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What if the problem in some churches isn’t a lack of gifted leaders, but our failure to recognize them?  In this episode of The Disrupters, psychologist, author, and retired professor Susan Harris Howell joins Caleb Campbell for a conversation about power, gender, and the assumptions that quietly shape life in the Church. Drawing from her book Buried Talents, Susan explores how culture influences the ways we think about leadership, calling, authority, and whose voices are heard. Together, they examine why Jesus consistently made space for women's participation, and how churches can unknowingly reinforce the patterns of the world by burying God-given gifts beneath assumptions about gender. Susan argues that gifts and callings don't come in "pink and blue," explores the link between power and abuse, and challenges listeners to consider what the Church loses when some voices are consistently overlooked. At the same time, she offers a hopeful vision of churches where women and men are empowered to steward all that God has entrusted to them. If you've ever wondered how culture shapes the church, wrestled with questions of leadership and belonging, or longed to see healthier uses of power in Christian community, this conversation will challenge you to notice what you've stopped seeing and imagine what the Church might become. Ready to disrupt for the good of the Church? Tune in now. This episode highlights the following themes: Why abuse thrives when power is hoarded by a fewHow churches unintentionally copy harmful cultural patternsThe difference between wanting power over others and claiming agency for oneselfPractical advice for people who feel silenced in their own congregationsLinks from the episode: Learn more about Susan Harris HowellRead Susan Harris Howell’s book, Buried TalentsCheck out Susan Harris Howell’s SubstackJoin Christians for Biblical Equality (CBE)Learn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅ Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅ Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅ Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅ Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

American exceptionalism isn’t a patriotic value; it’s a theological problem. In this episode of The Disrupters, Jonathan Walton, executive director of the Center for Beauty and Resistance, joins Caleb Campbell for a challenging conversation about stewarding power, nationalism, and the idols hiding in plain sight. Together, they explore why American exceptionalism remains so compelling, how the American Dream can become a counterfeit version of “life to the full,” and why Christians are often tempted to pursue power through dominance, control, and self-preservation rather than sacrificial love. Drawing from Scripture, history, and years of walking alongside people learning to steward the power God has entrusted to them, Walton argues that the way of Jesus stands in stark contrast to the logic of empire. He invites listeners to reexamine assumptions about nation, identity, success, and faithfulness, asking what happens when allegiance to God's kingdom comes into conflict with the stories our culture tells us about greatness. The American Dream offers a counterfeit kingdom. Jesus offers the real thing. The difference changes everything about how we understand power. This episode highlights the following themes: The power, privilege, and stewardship of a Christian lifeThe dangers and illusions of American exceptionalismJesus’s disruptive approach to power and empireHow confession, humility, and justice reshape the way we use powerLinks from the episode: Learn more about Jonathan WaltonSupport the work of A Rocha USA and the Center for Beauty and Resistance hereCheck out Jonathan Walton’s SubstackRead Beauty and Resistance and Twelve Lies That Hold America Captive by Jonathan WaltonGet more information on the NYU Faith, Innovation and Social Impact Course. Applications are due on November 15. NYU, the Christian Community Development Association, Innofaith and the Center for Beauty and Resistance are collaborating for this unique opportunity!Read The Very Good Gospel by Lisa Sharon HarperLearn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅ Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅ Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅ Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅ Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

