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What does it actually take to prevent sexual harassment at work? Policies, training, reporting mechanisms and statements of zero tolerance are one thing. Creating a workplace where sexual harassment is genuinely less likely to happen is something else entirely. Episode Summary In this episode, I talk to Dr Nina Burrowes, a psychologist who has spent more than 20 years working on the psychology of sexual harm and is the author of All Reasonable Steps: How Psychology Transforms Workplace Sexual Harassment Prevention. Nina argues that organisations need to stop treating sexual harassment simply as a compliance problem and recognise it as a human one. Weexplore why conventional training can become little more than “solution theatre”; why a lack of reports doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of problems; why automatically escalating incidents to HR can have unintended consequences; and why prevention requires people to have the skills and confidence to intervene before situations escalate. The conversation also goes much wider than sexual harassment, exploring what happens when organisations try to manage messy human behaviour through neat rules and processes — and why trust, feedback, consent, judgement and psychological safety matter across organisational life. Ultimately, Nina offers a different way of thinking about healthy cultures: not places where nothing ever goes wrong, but places with the maturity and skills to respond intelligently when it does. Guest Profile - Dr Nina Burrowes Nina is a psychologist, author and founder of The Consent Collective. Her work focuses on the psychology of sexual harm and helping organisations move from compliance towards meaningful prevention. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: when organisational solutions don’t solve human problems 02:30 — Nina’s journey into the psychology of sexual harm 08:15 — All Reasonable Steps: from compliance to prevention 13:45 — Why workplaces have a role to play 17:15 — The illusion of simple solutions 21:30 — Understanding who causes harm — and why 27:00 — Moving beyond “stranger danger” 30:30 — The danger of “that doesn’t happen here” 37:00 — Creating a culture where difficult conversations can happen 42:00 — Sexual harassment as a cultural stress test 47:00 — When everything becomes an HR problem 52:00 — Why HR isn’t the culture 55:00 — AI and the future of Human Risk 56:30 — Consent as a transferable human skill 01:00:30 — Building organisations that walk the talk Resources Nina's website, including details of her book 'All Reasonable Steps'  - https://www.ninaburrowes.com/ The Consent Collective - https://www.consentcollective.com/ The Consent Collective — Workplace Sexual Harassment Prevention https://www.consentcollective.com/workplace

What can financial markets teach us about human behaviour? Why might the size of a CEO’s signature tell us something useful about the company they run? And why, even when smart investors know something is probably a bubble, might they keep investing anyway? Episode Summary My guest on this episode is Professor Alex Edmans, who returns to the show to discuss his new book, The Madness of Markets: Why Smart Investors Make Crazy Decisions and How to Exploit Them. As the title suggests, this is a book about financial markets. But our conversation is really about something much broader: human behaviour. Markets ought to be places where irrationality gets eliminated. They contain millions of participants, huge amounts of data and some of the smartest and best-paid people in the world. Yet people still overreact, follow the herd, become overconfident, refuse to admit mistakes and pay attention to things that shouldn't matter. Alex explains why that happens and what it can teach us about decision-making beyond investing.We explore why seemingly trivial information can move markets, the fine line between conviction and delusion, and why information that's hiding in plain sight can sometimes tell us more than sophisticated financial analysis. Alex share why corporate jets, unusual locations for shareholder meetings and even the size of a CEO's signature can offer clues about how a company is run. We also discuss information overload and our preference for things we can measure, why more disclosure isn't necessarily better disclosure, and how organisations can exploit the limits of human attention — including the strategic release of bad news on Friday afternoons. He also considers the impact of AI; machines can process enormous quantities of quantitative information without some of our human biases, but qualitative judgements about character, culture and trustworthiness may still require people. The future, Alex argues, isn't necessarily human or machine, but human and machine. Along the way, we explore bubbles, loss aversion, sunk costs, incentives in investment banking, financial literacy and regulation. And, ultimately, we return to a simple idea: markets behave irrationally because they're made up of human beings. Guest Biography Alex Edmans is Professor of Finance at London Business School, an author, speaker and expert on behavioural finance, responsible business and corporate governance. Before entering academia, Alex worked in investment banking at Morgan Stanley. His research has been widely published, and he has won numerous awards for teaching. His previous books include Grow the Pie and May Contain Lies, the latter of which was the subject of his previous appearance on the podcast. Links Alex Edmans' website: https://alexedmans.com/ Alex Edmans on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aedmans/ The Madness of Markets: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/821903/the-madness-of-markets-by-alex-edmans/ Alex's previous appearance on the show — Professor Alex Edmans on Misinformation: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/professor-alex-edmans-on-misinformation/ AI-Generated Timestamped Summary [00:00:00] Introduction — what financial markets can teach us about human behaviour [00:01:45] Why Alex wrote The Madness of Markets and why markets are driven by psychology as well as economics [00:03:15] Markets as a laboratory for human behaviour — if millions of investors can get things wrong, what does that tell us about small groups making decisions? [00:04:40] Three types of mistakes: overreaction, underreaction and focusing on the wrong information [00:06:20] Loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy — why admitting a previous decision was wrong is so difficult [00:07:20] Combining memorable anecdotes with large-scale evidence, from Isaac Newton to market bubbles [00:08:45] Why highly intelligent and sophisticated investors still make systematic mistakes [00:10:40] Finding signals in unexpected places — why more data isn't necessarily better data [00:12:20] What corporate jets, remote shareholder meetings, CEO photographs and signature sizes might reveal about leadership[ 00:14:00] Information hiding in plain sight and how Alex's collection of unusual academic research became a book [00:17:00] Why more corporate disclosure isn't necessarily helpful — and our preference