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Send us Fan Mail Betsey Newenhuyse and I are back for another Beach Talk, and this time we're spending considerable time on a question that could have enormous consequences for the upcoming midterm elections: Where do Americans get their news, and do they even know? There was a time when we could identify our sources: the newspaper, a magazine, or a particular television network. Not anymore. Today, news finds us through social media, email, search engines, and countless online encounters. Media researchers call it source amnesia or source decay—we remember the information but have forgotten where it came from. What does that mean for our ability to distinguish reporting from misinformation, and fact from opinion, when we're making decisions about our democracy? We'll also look at Fox News' declining audience, Trump's and Obama's very different rally styles, the growing role of Christian rhetoric in the midterms, Pete Buttigieg's political activities, and the races worth watching in the Senate and House. Along the way, we'll discuss flooding in California and Florida, Netanyahu and Israel, some provocative commentary in Christianity Today, and celebrate the Brewers' World Series victory. Expect candid conversation, more than a little humor, and plenty of questions worth discussing! SHOW NOTES Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail What happens when politics becomes more than politics - when it shapes our identity, our faith, and our relationships with the people we love? In this episode of Two Kens, my longtime co-host, Ken Fong, and I begin with a lighter subject: Ken Fong’s previous interview with Arasha Lalani, the Indian-American actress and comedian known professionally as Arasha, has gone viral. We reflect on what makes a conversation come alive. Acting and preaching, we suggest, are not monologues. At their best, both are active, engaging dialogues that invite us to listen, respond, and discover something new. From there, we turn to a more sobering subject: Natalie Harp, one of Donald Trump’s most devoted supporters, often called his “human printer.” Recent reporting about Natalie and her family raises difficult questions about the intersection of faith, politics, grief, and family relationships. Natalie’s father, Robert Harp, was a respected business professor at Biola University who, according to her brother Preston’s accounts cited in reporting, was skeptical of Trump’s claims to Christian faith. Following his tragic death by suicide, Natalie’s political profile grew. Her brother pursued a very different ideological path. Their story offers a glimpse into the complicated ways political commitments can intersect with family life. As two former evangelical pastors, Ken and I explore the tensions between traditional evangelical convictions and MAGA politics, the challenges of discussing mental health and grief in religious communities, and the human longing for belonging, certainty, and protection. We don’t presume to know all the private motivations behind this family’s experience. Instead, we ask what its story might help us understand about a nation increasingly divided by political identity. Join us for a candid, compassionate conversation about faith, family, Trumpism, and the search for common ground. SHOW NOTES Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail Ethicist Dr. Gushee returns to the podcast and continues the discussion of his most recent book, After Evangelicalism: The Path to a New Christianity. We talk about the election, the Biden victory, and the 70 million voters who embrace the Trumpian version of reality. He calls it a moral crisis.  Gushee remembers Rachel Held Evans, and gives honorable mention to Blake Chastain and Brad Onishi; we talk about high profile Trumpian evangelicals Paula White, Jerry Falwell, Jr., Robert Jeffress, and Eric Metaxas. Gushee takes issue with Metaxas' version of Bonhoeffer. After a review of the Georgia Senate races, we focus on Gushee's proposal for a new Christian Humanism.  With David's permission, Ken reads a passage from David's new book about Martin Luther (the dominionist) and Erasmus (a Christian humanist). SHOW NOTES This episode was first aired December 4, 2020 Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail REPRIS - Ken welcomes his good friend of the podcast, Dr. Theon Hill. Just recently, Christianity Today published Dr. Hill's review of the recent full-length feature film that's getting high marks and a great review: Till (starring Danielle Deadwyler as Mamie Till and Jalyn Hall as Emmett). Just this fall, Dr. Hill hosted a conversation at Wheaton College featuring author David Tell (Remembering Emmett Till), who was also the lead investigator in the Emmett Till Memory Project, and Emmett Till's cousin, Rev. Wheeler Parker (Argo Temple Church of God in Christ in Summit, Illinois). That fateful summer of 1955, Pastor Parker, accompanied Emmett on that visit to Money, Mississippi. He witnessed both the incident at the market when Emmett "whistled" at Carolyn Bryant, and was in the house in the middle of the night when Emmett was kidnapped by her husband. Dr. Hill shares their conversation. Ken and Dr. Hill discuss the relevance of the Emmett Till story on race in America and in the evangelical church. SHOW NOTES This episode first aired November 22, 2022 Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail REPRISE - Dr. Peter Enns returns to the podcast to discuss his brand new book Curve-ball - When Your Faith Takes Turns You Never Saw Coming* or How I Stumbled and Tripped My Way to Finding a Bigger God. Pete admits it's the longest title in the history of publishing. The popular professor, author (see show notes for his many other books), and podcaster (The Bible for Normal People) drops his guard like never before sharing his spiritual and intellectual journey from his days as an aspiring baseball player to progressive Christian thinker. "Wrestling with God and Scripture is very old and completely normal. Actually, it's God-activated," he says. In reviewing the book, Ken and Pete talk about Noah, Jonah, and Jesus as archetypes in the struggle. Richard Rohr, David Bentley Hart, Thomas Oord and Rachel Held Evans get honorable mention as guides. Evolution is a major "curveball" for many Christians. Pete is especially interested in the chaos and "weirdness" of physics and quantum mechanics, all of which have opened Pete's mind and heart to a much bigger and more profound notion of God. While Pete avoids the clichéd use of the overused and misappropriated descriptor, "deconstruction," he traces a normal, natural, and healthy evolution in our understanding of faith and our relationship to the God of the Universe. SHOW NOTES This program first aired May 19, 2023 Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail Today’s Beach Talk begins with a review of the loss of feminist champion Gloria Steinem. Betsey recalls her non-religious college years, when feminism was opening new possibilities for women and challenging assumptions about marriage, work, and identity. We talk about another big loss - Dolly Parton, admired by all of us, including Gloria.  Ken reviews Kristin Kobes Du Mez’s fascinating new book, Live Laugh Love—and reflects on how far some of those cultural conversations have taken us. From there, we wander into apocalyptic thinking, from AI to the Rapture and Left Behind, and ask whether our energy might be better spent facing real problems through cooperation, creativity, and problem-solving. And, of course, we talk politics—but also about something more personal: how do we stay connected to friends and family whose political views are very different from our own? SHOW NOTES | Ken’s Substack: Apocalypse Now Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail REPRISE: Today, we welcome a conversation with Dr. Christian Smith, one of America’s leading sociologists of religion. He studied at Wheaton and Gordon College, earned an M.A. and PhD at Harvard, and currently serves as the William R. Kenan Jr. Professor of Sociology at the University of Notre Dame. You may know him from his groundbreaking research on adolescent spirituality, but in this episode, we dive into the sweeping themes of his current book, Why Religion Went Obsolete: The Demise of Traditional Faith in America, released in April 2025 from Oxford University Press. We examine the profound cultural and generational shifts that have contributed to the decline of religion in America—what Dr. Smith refers to as a slow but steady obsolescence. From the rise of the “nones” and the “spiritual but not religious,” to the scandals, the loss of clergy credibility, and the overwhelming politicization of faith, especially within evangelical circles, we unpack it all. Dr. Smith is data-driven, deeply thoughtful, and committed to honesty—he doesn’t just describe the trends; he interprets them with nuance and care. We also talk about the fears that drive some religious communities to build protective bubbles—Christian schools, worldview camps, media silos—and how those moves may be accelerating the very decline they fear. This is a conversation about cultural change, generational transitions, science, sexuality, and what it means to seek moral grounding in a rapidly shifting world. This episode invites us to ask: When has religion truly been good? And can it be good again? As James Baldwin once said, “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.” SHOW NOTES Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail Twenty-five years ago, we woke up to a terrible tragedy. We remember the images. The first plane. The second plane. The towers collapsing. The Pentagon burning. The field in Pennsylvania. We remember the smoke, the sirens, the stunned faces—and the terrible realization that the most powerful nation on earth was suddenly, frighteningly vulnerable. But we also remember something else. For a brief moment, we seemed to remember how to be Americans together. We stood in line to give blood. We gathered in churches and synagogues and mosques. We put flags on our cars. We embraced strangers. We grieved together. And then something changed. Twenty-five years later, the question for us isn't simply what happened on September 11, 2001. We know what happened. The harder question is: What happened to us afterward? How did the trauma of that morning reshape our understanding of God? How did it change American Christianity? How did fear of terrorism become fear of Islam—and eventually, perhaps, fear of one another? We went to war. We expanded government surveillance. We embraced a doctrine of preemptive military action. We spent trillions of dollars. And somewhere along the way, the extraordinary unity we experienced after 9/11 began to fracture. So today on this special edition of the Two Kens, Ken Fong and I go back—not simply to the morning America was attacked, but to the 25 years that followed. We two former pastors are asking questions that are both political and deeply personal: Where was God? What did we become? And what, if anything, can we learn from 9/11 before fear teaches us the same lessons all over again? SHOW NOTES Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail In Part One of my conversation with Scott Chesebro, we talked about a life shaped by curiosity - by people, places, questions, and a willingness to look beyond the boundaries of his own religious and cultural experience. Scott has never understood faith as simply a system of beliefs about heaven and hell. For him, it has been a way of being in community and of remaining open to the lives and experiences of others. In Part Two, our conversation becomes more intimate. Scott is living with an incurable lung disease and has made the deeply personal decision to enter hospice. Yet this is not simply a conversation about illness or dying. It is about how a person looks back on a life well lived - and what he hopes to leave behind. We talk about Norene, his partner in marriage and tireless companion; about raising their two sons on Chicago’s South Side and now watching their grandchildren grow up there; about race, public schools, faith communities, and the former students who continue to visit him. We talk about travel, including a journey through West Africa and along the Slave Road, and the curiosity that has guided Scott since childhood. And eventually, we arrive at the question all of us must face: What do you want the people you love to remember? Scott’s answer is both simple and profound: “I’m not afraid to die. I just don’t want to leave.” SHOW NOTES Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail There are some conversations we know we will remember for the rest of our lives. This is one of them. My longtime friend Scott Chesebro and I share a history that stretches back decades - our education, our years in Chicago, our careers, our families, and our love for a city that has meant so much to both of us. But this conversation took place at a very different moment in Scott’s life. Scott is now receiving hospice care at home, living with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, a progressive disease that has severely damaged his lungs. After being denied a lung transplant, Scott made the deeply personal decision to enter hospice. When I called him, the people helping with his cremation had just visited - and had suggested that he record something to be played at his memorial service. “Did that feel weird?” I asked. What followed was anything but morbid. Scott was alert, thoughtful, philosophical - and remarkably open. We talked about his journey from Bible School to the University of Michigan to Notre Dame, his career as a professor and four decades as director of the Chicago Center, his beloved wife Noreen, his children and grandchildren, and the city he has loved since 1966. Most of all, we talked about life, death, memory, and what he hopes his grandchildren will know about their Grandpa Scott. This is a conversation about dying—but even more, it is a conversation about living. SHOW NOTES Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail What happens when you take a position at a university because you believe it will honor your faith—only to discover that the institution you trusted is not what you imagined?  That’s the story of my guest, Julia E. Inglis, Ph.D., MPH, RD. Julia is a nutrition scientist, researcher, clinician, writer, and educator who spent nearly four years as an associate professor at Liberty University, teaching nutrition, chronic disease, research methods, and sports nutrition. She came to Liberty University with high hopes. Here was a university that openly affirmed her Christian faith. She expected an institution where faith and rigorous scholarship could coexist - and perhaps even strengthen one another. Instead, Julia encountered an academic culture that, in her experience, too often placed ideology ahead of scholarship. She describes low academic standards, grade inflation, unqualified faculty, closed doors when she raised questions, and a campus culture increasingly shaped by ultra-conservative politics and Christian nationalism. She also became deeply troubled by how allegations of sexual abuse were handled. Eventually, Julia resigned. But she didn’t simply walk away. She decided that her experience needed to be told - not as an attack on Christianity, but as a warning about what can happen when a university becomes more committed to protecting its institution, its politics, and its power than to pursuing truth. Today, Julia tells that story—and what she learned from it. Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail Today, we begin by looking ahead to Betsey Newenhuyse's upcoming three-week adventure in Costa Rica, where she'll explore the rainforest and indulge her family’s passion for birding. I also share highlights from four memorable days in Park City, Utah, with my three brothers - a rare gathering of just the four of us. Between hot air ballooning, river rafting, and long conversations filled with memories, laughter, and hopes for the future, it became a time I'll treasure for years. Then we shift to the unsettling congressional hearing targeting Dr. Anthony Fauci. It brought back memories of those frightening early days of the pandemic and how quickly a public health crisis became a political battleground. We discuss Fauci's remarkable career under Dr. Francis Collins, the honors he received from both George W. Bush and Donald Trump. Figures like Rand Paul and Adam Kinzinger have become part of a much larger story about truth, politics, and public trust. From there, we talk about the rapidly approaching midterm elections. We review Pete Buttigieg's growing national presence - and the disturbing rise of political intimidation.  Finally, we end with a discussion of that remarkable Concert for Peace featuring Pope Leo, Andrea Bocelli, inspiring young voices from war-torn countries around the world, and a moving rendition of "Amazing Grace" that left both of us reflecting on what reconciliation might actually look like. Ken’s Substack: The Concert of Peace - Amazing Grace, How Sweet the Sound Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail Welcome back to Two Kens with my good friend, Ken Fong. Every so often we record a conversation that challenges us as much as it challenges our listeners. This is one of those episodes. We begin with a hilarious - but surprisingly insightful - clip from Leslie Jones that opens the door to an honest conversation about race, the myth of colorblindness, code-switching, white fragility, and the stories America tells itself. Then we turn to Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, where Odysseus is portrayed not as an untouchable hero but as a man scarred by war. It raises powerful questions about trauma, empathy, and whether compassion still has a place in a culture that rewards certainty. Finally, we welcome musician Joseph Tseng, whose remarkable album Shanghai: An American Story explores immigration, identity, family, and belonging. Ken and I aren't trying to win arguments. We're trying to ask better questions, believing that curiosity, empathy, and honest conversation still have the power to change us. Robin D’Angelo - White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism Leslie Jones on Colorblind White Guys Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail Every once in a while I read a book that stays with me long after I've turned the final page. That's exactly what happened when I discovered Theo of Golden by Allen Levi. In fact, I was so moved that I immediately read it a second time - something I almost never do. The novel inspired two essays for my Substack, and in this episode I bring those reflections together. More than a book review, this is an invitation to consider the quiet power of kindness, empathy, hospitality, and grace - and why those virtues may be exactly what our divided world needs today. Substack #1 - Theo of Golden: A Paradigm Shift in an Era of Culture War Substack #2 - The Gospel According to Theo: Allen Levi is my kind of Christian Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com

Send us Fan Mail This week, I’m reaching back into the archive to reprise the most popular episode in the history of my podcast. The Rev. Ben Cremer has built a significant and growing social media presence—one that caught my attention when I stumbled across a lengthy essay he titled “Myths We Believe.” In it, Ben details the things he was taught to embrace but has since had to unlearn. As I read it, I was struck by how closely his journey tracked my own. Ben was homeschooled from kindergarten through twelfth grade in what he describes as “a deeply conservative environment in rural Idaho—as far right politically and theologically as you can imagine.” He would eventually serve as a pastor in a small, traditional, conservative church that mirrored Idaho’s deep-red culture, and later as campus pastor at Cathedral of the Rockies, a progressive, affirming United Methodist congregation in Boise. He no longer serves as pastor at either church. When we recorded this conversation, Ben had recently appeared on Boise’s local ABC affiliate, Channel 7, in a feature exploring politics and religion. The journalist interviewed two pastors at opposite ends of the spectrum: Blaine Conzatti, a conservative pastor affiliated with the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches and president of the Idaho Family Policy Center, and Ben. In our conversation, Ben and I unpack his remarkable journey, beginning with those early homeschool years and a curriculum rooted in the “Christian Identity” movement—a worldview that denied the Holocaust, argued that slavery was good because it introduced Africans to Christianity, and taught that the separation of races was part of God’s design. From there, Ben moved through college and graduate school, where he learned to read widely, ask questions, and pursue his curiosity. His passion for ministry took him through seminary and into pastoral ministry. But lonely, underpaid, and increasingly burdened by questions, Ben slipped into a dark spiritual depression. In this vulnerable and deeply open conversation, Ben tells his story of recovery, redemption, and transformation—and of finding a faith that is open, fresh, and alive. It remains the most listened-to episode in my podcast history. If you missed it the first time—or if you’re ready to hear it again—I think you’ll understand why. SHOW NOTES Sign up for Ben's Newsletter INTO THE GRAY Support the show Become a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken’s Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com