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What if the future of the Church isn’t about choosing between what we’ve inherited and what’s emerging—but making room for both? In this episode of Season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with Michael Binder and Dwight Zscheile to explore what faithful innovation looks like in a rapidly changing Church. Together, they talk about the challenges facing inherited church structures, the longing for deeper purpose and belonging, and the surprising ways God is already raising up new leaders and communities. Drawing from their work in faithful innovation and the “mixed ecology” of the Church, Michael and Dwight invite us to expand our imagination about what Christian community can look like. They explore the power of small experiments, lay-led ministry, listening to our neighbors, and giving ordinary people permission to follow where they sense God leading. Looking toward the next 10–20 years, they share a hopeful vision of a Church where inherited traditions and new expressions don't compete, but learn from and strengthen one another.

What if the gospel is bigger than our individual salvation—and what might that mean for the future of the Church? In this episode of Season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with author, organizer, and public theologian Lisa Sharon Harper to explore how our understanding of the gospel shapes the way we imagine and build the future. Drawing from her own journey of rethinking faith through the stories of oppression in her family history, Lisa shares how the biblical vision of shalom offers a more expansive picture of the good news—one rooted in the healing and flourishing of the whole world. Together, Nick and Lisa explore the connection between faith, justice, systems, and social change, asking what it means for the Church to move beyond a reduced gospel and toward a vision of radical connection, reconciliation, and the flourishing of all. They also talk about the dangers of fundamentalism, the importance of becoming better listeners, and why the future of the Church may depend on our willingness to reimagine what God is actually calling us toward. Follow Lisa: Instagram: @lisasharper Substack:  @lisasharonharper

What if the Church’s future is already taking shape–in new generations, new communities, and new ways of following Jesus? In this episode of Season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with Rev. Dr. Alexia Salvatierra, pastor, scholar, and community organizer, to explore how immigrant churches, younger generations, and emerging multicultural communities are shaping what comes next for the Church in the United States. Together, they discuss the tension between honoring the faith of previous generations and making room for new expressions, the power of intergenerational collaboration, and the ways the Holy Spirit is creating something new through cultural hybridity and experimentation. Alexia offers a hopeful vision of a Church that is not standing still, but becoming–one generation, one community, and one Spirit-led experiment at a time. She can be reached at [email protected].

What if the future of the Church depends less on having the right answers and more on learning to discern where God is already at work? In episode 6 of Season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with Rev. Scot Sherman, founder and executive director of the Center for Church Innovation, to explore how faithful innovation begins with curiosity, humility, and spiritual leadership. Together, they discuss why certainty can become an obstacle to transformation, how existing churches can embrace change without abandoning their roots, and why listening–to God, to one another, and to our neighbors–is essential for cultivating a hopeful future for the Church. Drawing from decades of experience in church planting, congregational renewal, and denominational leadership, Scot offers a compelling vision for churches seeking to navigate change with courage and grace. If you're passionate about renewing existing churches, leading through uncertainty, or discovering how faithful innovation can emerge from deep spiritual practices and courageous experimentation, this conversation will encourage you to embrace the tension between tradition and transformation as you join God's work in the world.

What does it mean for the Church to follow the "grace cloud" into the future? In episode 5 of Season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with Rev. Darrell Hamilton, Executive Pastor of First Baptist Church in Jamaica Plain, to explore what it will take for the Church not only to survive, but to flourish in the generations ahead. Together, they discuss the importance of cultivating a bigger theological imagination, embracing spiritual formation alongside justice, and creating churches that are rooted in humility, generosity, and faithful innovation. From the power of Black liberation theology to the responsibility of passing the baton to the next generation of leaders, Darrell offers a compelling vision for a Church that moves with the Spirit rather than simply reacting to the world around it. If you're passionate about reimagining the future of the Church, nurturing the next generation of faithful leaders, or discovering how God is inviting us into deeper imagination and embodiment, this conversation will inspire you to plant seeds today for a future you may never see–but one we have a responsibility to build.

What if the future of the Church begins by listening—to God, to one another, and to the stories unfolding all around us? In episode 4 of season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with Nikki Collins, Storytelling Ministry Director with Future of Faith and longtime leader in the Presbyterian Church (USA), to explore how storytelling, faithful innovation, and courageous experimentation are shaping the next chapter of the Church. Together, they discuss the power of diverse worshiping communities, the importance of building relationships across denominational systems, and why creating spaces of genuine welcome is essential for those returning to faith after experiencing hurt or exclusion. If you're passionate about cultivating hopeful communities, leading through change, or discovering where God is already at work in unexpected places, this conversation will encourage you to embrace curiosity, humility, and the courage to try something new.

What if the future of the Church depends less on having the right answers—and more on cultivating the right relationships? In episode 3 of season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with Albert Hung, District Superintendent of the Northern California District Church of the Nazarene, to explore why middle judicatory leaders may hold one of the most important roles in discerning the future of the Church. Together, they discuss why deep spiritual formation must come before innovation, how tradition and experimentation can work hand in hand, and why today's leaders are called to cultivate connection rather than simply manage institutions. Albert shares his vision for fostering networks of belonging, empowering fresh expressions of church, and helping communities discern where the Holy Spirit is already at work. If you're passionate about faithful innovation, denominational leadership, or imagining a more connected and hopeful future for the Church, this conversation is one you won't want to miss.

How do the stories we tell shape the future of the Church? In the first interview of Season 6, Nick Warnes sits down with minister and public theologian Trey Ferguson to explore the power of language, public faith, and faithful imagination. Together, they discuss how telling a better story can help the Church build trust, cultivate belonging, and faithfully engage the world around us. Trey is a minister and public theologian who likes playing with words. So that’s what he does. Whether it be with tweets, videos, essays, sermonic presentations, Bible studies, podcasts, or speaking engagements of other sorts, he’s always trying to figure out how to provoke an image in a seeker with some combination of words. When he’s not playing with words, he’s usually apologizing to his wife Jessica for playing too much, teaching his children to play too much, or letting some sports team disappoint him again. Follow Trey on social media: @pastortrey05

The Church has always evolved to meet the needs of a changing world. In Season 6 of the Cyclical Podcast, we sit down with faithful innovators, pastors, theologians, and community leaders to imagine what the next chapter might hold. Rather than predicting the future, these conversations explore how the Church can remain rooted in the Gospel while boldly adapting to new realities, embracing innovation, and responding with creativity to the challenges and opportunities ahead. Join us as we ask not just where the Church is going, but how we can faithfully help shape it together.

Today we interview Eric Sarwar, church starter in Fresno, California.  BDGT churches are led by a team of gifted people who share a vision for new people joining the family of God in large quantities. They are cultivating a new kind of growing community that they hope will revolutionize the Church.  They don’t need much to get started, just a large enough space to gather the church, plus space to spare for newcomers. They might share a sanctuary with an asset-based church or rent out a school gym to hold worship gatherings. Their rate of growth means they keep outgrowing their gathering spaces. Because of this tension, they often do not last long as a BDGT. Many BDGT churches are on their way to developing stronger assets as ADGT churches, or they slow their growth and become more stable BDCT churches. To take your Church Shapes assessment, head to Cyclicalinc.com/church-shapes

Today Nick and Brendan reflect on what they learned from various guests of this season. Building the plan while we fly it and needing these conversations to draft the framework itself Churches inhabit different shapes depending on their season This assessment is not just for church starters and discerners. The surprising significance of the binary between Point Leader and Decentralized Leadership.

Today we interview Katie Nakamura Rengers about the church she started called The Abbey.  ADCI churches are highly resourced for missionary endeavors. These churches have an abundance of leaders who are tightly connected and passionate about transforming the way the particular church is expressed. They make significant investments in running lots of experiments, welcoming failure and being able to quickly adapt. Ministry tends to happen in nodes of interdependent smaller groups, each with a unique mission and with autonomous discerning leadership. Take your Church Shapes assessment at Cyclicalinc.com/church-shapes

Today we interview Matt Yount, pastor at Victory Point Church in Holland, Michigan.  APGT churches are led by a point leader with strong shepherding and teaching gifts who gathers many people into a large centralized worship service and excellent programming for the sake of reaching many people with the good news of Jesus. Some have called APGT churches the “launch large model” because in order to start, these kinds of churches need many people to commit upfront. APGT churches are staff-driven, culture-changing organizations that are seeking to develop and reproduce new ways of doing and being church.  BDCI churches are led by a decentralized team of people who want to practice living on mission together. They have the feel of a missionary team. They understand themselves as sent by God to be a blessing in their community. They usually meet in homes or public spaces, and they usually operate with no formal budget. They provide strong support for one another. They are not concerned with growing their numbers, but with faithfulness in following Jesus. They do not want to be governed by a larger church, but prefer to exist “under the radar” in a specific niche where they can experiment in mission. Take your Church Shapes assessment at Cyclicalinc.com/church-shapes

Today we interview Yosam Manafa about the church he started in the San Fernando valley.  BDGT churches are led by a team of gifted people who share a vision for new people joining the family of God in large quantities. They are cultivating a new kind of growing community that they hope will revolutionize the Church.  They don’t need much to get started, just a large enough space to gather the church, plus space to spare for newcomers. They might share a sanctuary with an asset-based church or rent out a school gym to hold worship gatherings. Their rate of growth means they keep outgrowing their gathering spaces. Because of this tension, they often do not last long as a BDGT. Many BDGT churches are on their way to developing stronger assets as ADGT churches, or they slow their growth and become more stable BDCT churches. Take your Church Shapes assessment at Cyclicalinc.com/church-shapes

Today we interview Debbie Bronkema, the founding pastor of Connect.Faith.  BDGI churches are highly apostolic in leadership. They are content to start with little to no resources. They decentralize leadership in order to leverage a variety of gifts necessary for their innovation. They have their eyes set on growth, envisioning an organic movement that they can catalyze. They are inspired to start a church that can express itself in ways that presses the boundaries of what we understand church to be. BDGI churches have the feel of an experiment, seeking to transform the Church. Leaders are pioneering, shrewd, and entrepreneurial. Starting this kind of church involves a unique kind of risk; they are called to incarnate the gospel in a niche part of culture where there is not yet a witnessing community. To take the assessment head to cyclicalinc.com/church-shapes today