for quantitative over qualitative information [00:19:30] Creativity, silos and finding connections that other people miss [00:21:00] Football, national mood and the stock market — demonstrating how emotion can affect prices [00:23:00] Recognising our own humanity and why stress and emotion affect even highly experienced decision-makers [00:24:00] AI and investing — what machines can do better and where human qualitative judgement still matters [00:26:30] Why market inefficiencies don't disappear even after researchers reveal them [00:28:00] Knowing there's a bubble but continuing to invest — why being right in the long term can still get you into trouble in the short term [00:30:00] Investment horizons, other people's money and why your objectives determine what counts as a sensible decision [00:31:40] Information overload — why watching markets too closely can make investors worse at investing [00:33:15] How these principles extend beyond financial markets to housing, collectibles and other major decisions [00:35:20] Mergers and acquisitions, investment bankers and the problem of misaligned incentives [00:37:00] How organisations exploit human attention — including why bad news tends to arrive on Friday afternoons [00:39:00] Could changing when and how we work help us notice information that everyone else misses? [00:41:00] How writing the book changed Alex's own investment decisions, from rebalancing tech holdings to paying attention to fees [00:43:00] Why Alex hasn't set up his own investment fund and how he applies behavioural insights to his portfolio [00:46:00] Taking the broader view — why Alex prefers researching, teaching and explaining markets to running money [00:48:00] Why The Madness of Markets was really 22 years in the making [00:50:00] Democratising investing, financial literacy and helping people understand the risks they're taking [00:53:30] Regulation, hidden costs and why making the right information salient may be more useful than simply providing more information [00:55:45] Are markets really crazy — or are they simply an unusually visible example of humans being human? [00:58:00] Why the lessons of the book ultimately go far beyond investing

What if understanding regulation could help us spot when politicians are promising the impossible? Regulation sounds simple in theory. Something poses a risk, so we create rules and a regulator to control it. In practice, things get complicated very quickly. It's something we all benefit from, but equally can experience as redtape that prevents us from doing what we think we ought to be able to. On this episode, I'm exploring the inner workings of regulation; so whether you are a regulator, a compliance officer, work in a regulated industry or just a member of the public, this'll help you understand what is and isn't possible and why regulation can often seem ineffective or overbearing. Episode summary My guests on this episode are Lyndon Nelson and Gavin Stewart, two highly experienced former financial regulators and authors of Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible. Regulators are expected to protect consumers, maintain stability, encourage competition, support innovation and increasingly promote economic growth. The problem is that those objectives don't always point in the same direction. As Lyndon and Gavin explain, making trade-offs is part of regulation; pretending those trade-offs don't exist is where things become problematic. In our conversation, we explore the tension between rules and principles, why firms don't always respond to regulation in the way regulators expect, and how enforcement involves choices about which cases not to pursue. We also look at regulatory perimeters, the hidden costs of collecting data, and why having more information doesn't necessarily lead to better regulation. We also discuss AI and crypto, behavioural science, consumer protection, international regulation, the temptation to fight the last war, and why regulators need imagination as well as analysis. Ultimately, this is a conversation about regulation as a human system — shaped by incentives, politics, judgement, uncertainty and the behaviour of both regulators and the regulated. Guest bios Lyndon Nelson spent 33 years at the Bank of England, much of it working in regulation, and ultimately became Deputy CEO of the Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA). Since leaving the Bank, he has worked with organisations including London Business School and the International Monetary Fund. Gavin Stewart began his career as a banking supervisor at the Bank of England before moving to the Financial Services Authority (FSA), where he held a variety of senior roles. He later became Chief Risk Officer at the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and subsequently worked in the private sector.Together, they are the authors of Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible, a book designed to help regulators — and those who interact with them — better understand the practical realities of regulation. Links Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible — book websiteThe Enforcement Game — try the exercise discussed in the episodeLyndon Nelson on LinkedInGavin Stewart on LinkedIn AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 Why regulation matters — and the trade-offs politicians often prefer not to acknowledge 03:00 Meet Lyndon Nelson and Gavin Stewart 05:00 Why they wrote the book — and why regulation is so badly understood 07:00 The impossible mandates politicians give regulators 10:00 Primary objectives, secondary objectives and the problem of “have regards” 14:00 Why understanding regulatory failure doesn’t mean letting regulators off the hook 18:00 Regulation as a fundamentally human and behavioural endeavour 21:00 How firms respond to, interpret and game regulation 22:00 Rules vs principles — the impossible search for certainty and flexibility 28:00 Enforcement: what happens when regulators have more cases than resources 31:00 Choosing whom to enforce against — severity, coverage and the “splash test” 34:00 Who are rules really written for — the compliant, the gamers or the criminals? 38:00 The regulatory perimeter — and why technology makes boundaries increasingly difficult 44:00 BCCI, Barings, Wirecard and FTX: the challenge of regulating across borders 48:00 Why more regulatory data doesn’t necessarily produce better regulation 59:00 The “Maginot Line” problem: regulating to prevent the last crisis rather than the next one   01:01:00 Failure of imagination, stress testing and learning to think the unthinkable   01:04:00 Accountability regimes, senior managers and regulation as an ongoing experiment 01:09:00 The industry that interprets regulation — and the strange business of regulatory “Kremlinology”   01:13:00 Who should work for regulators — career regulators, industry secondees and the value of both 01:17:00 Should regulators be better at following the standards they impose on others? 01:19:00 What “risk-based regulation” actually means — and why regulators struggle to admit they have a risk appetite   01:22:00 Why better public debate about regulation matters — and final thoughts on the book.