When American Christians pray for revival, is our narrow imagination blinding us to how God is answering those prayers? In this episode of The Disrupters, Caleb Campbell sits down with Rev. Dr. Gabriel Salguero, pastor, author, and president of the National Latino Evangelical Coalition, to disrupt how we define revival, church health, and spiritual renewal. Drawing from a variety of passages across the Old and New Testaments, as well as evidence from the global church, Gabriel argues that revival is about more than attendance, influence, or numerical growth. True spiritual awakening is holistic: it welcomes the stranger, uplifts the vulnerable, strengthens communities, and reflects the multicultural kingdom of God. From Pentecost and immigration to church growth and community flourishing, Gabriel paints a bigger, more complete vision of revival than many American Christians have been taught to expect. If we measure revival only by what happens inside our churches, we may miss what God is doing all around us. Tune in now to discover why the poor, the widow, the orphan, and the stranger are the most important witnesses to whether revival is truly taking place. This episode highlights the following themes: Revival as a holistic, community-centered movementThe dangers of the cult of personality and American celebrity church cultureHow biblical revival always includes the poor, the widow, the orphan, and the strangerImmigration, ethnicity, and the Spirit’s radically inclusive workLinks from the episode: Learn more about Gabriel SalgueroLearn more about the National Latino Evangelical CoalitionLearn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅ Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅ Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅ Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅ Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Sensitivity Warning: This episode includes discussion of war, violence, genocide, and human suffering. Some of these topics are explored in personal and vivid detail and may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. As we mark three years since October 7, 2023, it is more important than ever for Christians to remember that following Jesus means mourning with those who mourn and paying the high price for peace. In this episode of The Disrupters, Caleb Campbell sits down with the executive director of Churches for Middle East Peace, Rev. Dr. Mae Elise Cannon, to grapple with Christian complicity in global violence, the privilege of looking away, and the high cost of following the Prince of Peace. Together, Caleb and Mae challenge the binary thinking that reduces complex conflicts to heroes and villains, which dehumanizes people made in the image of God. Mae shares heart-wrenching stories about the daily reality of families living in fear of the next missile strike. She challenges listeners to consider how their money, politics, and silence contribute to cycles of destruction, and what a gospel of good news actually looks like for those in the rubble. Mae offers practical guidance in this episode: how to faithfully witness suffering, how to pray through feeling overwhelmed, how to engage with peacemaking long-term, and how to radically love your enemies.  Join Mae, Caleb, and The Disrupters in refusing to look away from suffering. This episode highlights the following themes: American complicity and Christian responsibility in global injusticeThe privilege of looking away and the biblical mandate not toThe intersection of power, justice, fear, and the way of JesusStories of courage, peacemaking, and paying the high cost for peaceLinks from the episode: Learn more about Mae Elise CannonRead Mae Cannon’s book, Beyond Hashtag ActivismLearn more about Churches for Middle East PeaceCheck out Mae Elise Cannon’s Substack for her latest writingsLearn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

When faced with the injustice caused by sin and the powers of the world, the Church must respond with unity, compassion, and focused, righteous anger.  In this episode of The Disrupters, Caleb Campbell sits down with pastor, organizer, and activist Rev. Dr. Alexia Salvatierra to explore how Christians can humbly, lovingly, and fearlessly promote justice for the vulnerable within the political systems of the world. Alexia shows how the world’s obsession with “power over” keeps us trapped in cycles of domination and fear, while the way of Jesus offers an alternative “power with” that elevates the vulnerable for the good of all people. Drawing on decades of experience organizing for immigrants and the economically disadvantaged, Alexia shares practical wisdom for anyone longing to put prophetic anger to use—not as impotent rage, but as fuel for change. They reflect on the dangers of individualism, the collective call to steward democracy, and why “loving our neighbors” means standing with the widow, the orphan, the immigrant, and the poor. Alexia offers stories, practical tips for advocacy, and a hopeful reminder that governments come and go, but the Church endures as a sign of God’s reconciling love on Earth. If you want to learn how to support change for good in your own community, this episode is for you. This episode highlights the following themes: The difference between power over and power withHow faith changes our understanding and stewardship of powerHow individual Christians can practice faith-rooted organizingWalking in hope and humility amid division, rage, and systemic injusticeLinks from the episode: Learn more about Alexia SalvatierraRead Alexia’s book, Faith Rooted OrganizingLearn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead The Very Good Gospel by Lisa Sharon HarperRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

