry Rapier, and actors Jay Perry and Kristy Summerhays who play a grieving father (Alex) and mother (Ruth) whose gay son (Andrew) has recently suicided because of conflicts between who he is and how it clashes with his Mormon beliefs. The play takes place in the cemetery immediately following Andrew's funeral and reveals how two faithful Latter-day Saints deal in different ways with this tragic event. Alex is questioning everything about LDS teachings regarding homosexuality and how they kept him from really knowing their son. Ruth still can't face the reality that her son couldn't change who he is because God would never let church leaders be wrong about something so important, hence she double-downs on that belief even as it contradicts with the son she knew and loved so much. After they talk awhile, Andrew's partner, Marcus, arrives at the burial site to grieve, thinking everyone would have already left. Ruth does, but soon Alex and Marcus have a difficult but searching conversation and then promise to continue to talk over lunch another time. A special treat in the episode is when Jay and Kristy read two excerpts from scenes in the play. You don't want to miss that! And neither do you want to miss the many beautiful experiences they all share about Carol Lynn as well as a great deal about the journey from a much-too-long script to its triumphant 2006 run in Utah, as well as in other stagings off-Broadway and in San Francisco. It's fun to go behind the scenes! Join us!

This is a special episode exploring another of Carol Lynn Pearson's many talents, her playwriting, focusing this time on her advocacy work for LGBT+ persons. This discussion features LDF host Dan Wotherspoon along with three persons involved with a new production of CLP's play, Facing East, which is being staged in Salt Lake City in October, twenty years after it first premiered. Joining Dan are director Jerry Rapier, and actors Jay Perry and Kristy Summerhays who play a grieving father (Alex) and mother (Ruth) whose gay son (Andrew) has recently suicided because of conflicts between who he is and how it clashes with his Mormon beliefs. The play takes place in the cemetery immediately following Andrew's funeral and reveals how two faithful Latter-day Saints deal in different ways with this tragic event. Alex is questioning everything about LDS teachings regarding homosexuality and how they kept him from really knowing their son. Ruth still can't face the reality that her son couldn't change who he is because God would never let church leaders be wrong about something so important, hence she double-downs on that belief even as it contradicts with the son she knew and loved so much. After they talk awhile, Andrew's partner, Marcus, arrives at the burial site to grieve, thinking everyone would have already left. Ruth does, but soon Alex and Marcus have a difficult but searching conversation and then promise to continue to talk over lunch another time. A special treat in the episode is when Jay and Kristy read two excerpts from scenes in the play. You don't want to miss that! And neither do you want to miss the many beautiful experiences they all share about Carol Lynn as well as a great deal about the journey from a much-too-long script to its triumphant 2006 run in Utah, as well as in other stagings off-Broadway and in San Francisco. It's fun to go behind the scenes! Join us!

In this fascinating "Women Outside the Garden" episode, host Teri Petersen talks with Ashleigh Gentry, who writes the Substack, "Staying and Straying." Ashleigh's story is very interesting because she talks about something that many of us have never heard of: a form of OCD called "Retroactive Jealousy." Together, she and Terri talk about some of the purity messages/culture that dominated her LDS upbringing and how it interacted with her naturally anxious temperament.  They discuss the repercussions it had for her marriage, but also how her explorations of its origins forced her to see and reconfigure beliefs that were submerged: ones didn't know she was carrying with her into her adult years. As she did, she became more confident. She learned to be self-compassionate and trusting of her own  goodness and deep wisdom. Ashleigh then shares how some of her old beliefs have morphed into healthier (and less literal) ways of viewing the world, as well as the gospel and Jesus Christ. This is story of healing, triumph, and meeting the world with confidence. It's a must listen!

With the recent passing of Carol Lynn Pearson, we are releasing this encore episode (originally released in March 2021) of a great discussion between Carol Lynn and Kathryn Knight Sonntag about the divine feminine and the need for "Mother." The sound quality isn't great due to a couple of issues we didn't discover until after recording. It is still highly listenable! This episode celebrates Carol Lynn Pearson's recent book, Finding Mother God: Poems to Heal the World, but does so much more. Carol Lynn and Kathryn Sonntag join LDF host Dan Wotherspoon to talk about the deep ache that not only we, but also our societies and the world, have to fully reclaim the presence and energies of the Mother (Divine Feminine, Mother Creator, Nature, Wisdom, Mother in Heaven, etc.). Yet, too often, we fail to recognize this pain, as well as all the ways things are out of balance because of her having been sidelined. The podcast episode features Carol Lynn reading several of her poems, Kathryn reading an excerpt from her writings on Mother, the cycles of life and death, and the Tree of Life, as well as extended conversations about reclaiming partnership, healing, chaos and decay, and (just a bit near the end) today's political climate. Plus more! You do not want to miss this chance to listen to these powerful women about their experiences, motivations, and all the things that propel them forward in the creative work they do.

In this wonderful episode, the eighth in the LDF series, "Women Outside the Garden," host Terri Petersen interviews and converses with Kim Hamblin, the founder of "Seeds of Life" life coaching services, which specializes in Mormon faith transitions as well assisting people of all spiritual backgrounds in figuring out their faith and allowing it to lead them to where they should be. They talk extensively about Kim's spiritual journey and the kinds of work she does with folks seeking to negotiate their Mormon lives (whether they are current or former members). At some point in her own journey she noticed that the word "question" starts with "quest," a term featured in hero/heroine journeys toward wholeness found prominently in books and movies in which the protagonist endures many trials before finding what is really important to them and decide how they should show up in the world in new (or more open-hearted, enlightened) ways. Her substack is called, "Doubting My Way to Faith," which says much about how the difficult processes involved in faith transitions is very much worth it. Kim's journey is one of over-thinker learning to also trust (and more deeply) what her body is telling her. What is going on deep within all of our souls that might be keys to magnificent growth and greater peace? We think you will enjoy this delightful conversation! Tune in, and go to Latterdayfaith.org to find links to Kim's contact info, as well as her substack and coaching website.

In this episode, LDF host Dan Wotherspoon chats with William Evans, whose spiritual path is unusual for a Latter-day Saint but one that has led him to an expansive vision of life in general along with greater peace than he has ever had. Born and raised as a grandson of LDS apostle, Richard L. Evans, who is perhaps best known for his multi-decade tenure writing and voicing "Music and the Spoken Word" during the long-running Sunday morning show featuring the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. William was a faithful, very involved Latter-day Saint, serving a mission to Germany, earning a bachelor's degree at BYU, which was followed by both a master's degree and doctorate from Creighton University. During these years, he remained faithful but haunted by the LDS Church's shift from a visionary, expansive one to today's version that eschews both things. Drawn to quiet reflection (but a failure at "meditation"--can some of you relate?) and also suffering from insomnia, he eventually discovered floatation therapy (a form of sensory deprivation), and then for the past five years has also been undertaking psilocybin ("magic mushroom") journeys as a spiritual practice (and overseen by trained and loving facilitators) that have led to deep inner healing that has helped him move past much of his inner turmoil related to his upbringing and membership in a church that fails to deliver what he has long craved. These therapies, along with additional reflective tools he has honed for his own needs (and discussed in the conversation) have allowed his deep, beautiful, expansive, loving soul to come alive. You will enjoy meeting him in this episode! Note: William is also a regular attendee of Latter-day Lunches, our weekly virtual group who gathers through Zoom on Mondays from noon to 1:30 pm Mountain).

NOTE: This episode features a discussion between Jody England Hansen and LDF host Dan Wotherspoon about deep themes in Christopher Nolan's newly released film, The Odyssey. It contains a few minor spoilers, so if you haven't yet seen the film, you may not want to listen right now. If you have already seen it, you will likely be delighted to hear new perspectives that will enhance your own processing of your watching experience. Jody and Dan also bring up a few things from Homer's epic poem that were not included or explored deeply in the film. _____  One of Western literature's formative texts is Homer's epic poem, The Odyssey, which tells the story of Odysseus, the king of Ithaca, and his trials during and following his participation the Trojan War. It is often cited as a quintessential example of what Joseph Campbell has named the "Hero's Journey," in which a protagonist learns to face her or his deepest fears, including the consequences of their actions and how they have affected their families, communities, and the world. They then, with the wisdom they gained through their trials, find their way to heal and bless others. In sharing their thoughts on the film, Jody and Dan often refer to this model, noting places where the hero's journey framing is helpful to us in understanding the nature of Odysseus's trials and why they are so important for him to face. One of these elements is the nature of the gods and monsters we must face in our healing processes—gods and monsters of our own creation that can lead us to do awful, even evil, things. As we descend into the innermost parts of our souls, is it possible we can then create something new and good? The poem and film play with universal archetypes and themes that are familiar to us even as they are presented in settings that are quite foreign to our time and way of seeing the world. By telling the specifics of one person's journey, we can better see how we, too, face similar dynamics and decisions that we, in the midst of our confusing walk through this world, might to be able to see in any other way. Listen in! Tough material but spectacular payouts if we pursue the path it points towards.

This podcast episode, "Women Outside the Garden" number 7, features Terri Peterson sharing a story about a 13th century golden Buddha statue in Thailand that was covered in clay for 700 years to protect it, illustrating how people can cover their true worth with external layers. Terri explains how these protective layers, whether from well-meaning others or self-imposed doubts, can prevent people from seeing their inherent value and divinity. She discusses how breaking free from these layers requires experiencing and applying learning rather than just reading about it, comparing life to a classroom rather than a test.   Terri emphasizes the importance of trusting one's own experience and inner authority while being mindful not to act impulsively, encouraging listeners to question beliefs that don't align with their direct experience of their true souls and to recognize that flaws are temporary layers rather than permanent parts of their true selves. Listen in! It's wonderful!

This podcast episode, "Women Outside the Garden" number 7, features Terri Peterson sharing a story about a 13th century golden Buddha statue in Thailand that was covered in clay for 700 years to protect it, illustrating how people can cover their true worth with external layers. Terri explains how these protective layers, whether from well-meaning others or self-imposed doubts, can prevent people from seeing their inherent value and divinity. She discusses how breaking free from these layers requires experiencing and applying learning rather than just reading about it, comparing life to a classroom rather than a test.   Terri emphasizes the importance of trusting one's own experience and inner authority while being mindful not to act impulsively, encouraging listeners to question beliefs that don't align with their direct experience of their true souls and to recognize that flaws are temporary layers rather than permanent parts of their true selves. Listen in! It's wonderful!

In many people's minds he word "metaphysics" immediately conjures up thoughts of "woo woo" ideas and "spacy" people those who teach them under the banner of "metaphysics." And much that we find in these spaces indeed seems to be way too far out for most of us. But metaphysics has a larger and longer history, and is, indeed, a long-established branch of philosophy. It is the philosophical quest to find and understand the basic nature of existence, including the question of "why is there something rather than nothing"? It involves thinking beyond what the scientific method alone can fully describe. But throughout history, as science continues to unfold new things, metaphysicians seek to understand the implications of these finding in wider and deeper ways. In this episode, LDF host Dan Wotherspoon shares what he believes are important insights that certainly would fall within the category of "Mormon metaphysics" which are laid out in places in the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, the LDS temple ceremony, and other teachings of Joseph Smith, especially those in the King Follett Discourse. These suggest that everything that exists in uncreated and at least capable of some sort of "experience." If everything is eternal, everything has intrinsic value, and everything is interconnected with everything else. These insights provide a beautiful starting point for expanding our ethical concerns, reverence of other forms of life, and other spiritual sensibilities. Dan takes a pastoral turn with each, showing how Joseph's sensibilities about the foundational stuff of the universe are capable of changing us deeply once we learn to experience our own deep connection with what lies beneath what science can prove, but which in important ways seems to be lining up with many of its emerging discoveries. This still may sound "woo woo" to some, but hopefully it will be an episode that inspires new thinking and wider spiritual experiences. Listen in!

Most often when we talk about doing "shadow work," we usually focus on pains, wounds, and fears that we've tucked away (in our shadow). We don't see them until we do this kind of inner work but they affect our lives in harmful ways. Carl Jung opened up a new window by recognizing a "golden shadow" that also operates in the deepest, repressed part of our psyche.  A quick overview is that we have wonderful gifts that we don't put forward into the world. Sometimes our hesitation is the result of family dynamics, bad messaging, or even church-influenced taboos about staying in our place, yielding authority in our lives to leaders. Deep down we know we harbor many gifts, but we fear letting them step out of our shadow. In this episode, LDF host Dan Wotherspoon is joined by a brilliant therapist, Valerie Hamaker, and a certified life couch who has been working with clients for nine-plus years, Jana Spangler. Each of them adds much wisdom to the subject of the golden shadow, especially the dynamics of how it manifests or doesn't in our lives. We are all of us magnificent, light-filled, talented, whole beings. Why do we hesitate to own and project those parts of ourselves? Their conversation is brilliant. You must listen in!