What if AI could help us understand people better, rather than simply replacing what humans do? Episode summary How can we use AI to become better at persuasion, communication and understanding human behaviour? My guest on this episode is Roger Dooley, author of The Persuasion Engine, a new book exploring what happens when behavioural science meets rapidly evolving technology. Roger argues that tools once available only to large organisations — from behavioural science expertise to eye-tracking — are becoming accessible to almost anyone. We explore how AI can act as a personal “nudge unit”, helping us apply ideas from behavioural science, test communications and understand how different audiences might respond.We also discuss why simply asking an AI for an answer isn't enough, how to push LLMs beyond predictable responses, and why human judgement remains essential. Roger introduces his idea of a “60-second audit” — using AI to identify how communications might be misunderstood or backfire before we send them.Along the way, we talk about Cialdini, cognitive biases, invisible calls-to-action, board papers, cultural disasters, AI collaborators, rally driving, long division and why the best analogy for AI might be a power tool rather than a replacement for human thinking. Guest bio Roger Dooley is an author, speaker and behavioural science expert who has spent years exploring a deceptively simple question: why do people do what they do? His latest book, The Persuasion Engine (Wiley, 2026), looks at what happens when behavioural science meets AI — and how tools once available only to big companies with big budgets are now becoming accessible to almost anyone.Roger is also the author of Friction, named a Top 3 Management Book by PwC’s strategy+business, and Brainfluence, which has been published in 11 languages. He brings an unusually practical perspective to the subject. Roger co-founded College Confidential  and today he combines that entrepreneurial experience with behavioural science in his writing, speaking and teaching.He is a lecturer at McCombs Business School, a Forbes contributor and host of the Brainfluence podcast — and his work focuses on helping organisations understand people better, remove unnecessary friction and communicate in ways that actually work. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — What if AI could be your behavioural scientist? 05:00 — Cialdini, behavioural science and why people don’t know why they decide 10:00 — Eye-tracking, attention and what people actually notice 15:00 — Making important information more visible 20:00 — Board reports, visual hierarchy and designing for human attention 25:00 — Better prompting and getting AI beyond obvious answers 30:00 — What happens to human expertise when AI knows the theory? 35:00 — Reactance, unintended consequences and communications that backfire 40:00 — Cultural context, reputation and Roger’s “60-second audit” 45:00 — Using AI to become better at understanding other audiences 50:00 — Roger’s lifelong interest in technology and what comes next 55:00 — Cognitive offloading, critical judgement and rally driving 57:00 — Why AI is best thought of as a power tool Links to topics discussed The Persuasion Engine — Roger’s latest book on how AI, behavioural science and neuromarketing tools are becoming accessible to organisations of all sizes.Roger's previous appearance on this podcast talking about Friction.RogerDooley.com — Roger’s website, including his books, articles, speaking and latest work.Roger on LinkedIn — where Roger regularly shares ideas on behavioural science, persuasion, AI and marketing.The Brainfluence Podcast — Roger’s podcast exploring behaviour, persuasion, neuroscience and business.Roger’s episode on The Persuasion Engine — his own introduction to the ideas behind the book, including what he calls “Neuromarketing 2.0”.Friction — Roger’s previous book, and the subject of his earlier appearance on The Human Risk Podcast.