The Church’s power lies in loving broken people unconditionally, not in breaking people with conditional love. In this episode of The Disrupters, Caleb Campbell welcomes writer, advocate, and co-founder of Deconstruction Doulas, Margaret Bronson, for a conversation about power, spiritual authority, and abuse in church spaces. Margaret shares about her journey out of a highly controlling religious environment, through the systems and structures of the modern American church, and now to her work as a “doula” for people navigating religious trauma. Together, they explore the deep wounds caused by unhealthy theology and conditional belonging, and what it takes to love the spiritually wounded. Referencing Martin Luther, George Washington in Hamilton, and Babe the Pig, Margaret exposes how systems of coercion and tough love have replaced the vulnerable way of Jesus, and challenges the Church’s assumptions about where saving power resides. She invites us to rethink grace, to trust the Holy Spirit with those we love, and to practice radical hospitality for those carrying pain and fear. This episode offers hope to survivors of spiritual abuse who are rebuilding their faith and gives Christians practical steps for fostering true belonging and safety in every part of church life.  Tune in and discover how churches can become green pastures where everyone, especially the wounded and the downtrodden, can find rest, security, and peace. This episode highlights the following themes: The difference between oppressive and healing power in the churchCreating church spaces of safety, vulnerability, and genuine welcomeThe harm of conditional belonging and coercive “tough love” leadershipLinks from the episode: Learn more about Margaret Bronson and Deconstruction DoulasLearn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

How did the church become more interested in holding power than sharing the Good News?  Welcome to the seventh season of The Disrupters! In this first episode, host Caleb Campbell sits down with Rev. Dr. Soong-Chan Rah, Robert Boyd Munger Professor of Evangelism and Church Renewal at Fuller Theological Seminary, award-winning author, and renowned voice on faith and justice. Together, they explore how American Evangelicalism has been shaped not by a truth-pursued mindset, but by a truth-possessed one that values control and exclusion over humble evangelism. Soong-Chan challenges us to rethink how we evangelize, moving beyond intellectual arguments and needless boundary-drawing toward a vision of embodied gospel presence. He reflects on the dangers of exceptionalism, the deep roots of power and narrative in American church life, and the need for prophetic lament as a corrective spiritual practice. This conversation sets off an entire season that will unsettle your perspective of power and invite you to examine the stories and habits shaping your own faith. Whether you’re seeking a church that lives what it preaches, or you’re wrestling with the ways Christianity has missed the mark, this episode calls us back to the kind of power Jesus modeled, one that serves, invites, and chases after truth. Listen now and rediscover what it means to follow Jesus and share the Gospel with true power. This episode highlights the following themes: The problem with “truth-possessed” evangelismIncarnational apologetics vs. winning argumentsProphetic lament as spiritual resistanceThe weaknesses of revival-based evangelismLinks from the episode: Discover more about Dr. Soong-Chan Rah and his booksLearn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 for 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece, Helen Lee, and Travis Albritton ✅Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

What should Christians do with power, and what if we’ve misunderstood it all along? Welcome to season 7 of The Disrupters from InterVarsity Press, hosted by Caleb Campbell. Every episode promises honest conversations that push the church to rethink the ways it chases influence, security, justice, and above all—power. Joining Caleb Campbell this season are leading voices like Soong-Chan Rah, Mae Elise Cannon, Alexia Salvatierra, Jonathan Walton, Amy Williams, Malcolm Foley, Margaret Bronson, and others. Together, they pull the curtain back on the ways power shapes our views of politics, race, gender, healing, nationalism, wealth, peacemaking, and justice. At the center of this season is the radical person of Jesus. He rejected domination. He chose the cross, not the sword. His kingdom values humility, service, generosity, and love. In a world chasing power, what would it look like for Christians to surrender it? If you’re searching for conversations that challenge the status quo and help you develop a more faithful perspective of power, this season is for you. Season 7 of The Disrupters launches next week, September 16. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or watch on the IVP YouTube channel. Links from the episode: Learn more about The DisruptersLearn more about Caleb CampbellRead Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming LeviathanRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅ Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPDISRUPT40 to get 40% off and free US shipping on any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅ Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅ Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅ Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅ Social Media Manager: Makayla Payne ✅ Assistant Producer: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅ Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅ Theme Song: "Sneakerhead" by Ghost Beatz Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

You need to slow down. So many leaders are driven by the fear of falling behind, convinced that impact requires urgency. And in the frantic pace of the modern world, we forget that God never told us to sprint ahead; he invited us to walk alongside him. In the final episode of Season 6 of The Disrupters podcast, host Nicole Martin sits down with author, speaker, filmmaker, and VeggieTales creator Phil Vischer. In their conversation, Phil shares about the rapid rise and rapid fall of Big Idea Productions. He opens up about how speed became his idol and how slowing down has allowed God to redeem his failures. Now, as co-host of The Holy Post podcast and a storyteller for the next generation, Phil reflects on what it means to follow Jesus without being consumed by a relentless need to hurry. Throughout their conversation, Phil warns listeners about the pressures of staying ahead and the toxic pace of modern ministry. From identity to insecurity, performance to obedience, this episode is a powerful reminder that you don’t need to impress God. You just need to patiently walk with him. When we crucify speed, we find the joy, peace, and purpose only God’s pace can provide. Tune in now to learn how slowing down might be the most faithful thing you can do as a leader. This episode highlights the following themes: Crucifying speed in a culture addicted to hurryRedefining our failure and success through God’s eyesObedience always outweighs outcomesLinks from the episode: Discover more about Phil VischerLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin's book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Leaders are expected to meet increasingly high standards, but many are silently suffering under the pressure of constantly needing to perform. But God never called us to perform—He called us to be relational people. In this episode of The Disrupters, host Nicole Martin is joined by Sheila Wise Rowe and Dr. Nicholas Rowe, co-authors of Healing Leadership Trauma, spiritual formation mentors, and longtime leaders in ministry and education. Sheila Wise Rowe is an award-winning author and counselor who has spent over 30 years walking alongside abuse and trauma survivors. Dr. Nicholas Rowe is the Hansen Associate Professor of Leadership at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, with decades of experience in leadership, reconciliation, and formation. Together, they offer not only practical wisdom but a deep well of spiritual insight. Through honest reflection, they unpack how unhealed trauma fuels performance-based leadership and how many Christian leaders carry the past, present, and future like a crushing weight. They discuss how early wounds, fear of failure, and pressure to succeed can disconnect leaders from their core identity in Jesus. But when you crucify performance, what rises is something far more powerful: character rooted in truth, leadership grounded in rest, and a witness that’s not built on performance, but presence. Tune in now to discover how surrendering performance can allow you to lead as a “human being,” not a “human doing.” This episode highlights the following themes: Crucifying performance and recovering authenticityHealing leadership trauma across past, present, and futureLeading others by being rooted in your identity in ChristLinks from the episode: Learn more about Sheila Wise Rowe and Dr. Nicholas RoweCheck out their book: Healing Leadership TraumaLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin's book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In a culture that promises life will go "up and to the right," we're conditioned to believe that success follows a predictable trajectory of increasing achievement and personal fulfillment. But for Christians who desire to lead more faithfully, our expectations for life and leadership must come from what God says about us, about our calling, and about his kingdom. In this episode of The Disrupters podcast, host Nicole Martin talks with Joanna Meyer, Director of Public Engagement at the Denver Institute for Faith and Work and author of the award-winning book Women, Work and Calling. As a leader in the national Women, Work and Calling initiative, Joanna brings deep insight into how Gospel-formed expectations become the foundation for authentic calling and faithful leadership. Nicole and Joanna explore what it means to crucify our expectations and lead from a place of flexible surrender rather than rigid entitlement. They share about their experiences as women who lead and serve in the Church, and how they’ve needed to navigate and sometimes reject the expectations that have been placed upon them in the process. Joanna shares her journey through unmet expectations, revealing how beauty and brokenness have worked together to shape her calling and deepen her relationship with Jesus. Throughout their conversation, they emphasize the difference between being faithful and being fruitful, challenging listeners to align their hopes with what God promises will be rather than their own expectation of what should be. Tune in now to discover how to develop faithful expectations, navigate disappointment, and remain anchored in the Gospel when life doesn't go according to plan. This episode highlights the following themes: The difference between being faithful and being fruitful in leadershipHow broken expectations can deepen intimacy with ChristMoving forward in faithfulness when life doesn't meet expectationsLinks from the episode: Learn more about Joanna MeyerCheck out Joanna's book: Women, Work and CallingLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin's book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In a culture obsessed with numerical growth and expansion, Christian leaders often measure success by the size of their congregation, budget, or influence. But for believers who desire to lead with integrity and purpose, we must reframe our leadership goals with a different question in mind: "What are we measuring, and why?" In this episode of The Disrupters podcast, host Nicole Martin welcomes Bishop Geoffrey Dudley, pastor of New Life in Christ Church and CEO of Ilead Enterprises. As a retired Air Force chaplain with over 20 years of service and the author of Leading Through the Storms, Bishop Dudley brings practical leadership wisdom and spiritual insight to navigating ministry growth and decline. Together, Nicole and Bishop Dudley explore what it means to "crucify scale" and lead through the inevitable storms of ministry. Throughout their conversation, they emphasize that true success isn't measured merely by numbers but by the depth of maturity, spiritual growth, and kingdom impact. Bishop Dudley shares his journey from preaching at age thirteen, Air Force chaplaincy, and later to pastoring a thriving church, revealing how storms and challenges crystallized his calling and transformed his approach to leadership. Together, they invite us to practice honest self-reflection and align our understanding of scale with God’s vision. If you've ever felt dissonance between your vision for growth and your current reality, this conversation is for you. Tune in now to discover how to measure what truly matters and lead faithfully through both seasons of expansion and turbulence. This episode highlights the following themes: Finding meaning beyond numerical metrics in ministryPreparing for inevitable leadership stormsDeveloping multi-generational leadership for long-term impactDifferentiating between growing a church and growing disciplesLinks from the episode: Learn more about Bishop Geoffrey DudleyCheck out Bishop Dudley's book: Leading Through the StormsLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin's book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In a culture that celebrates the pursuit of “more,” we’re taught that success is measured by the accumulation of wealth. But for Christians who desire to lead their families, churches, or organizations well, we must commit to a different teaching: “You cannot serve both God and money.” In this episode of The Disrupters podcast, host Nicole Martin welcomes Bob Doll, CEO and Chief Investment Officer at Crossmark Global Investments, a long-time financial strategist and faithful servant leader. With over 40 years in the financial industry and regular appearances as a finance correspondent on CNBC and Bloomberg, Bob brings both economic insight and a gospel-centered mindset to wealth management. Together, Nicole and Bob talk about what it looks like to follow Jesus in a consumption society. Throughout their conversation, they emphasize that God doesn’t want our money—he wants us—challenging us to reassess how we define our own value. Bob offers practical wisdom on confronting the love of money, decluttering our lives, and living with an eternal perspective. He shares how he balances wealth with generosity while keeping the Kingdom of God front and center.  If you’ve ever struggled to serve God with your finances or felt trapped in the iron grip of material wealth, this conversation is for you. Tune in now to discover how to live generously, steward well, and invest in eternal riches. This episode highlights the following themes: The differences between temporary and eternal wealthLiving in freedom from the fear of scarcityHow to faithfully save, invest, and use our moneyLinks from the episode: Learn more about Bob DollCheck out Crossmark Global InvestmentsLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin’s book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