What’s the last thing you learned simply because you wanted to know? Episode summary Why do we feel the need to justify what we learn? My guest on this episode is Annie Wagstaff, a musician and composer whose career has taken her around the world touring with Take That and into writing music for advertising. But alongside her work in music, Annie has developed another passion: learning about whatever happens to make her curious.That could be vine tomatoes, animals, colour, knots, the human body, or simply something she notices while walking through a supermarket. Annie shares what she discovers on social media, not because the knowledge necessarily has an obvious purpose, but because she finds it interesting. And that raises a fascinating question: what happens to the natural curiosity we have as children as we become adults?In our conversation, we explore creativity and constraints, sonic branding, why children pick up stones while adults tell them to put them down, the pleasure of knowing a little about a lot, short attention spans and hyperfocus, authenticity in an age of AI, and why learning something without knowing what you’re going to do with it might be exactly the point.We also talk about Take That, vine tomatoes, staring at flowers, doomscrolling, notebooks, knots and sailing — the kind of eclectic mix that an episode about curiosity really ought to contain. Guest bio Annie Wagstaff is a London-based guitarist, musician and composer.She has worked as a session musician, toured internationally with Take That, and composes music for advertising and other commercial projects. Earlier in her career, Annie also released her own music and built a large following online through her guitar playing.More recently, she has used her social channels to share the things she learns simply because they interest her — turning subjects ranging from science and animals to everyday observations into short, accessible explorations of curiosity. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Why curiosity matters 05:00 — Touring the world with Take That 10:00 — Writing music for advertising 15:00 — Sonic branding and the power of sound 17:00 — From “Guitar Girl” to curiosity creator 22:00 — Vine tomatoes and unexpected rabbit holes 25:00 — Why children are naturally curious 34:00 — Flowers, distraction and noticing the world 38:00 — Becoming a “knowledge butterfly” 45:00 — Authenticity, social media and AI 50:00 — Why does knowledge need a purpose? 55:00 — Rediscovering curiosity — from five minutes to sailing Links Annie's Website: anniewagstaff.com including her booksTikTok: @annieplaysguitar on TikTokLinkedIn: Annie Wagstaff on LinkedInInstagram: @annieplaysguitar on InstagramYouTube: Annie Plays Guitar on YouTube

What happens when someone who spends his life thinking about risk, decision-making and human behaviour is confronted with an uncertainty he simply can’t control? Episode summary My guest is Paul Craven, a behavioural scientist, former investment professional, magician and keynote speaker, and one of my favourite people to talk to. When we sat down to record this episode, I noticed that Paul’s voice sounded different. His explanation — that he had recently been diagnosed with oral cancer — took our conversation in an unexpected and deeply personal direction.We explore what his experience has taught him about uncertainty, why he deliberately chose not to Google his diagnosis, and the difference between having information and having useful information. From there, we explore luck and skill, decision and gratitude journals, relationships versus transactions, the dangers of binary thinking, and why sometimes the best thing you can do when you’re in a bad mood is go for a walk in the rain. It’s a conversation about behavioural science, but also about perspective, paying attention and what we discover about ourselves when life doesn’t go according to plan. Key themes Living with uncertainty and the psychological value of having a planWhy more information isn’t always better informationAI, search engines and our desire for certaintyNuance versus binary thinkingLuck, skill and decision journalsGratitude and paying attention to what mattersRelationships versus transactionsStorytelling, lived experience and different ways of seeing the worldChameleon Thinking and the value of changing perspectiveGuest Profile - Paul Craven Paul is a behavioural scientist, keynote speaker and former investment professional who brings together insights from psychology, behavioural science, finance and magic to explore how people really think and make decisions. Links Paul Craven — speaker profile and booking enquiriesPaul Craven’s websiteIain McGilchristMartin ShawMark VernonPaul’s previous appearances on the Human Risk Podcast Solo: Paul Craven on Magic, Money & The Mind With Gerald Ashley: Gerald Ashley & Paul Craven on Statistics, Spreadsheets & Scam Artistsand Paul Craven & Gerald Ashley on Context, Consequences & Changeability With Rory Sutherland: Rory Sutherland & Paul Craven on Alchemy & Magic and Paul Craven & Rory Sutherland on Magic & Alchemy With Rory Sutherland & Gerald Ashley at Abbey Road Timestamped summary 00:00 — Introduction 01:35 — Paul’s diagnosis and living with uncertainty Paul reveals his cancer diagnosis and reflects on why not knowing can sometimes be harder than receiving difficult news. 07:00 — Medicine, empathy and different perspectives What Paul’s experience of the NHS taught him about communication, multidisciplinary thinking and the importance of context. 10:00 — Appreciating life, stories and walking in the rain From Iain McGilchrist and Martin Shaw to Rowan Williams’ wonderfully simple advice for dealing with a bad mood. 17:10 — Reframing, Chameleon Thinking and “All shall be well” Why changing perspective can help us navigate difficult circumstances — including Paul’s own illness. 25:45 — Why Paul chose not to Google his cancer The risks of searching without context, what AI adds to the problem, and why life rarely provides simple binary answers. 31:20 — Luck, skill and keeping journals What investment management can teach us about hindsight, decision quality and the value of both decision and gratitude journals. 37:20 — Relationships, transactions and the limits of efficiency Why trust and relationships matter, and what can be lost when we optimise purely for efficiency. 43:25 — Authenticity, AI and Chesterton’s Fence The value of individuality in an AI-mediated world and why we should understand what we’re discarding before we replace it. 47:10 — Wisdom under every rock Paul brings together the themes of reframing, curiosity and learning from different perspectives. 49:10 — An update on Paul Christian shares encouraging news following Paul’s surgery and looks forward to welcoming him back to the show.

Why do we rate everything and why do we do so on a scale of one to five stars? What happens when systems designed to help us make better choices start influencing our behaviour in ways we don’t necessarily notice? Episode Summary My guest is Benji Wilson, a journalist, TV critic and author of Rate This Book. Benji’s day job involves rating other people’s work, but when his children pointed out that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him, it prompted him to investigate the ratings culture that surrounds us. In our conversation, we explore where ratings came from, why the five-star system became dominant and the psychology that makes us pay attention to the opinions of people we’ve never met. We discuss social proof and the wisdom of crowds, why we often use ratings to avoid making bad decisions rather than to identify the very best option, and what happens when reviews are fake, manipulated or simply unfair. We also explore the consequences of moving from rating products and services to rating people, including Uber drivers, hospitality workers and doctors, and why a single negative review can have significant consequences.Benji also explains how ratings might have applications in places we wouldn’t necessarily expect, including workplace appraisals and even democracy, where alternative voting systems use ratings to allow people to express more nuanced preferences. And, appropriately for someone who has written a book called Rate This Book, we discuss what it feels like when the ratings are turned back on you — including why an anonymous three-star review might actually be more useful than a perfect five-star score. Guest Profile Benji is a journalist, author and TV critic. His book, Rate This Book, explores how ratings and reviews came to dominate modern life, the psychology that makes them work and what happens when the systems designed to help us make choices begin shaping those choices themselves. Links Benji's website — more about Benji and his work.Rate This Book — How Star Ratings Took Over the World, published by New Modern Arcade.Rate This Book audiobook — read by Benji Wilson.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: why we rate everything 01:45 — Benji’s life as a TV critic and discovering that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him. 03:30 — Where ratings came from, from our instinct to rank things to the emergence of star ratings. 08:30 — The psychology of ratings: prospect theory, avoiding bad decisions and why we rely on other people’s opinions. 10:15 — Why five stars became the dominant rating system. 16:00 — Experts versus crowds, social proof and why thousands of reviews can feel so persuasive. 20:00 — Fake reviews, manipulated ratings and why critical thinking still matters. 25:00 — What happens when we move from rating products to rating people — and the real-world consequences of negative reviews. 29:30 — Reputation management, review blackmail and whether ratings platforms need greater regulation. 33:30 — Ratings and democracy: could STAR voting offer a less binary way of choosing politicians?38:30 — Workplace appraisals, reciprocal ratings and what happens when a numerical score overwhelms everything else. 43:00 — Uber and how our relationship with rating systems changes over time. 44:30 — What it feels like to have Rate This Book rated — including Benji’s mysterious three-star review. 47:30 — Why three stars may be our most natural — and least useful — rating. 52:30 — How writing the book changed Benji’s own behaviour and why trusted personal recommendations can beat aggregated reviews. 56:30 — Why companies really want our ratings and the commercial incentives behind endless requests for feedback. 01:01:00 — Amazon Vine, gamification and how rating systems can influence the people doing the rating. 01:02:30 — Where to find Benji and Rate This Book, plus the inevitable invitation to rate both the book and the podcast.

What parts of yourself have you learned to hide in order to be taken seriously? My guest on this episode is Mark Heywood, a friend of the show, returning guest and someone I've collaborated with on a number of projects. Episode Summary & Guest Profile Mark has spent more than twenty years working in crisis management and operational resilience, while simultaneously building a successful career as a bestselling novelist, screenwriter and, more recently, stand-up comedian. On the morning we recorded this conversation, Mark published an article marking his fifty-first birthday. In it, he reflected on the pressure many of us feel to present only one version of ourselves professionally, arguing that his creative and corporate lives were never really separate. As he puts it, they were 'not two jobs, but one obsession wearing two different lanyards.' That simple idea becomes the starting point for a much wider discussion about the stories we tell ourselves, and the stories organisations tell themselves. Along the way we explore: Why "stay in your lane" may say more about other people's expectations than your own potential.Why organisations often encourage people to bring their whole selves to work, while rewarding conformity.What interviews, dress codes and organisational culture reveal about human behaviour.Why stories often influence behaviour more effectively than rules, policies and frameworks.What films can teach us about operational resilience, cybersecurity and crisis management.Why the Titanic remains one of the most powerful lessons in organisational failure.How imagination is a strategic capability rather than a soft skill.Why thinking through "severe but plausible" scenarios requires organisations to become better storytellers.Links Mark's birthday article: "A Birthday Declaration from Someone Who Spent Over Twenty Years Pretending to Be Half of Himself" (LinkedIn) Mark's Behind The Spine podcast The Writing Salon Behind The Spine podcast Mark on LinkedIn Mark's previous appearances on the show talking about The Creative Industries under COVID, and Human Risk in the Creative Industries Films, Stories & People MentionedDie Hard  Apollo 13 The Martian The Odyssey (Christopher Nolan)Don't Look UpSnakes on a Plane Sharknado Noah's Ark RMS TitanicRachel Heyhoe Flint Jeremy King  AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Why do we hide parts of ourselves to be taken seriously? 03:40 – Mark explains why he stopped separating his creative and corporate identities. 08:00 – Which hobbies and outside interests are considered professionally acceptable—and why? 10:30 – Job interviews, authenticity and bringing your whole self to work. 16:00 – Jeremy King on why behaviour matters more than dress codes. 19:00 – Rachel Heyhoe Flint, the MCC and what institutional rules reveal about culture. 23:00 – Why stories influence behaviour more effectively than rules. 24:00 – The Trojan Horse and using films to teach cybersecurity and resilience. 29:00 – The Titanic as a lesson in organisational resilience rather than maritime history. 32:00 – Conduct versus outcomes: why testing matters more than compliance. 36:00 – Using stories and popular culture to make risk real. 38:00 – Noah's Ark, history and the enduring power of storytelling. 40:30 – CrowdStrike, PPE and why organisations keep repeating the same mistakes. 46:00 – Stories aren't predictions—they're a way of exploring possibility. 49:00 – A ransomware exercise and the danger of relying on fixed policies. 52:00 – Returning to the Titanic: preparing for the inquiry before the crisis. 55:00 – Thinking like an attacker and challenging assumptions about cyber risk. 58:00 – Taylor Swift, insurance and why seemingly ordinary data can become highly sensitive. 1:02:00 – The idea of "risk inflation" and why yesterday's rules aren't enough. 1:10:00 – Why memorable stories change behaviour more effectively than realistic scenarios. 1:15:00 – Reverse stress testing and imagining what could really break an organisation. 1:20:00 – RAG ratings, reporting and the danger of looking resilient instead of being resilient. 1:23:00 – Final reflections on creativity, identity and why being more than one thing is a strength.

When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them? Episode Summary Returning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents. When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry. But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges. What you'll learn In this episode In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore: Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concludedThe shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the InquiryWhy disasters rarely have a single root causeThe hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre"Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn themThe importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulationWhy complexity requires different kinds of leadershipHow AI might help organisations learn lessons in real timeWhy hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance"AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary 00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters? 02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower 05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry  06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings 10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act 12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand 13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives 17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation 20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity 24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons  27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long? 33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point 37:00 – Communities of grief and change  39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one 44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking  50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard 53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems 55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned"  59:00 – Final reflections Links Gill's website, The Grenfell Enquirer Her book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change' Gill's LinkedIn:  Her previous show appearancesGill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part OneGill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part TwoTopics discussedGrenfell Tower Inquiry – Final ReportThe Grenfell Enquirer (articles and resources)Arup's Building Safety Change FrameworkPeople and ideas mentionedDave Snowden (Cognitive Edge)Cynefin Framework overviewBackground incidents referencedPiper Alpha disaster (Encyclopaedia Britannica)Lakanal House fire (Wikipedia)Deepwater Horizon oil spill (Encyclopaedia Britannica)

What does jazz singing have to do with LinkedIn? More than you might think. This week's guest, Anna Rössler, has built a career helping senior leaders find their voice online while simultaneously developing her own as a singer-songwriter. Rather than separating her professional and creative identities, Anna has found a way to bring them together, and in doing so offers some valuable lessons about authenticity, confidence and human connection.  We explore why so much online content feels performative, how AI is changing the way we communicate, and why the best personal brands aren't really about branding at all. Along the way we discuss experimentation, creativity, stage fright, networking, and the importance of building a life around the things that genuinely energise you. Whether you're trying to communicate more effectively at work, build a presence online, or simply find more balance between your career and your passions, there's plenty to take away from this conversation. Episode Summary On this episode, we discuss: Why authenticity is more than simply 'being yourself.'How personal branding is really about building trust.Why social media should be treated as a conversation, not a broadcast.The hidden metrics that matter more than likes and impressions.How to use AI without losing your own voice.Why experimentation beats chasing algorithms.What performing music teaches us about confidence and communication.How side passions can make us better professionals.Why designing your environment is often more important than motivation.The value of creating a life that gives you energy instead of draining it.Guest Profile Anna Rössler is a marketing and LinkedIn specialist who helps organisations and senior leaders communicate more effectively through content and personal branding. Alongside her marketing career, she's an accomplished jazz and pop vocalist, songwriter and performer. Her work sits at the intersection of communication, creativity and authenticity, helping people find a voice that genuinely sounds like them—whether they're posting on LinkedIn or performing on stage. Follow Anna on LinkedIn and on her personal website.

What happens when two people who spend their careers thinking about human behaviour meet in a London pub and start complaining about conferences? Apparently, they decide to organise one. Episode Summary In this episode I'm joined by David Grosse, founder of behavioural risk advisory firm Behavor, to talk about The Unconvention, an event we're creating together that aims to rethink how conversations about risk, culture and human behaviour actually happen. But this isn't just an episode about an event. David and I explore why organisations continue to treat behavioural risk as a niche topic, despite human decision-making sitting at the heart of almost every organisational failure. We discuss why so many conferences on culture and conduct feel formulaic, why measuring culture through board packs can miss the point entirely, and why stories often reveal far more than statistics ever can. Along the way we touch on Silicon Valley Bank, Plato's Cave, behavioural science, organisational culture, productive discomfort, and why the best events might leave you with fewer certainties than when you arrived. If you're curious about The Unconvention, or simply interested in why we think there has to be a better way to have these conversations, I hope you'll enjoy listening. Links David on LinkedIn David's company Behavor The Unconvention Website and ticketing site.AI-Generated Timestamped summary 00:00 – Christian introduces the episode and explains how a conversation in a London pub led to the creation of The Unconvention. 02:20 – David shares his journey from chartered accountant and banker to behavioural risk specialist, and explains why human behaviour became the focus of his work. 05:30 – Why behavioural risk still isn't taken as seriously as other forms of risk, despite sitting behind so many organisational failures. 11:30 – Christian and David discuss what's wrong with many industry conferences, from scripted panels to sponsor-led agendas, and why they rarely change anyone's thinking. 18:00 – The conversation turns to culture, governance and why dashboards and board packs can never fully capture human behaviour. 24:30 – Stories, rather than statistics alone, often provide the richest insights into how organisations really work. 29:00 – The origins of The Unconvention and the principles behind creating an event that deliberately breaks with conference convention 35:30 – Why attendees are being invited to help shape the event, and how behavioural thinking has influenced everything from the format to the ticketing model. 42:00 – Christian and David discuss what they hope participants will take away: curiosity, productive discomfort and conversations that continue long after the event ends. 48:45 – Final details on The Unconvention, where to find David, and the unexpectedly simple story behind the name "Behavor".

Why is it so hard to stop people playing vides, music or phone calls out loud on public transport — and what does that tell us about changing human behaviour? Show Summary This episode of The Human Risk Podcast is a little different. It is a cross-cast from The Freewheeling Podcast, hosted by Thomas Ableman, in which I join Thomas to tackle a problem raised by the show's most important listener: his mum. The issue? People using phones, videos, music and speaker calls out loud on trains and buses. What begins as a seemingly small transport etiquette problem quickly becomes a much bigger conversation about social norms, antisocial behaviour, customer experience, incentives, enforcement and the limits of signage. In our discussion, we explore why simply telling people to stop may not work, how reactance can make things worse, and why transport operators need to think more creatively about behaviour change. Along the way, we consider quiet carriages, “electronic entertainment carriages”, cheap headphones, better-targeted messaging, staff intervention, social media campaigns and the wider question of whether public transport operators are responsible for the behaviour of the humans they carry. The Freewheeling Podcast The Freewheeling Podcast  is a show for transport change-makers. It explores how we can move forwards faster, bringing listeners fresh voices, new ideas and unconventional thinking. While it has a strong focus on transport and mobility, the show also ranges into entrepreneurship, politics, public policy, cities and how systems can be designed to work better for the people who use them. Links The Freewheeling Podcast - https://www.freewheeling.info/the-freewheeling-podcast Thomas on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasableman/

What if the best way to improve cybersecurity — or any other form of human risk — wasn't another policy, training course, or piece of technology, but a board game?  That's the kind of question my guest, Jill Wick, loves asking. Episode Summary  Jill is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, podcaster, and author. Her work sits at the intersection of psychology, marketing, behavioural science, and cybersecurity, and she is passionate about helping organisations understand that security is fundamentally a human challenge, not simply a technical one.  Drawing on her experience in fraud prevention and her academic background in business psychology, Jill explains why traditional approaches to awareness often fail, why experimentation matters, and how a simple Snakes and Ladders-inspired game can create meaningful conversations about risk and decision-making. The discussion ranges far beyond cybersecurity. We explore creativity, curiosity, communication, organisational culture, social media, learning, and the challenge of measuring success when the outcome you're seeking is something that doesn't happen. Key Topics In this episode, we discuss: Why cybersecurity is ultimately a human problem rather than a technology problemThe psychology behind phishing, scams, and social engineeringWhy more policies and more training often fail to change behaviourHow unclear policies can create confusion instead of complianceThe role of curiosity, creativity, and experimentation in risk managementHow games can create psychologically safe environments for learningThe importance of conversation and peer learning in awareness programmesWhat compliance, safety, conduct, and operational risk professionals can learn from cybersecurity awarenessWhy awareness professionals should think more like marketersThe value of experimentation, iteration, and A/B testingHow social media can help build communities around important ideasWhy measuring engagement may be just as important as measuring failuresGuest Biography Jill Wick is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, author, and podcast host who specialises in the human side of cybersecurity. Drawing on a background in fraud prevention and behavioural science, she helps organisations build stronger security cultures through creative, engaging approaches that go beyond traditional training and compliance. Known for her innovative use of games, psychology, and marketing techniques, Jill is a passionate advocate for making cybersecurity awareness more human, effective, and enjoyable Links Jill's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-wick/ Jill's website - https://www.jillwick.com/ Cyber & Psych, Jill's podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/5uteiqHvCTGCVtCsKCzGJ6?si=322ef51fd6a3423c&nd=1&dlsi=c6d8309550784df9 Security-Awareness-Tools, Jill's book - https://www.isbn.de/buch/9783658511111/security-awareness-tools AI-Generated Timestamped Outline 00:00 – Introduction02:15 – Jill's background: From fraud prevention and business psychology to cybersecurity awareness.05:30 – Understanding why people fall for scams, phishing attacks, and social engineering.06:00 – Why cybersecurity is fundamentally a human problem, not just a technical one.08:00 – The limitations of rules, policies, and traditional awareness training.12:00 – The origin of Jill's cybersecurity board game and why simplicity matters.14:00 – How games create psychologically safe conversations and improve learning.19:30 – The game as a conversation tool: building culture, peer learning, and engagement.22:00 – Creativity, curiosity, and the courage to experiment with new approaches.26:00 – What cybersecurity awareness can learn from marketing, advertising, and A/B testing.35:30 – Why awareness and technology must work together rather than compete.41:30 – New projects: workshops, events, games, and Jill's forthcoming book Security Awareness Tools.44:00 – Lessons for compliance and risk professionals: attention is a limited resource.51:00 – Measuring success: engagement, participation, reporting, and positive signals.

What can businesses learn from cults? It might sound like an uncomfortable comparison: one involves strategy meetings, values statements and quarterly targets; the other manipulation, charismatic leaders and extreme behaviour. But perhaps the distinction isn't as clear as we'd like to think. Both create identities and shared beliefs. Both shape how people think and behave. And both can evolve gradually in ways that are hard to recognise from the inside. Unhealthy cultures rarely appear overnight. Small compromises become normal, difficult questions become harder to ask, and behaviours that once felt uncomfortable slowly become accepted. Episode Overview On this episode, I'm joined by Tobias Sturesson, culture advisor and author of You Can Culture, whose understanding of organisational culture comes not from business school, but from a deeply personal experience growing up inside a religious community that gradually evolved into a cult. Drawing on his own story — and his work helping organisations create healthier cultures — Tobias explains why good people can become part of unhealthy systems, why speaking up is often far harder than leaders realise, and why culture is shaped far less by mission statements than by the everyday behaviours people learn to accept. We also explore: How communities and organisations can slowly drift into unhealthy patternsWhy leaving damaging environments is often much harder than outsiders imagineThe role of sunk costs, identity and belonging in keeping people trappedWhy organisations often mistake symptoms for root causesThe difference between “tone from the top” and “example from the top”Why humility may be one of the most underrated leadership traitsThe dangers of leaders creating the appearance of listening without genuinely hearing peopleWhy culture initiatives often fail to create lasting behavioural changeHow everyday leadership habits shape organisational cultureWhy discomfort is often necessary for growthGuest Profile - Tobias Sturesson Tobias is a culture advisor, speaker and author focused on helping organisations build healthier cultures and develop more responsible leadership practices. His work combines personal experience with research and practical interventions designed to help organisations identify and address the root causes that undermine cultural health. He is the author of You Can Culture: Transformative Leadership Habits for a Thriving Workplace, Positive Impact and Lasting Success. Links Tobias on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiassturesson/ Heart Management - https://www.heartmanagement.org/ Tobias' Book: You Can Culture – https://youcanculture.com/ AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: What can cults teach us about culture? 03:00 — Tobias's story of growing up inside a community that became a cult 08:30 — How unhealthy environments evolve gradually 11:00 — Why leaving can be harder than joining 13:00 — The importance of people who help without judging 16:00 — Turning personal experience into professional purpose 19:00 — Why organisations often misunderstand their own problems 23:00 — Humility as a leadership strength 26:00 — The tension between expertise and curiosity 29:00 — Why business systems often reward the wrong behaviours 33:00 — The importance of listening and asking better questions 38:00 — Why reflection matters in fast-moving environments 42:00 — Culture as everyday conversations and habits 45:00 — Leadership signals and behavioural norms 49:00 — Building healthier cultures through leadership habits 53:00 — Why changing culture is difficult but necessary 56:00 — Creating a movement for healthier leadership

What makes great service? It’s one of those things we instantly recognise when we experience it, but struggle to define. And while organisations spend huge amounts of time trying to design seamless customer experiences, the reality is that service doesn’t happen in strategy documents or training manuals. It happens in real time, between real people, in messy and unpredictable situations where eventually the playbook runs out. Episode Overview In this episode, Christian is joined by Will Tarrant, CEO of Freeman Group, who focus on helping organisations close the gap between what they promise customers and what actually gets delivered in reality. Drawing on decades of experience across hospitality, aviation, healthcare and destinations, Will explains why compliance-based training can sometimes increase hidden risk, why empowerment without judgment can quickly become chaos, and why the real differentiator in service is rarely the process itself — it’s the human response when something unexpected happens. Along the way, the conversation explores: Why “making people feel a certain way” is the real job in hospitalityThe hidden risks created by over-reliance on scripts and SOPsWhy organisations often confuse solving problems with compensating customersThe psychology of customer perception and expectationHow hotels, airports and even destinations manage emotional experiencesWhy breakfast might be the best indicator of a hotel’s qualityThe tension between automation and human interactionWhy good service recovery is about judgment, not generosityAs Will puts it: “Compliance-based training reduces visible risk, but it increases hidden risk.” Although framed around hospitality and customer service, this episode is really about something much broader: how humans make decisions when the script no longer applies. Guest Profile - Will Tarrant Will Tarrant is the CEO of Freeman Group, a consultancy that helps organisations design and deliver service cultures that align operational reality with brand promise. The company works globally across hospitality, aviation, healthcare, retail and tourism destinations. LinksWill on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/willtarrant/ Freeman Group website - https://freemangroupsolutions.com/ AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: Why service failures create risk02:30 — Closing the gap between promise and reality07:00 — Hospitality is about making people feel something11:30 — The hidden risk of compliance-based training13:00 — What happens when the playbook runs out15:00 — Scripts, authenticity and service style16:00 — Measuring service quality19:00 — Perception is reality20:00 — Why empowerment needs structure22:00 — Seeing service everywhere24:00 — The timeless mechanics of good service26:00 — Automation versus human interaction29:00 — “The customer is always your customer”30:00 — Solving problems versus compensating customers33:00 — Inheriting other people’s problems36:00 — Hiring for judgment, not just experience39:00 — The changing status of hospitality careers43:00 — Humans as the source of unpredictability47:00 — Why hotel breakfast matters50:00 — Choice overload and decision fatigue53:00 — Applying service thinking beyond hospitality55:00 — The gap between marketing and operational reality