To whom have you given your loyalty? Who is loyal to you? A hallmark of modern leadership is the demand for unquestioning loyalty—loyalty to the boss, loyalty to the organization, loyalty to the vision.  But when loyalty is demanded instead of inspired, it can quietly become a weapon of control that quashes dissent, silences the vulnerable, and enables abuse.  And misplaced loyalties can create harmful power imbalances in even the most equitable organizations. In this episode of The Disrupters podcast, host Nicole Martin sits down with Dr. Natasha Sistrunk Robinson—writer, international speaker, leadership consultant, mentoring coach, and founder of Leadership LINKS, Inc. Natasha is a former Marine Corps officer, graduate of the US Naval Academy, and author of many books, including A Sojourner’s Truth. With over two decades of leadership experience across the military, government, church, and nonprofit spaces, she brings clarity and conviction to what it means to lead with integrity and inspire loyalty to God. Natasha offers stories from her time in the military and the church, exposing how misplaced loyalty can cover abuse, silence victims, and keep leaders trapped in cycles of control. From church politics to mentoring dynamics, she names the hard truths: spiritual leaders are not immune to abusing people’s loyalty, and even Christians can be tempted to place their loyalty with people rather than with God. But she also shows a better way—how consistent meditation on God’s Word and practicing sacrificial leadership can inspire loyalty to God and his mission rather than to us and our own.  Jesus never demanded loyalty, he invited people to follow. And healthy leaders should do the same. Tune in now. This episode highlights the following themes: Practicing intentional, considerate, sacrificial leadershipPower dynamics, boundaries, and abuse of loyaltyHow to lead to inspire loyalty to Jesus and his missionLinks from the episode: Learn more about Natasha Sistrunk RobinsonRead Natasha Sistrunk Robinson’s book: A Sojourner’s TruthExplore Leadership LINKSLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin’s book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

What if your desire to “get it right” is the very thing preventing you from doing what God wants to do through you? We often cling to perfection because we fear loss. However, transformation and leading through change always demand it. In this episode of The Disrupters podcast, host Nicole Martin welcomes Tod Bolsinger, leadership expert, professor, and author of the new Practicing Change Series, as well as Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered Resilience. Tod is the founder of AE Sloan Leadership and serves as executive director of the DePree Center Church Leadership Institute. With decades of pastoral and consulting experience, he brings powerful wisdom on navigating real transformation in leadership, especially when the path forward is unclear, uncomfortable, and costly. In this engaging conversation, Tod challenges the myth of lossless leadership and invites us into the real work of adaptive change. He confronts the idol of perfectionism in leadership, showing how anxiety, ego, and the pressure to always know what to do frequently get in the way of real growth. He challenges Christians to stop expecting that following Jesus will be a comfortable, lossless process. Tod also shares how spiritual resilience is formed, not found, and how keeping a Jesus-centered view of organizational leadership requires pursuing the mission, never the brand.  When we stop trying to control the outcome and instead join hands with others, we begin to move forward one faithful, imperfect step at a time. Because the goal isn’t about looking like you’ve got it all together. It’s about trusting God enough to lose what’s safe, so something eternal can rise in its place. Tune in now to discover what you need to lay down to lead with courage, clarity, and Christ at the center of everything. This episode highlights the following themes: Crucifying perfection and embracing transformationLeading through loss and adaptive changeHolding mission and identity above brand and imageLinks from the episode: Learn more about Tod BolsingerRead Tod Bolsinger’s new series: Practicing ChangeRead Tod Bolsinger’s books: Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered ResilienceLearn more about Nicole MartinRead Nicole Martin’s book: Nailing ItRead the transcript hereCredits: ✅Special offer: Visit ivpress.com and use the code IVPOD25 for 25% off any IVP resource mentioned in this episode. ✅Producers: Jack Reece and Travis Albritton ✅Executive Producer: Helen Lee ✅Sound Engineering: Honest Podcasts ✅Social Media Manager: Allie Noble ✅Production Assistant: Christine Pelliccio Melo ✅Podcast Art: Kate Lillard ✅Theme Song: "Something Else" by Nu Alkemi$t Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands