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Stop Losing Leads: How to Fix Your B2B Startup Positioning Architecture Most B2B tech startups hit a ceiling when founder-led sales and marketing stalls growth. When they assess why their pipeline has stalled, they almost always assume they have a demand generation problem. However, a deeper analysis usually uncovers that the actual pain point is a fractured positioning and go-to-market (GTM) architecture. So, how can B2B tech startups diagnose and fix their positioning architecture to ignite more robust, predictable , and sustainable growth? That’s why we’re talking to return guest Adrijana Daragon (Founder, GTM Advantage), who shares her expertise and insights on how to fix your B2B startup positioning architecture. During our conversation, Adrijana shared some of the common pitfalls B2B that cause tech startups to fail, specifically focusing on the disconnect between product features and market needs. She stressed the critical importance of early market validation and understanding customer needs instead of obsessing over the technology and features. Adrijana also explained why founders must narrow their focus to specific ideal customer segments to ensure their messaging truly resonates with potential buyers. She concluded by highlighting the value of continuous iteration and learning from pilot projects to refine GTM strategies and attain scalable, predictable growth. https://youtu.be/mO99oSKyYGE Topics discussed in episode: [02:56] Why startups often mistake a positioning and go-to-market architecture problem for a lack of market demand [04:30] The reason targeting the right ICP fails if the customer lacks a sense of urgency or purchasing intent [05:17] How to identify when a founder becomes a growth bottleneck during the transition to a delegated team model [10:49] The danger of “fake validation” from startup ecosystems versus getting reality checks from actual buyers [21:30] Why increasing marketing budgets is ineffective if your messaging fails to connect with the customer’s problem [30:51] How narrowing your focus to a single industry enables faster iteration and more scalable traction [39:36] Using a growth mindset to define success criteria, turning pilot projects into long-term client relationships Companies and links mentioned: Adrijana Daragon on LinkedIn  GTM Advantage Transcript Adrijana Daragon, Christian Klepp Adrijana Daragon  00:00 Founders think about the go to market as a post, post activity, versus doing it early on, so meaning they are really of over focus on technology alone and thinking when the talk technology will be the product will be launched, that’s when the customers will come, especially like if the founders are engineers or coming from the medical background, this is the domain. This is where the this is the comfort zone. So they are really focusing on the technology. And that’s true, this is like bigger competitive advantage, but the commercial part, getting really early on understanding who are the market, what’s the feedback, even integrating that into a building technology so important. Christian Klepp  00:43 Most B2B tech startups hit a wall when founder-led marketing stalls growth. When they analyze where they went wrong, they almost always assume they have a demand problem. But when you look deeper, you realize that their real pain point lies in their positioning and go to market architecture. So how can B2B startups fix their positioning architecture problem to ignite more robust and sustainable growth? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Adrijana Daragon, who will be answering this question. She’s the founder at Go To Market (GTM) Advantage, who helps turn go to market into a predictable pipeline and revenue for B2B tech startups. Let’s dive right in. Okay, and off we go. I’m gonna say, Adrijana Daragon, welcome to the show. Adrijana Daragon  01:30 Hello. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:33 Great to be connected again, Adrijana. And I’m gonna say thank you to Anna Wondany from Hey CMO, for connecting us. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because we’re going to talk about something that, on the surface doesn’t seem like it’s extremely important, but we’re going to start unpacking that, and then we’ll realize like, oh, wow, we really should be paying attention to this. Take some notes, learn and be inspired no? Adrijana Daragon  01:58 Yes, true. I’m really excited about it, and I can see really quite some founders can benefit from this knowledge. Christian Klepp  02:05 Absolutely, absolutely. So if you don’t mind, we’ll, we’ll just jump straight in, and I’ll ask you the first question. So you’re, I’m going to say, on a mission to help B2B Tech scale ups, grow and increase their inbound leads. But for this conversation, I’d like to focus on this following topic, and then we can unpack it from there. So the topic is how B2B startups can fix their positioning architecture problem. Now that sounds like a really fancy marketing term, but we’re going to unpack it now and then everybody will realize, like, how crucial this actually is. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question. So Adrijana, in our previous conversation, you mentioned that most B2B startups think they have a demand problem, but in reality, when you dig deeper, what they actually have is a positioning and go to market architecture problem. So can you please explain that? Adrijana Daragon  02:56 Sure. So it’s highly depends on the stage the startup scale up is it’s different challenges. There are different challenges at the beginning, when there is early stage. Startup is about just doing different tests, trying the founders, typically the one that driving the sales and marketing efforts and connecting, getting the early feedback, validating it afterwards, when it starts to be already, you gain traction. You know, you had a successful especially in deep tech. It’s a lot about the pilot, securing both successful pilots, moving from the pilots to for to the ongoing client relationships. That’s when the it’s becomes much more about challenge of not only trying, testing different activities, but really seeing how what really makes sense, because there are a lot of challenges when you have a lot of activities, but we don’t bring the results, we don’t bring the revenue You want, and that’s especially when I work with startups. When we have both conversations, we have the initial demand, interest, especially interest. We have those conversations with potential clients, however they don’t convert. And that’s really where we are, kind of talking about the not originally positioning itself a problem, but it’s also about the go to market. And one big mistake clients do is when they focus on the target ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), but the target ICP, it doesn’t have a sense of urgency to buy, so the purchasing intent is not there. So that’s why, like a lot of times, you have a lot of internet conversations, everybody says, so your solution looks really interesting. However, that doesn’t result in result in the sales? Christian Klepp  04:55 Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, you brought some really great points there, and I add two follow up questions for you. So I think the first one, especially when you’re talking about startups, and I can’t help but ask you this question, but do you sometimes feel when you’re interacting with your clients, especially when you’re trying to address these problems with them? Do you sometimes feel that it’s the founder that is the bottleneck? Adrijana Daragon  05:17 It’s true as well. Like you know, as a startup grows as well, the founder learns a lot, and it’s also, it’s a big growth journey as well, big growth journey. And as well activities we do. The mindset also shifts with every stage. So there are like, different stages of a company. When it’s founding team, it’s small team. When you bring the first, highest, first outsource, outsourcing that depends already, where you need to communicate clearly that to delegate what you want actually to achieve. So these people know your vision and goals. That’s really when it starts to be the first bottleneck of really making when you are bringing more people, how the it can they can work most effectively as well as a team? Christian Klepp  06:08 Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. So that’s, that’s the first question. The second question is, and I know you and I both know what positioning is, but I feel for people outside the marketing discipline, they throw that, that statement or that word around very freely. So let’s just clear the air there a little bit, and just please break it down for us. What does positioning mean, and how is it relevant to inbound and revenue and other things like that? Adrijana Daragon  06:39 I think it’s there are multiple aspects, but this positioning is more. What do you want to stand in there, in in the minds of and hearts of other people? How do you want to be for them? Be remembered so it’s not only remembered so that people can say and articulate also well, what you do for yourself, uh, yourself. And then obviously, ideally, that also, it’s repeatable, that also the clients and the rest can say, and that’s not that easy sounds, but it’s not only one statement, positioning statement, and when it’s all done, positioning is a lot about work together, the about the ICP and for the ICP, so ideal client profile? And that’s a lot about understanding, especially if it is multiple industries, multiple especially on enterprises or like, there are big buying cycles, who are the right people. So it’s a buying center. There are a lot of people who are users, who are e

From Bland to Brilliant: How to Strategically Pivot Your B2B Brand In an environment defined by market instability, rapid AI adoption, and more competitors entering the ecosystem all the time, it has become increasingly challenging for B2B companies to truly differentiate themselves. Unfortunately, many companies fall into the trap of deploying “play it safe” marketing tactics, ultimately drowning in the sea of sameness. So, how can B2B marketing leaders strategically rise above the noise to transform a generic market presence into a successful, category-leading brand? That’s why we’re talking to return guest Pete Fairburn (Director and Co-Founder, Morphsites), who shares his expertise and proven strategies on how to strategically pivot your B2B brand. During our conversation, Pete highlighted the challenges B2B marketers face in differentiating their brands in a competitive market. He emphasized the value of understanding customer pain points, and how brands can create true value beyond just the product. Pete also discussed common pitfalls to avoid, such as mistaking activity for progress, and why deep thinking and customer research are paramount. He advised against “random acts of marketing” and recommended starting with small, achievable pilots. Pete also stressed the value of focusing on critical metrics such as customer acquisition cost (CAC), lifetime value (LTV), and conversion quality. He underscored the need to align marketing efforts with broader business goals to avoid competing solely on price. https://youtu.be/SEgt1i2UuVQ Topics discussed in episode: [03:06] Why copying competitors kills true differentiation. [04:54] How short-term metrics create a risk-averse leadership mindset. [06:06] The danger of mistaking marketing activity for actual business progress [12:06] Using customer research to uncover pain points and speak their language. [18:21] Elevate commodity products by removing friction outside your core offer. [24:41] How to pitch new ideas to the C-Suite (Hint: stop using the word “innovation”). [36:11] Why great marketing can never fix a weak or undifferentiated offer. Companies and links mentioned: Pete Fairburn on LinkedIn  Morphsites Transcript Christian Klepp, Pete Fairburn Pete Fairburn  00:00 No human being really likes to admit they don’t know something, even if you’re a naturally quite humble person, it takes, it takes something to say, I don’t know what that is, or I don’t know how to go about that, particularly if you’re a business owner or a stakeholder, that can often be seen as a sign of weakness, to say, I don’t know something. And yet, actually, when you have the courage to say that you can, you can uncover some real things, and at the end of the day, particularly if you’re employing marketing professionals or an agency to help you, the whole reason you’re doing that is because you’ve kind of already admitted you don’t really know how to do this. Pete Fairburn  00:32 Nice to be back, Christian. Thanks for having me again. Christian Klepp  00:32 Great to be with you. You know we’ve been talking about this second interview for quite a while on I’m glad that we’re finally getting to pull it off, right? Pete Fairburn  00:32 It’s definitely, it’s been a while. It’s been a whole world. Christian Klepp  00:32 Indeed, indeed. So let’s just dive in. Because, you know, this is Pete, as I said before I hit record, this is a topic that’s near and dear to me, and I think it’s something that we contend with on a daily basis. I think there’s still a lot of clients out there and potential clients that don’t quite see the value in doing this yet, and hopefully, after this conversation, perhaps we’ll, we’ll change their we’ll win them over, right, like hearts and minds, as they say, right? Pete Fairburn  00:32 That’s the hope. Christian Klepp  00:32 In a, B2B environment fraught with unstable markets, AI and more competitors entering the ecosystem all the time, it has become increasingly challenging for B2B companies to stand up. Unfortunately, companies in this segment have a reputation for deploying play it safe tactics when it comes to their marketing. So how can B2B marketers help their brands rise above the noise and go from bland to brilliant? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Pete Fairburn, who will be answering this question. He’s the director and co founder of Morphsites, a company with a proven track record in helping businesses grow online by maximizing revenue potential and improving efficiency. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is. Okay, and here we are. I’m going to say, Mr. Pete Fairburn, welcome back to the show. Christian Klepp  01:15 All right. So we’ll start with the first question, where I’m going to say that you’re on a mission to work with high growth brands that truly want to innovate and think beyond the ordinary. And I want to, like just under underline that part think beyond the ordinary, because I hope that we can talk about this at length today, right? Because for this conversation, I’d want to focus on the following topic, which is how B2B Marketers can help their brands go from bland to brilliant, right? So B2B open to interpretation, right? But let’s kick off the Let’s kick off the interview with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them, right? So first question Pete is, why do you think many companies in the B2B space struggle to differentiate themselves from their competitors? And the follow up question is, why do you think this causes this risk averse mindset in most B2B verticals? Pete Fairburn  03:06 Yes, it’s good couple of questions there. And I think most, most B2B companies that identify with this problem probably don’t have a marketing problem, or if they do have a marketing problem, it’s because the the issues started long before marketing even begins, and the they default. So they go, Okay, we’ve got similar products or similar services to these brands over here, and there’s nothing wrong with using coach brands to help you, but they’ll they may look at some in the same space as them and go, Well, that’s what they’re doing. So let’s do the same messaging, the same channels as them, because that must work, right? It must work because they’re doing it. But they’ve never really answered the question, Well, why would someone choose us over any of these competitors if price was removed? So if the only thing that differentiates you is your product, your positioning, your messaging, forget price, forget everything else. Why would they choose you? And there’s there’s two kind of camps here. If your product is genuinely desirable, genuinely distinct, the website’s job is just to create clarity around that. But if your product is not distinctive, it’s a commodity, you need to create advantage elsewhere. And many companies are in the second camp, but they operate like they’re in the first, and that’s why they struggle to differentiate. Christian Klepp  04:37 And where do you think a lot of this risk averseness then comes from? Is it this whole like, well, we’ve never done any of this marketing before, so, you know, we’re not entirely sure what the outcome will be. And let’s, let’s, let’s play it safe. Where do you think this comes from? Pete Fairburn  04:53 Yeah, I think you’re on to something there. One of the big problems with marketing is it’s measured on typically short term activity, right, rather than long term advantage. You know, every agency or every marketing department creates a monthly marketing report, and it’s right to do that, but it makes you focus on just that short term rather than longer term things. And that can shoot any initiative in the foot, and I think leadership, and that could be owner operators or marketing, CMOs, directors, that kind of thing. They fear getting it wrong more than they value getting it right. So safe decisions feel easier to justify than something that’s quite out of the box. So what you get, instead of genuine movement of the needle from this risk averse mindset is you get these incremental improvements. You get cosmetic changes, maybe, maybe a brand refresh from time to time, which is important, really important, but no meaningful differentiation. Christian Klepp  05:55 Absolutely, absolutely and based on that, like just moving on to the next question, what are some of these key pitfalls that you think marketing teams should avoid, and what should they be doing instead? Pete Fairburn  06:06 Yeah, I think one of the key things, and we see this a lot, is mistaking activity for progress, so doing more more campaigns, more channels, more content, more output, without changing the underlying offer. So there’s nothing wrong with doing all those things we know, particularly for organic search. I saw a post earlier today where you know cadence of content updates and releasing of information is as it always has been, something that search rewards, and I include both organic and LLM (Large Language Model) search in that, but if you’re just doing more of that without changing the underlying positioning, the underlying offer of your product or service, you’re not actually doing anything that’s meaningful. So I think that’s a pitfall over investing in the website as a surface layer. So that kind of comes into this. Again, it’s activity design tweaks, debating over platform instead of asking what actually makes us different from a competitor. So that leads into the other pitfall, I think, is skipping the thinking phase. And what I mean by that is the deep thinking, so having a very light hypothesis and jumping straight into a build or marketing without actually validating whether the idea is w

How Rethinking Paid Media Can Drive More Efficient, Sustainable B2B Growth In this competitive environment, the fundamentals of effective B2B marketing are more crucial than ever, yet many brands are losing sight of them. As platforms become more inundated with noise, organizations are increasingly over-investing in paid media while under-investing in the strategic groundwork that makes paid campaigns perform. This imbalance leads to wasted spend, mixed messages, and weaker results, just as B2B audiences are becoming more selective. So, how can marketing leaders leverage paid media to drive more efficient, sustainable B2B growth? That’s why we’re talking to Andrea Ness (Head of Media, ddm marketing + communications), who shares her expertise on how rethinking paid media can drive more efficient, sustainable B2B growth. During our conversation, Andrea emphasized the importance of integrating paid media with owned and earned media to creative a holistic customer journey. She stressed that B2B paid media should amplify strong messaging rather than being the sole focus of a marketing campaign. With sales cycles often lasting 6-18 months, Andrea highlighted the need for consistent messaging across all channels and the importance of building long-term trust. She also underscored the significance of long-lasting assets such as website and thought leadership for sustainable ROI. Andrea advocated for a strategic approach to measurement, leveraging full-funnel metrics that go beyond immediate conversions to capture the true impact of a brand’s digital presence. https://youtu.be/HdpEGsfjxuI Topics discussed in episode: [00:00] Why a weak narrative just means broadcasting confusion at scale  [02:44] Why teams skip to conversions and why it backfires in 6–18 month buying cycles  [05:45] The problem found when sales, PR, web, and leadership aren’t saying the same thing  [09:19] How B2B buyer behavior has changed, and why sales calls are the last resort  [13:24] How to reframe brand investment in language leadership buys into  [17:09] The three paid media pitfalls every B2B marketer must avoid [21:59] Why foundational messaging lifts every channel, and how to evolve it  [24:59] Demystifying owned, earned, and paid media [32:11] Long-lasting assets vs. short-term ads: SEO, thought leadership, and repurposed content that compound  [34:48] Brand lift studies, return visitors, time on site, and the metrics that prove full-funnel progress  [37:56] Why you must build the house before you turn on the amplifier Companies and links mentioned: Andrea Ness on LinkedIn  ddm marketing + communications   Transcript Andrea Ness, Christian Klepp Andrea Ness  00:00 People usually don’t convert on the first ad exposure that they see. So you really, really do want to make sure that there are so many other ways that they can get to that information. Advertising helps. But you know, like, like, if you look at you know what your journey is. And really, it’s a great exercise if you don’t have a customer journey, like, laid out on paper and really, and looking at that, not just for paid media channels, but also, you know, like, here’s what we’re doing, foundational like that owned media, you know. And then here’s what you know earned media is doing that they’re really pushing out. And here’s their focus. Christian Klepp  00:31 The fundamentals of effective B2B Marketing have not changed, but in 2026 many brands are losing sight of them as platforms become more crowded and ad costs continue to rise, organizations are increasingly over investing in paid media while under investing in the strategic groundwork that makes paid campaigns perform. This imbalance leads to wasted spend mixed messages and weaker results, just as audiences are becoming more selective. So how can B2B Marketers leverage paid media to drive more efficient, sustainable growth? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Andrea Ness, who will be answering this question. She’s the head of media at DDM Marketing and Communications, where she helps drive digital marketing initiatives for B2B organizations, tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is. Andrea Ness, welcome to the show. Andrea Ness  01:29 Very good to be here. Christian Klepp  01:30 Really good to have you on. I mean, you know, we’ve, we’ve had such a great free interview conversation where we, we laughed so much about all these random topics, and that was already, like, very telling of, like, what’s to come. But I’m, I’m really looking forward to this conversation. It’s, it’s a very pertinent one. I think it’s something that B2B marketing teams really need to be paying attention to as they move forward. At the time of this recording, at the beginning of 2026 All right, so let’s, let’s jump right in and start the interview. So, Andrea, like for you’re on a mission, I would say, to help B2B companies deliver high impact marketing campaigns that drive measurable results. For this conversation, I’d like to zero in on the topic of how rethinking the role of paid media can drive more efficient, sustainable growth. So I’d like to kick off the conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them, right? So question number one, why do you think paid media should function as an extension of brand trust, rather than the centerpiece of a marketing strategy? And the follow up question is, where do you see many B2B Marketing Teams struggle. Andrea Ness  02:44 All right, I will start with round one, but with the first one, usually, when someone hears media campaign, they go straight to, like the media teams and like going to tactics where, like, where we really want to back up and just say, you know, paid media works as it to amplify the message that you’re trying to put out there, not to create the message. So if you don’t have that, those strong messaging and those components in place, or what we like to say at your house in order, you know, like we’re not going to be the best at creating the message, but only taking really resonating messaging and putting it out to the world. So it we call paid media more like a distribution engine. And it’s not the message itself, you know, and it’s also, you know, to really, really underline brand narrative is, if their your brand narrative isn’t strong, your paid media just amplifies people to get confused. One of the things that we like to talk about with clients is that audiences see 1000s of messages every day, you know. So like, even if we might be in the right channels, you know, with everyone else, if it doesn’t resonate, if it doesn’t align, you know, if it doesn’t connect and strong, then they’re just trying to pass it by with hundreds and 1000s of others. So really, really, what is that message component? What are you trying to tell them? When are you trying to tell them that? And then we just use paid media, the tactics for paid media, just to make sure that we’re amplifying that message to the right people. So that’s with your first question, what your second one was, Christian Klepp  04:14 Where do you see a lot of based on based on that, like, where do you see a lot of B2B marketing teams struggle? Andrea Ness  04:20 So one of the things we keep on we keep on hearing over and over again, because again, you know, I know clients like, really like, their focus on revenue. They’re focused on the end goal. But you know, when we hear a lot of times, when we hear like we need, you know, consistently, more leads, more conversions, more revenue. We got to go straight to the end when what we’re thinking about like, and what we have to bring clients back to is like, what is that customer journey? And, you know, like for us to be able to move them through the funnel, we can’t just go straight to the end and asking them to do something when they don’t even have that trust, or they’re not even, you know, in the consideration journey yet. You know, so with with B2B, especially like consumers, sometimes it’s a quicker side cycle. But with B2B, you know that your cycles are could be like six to 18 months, even longer. So if you’re not talking to them throughout each of the journey and building that trust along the way, you know we’re going to be losing them if you go straight to like, you know, do this and, you know, give us your contact information. We learned, especially now, especially with new generations of people. They don’t like always. Like filling out forms. They like to do their own research in many different ways. And if you’re not there in each of those moments as they’re like, going through and building that trust, wherever they’re going to get those information points, you know, just going out and saying, like, do this now. Deadline approaching, you know, like you’re gonna they’re not going to be ready to do the end the end goal. So, Christian Klepp  05:43 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, Andrea Ness  05:45 Another thing that we notice is more like the fragmented, like the messaging so, and it’s just, you know, we that’s why we really, really hone in on integrated marketing. Because it really is, if we’re ready, if we have our key messages in place. It’s not just what the ads should say. It’s in every form of their communications. And sometimes people don’t think that way, because businesses are in their different teams. They have their sales team, they’re their PR team and communications team, you know, they have, you know, their web team. They have, you know, like all these other teams. But when, when we are ready to say these are going to be our key messages we’re going to hit out there. We have to make sure that all of these teams are aligned and the messaging resonates. So

How to Leverage Brand Differentiation for Massive B2B Growth In the increasingly competitive and saturated world of B2B SaaS and tech, clear brand differentiation and strategic positioning are the most overlooked levers for sustainable growth. While often dismissed, these are critical components in helping companies directly shorten sales cycles and lower their customer acquisition costs (CAC). When done the right way, they can transform everything from strategic alignment across teams to campaign effectiveness and sales velocity. So how can B2B marketing teams develop clear brand differentiation strategy that drives measurable revenue? That’s why we’re talking to Chantelle Little (Founder and CEO, Tiller Digital), who shares her expertise on how to leverage brand differentiation for massive B2B growth. During our conversation, Chantelle discussed why clear brand differentiation and positioning are underrated growth levers for SaaS and tech companies, especially regarding shorten sales cycles and lowering CAC. She also highlighted the importance of strategic alignment and effective positioning, particularly in the face of increasing competition and the market’s maturity. Chantelle discussed why understanding customer pain points is crucial, and how to leverage AI for audience insights. She provided advice on conducting competitor analyses, gathering customer feedback, and leveraging metrics like unaided recall and CAC to quantify brand performance. Chantelle also underscored the necessity of aligning product marketing and sales teams for impactful branding and scaling. https://youtu.be/IF4TaI0QAfU Topics discussed in episode: [00:00] Why brand differentiation is a non-negotiable now in the world of SaaS [02:36] Why AI is a double-edged sword: great for starting positioning work, but dangerous if human judgment isn’t layered in [08:40] The pushback founders give (“it’s too early”) and why those that invest early remove friction from fundraising, hiring, and conversion  [11:49] Key pitfalls to avoid regarding brand differentiation (and branding in general) [20:14] How to make brand ROI tangible: work backward from customer lifetime value (CLV), target a specific CAC reduction, and show the revenue math in founder language  [28:34] The 4-step positioning framework:  1) Define your market and competitive alternatives,  2) Gather customer interviews, surveys and competitor audits,  3) Mine for real differentiation beyond table stakes,  4) Operationalize across the website, sales decks and outbound  [39:31] Metrics for proving brand’s impact: unaided recall, branded search growth, direct traffic, CAC trends, conversion rates, sales cycle length, and inbound lead quality Companies and links mentioned: Chantelle Little on LinkedIn  Tiller Digital G2 Transcript Christian Klepp, Chantelle Little Chantelle Little  00:00 One key pitfall I see is just treating brand as a cosmetic exercise, right? So it’s really, especially when people are, you know, not super familiar with brand, not super familiar with marketing. It can be really easy to, you know, associate logo with brand, and it’s, it’s a lot more comprehensive than that. Christian Klepp  00:19 It’s something that tends to get overlooked in the world of B2B SaaS and tech, yet it’s a crucial component in helping companies to shorten sales cycles and lower Customer Acquisition Costs (CAC) I’m talking about clear brand differentiation and positioning. When done the right way, it can transform everything from strategic alignment across teams to campaign effectiveness and sales velocity. So how can B2B Marketing Teams develop clear brand differentiation for growth? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Chantelle Little, who will be answering this question. She’s the founder and CEO of Tiller Digital that helps B2B, SaaS and tech companies scale through strategic customer centric marketing. Tune in to find out more about what the speed to be Marketers Mission is okay, and away we go. Chantelle Little, welcome to the show. Chantelle Little  01:13 Thanks for having me, Christian. I appreciate it. Christian Klepp  01:15 Great to have you on the show. You know, we had such a great pre interview conversation, and I’m really looking forward to this discussion because, man, this is something that’s so important. And I’m not saying this because I also do branding, but it’s just something that I think is really important. I personally feel from my own experience, it’s something that tends to get overlooked a lot, especially in in the world that you operate in, which is in B2B, SaaS and tech, all right, so I’m going to keep the audience in suspense a little while longer, while I go through the first question. Chantelle Little  01:48 Okay, sounds good. Christian Klepp  01:49 So you’re on a mission to help B2B SaaS teams clarify their story, sharpen positioning, and build websites that drive pipeline. And who doesn’t want that? I think is the better question. But for this conversation, I’d like to narrow it down to the topic of how clear brand differentiation and positioning shorten sales cycles and lower CAC. So for those that don’t know what CAC is, it’s Customer Acquisition Cost. So let’s kick off the conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So question number one, why do you believe that brand differentiation is the most underrated growth lever in B2B? And question number two, as a follow up, where do you see many B2B SaaS companies struggle? Chantelle Little  02:36 Yeah, well, maybe I can kick off with the differentiation and positioning pieces. I think one thought that comes to mind is that differentiation from a branding perspective, perspective has always mattered. But the market has changed a lot in in the last decade, but even in the last 18 months, last two years, it has shifted a lot. One of the things that has changed so much is that the SaaS market in particular has matured a lot over the last number of years. And I love to follow all the stats on what’s happening in the market. And if you just consider that, we’re like mid 2020s, and it’s like the SaaS market is roughly 300, 400 billion. And a lot of you know data out there suggesting that that market could double between now and 2030 so in the next four years, kind of thing, we might see that market reach closer to 700 billion. So I share that, because a decade ago, when people were entering the SaaS market, there were fewer that. There was less competition. There were fewer people to actually compete with. By nature, there were fewer buyers as well, because less companies have shifted a lot in terms of their use of SaaS products in operating their businesses, but the market has shifted so it’s more mature, there’s more competition, there’s higher expectations that come with that as well. And then the other thing you know, in addition to saturation in the market, is that the barriers to entry have dramatically lowered, right? So I think last week, I was reading an article about, yet again, another company that has used lovable to launch a you know, product in market within two weeks and generated millions of dollars of revenue. I’m worried about misstating the facts so, but it was like millions of revenue in a short period of time. So when the barriers are lower, the market is saturated, there’s more of a need for differentiation, and I’m really passionate about that, because if we communicate the same story, and if we communicate sameness, we’re never going to win. AI (Artificial Intelligence), obviously lovable is a good example of an AI platform companies are using, but it also has accelerated the ability to create products, but also it is contributing to sameness, like if you put your your competitors into AI and you ask it to spit out positioning for you and your key messaging, it’s a great start, and I’m actually. A huge advocate of using AI for those those steps, but probably talk about that a little bit later in the podcast too. But it’s really critical that human judgment is layered into that that work. Otherwise, you know, brands will be just spit out from AI, and by nature, they will probably become more similar, not more distinct. So those are a couple to answer. Kind of the first question on why I think it’s underrated. I think if companies can really nail that, it really helps with getting traction, and not just, you know, a little bubble of success, but long term traction and long term performance, which is really key. That’s a that’s a big one for brand. So hopefully that that helps, and then I could go into, like, some of the things where I see companies really struggling. I think there’s a few areas I think that a lot of companies, really, if I’m talking early stage for a moment, a lot of companies that I’ve worked with, or I’ve seen, have really struggled to understand the power of getting those foundational brand pieces figured out. So if I use positioning as an example, if you don’t get your positioning correct, all the money invested after that really might, you know, not work in the way that you’re hoping it will work. So it’s kind of going to that foundational layer, and really making sure the foundation is solid, and then building off of that foundation worth saying, hard to get it right. You know, like the first time, you’re constantly iterating on your positioning, not just in the early stage, but as you scale up, you know, I go back to our positioning as a company every year, if not more frequently than that, and you start to tune and experiment and hone it. But I think the core piece is that if you don’t position yourself, you will be positioned by the market, and it may not be in your favor. So being intentional and s

How to Achieve Outsized Outcomes with a Small B2B Marketing Team With the rapid advancement of AI, machine learning, shifting market dynamics, and more competition entering the ecosystem all the time, B2B marketers are confronted with more challenges than ever before. Teams are constantly facing the challenges of tightened budgets and even tighter deadlines. With this in mind, how can small B2B marketing teams achieve more with less and still deliver exceptional outcomes? That’s why we’re talking to Jordan Buning (Principal and Senior Account Executive, ddm marketing + communications), who shares insights and practical strategies on how to achieve outsized outcomes with a small B2B marketing team. During our conversation, Jordan discussed how teams can navigate market uncertainty and how AI has impacted efficiency. He emphasized the importance of revenue and pipeline metrics to demonstrate the financial contribution that marketing makes to the bottom line. Jordan also stressed the need for small B2B marketing teams to optimize campaigns, avoiding pitfalls like chasing immediate results at the expense of long-term success, and maintain continuous alignment with sales. He advocated for a platform approach over fragmented campaigns, regular metrics evaluation, and a focus on precision over volume. https://youtu.be/31Qts7vadLI Topics discussed in episode: [03:15] Why leadership often views marketing as an expendable variable rather than a core driver of the bottom line. [14:36] Jordan explains how to avoid “strategy whiplash” and over-reliance on performance tactics. [21:20] Discover why right-place, right-time messaging is non-negotiable, especially when it comes to appealing to the buying committee. [28:08] Instead of quarterly campaigns, build a core messaging “soundboard” that provides consistency and longevity. [33:36] Jordan walks through a 3-phase (90-day roadmap) approach consisting of diagnosing, activating, and doubling down to show ROI within one business quarter. [37:14] Why you must lead with pipeline contribution and opportunity creation rate when presenting to the board. [41:32] Why marketing belongs in every part of the organization, from customer experience and billing to employee engagement, not just lead generation. Companies and links mentioned: Jordan Buning on LinkedIn  ddm marketing + communications  Transcript Christian Klepp, Jordan Buning Jordan Buning  00:00 I think you know, the things that probably made this conversation happen in the first place are probably the first metrics you got to have. So it’s probably has something to do with revenue, and probably secondly, has to do with how quality they think the pipeline is filled with opportunities. Your initial metrics that would say this is working or not working. Really have to start there. And it may be two or three steps removed from some of the, you know, inside marketing measurements that that might be there, but at the end of the day, that’s what will kind of matter to them. And so what is, you know, the pipeline contribution looking like? What kind of opportunity creation rate is happening, revenue influence, those, those kinds of things, I think are components that that matter when we talk about revenue and pipeline is, are we actually contributing to the financial success of the organization. Christian Klepp  00:57 With the rapid advancement of AI (Artificial Intelligence) machine learning, changing market dynamics, market uncertainty and more competition entering the ecosystem all the time. B2B Marketers are confronted with more challenges than ever before. Another one of those challenges includes tightened budgets and even tighter deadlines. With this in mind, how can B2B Marketing teams achieve more with less and still deliver exceptional outcomes. Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Jordan Buning, who will be answering this question. He’s the principal and Senior Account Executive at DDM Marketing and Communications who’s committed to doing great things with incredible people inside and outside the company. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is. Okay? Mr. Jordan Buning, welcome to the show, sir. Jordan Buning  01:48 Thank you. Appreciate you having me. Christian Klepp  01:50 Really looking for this conversation, Jordan. Not like man, I should have recorded the last couple of conversations that we had that, in itself, should have been the episode already, right? But I’m, I’m really looking forward to this conversation. You know, I had a great chat with your colleague, Joanne. And you know, we’re going to talk about a topic today that you and I both know it. It keeps coming up, and you ask 50 people out there, and they’ll give you 50 different answers to this question, right? So let’s, let’s just dive right in. I’m going to say you’re on a mission to help B2B companies deliver high impact marketing campaigns that drive measurable results. But I’d like to focus on this following topic for today’s conversation, and we’ve got plenty to unpack from this one, how small marketing teams can optimize campaigns to reduce waste and achieve outsized outcomes, probably I should highlight bold italic, underline that outsized outcomes, because that one’s going to be the interesting one. Let’s kick off the conversation with the following question, so I’m happy to repeat so why do you think many B2B organizations are spending less on their marketing efforts and shortening the timelines in which teams need to deliver results? And based on those constraints in your experience, where have you seen many marketing teams struggle? Jordan Buning  03:15 But you’re right. There’s a there’s a lot there, and trying to consolidate all of my thoughts down is a unique challenge. But, you know, I think part of it is not that marketing is losing importance sometimes in various circumstances, be it budgetary otherwise, but it’s more about the pressure of reshaping how it gets evaluated. There is a lag, I think in terms of how a lot of individuals perceive the importance in the in the contribution that marketing makes to the organization’s goals and ultimately to its bottom line. So if it’s disconnected, it becomes a variable, and a variable that, while maybe nobody is really wishing for, it sometimes becomes minimized or expendable, and therefore it’s really kind of a big push. And there’s certainly a variety of things that may be driving that. It could be their own, economic uncertainties, their market has changed. Therefore they’re making their adjustments. They’re managing risk. When they’re doing some of those kinds of things they may not necessarily see again that relationship between what they’re attributing to the bottom line. They may have measurements that are not aligned to show performance and not that it isn’t but they don’t have the data that’s that’s doing that and or they may even have a lag. They may have a lot of information, but it’s historical data, and present realities may be slightly different, and they don’t really have a way to connect to it. And then you’ve got a lot of other circumstances, like shift towards more immediate revenue. They may be saying, well, let’s just push out, let’s, let’s push more on. The sales side of this. Let’s work with partners, and let’s have them facilitate the process, and we’re going to get out of the sales and marketing role. Maybe what they say is, we’re going to park acquisition and we’re going to really go after account expansion. So those, those are all things that could be driving all of this. Then you throw in things like AI, where they might say, you know, it looks like there’s a lot of great tools out there. Why don’t we use more of those? Let’s use that to fill the gap where we maybe don’t have the resources that we once had. So those all become drivers in the whole situation. And somewhere in between is reality. One other thing, maybe, you know, a lot of organizations, depending on where they are, probably got where they were without maybe marketing being one of the primary drivers. Maybe they had a great engineering solution. They’re a great production organization, and maybe even a great selling organization. But marketing hasn’t been something that has necessarily been invested in as great they got there in their minds through other things. And so there’s suddenly a shift in terms of how to reconcile the value that marketing is contributing to the whole thing. And so it’s both an opportunity and a challenge. Obviously, in the moment, it’s it’s difficult and it’s painful. But those are, those are some of the circumstances that are kind of going on then based on constraints, where do we think marketing teams struggle? I had to remind myself of the question, so I wrote it down. If I were to zoom zoom out, I think the core struggle is, is somewhat capability and capacity. But it’s really kind of more the issue of time horizon that they might be running into, depending on what the issues are that are getting brought up. There could be a bit of a strategy whiplash where, you know, they had a plan, and the best laid plan has gone to waste, and there’s suddenly kind of a push towards a very different effort. And so the investment now is getting either tabled or stalled and and suddenly they’re they’re wanting to switch horses and go to a different direction. And obviously, from a marketing standpoint, that fear is great. We’ve got lots of activity. We’re doing a bunch of other things. We feel good about that. The other side of it is there’s a cost to losing that momentum of where you were going before. And how do you how do you kind of reconcile that? And then, how do you avoid continuing to have strat

Why Authority Now Matters More Than Visibility in B2B Content With AI making it easier than ever to create content, B2B buyers are drowning in a sea of digital noise. To rise about the generic, “AI-slop”, the new differentiator is no longer only visibility, but the ability to convey authentic brand authority. More often than not, it is the perceived credibility and depth of a brand’s messaging that decides whether B2B companies are shortlisted or ignored by well-informed decision makers. So how can B2B companies build a solid thought leadership strategy that creates trust and sets them apart from competitors? That’s why we’re talking to Jamie Thomson (Copywriter and Founder, Brand New Copy), who shares his expertise and insights on why authority now matters more than visibility in B2B content. During our conversation, Jamie emphasized that true authority is built through consistent communication and unique insights rather than controversial stances. He criticized the over-reliance on AI for content ideation and encouraged businesses to focus on their unique selling points and authentic company culture. Jamie stressed the need for documented brand positioning and strategic messaging to build credibility across all channels. He also underscored the value of thought leadership and social proof in signalling authority, and suggested that businesses should invest in understanding and documenting their positioning for success in the long run. https://youtu.be/k4H-0M5ZL7g Topics discussed in episode: [02:47] The end of easy visibility: Why AI overviews and shifting algorithms mean you can no longer control traffic through traditional SEO alone. [07:09] Redefining authority: Authority isn’t about being controversial or loud; it is built through the consistency of your message and brand voice. [13:31] Chasing the right metrics: Why “visibility for visibility’s sake” is a vanity metric, and how to tie your content strategy to actual business outcomes.  [19:39] The credibility anchor: How being consistent with your own unique data and statistics keeps your brand from becoming an “average” forgettable competitor.  [21:42] Messaging for committees: A simple 3-step formula to establish messaging that resonates with human decision-makers, even in complex B2B environments. [27:35] Signaling authority: Practical ways to use “social proof” and unique data to back up your claims in proposals and on your website.  [31:18] Future-proofing your brand: Why documenting your positioning today is the only way to maintain longevity over the next decade. Companies and links mentioned: Jamie Thomson on LinkedIn  Brand New Copy  Copywriting Course at Brand New Copy Transcript Jamie Thomson, Christian Klepp Jamie Thomson  00:00 You know, maybe it’s a personality thing, but like, I’m not particularly controversial in my marketing and I do think people take that stance, like we are the young upstarts, or we are going to make a point of disagreeing with this company so that we can get engagement, whether they believe what their sort of stance are taking or not. It’s, it’s almost that sort of strategy of, there’s no such thing as bad press, and it’s probably effective short term and that’s why people are doing it. But if you’re looking to build a sort of a future proof business, comes back to that idea of authority being a bit consistency, unless your whole strategy is to be controversial, it’s more of a short term gain tactic. I think strategy is even a strong word. I think it’s a tactic. Christian Klepp  00:48 With AI making it easier than ever to create content, B2B, buyers are drowning in a sea of digital noise. To rise above this noise, the new differentiator needs to be delivered through authority. More often than not, it’s the credibility of a brand’s messaging that decides whether they’re shortlisted or ignored. So how can B2B companies leverage this and build their credibility? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Jamie Thomson, who will be answering this question. He’s an award winning copywriter and founder of Brand New Copy who puts strategy at the center of the process to define what the copy should achieve. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is. Okay, and off we go. Mr. Jamie Thomson, welcome to the show, sir. Jamie Thomson  01:34 Hi, Christian. It’s good to speak to you again. Thanks for having me on. Christian Klepp  01:38 Great to have you here. I mean, we had such a dynamite conversation. Like, a few weeks ago, I should have, like, hit record on that conversation too, right? Like, yeah, absolutely, Jamie, I’m really looking forward to this conversation because, you know, one of the things that you’re going to talk about today is, like, near and dear to me as somebody that also dabbles in the world of copywriting for B2B, but um, so here we go, right? So Jamie, you’re on a mission. I’m going to say, to help B2B companies to define their messaging, strengthen their positioning and communicate with authority across every channel. So this is really serious stuff here. Okay, so for this conversation, I’d like to focus on the topic of why authority now matters more than visibility and B2B, right? So I’d like to kick off the conversation with two questions, right? And I’m happy to repeat them. First question is, why do you believe authority is important, especially in an age where AI is creeping into B2B content and everything else. And where do you see a lot of B2B brands falling flat with the authority piece? Jamie Thomson  02:47 Yeah, so I think, I think authority is more important now than ever has been because, like you said, because there’s a lot of like, LLMs (Large Language Models) now kind of doing a lot of the marketing work that was maybe, you know, handled by humans before. I think that you know, sort of the sort of background context to this is that, you know, as Marketers, we don’t have as much control over the visibility of our content as we used to like Google, for example. You now have AI (Artificial Intelligence) overviews. So even if you get to like position one in Google, you’re still at the bottom of the page. Because you’ve got your AI overviews, you have sponsored results, and then there’s the organic listings underneath. And even if you’re position one, you’re still at the bottom of the page earlier. As a result, website traffic has reduced, and people aren’t getting the same kind of like traffic numbers that they used to on LinkedIn as well, like the way that the algorithms are sort of working nowadays. There doesn’t really seem to be any regular reason as to which posts perform well, it seems to be the sort of casual, off the cuff posts that seem to seem to get a lot of attention. There is a genuinely useful, you know, thought leadership stuff has kind of been pushed to the back burner a little bit. So I think authority is important because we don’t have as much control over visibility as we used to, and I think it’s the genuinely useful content that is the stuff that’s going to get shared, whether or not the algorithms are going to push that. So if you have produced a piece of content that has, like, really unique data points that is genuinely useful to other businesses, and it’s get shared online. It’s going to get shared internally between companies, and it’ll get linked to as well. And again, like to answer your second question, and where do a lot of sort of B2B brands like sort of miss the mark? I think. I think the main thing is that they’re the content that they’re producing isn’t genuinely useful. They are a lot of brands across industries that are kind of seeing the same thing as their competitors. And I don’t know for sure, but I have a sort of inclination that is down to LLMs, because they’re kind of relying on like chatGPT for their ideas. They’re asking chatGPT to give them ideas for content. And, you know, chatGPT, it can give you the output, but it can’t give you the input. You know, it’s a technology of averages. So if you’re looking to LLMs for ideation, it’s going to give you the average of what everyone else in industry is saying. So it’s important that your businesses are really doubling down on their ideation and things that make them unique as a company, like their unique selling points, their value propositions, their company culture. You know, the people behind the business, that’s kind of what makes a company’s culture and chatGPT, llms, they don’t really have any first hand experience of that, and it’s such a nuanced thing that you’re never going to get like effective results if you’re asking LLMs for the ideas in the first place. If you’re using it for execution, to help guide style and tone a little bit, then that’s fair enough. But, yeah, it’s important that brands are sort of really doubling down on the ideation. You know, that’s that, I think, just genuine, unique insights that people are actually going to be interested in reading. Christian Klepp  06:38 Absolutely, I had a couple of follow up questions for you there. I mean, this is great stuff. This might sound like overly, like simplified. I mean, for lack of a better description, but like, just, let’s clear the air here a little bit. Define, from your experience and your own interpretation, define authority, because that also gets thrown around very loosely, I feel almost as, almost as much as the term you’ve got to add value. I mean, like, you know, what does that actually mean, right? Jamie Thomson  07:09 Yeah, yeah. So to me, authority is about a brand communicating their messages in a consistent way, whether that is the actual content of the messages or the way that they actually communicate it, in terms o

How to Fix Your Underperforming B2B SaaS Funnel for Quick Revenue Wins In the fast-paced world of B2B SaaS, the ability to go to market, iterate on feedback, and close deals rapidly is the ultimate competitive advantage. Unfortunately, many sales and marketing teams find themselves stalled by underperforming funnels that drain resources without delivering measurable results. When growth plateaus, the challenge lies in transforming these stagnant pipelines into high-velocity growth engines without requiring massive capital or long timelines. So, how can B2B SaaS teams identify the hidden leaks in their customer journey and unlock quick-win revenue through a strategic, data-driven approach? That’s why we’re talking to April Syed (CEO of Aperture Codex), who shares her expertise on fixing an underperforming B2B SaaS funnel for quick revenue wins. During our conversation, April discussed the importance of leveraging data to pinpoint “quick wins,” such as streamlining sales processes and eliminating high-friction points in user onboarding. She explained how to fix “conversion killers” like messaging misalignment and highlighted the necessity of aligning marketing and sales efforts to ensure a seamless experience. April also advocated for a culture of continuous testing, using small, incremental experiments to de-risk major strategic shifts. She emphasized the value of regular customer journey mapping to maintain a predictable, sustainable, and highly efficient path to profitable growth. https://youtu.be/VeeFMznhCfw Topics discussed in episode: [07:24] Why your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) must be a “living, breathing” document reviewed quarterly, not a static file sitting in a deck. [11:24] The critical mistake of treating marketing as a cost center rather than a revenue driver, and how it leads to “vanity metrics” over actual sales. [13:53] Why you should focus on small, incremental tests to “de-risk” big spends before committing to expensive strategies like rebrands. [18:05] The 5-Point Conversion Diagnostic: A framework to analyze time-to-value, messaging alignment, behavioral triggers, follow-up timing, and pricing friction. [23:07] A real-world example of how “pricing friction” (forcing an annual upgrade) caused a loyal promoter to churn to a competitor. [27:24] How to audit your funnel for “Quick Win” revenue opportunities in under 30 days by analyzing where deals stall in the CRM. [35:27] Why no marketing asset is ever “final”, and why high-traffic landing pages should be in a state of constant A/B testing. Companies and links mentioned: Apryl Syed on LinkedIn  Aperture Codex  Superhuman Notion  Motion Transcript Christian Klepp, Apryl Syed Apryl Syed  00:00 Brand for instance, doesn’t work itself into any metric, but it makes every metric better across the board. Sometimes we’re chasing these metrics and like the attribution of where a particular deal came from, or how did they find out about us, and we’re not thinking about all of the things that are outside in the flywheel that are, you know, causing that person to, yes, eventually convert. But were there seven or eight other things that kind of they interacted with. Christian Klepp  00:26 In the world of B2B SaaS speed is the name of the game. Get to market, quickly collect feedback, quickly iterate quickly and close deals quickly. But what happens if your sales and marketing teams get stuck with underperforming funnels that don’t generate the results you need? How can teams turn these funnels into growth machines without massive spend or long timelines? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking with Apryl Syed, who will be answering this question. She’s the CEO of ApertureCodex who gives founders the strategy and the psychology needed to jump into fast revenue gains. Let’s dive in. Okay, and away we go. Apryl Syed, welcome to the show. Apryl Syed  01:12 Thank you so much, Christian. I’m so excited to be here. Christian Klepp  01:15 Glad to have you on the show. I think we had such a great pre interview conversation. I kept telling myself I should have hit record, and I talked to you the first time, right? But, you know, two times is a charm or three times. But anyways, this is the second time we’re talking. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation Apryl, because we’re going to touch on a topic today that I think is not just relevant to sales teams. It’s really important to marketing teams as well. So I’m going to keep the audience in suspense just a little while longer while I set up this first question. Right? So you’re on a mission to help B2B SaaS teams turn underperforming funnels into growth machines without massive spend or lengthy timelines, and for people that didn’t hear that the first time, I think everybody wants something like that, right, quick results without spending massively, right? So for this conversation, I’d like to focus on the following topic and just unpack it from there, right? So how can SaaS teams leverage a quick win revenue approach for better and more predictable growth. And I mean, come on Apryl, who the heck doesn’t want that, right? Who doesn’t want predictable growth, right? So I want to kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So first one is, where do you see many SaaS teams struggle with revenue growth? And the second question is, what are some of the key causes of this? Apryl Syed  02:44 It’s really great, by the way. As a side note, I got turned down for a podcast this week because they said I talked too much about quick wins, and they felt that it conflicted with their policy. I won’t mention the name, they’re an agency out there, but they were all about big spend, and they felt that I conflicted with that. And this exactly ties in. This is probably why the subject that I talk about so. Christian Klepp  03:13 Well, I’m sorry for them. Apryl Syed  03:15 Yeah, that’s okay. That’s okay. We don’t, we don’t match. You know, I’m not for everyone. Well, I think that, like SaaS teams don’t realize that they’ve got data. And within their data really, really lies some of the tweaks, opportunities and things like that that can make them extra revenue that they might not be looking at today. And I think, you know, perhaps it’s in tweaking their sales process. Maybe they don’t have a sales process misalignment between sales and marketing. Marketing is talking about one thing, sales is selling another thing, or could be marketing is marketing to one type of industry and user, and sales is saying that’s not the right user. It’s something completely different, that misalignment in itself causes revenue conflict, revenue opportunities. And you know, sometimes it’s spending on expensive tools before you’ve actually broken down some of those points in the funnel. Or could be tools that you’re getting a lot of data from, or they’re not doing anything with the data on a regular basis. So I think, you know, those are where I see some of those, like, struggle with revenue because of some of those issues and and then I think your second question was kind of like, well, how to, how do they kind of avoid some of those scenarios? Right? Christian Klepp  04:40 It was more about the the key causes, but you but, but you did talk about that already, right?   Apryl Syed  04:44 So, right, right? That definitely is there. Well, I think, you know, it’s also could be, you know, where they’re chasing certain metrics and focused in, and we had this conversation earlier. It’s like brand, for instance, doesn’t work at. Yourself into any metric, but it makes every metric better across the board. So sometimes we’re chasing these metrics and like the attribution of where a particular deal came from, or how did they find out about us, and we’re not thinking about all of the things that are outside in the flywheel that are, you know, causing that person to, yes, eventually convert. But were there seven or eight other things that kind of they interacted with before they got to that point? And we had to get them ready? So, you know, can definitely be about just chasing those metrics too much, which means you avoid doing things that don’t give you that instant metric. And I think that is a big challenge and pitfall that that teams can can certainly fall into. I think also the the challenge of treating marketing as a cost center and not letting them be in charge of all of those metrics down to the sale that happen. And that might sound weird to some folks, but I’ve certainly been in enough teams and enough experiences across you know my background that I’ve seen that sometimes you can make a change in marketing. It produces a lot of leads, but those leads aren’t qualifying and they’re not turning into revenue, and yet, if the metric is producing leads, well then marketing can walk away the end of the day and meet their metrics and jobs, but if the metric is revenue, then they’ve got to go all the way to that end cycle and see that it’s a qualified opportunity. That, of course, goes back to my original point that if sales and marketing aren’t in lock sync with each other, and they don’t have a good relationship and dynamic, then it ends up in finger pointing when things aren’t going wrong, instead of both teams coming together, being on the same page and figuring out what’s going to work. And that’s that’s really the key. Christian Klepp  07:03 Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you might have brought it up, and maybe I didn’t catch it, and if not, I apologize. But like, one of the things that I didn’t notice, too, is, like, this misalignment of who, who the who the ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) is, like the assumptions th

How AI Agents are Disrupting the AdTech Landscape Semantic content classification driven by AI agents is currently transforming digital advertising and B2B content monetization as we know it. When leveraged the right way, marketers can classify B2B content into actionable signals and find the most relevant content across the open web. This shift toward AI-native advertising allows for a more sophisticated approach to targeting that moves beyond traditional cookies. So, how can brands strategically implement these tools to generate impactful results, and what does the rise of autonomous agents mean for the future of your digital marketing strategy? That’s why we’re talking to Brendan Norman (Co-Founder and CEO, Classify), who shares his expertise and experience on how AI agents are disrupting the AdTech landscape. During our conversation, Brendan discussed the evolution of digital advertising and the critical integration of AI and cloud-based tools to automate manual tasks and improve campaign optimization. He also elaborated on the massive shift from human-centric to agent-centric traffic, predicting that agent traffic will surpass human traffic within 18-24 months. Brendan also explained why he believes that the future belongs to marketers who can blend audience and contextual signals to monetize human and agent attention. He highlighted how new AI-native tools are democratizing advanced ad tech, significantly reducing costs and improving efficiency for large and small advertisers. https://youtu.be/yVobWZTmwco Topics discussed in episode: [03:01] Beyond Keywords: How semantic understanding allows advertisers to target the nuance of a page (like “snow removal” vs. just “winter”) rather than broad categories.  [06:46] Optimizing for AI Agents: Why “Generative Engine Optimization” (GEO) complements traditional SEO, and how brands must prepare for agents retrieving information instead of humans.  [12:34] The Shift in Web Traffic: The prediction that agent traffic will surpass human traffic on the web in the next 6 to 24 months.  [15:50] The Power of Context + Audience: Why the best advertising strategy combines who the user is (audience) with what they are consuming in the moment (context).  [20:47] Democratizing Ad Tech: How AI agents and new frameworks will allow smaller brands with smaller budgets to access sophisticated programmatic advertising tools.  [26:54] High-Fidelity Curation at Scale: How AI reduces the cost of processing massive data sets, making real-time optimization and curation accessible and sustainable.  [33:44] The “Middleman Tax”: A look at the inefficiency of current ad tech where only 35 cents of every dollar reaches the publisher, and how AI can fix this.  Companies and links mentioned: Brendan Norman on LinkedIn  Classify  Bluefish AI Agentic Advertising Org  IAB Tech Lab Transcript Brendan Norman – Classify, Christian Klepp Brendan Norman – Classify  00:00 I think overall, jobs will change. I think that people will have to spend a lot less time doing a lot of the manual, rote tasks that they’re doing today. You know, kind of in parallel with what we’re seeing in terms of vibe coding and people’s ability to build product really quickly, design new web pages really quickly, like get ship things out quickly. I think a lot of the infrastructure layer tools, or just call them like, like, chatGPT style, cloud based tools, LLMs (Large Language Models), we’ll see a lot deeper integration into existing advertising product. And what that does is it helps democratize the whole ecosystem. So I think it frees up people’s time, you know, to not have to do a lot of the basic administrative, you know, reporting, manual, campaign, optimization type stuff, and it will help service a lot better insights. Ultimately, I think the industry grows, and I think it scales even faster and cautiously, optimistically. I think that we, we will have back to building on the curation piece, and, you know, the advertiser, outcomes piece, publisher monetization piece, user experience piece, I think that all those things will increase. Christian Klepp  01:07 When done the right way and leveraging the right approach and technology, you can classify B2B content into actionable insights and find the most similar content across the open web. So how can this be done the right way, and what role do B2B Marketers play? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Brendan Norman about this. He’s the Co-Founder and CEO of Classify, a software that organizes the world’s digital content, making a privacy, safe, searchable and monetizable. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, and off we go. I’m gonna say Mr. Brendan Norman, welcome to the show. Brendan Norman – Classify  01:49 Thanks for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:51 Great to have you on. I’m really looking for this conversation because, man, like you know, in our previous discussion, besides talking about snow and bad weather, we did have, we did have we did have some interesting discussions around, I’m going to say, AI machine learning, and how that all has some kind of like strong correlation to content. So let’s just dive in. I’m going to start with the first question here. So you’re on a mission to help publishers increase monetization potential and advertisers target the most relevant, curated inventory. So for this conversation, I’m going to focus on the following topic, and we can unpack it from there. So how B2B brands can optimize their own content. And you know, let’s be honest. Brendan, who the heck doesn’t want to do that, right? So your company classify, if I remember correctly. It’s a software that organizes the world’s digital content, making it privacy, safe, searchable and monetizable. So here’s the two-pronged question I’m happy to repeat. So first one is, walk us through how your software does that and B, how does this approach benefit? B2B companies looking to optimize their own content? Brendan Norman – Classify  03:01 Historically, how a lot of content gets categorized, classified, organized, it’s fairly unsophisticated, and it’s been fairly unsophisticated for a long time, just because, you know, the technology is difficult to do, and we haven’t really had the foundational ability to understand it in a way like a human understands it until fairly recently, and do it at Deep scale. So good analogy for this question is like, if you were having a we were having a conversation just a minute ago about the snow, you know, happening in Canada, and how cold it was and how much snow you got, and, you know, also around the fact that, like you had to shovel your driveway, you have a snow blower you were putting the snow. There’s a lot of different nuance to that conversation. I as a human, and most humans, are able to interpret all of that nuance and kind of positively negatively, understand that there’s a snow blower involved in that snow blower was used to remove the snow historically that conversation, you know, if it was just a blob of text, or if it were a web page, the the basic technology to understand it would have reduced it down to a category like snow or maybe winter, and that’s it, and that’s all the targeting that would have happened to that page. So our conversation, you know, gets transcribed. It gets put on a blog, or it gets put on a news site. The only thing that a machine could understand about it was, you know, snow and then potentially a keyword, tagged snow blower. And that’s all so we took a very different one. One of the reasons why you know that that makes it challenging for advertisers and also for publishers. If you’re the publisher of that content, you’re not able to help advertisers really understand the nuance to like, what are we talking about here? Because maybe an advertiser wants to sell snow blowers for that specific site. Maybe they’re looking to sell ski and since we were talking about removing snow from a driveway, probably not the best application to go sell skis on. What is helpful is to deeply understand all the nuance to like we were talking about a driveway. We were talking about removing snow from that driveway. So we invented, you know, a much better, more sophisticated way to scrape content, classify it according to all of the different, you know, nuances semantic understanding much more like a human would, and then embed all of those different, you know, semantic understandings into, you know, this, this, this file, and then we organize that in a way that makes it searchable and kind of understands all the relationships very quickly. And what that does is it helps advertisers, like if you know, I’m Honda selling snow blowers, which they make, arguably the best snow blower in the market, if they’re looking to reach people that are talking about snow removal from the driveway, they can very quickly see the list of all the different URLs across the internet, and they can build, you know, a deal ID, or they can build a targeting, contextual targeting segment to specifically pinpoint those very specific web pages. And that’s kind of how the technology works, and then also, also why it’s relevant to advertisers. Christian Klepp  06:21 Thanks so much for sharing that Brendan that definitely helps us give, you know, some perspective into, like, what your software does. And you know, just, I’m asking you this from, from somebody who probably has learned to write one or two lines of code, and that’s as far as my dev skills go. But like, how, how is your software different from like GEO (Generative Engine Optimization), or is there some kind of overlap? Brendan Norman – Classify  06:46 It’s fairly complementary. I mean, the problem that GEO, you

How to Scale Faster with B2B Brand Strategy Here’s a common scenario in B2B marketing: you launch campaigns, hit the deadlines, and fill the pipeline, but the results feel disconnected from your long-term goals. Internal messaging discussions resurface, campaigns feel shallow and reactive, and when you ask people what your brand stands for, you get 50 different answers. This inconsistent approach creates friction and impedes scalable growth. So what can B2B marketers do when their tactical execution is outpacing their brand strategy, and how to do you realign for lasting impact? That’s why we’re talking to JoAnne Gritter (COO, ddm marketing + communications), who shares her expertise and actionable insights on how to scale faster with B2B brand strategy. During our conversation, JoAnne underscored why a foundational strategy is crucial for building credibility and trust in competitive markets. She also discussed the role of AI in marketing, commenting that while it can support with idea generation and research, it shouldn’t replace direct communication with customers and employees. JoAnne shared some common pitfalls such as messaging misalignment and inconsistent branding, which can lead to distrust and reduced credibility, She explained the importance of having a cohesive brand strategy that aligns values, messaging, and customer experiences across all company touchpoints through proactive brand management. https://youtu.be/_Alwkinhw-g Topics discussed in episode: [02:36] The “Soul vs. Body” framework: Why marketing is just the body in action, while brand strategy is the soul that provides direction and values.  [06:51] Red flags that your marketing has outpaced your strategy: When content feels fragmented and sales teams are telling completely different stories.  [08:52] Defining true brand strategy: Moving beyond logos and colors to include deep research, stakeholder analysis, and internal alignment.  [14:41] The critical differences between a brand refresh (auditing existing assets), a complete revamp (starting from scratch), and branding during a merger.  [24:10] Actionable steps you can take to realign your brand: – Audit your customer journey – Define messaging pillars – Ensure HR and onboarding match the brand promise  [29:37] Why “data-only” marketing fails: The importance of human emotion and psychology that performance data often misses.  Companies and links mentioned: JoAnne Gritter on LinkedIn  ddm marketing + communications  Transcript JoAnne Gritter, Christian Klepp JoAnne Gritter  00:00 AI can be used as a tool. It should not replace thinking and actually talking to your customers and your employees and your sales team. So you can use AI as a crutch to to like, ask it for ideas, idea generation. You can use it for deep research on your on your audience, and stuff like that. But nothing replaces the gold standard of talking to people. I see this in messaging misalignment or content misalignment. If content feels like it’s been written by four different people or completely different companies, that’s a red flag. Christian Klepp  00:37 This is a common scenario for B2B Marketers. You launch campaigns, hit the deadlines and fill the pipeline. It all looks great on paper, but something is still off internal messaging discussions resurface. Campaigns feel shallow and reactive, and when you ask people what the brand stands for, you get 50 different answers. So what can B2B Marketers do when their marketing is outpacing their brand strategy? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to JoAnne Gritter, who will be answering this question. She’s a member of the leadership team at DDM Marketing Communications that provides integrated marketing solutions to drive business success. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is and here we go. JoAnne Gritter, welcome to the show. JoAnne Gritter  01:25 Hi Christian. Happy to be here. Christian Klepp  01:27 We you know, we had such a wonderful, like, pre-interview conversation. I almost feel like we’re neighbors or something, and something to that extent. But I’m, I’m really, like, happy to have you on the show, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because this topic is, I’m a little bit biased because I am in the branding space, so it’s a bit near and dear to my heart, but it’s also something that’s extremely important, because you’ll agree. I mean, you, I know you’ll agree because you wrote an article about it. JoAnne Gritter  01:54 Yeah Christian Klepp  01:55 It’s something that marketing teams tend to overlook. And good, goodness gracious me, I’m gonna, like, stop keeping people in suspense. We’ll just jump right in all right. JoAnne Gritter  02:04 Okay Christian Klepp  02:04 So JoAnne, you’re on a mission to provide integrated marketing solutions that drive B2B business success. So for this conversation, let’s focus on this topic, how brand strategy helps B2B organizations to realign for long term growth. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question. In our previous conversation, our previous discussion, you talked about how marketing without a brand is a strategy without a soul. Could you please explain what you meant by that? JoAnne Gritter  02:36 So I just made the comparison kind of to the whole human, as in, like the brand is your soul, meaning like your values, what drives you, why you’re here, what differentiates you, what makes you different than the person standing next to you, whereas, like marketing is your body in action, or action in general, where you hopefully, if you if you’re a trustworthy person, what is, what are your values internally are matching your actions externally? And that is often where we see a divergent in companies, because they don’t think about those as like two sides of the same coin. It is really important that you make sure that you know the direction that you’re going as a company and what you stand for and who you’re there to support or serve, and what markets you’re there to do, and like your whole company, everybody that’s part of interfacing with customers understands that and is and is speaking the same language. Christian Klepp  03:37 Yeah, no, absolutely. And I suppose the the follow up question to that is like, where do you see a lot of, like, marketing teams go wrong. Because, like, you know, more often than not, a lot of teams are like, Okay, we’ve we’ve implemented the campaigns check. We’re generating results and driving pipeline or filling the pipeline, rather check. So where does it all go wrong? JoAnne Gritter  04:00 If you are not paying attention to your branding, you can have a lot of activity without a lot of traction. So or you can have a lot of different messages going out that seem not cohesive or fragmented. And so you can or more examples you can have, like your sales folks going out and telling different stories about about what your company stands for and what you do and how you’re different, that creates a lot of waste, because then you’re continuously trying to get more activity and more campaigns going more sales people out there, because you’re not getting the quality leads that you need, because nobody really knows what you stand for. Everybody says it a little bit differently, and that goes for customer service too. Branding. People think about branding as a marketing problem, or a marketing, you know, teams problem. But if, let’s say part of your brand is your brand identity or values is to put the customer. First, if you don’t really solidify that from your sales team and your customer support team, then there would be a mismatch there, right then you’re just putting out into the world that customers first, but that doesn’t match up with what the customer is experiencing. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yeah, there’s certainly some kind of misalignment there, and you touched on it, like, briefly. It’s interesting to me, like, even in my own experience, one of the telltale signs of that is when you ask people within the organization, well, what makes you different? And you get 50 different answers, and some of them are similar, and some of them are completely, like, different. And it’s like, okay, yep, okay, I see where this is going, or to your to your other point, when sales teams are having those discovery calls, and you listen back to some of those recordings, which I hope you marketing people out there are doing, and you listen to the way that the sales deal with objections, and maybe the procurement team or people like, you know, on the prospect side, they’re probably not phrasing it exactly the way I’m going to say it right now, but like, but they probably are asking something to the effect of, okay, what makes you different from vendor B, C and D, right? What is different about your solution? Like, why are you charging this guy? Why are your rates like, this high. JoAnne Gritter  05:16 Right. Absolutely. And if they have different answers, or if you go and you listen in on four different sales calls and they’re all a little bit different, then that tells you have a branding issue that people don’t fully understand your brand and how you’re different and who you support and serve. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yep, absolutely, absolutely. So you’ve touched on it a little bit, but like, tell us about some more of these. I’m going to call them red flags, right? That signal when marketing has outrun brand strategy. JoAnne Gritter  05:16 Sure, I see this in messaging misalignment or content misalignment. If content feels like it’s been written by four different people or completely different companies, that’s a red flag. If, like we mentioned, your sales te

How to Fix Boring Brand Podcasts If we’re going to be perfectly honest, many branded podcasts are either boring or they sound just like a recycled commercial. To win the hearts and minds of your B2B target audience, you must move beyond generic corporate messaging and create high-quality content that addresses your listeners’ needs. So how can brands produce engaging content that will resonate with their audiences, and what strategic role does B2B storytelling play? That’s why we’re talking to Jen Moss (Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer, JAR Podcast Solutions), who shared her expertise and strategic insights on how to fix boring brand podcasts. During our conversation, Jen discussed the importance of creating engaging brand podcasts that build trust and loyalty. She explained why B2B podcasts should go beyond product promotion and focus on deeper stories and societal issues. Jen also highlighted the need for creative courage, proper planning, rigorous pre-production, and engagement with the audience. She advised against rushing into production without proper ideation and marketing budget. Jen also underscored the power of authentic B2B storytelling and cautioned against relying too heavily on AI for content creation. https://youtu.be/sVlsvotzFEE Topics discussed in episode: [02:22] The definition of a successful brand podcast: It shouldn’t just be a CEO talking about products, but rather a way to facilitate deeper conversations on industry issues.  [05:12] Why brands need “creative courage” to stand out in a saturated market, including experimenting with fiction or narrative formats.  [08:32] How to tell a good B2B story by focusing on “beats,” high stakes, and the transparent struggle rather than just the solution.  [17:28] The top pitfalls in podcasting: Failing to budget for marketing, ignoring audience analytics, and drop-off rates.  [29:25] A real-world example of how Genome BC used human storytelling to make complex scientific topics accessible and engaging.  [37:40] Why using AI purely for speed and volume is a mistake, and why the mission of podcasting should be connection, not efficiency. Companies and links mentioned: Jen Moss on LinkedIn  JAR Podcast Solution  Genome BC Bumper Ira Glass Cory Doctorow Nice Genes! Podcast Another Round Podcast Hot Ones Podcast Transcript Christian Klepp, Jen Moss Jen Moss  00:00 Podcasting, especially audio podcasting, I will say, is a sacred space between the ears. You are literally whispering in people’s ears if they don’t like what they’re hearing, if they start to feel like you’re shilling to them, they will yank out the earbuds and it’s game over for you. Christian Klepp  00:17 If we’re going to be perfectly honest, many brand podcasts are either boring or they just sound like a commercial. To win the hearts and minds of your target audience, you need to create content that serves your listeners and is something they actually want to hear. So how can you achieve that? And what role does B2B Marketing play in producing successful brand podcasts? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Jen Moss, who will be answering that question. She is the Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer of JAR Podcast Solutions, which helps create quality podcasts that earn trust. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, okay, and I’m gonna say, Jen Moss, welcome to the show. Jen Moss  01:05 Thank you so much for having me. Christian Klepp  01:07 Great to have you on. We’ve had such a fantastic conversation before. I hit record. I probably should have recorded this earlier, but in any case, Jen Moss  01:14 Yes, if anyone needs any parenting tips, we got your back. Christian Klepp  01:18 Absolutely, absolutely that that book is coming out soon on Amazon. I’m just kidding, But Jen, really looking forward to this conversation, because, man, we are going to cover a topic which, you know, might rock the boat a little bit, but it’s all, you know, constructive, and you know, it’s all for the sake of growing in a positive way, right? Jen Moss  01:35 I think so, Christian Klepp  01:36 At least I like to think so. Jen Moss  01:38 That is the goal. Christian Klepp  01:39 Absolutely, absolutely, all right, so here it comes. So Jen, you’re on a mission to help brands craft story first, podcasts that earn trust, build loyalty and connect deeply with the audiences that matter most. So for today’s conversation, I’d like to zero in on the following topic. Here comes how to fix boring brand podcasts. I know we’ve got a ton to talk about, but let’s kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So what is it about brand podcasting that you wish more people understood? And number two is, where do most brand podcasts go wrong. Jen Moss  02:22 Okay, so those are both great questions, so that what is a branded podcast is probably a good place to start. A lot of people might think that it’s, you know, the CEO of a company talking about their products and services ad nauseam. And if you happen to want to buy those products and services, maybe you would listen to it, because you could get more information, like, kind of an informational, almost transactional thing. I think that’s what a lot of people imagine when they hear the words branded podcast. However, that there’s a lot more to branded podcasting than that, and a lot of the smarter sort of, I would say, savvy brands, the ones with kind of sophisticated marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, are looking at podcasting as a way to tell deeper stories, engage with conversations that are ongoing in society that really matter so, sort of a chance for the brand to show its stripes a little bit, and an opportunity to offer something to a target audience that is sort of like a kind of a gift. You know, like we’re going to give you something of value that you actually will benefit from or enjoy, learn something from, be emotionally moved by, you know, hear a good story, and it’ll be in an area that the brand cares about, that that kind of ticks the boxes in terms of, like, what are the brand’s values, but is not specifically, and this is very important, is not specifically related to the brand’s products and services, per se. So it’s more like, okay, the brand maybe exists in a certain wider industry, and there’s an issue in that industry that keeps coming up, or a new technology that’s affecting everything, something like that, something that needs to be talked about. And so they’ll, they’ll set out to kind of facilitate those kinds of conversations through their podcasts. And a branded podcast doesn’t need to be just a one on one interview. It could be, it could be a fiction podcast if you were feeling extra frisky and creative that day, you know, if you wanted to do something fun, like I had a conversation with a solar company not that long ago, and we actually pitched them a fiction podcast about a world powered by sun. And because we thought the opportunity for a solar panel company to sponsor a fiction podcast about a world powered by sun like sci-fi would be, would be exciting and different. Christian Klepp  05:11 How did that go? Jen Moss  05:12 Yeah, well, we didn’t end up getting that job because they didn’t have the creative courage to do it. And so this is, this is the kind of conversation that I’m always on with brands is like, have the creative courage to do something that’s a little out of the ordinary because there’s 500 million podcasts or whatever, so you’ve got to stand out. And so you’ve got to think about how to stand out, and one of the best ways to do that is to do something different that hasn’t been done before. For example, there is a great branded fiction podcast called Murder in HR, and it’s by an online HR platform company. And, you know, like, it’s just a scripted fiction true, true crime. It’s not really true because it’s scripted fiction podcast. But, you know, it’s kind of different and fun. So, so there’s stuff like that. There’s, you know what we would call narrative podcasting, which is a mixture of script and clip, where you’re kind of combining on scene recordings with interview tape, with narration, and kind of thoughtfully braiding all those things together, like an NPR (National Public Radio) storytelling experience or a CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) storytelling experience. So there’s all of that that can be part of branded podcasting, and so I just frankly think it’s kind of lazy when brands just decide that they’re going to talk about themselves indefinitely in a podcast. If I want to learn about a brand, I and buy something from them, I’ll go to their website. But if the brand wants to win hearts and minds and raise awareness and build trust and kind of operate on that deeper level to widen their impact. That’s where a podcast, and sponsoring a podcast, or getting behind the production of a podcast can really help. So that’s, I mean, I guess that kind of answers your second question, where do brands go wrong? And it’s usually with just doing the obvious, doing the thing that they think is the most direct route to a customer. And with podcasting, I try to remind people there is a difference between a customer and an audience. A customer is someone who already, at least wants to know more about your product and is thinking of buying maybe they’ve bought from you before. An audience may include those customers, but it may include other people as well who have a wider array of interests and are not yet, do not yet know that they need to buy a new pair of running shoes, but then the next time they need a new pair of running shoes, they may think of you because of that ex

How to Use AI for B2B Storytelling Without Losing Your Brand So many B2B companies and marketing teams waste budget on generic content that fails to resonate or support core business goals. In an era where AI-generated is everywhere, smaller B2B brands often struggle to maintain a unique identity while competing against larger firms with massive content engines. The key to staying relevant lies in a B2B brand’s ability to be authentic, human-centric, and strategically consistent despite the pressure to automate everything. So how can B2B brands effectively integrate AI into their marketing workflows without losing their unique voice and brand integrity? That’s why we’re talking to Nick Usborne (Founder, Story Aligned), who shared his expertise on leveraging AI through the lens of strategic storytelling. During our conversation, Nick discussed the critical distinction between simple narrative and a brand’s unique story, highlighting a significant gap where only 7% of top AI prompt libraries actually focus on storytelling. He shared actionable advice on building a “story vault,” training staff to avoid “brand drift,” and enforcing consistent AI usage to maintain the trust of the audience. Nick also underscored the importance of keeping human elements at the forefront of content creation to prevent AI from feeling overly mechanical, and advocated for a balanced approach that ensures scalable growth without sacrificing a brand’s authenticity. https://youtu.be/dtgvg2-XXoU Topics discussed in episode: [02:53] The “Why” Behind AI Adoption: Why companies must embrace AI not just for efficiency, but to avoid being left behind by competitors who are already scaling their reach.  [04:10] The “Moat” of Storytelling: Why narrative and voice can be easily copied by AI, but your brand’s unique “lived story” is the only defensible moat you have.  [11:27] Pitfalls of Inconsistent AI Use: The dangers of “shadow AI” use by employees (e.g., Using personal accounts vs. company custom GPTs) and how it leads to brand drift.  [16:46] The Human Element vs. AI: Nick explains why AI can describe the beach but can’t “feel the sand between its toes,” and why human “messiness” is key to connection.  [24:26] Building a Story Vault: Nick provides a practical framework for formalizing your brand’s folklore—from founder stories to customer service wins—so they can be systematically used in AI content.  [28:17] Actionable Steps for Marketers: Three immediate steps to take: build your story vault, interview key stakeholders (founders, early employees), and analyze customer service transcripts for sentiment.  [30:11] The Problem with “Killer Prompt” Libraries: Why copying “top 20 prompt” lists is a strategic mistake that leads to generic, non-differentiated content. Companies and links mentioned: Nick Usborne on LinkedIn  Story Aligned  Transcript Nick Usborne, Christian Klepp Nick Usborne  00:00 AI can do a wonderful job in many ways, but it’s never walked down the beach and felt the sand between its toes. It’s read about it. It’s never eaten ice cream. It’s read about that, but it’s never felt it. So that’s what I mean by lived experience. I think that content and stories that truly resonate with people you use those kind of touch points the the deeply human side of being alive. And like, say, I think AI can get close when you prompt it really well, but also, there’s a messiness that makes us recognize one another, the little mistakes we make. That’s what makes us human. We are messy. AI, it’s not very good at being messy. You can ask it to be messy, and it’ll try to figure that out, but it’s really not the same. And like I say, I think people are very sensitive to this kind of nuance. Christian Klepp  00:51 When brands rely on the same AI tools and prompts, they start to sound like everyone else. That loss of voice can hurt trust and lead to something called Brand drift. So how can B2B Marketing teams scale content with AI while staying true to their story? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Nick Usborne, who will be answering this question. He’s the Founder of Story Aligned, a training program for Marketing teams that want to scale content using AI while protecting the integrity of their brand story and voice. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is. Mr. Nick Usborne, welcome to the show, sir.  Nick Usborne  01:32 Thank you very much. Thank you Christian. Thank you for having me.  Christian Klepp  01:35 Pleasure to have you on the show. Nick, you know we had such a fantastic pre interview call. It was a bit of a you did drop a few hints and clues about what was to come, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation. I’m going to keep the audience in suspense a little while longer as I move us into the first question. So off we go.  Nick Usborne  01:55 Okay. Christian Klepp  01:56 All right, so, Nick, you’re on a mission to equip Marketing teams to scale AI powered content while staying aligned with their organization, story and voice. So for this conversation, let’s focus on the topic of how to use AI for B2B content without losing trust. And it is at the time of the recording, the end of 2025 and of course, we’re going to talk about AI, but we’re going to zoom in on something specific as it pertains to B2B content and a little bit of branding in there as well. But I wanted to kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So the first question is, why do you believe it’s so important for brands and their Marketing teams to embrace AI so that they can scale? And the second question is, why does this approach require the right prompts and guardrails? I think that’s one thing that you mentioned in our previous conversation, the whole the whole piece about prompts and guardrails. Nick Usborne  02:53 Well, the first question, why do companies need to embrace AI? And the ridiculous answer to that. It’s not a good answer, but it’s true is that because everyone else is, because your competitors are, and they will create content at scale while you are not, and they will achieve reach that you can’t achieve without AI. And in fact, if they do it well, their content, their new content, will be very good, content deeply researched beyond perhaps what you can do. So it’s like everything within AI right now, like, like, Why? Why do all the companies like open AI and Google and Meta, why they all racing? Because if they don’t, someone else will get there first. And it’s, I’m not saying it’s a great reason, but I think it is the fundamental reason for companies to embrace AI, is that you will be left behind if you don’t. This is a transformational moment, and as much as we’d like to have choice, I think in this matter, we don’t have a lot of choice. So that’s my answer to that question. Repeat the second question for me. Christian Klepp  04:00 Absolutely, absolutely so based on, based on that, like, why does this approach require the right prompts and guardrails? Nick Usborne  04:10 As part of my business, I’m constantly researching this, and in particular, I’m researching the prompts people do so when say, could be writers coders, but in our world. Let’s say writers, principally, or marketers, are using AI. They’re using prompts, and they’re generally prompting about two things. One is narrative, like, what should we say? Or, you know, please write us a blog post about x. So that’s the that’s the topic, that’s the narrative. And then they’ll put in something say, oh, please do it in a voice that is authoritative and yet accessible. All right, so now that’s a voice. What they haven’t mentioned is what I think is the foundational layer, which is, which is story. And that’s important, because story is the only thing that is uniquely yours, if you have an narrative, if you, if you have voice, if you talk about something in a particular way, I can copy that with AI. I can copy it at scale. I can, I can look at the transcripts of Christian podcasts, and I can say, oh, I want to do one in exactly. Tell her the same topic. I can, you know, so when you focus on narrative, on what you write about in voice. I can copy it. There’s no moat. The only moat you have is with story, because every company’s story is unique. We can look at origin stories, foundation stories, we can look at customer stories through case studies, things like that. Those are always unique. No one else has Apple’s origin story. No one else has virgin Atlantic’s Founder’s story, etc. But we did some research recently. Actually, we did some research months ago, and I reconfirmed it earlier this week. I ran it. I ran it all again to look at the data. If you look at the top 20 prompt libraries that you know the big, trustworthy companies and organizations that put out prompt libraries for companies. If you look at the top 20 libraries and the 1000s and 1000s of prompts within there, 76% of those prompts are about the narrative. What to say? 17 are about voice. How do you sound? Only 7% relate to story. So this, to my mind, is where we have a problem. We have a disconnect. Everyone is going crazy, prompting for narrative and story, both of which have 0, zero mode, anyone can copy them at scale. And only 7% this very small percentage, are actually focusing on the one thing that is uniquely theirs and cannot be copied or challenged. So that when you say, when you, when you say I’m on a mission, that’s the mission for me to say, Hey guys, wake up. You’re You’re prompting the wrong things in the wrong way. Let’s like, go back and look at story Christian Klepp  07:12 Absolutely, absolutely. It almost sounds like an

PPC Strategies for Small B2B Brands to Beat Big Competitors So many B2B companies and marketing teams waste budget on tactics that don’t drive results or support core business goals. Smaller B2B brands often compete against much larger companies while working with less internal bandwidth, tighter budgets, and limited resources. The key being successful lies in their ability to be strategic, efficient, and resourceful despite these obvious constraints. So how can small B2B brands outmaneuver big competitors using PPC and smarter marketing strategies? That’s why we’re talking to Andy Janaitis (Founder and Chief Strategist, PPC Pitbulls), who shared his experience and PPC strategies for small B2B brands to beat big competitors. During our conversation, Andy discussed the importance of foundational B2B marketing elements like high-converting landing pages, automated email flows, and a well-structured PPC strategy. He highlighted why targeted messaging and measurement are essential to compete more effectively against competitors. Andy also underscored the value of understanding B2B audience pain points, having a well-designed website, and leveraging key metrics such as first-order profitability and customer lifetime growth. He emphasized the importance of transparency and authenticity in B2B marketing strategies and advocated for a data-driven approach that achieves scalable, profitable growth. https://youtu.be/DR6d_dFfnVI Topics discussed in episode: [03:06] The Small Brand Advantage: Why being smaller allows for more targeted messaging that resonates better than broad, big-brand ads. [05:05] Avoid the Testing Trap: Why splitting a small budget across too many creative tests leads to insufficient data and wasted spend. [07:14] Winning the Auction: How the real-time ad auction rewards quality and specificity, allowing you to pay less than big brands for premium placements. [09:50] The Conversion Ecosystem: The critical role of landing pages and automated email flows in nurturing leads who aren’t ready to buy yet. [14:58] 5 Essentials for Ad Readiness: A checklist of what you need (from audience understanding to goal clarity) before launching your first campaign. [21:55] AI in PPC: How AI-driven automation has powered platforms for years and where it is heading next. [25:34] Better Metrics: Why you should look past ROAS and focus on first-order profitability and customer lifetime growth. Companies and links mentioned: Andy Janaitis on LinkedIn  PPC Pitbulls  Transcript Andy Janaitis, Christian Klepp Andy Janaitis  00:00 If you’re sending people to a landing page that’s not built to convert, if it doesn’t have the social proof that gives somebody the trust in your product or your service, you may be able to get folks to your site, but they’re not ultimately going to purchase for you, and that’s just one other component. Something else we see all the time is email flows, so making sure that you have automated welcome flows, that if they don’t purchase the first time they’re on your site, they have a lower value touch point, whether it be downloading a free lead magnet or something like that, that brings them into your ecosystem and allows you to start nurturing the relationship over time. Those are two things that we see all the time, landing pages and email flows that are fundamentals that get overlooked and people say, hey, the ads aren’t working, you know, I gotta, you know, try more creative. I gotta keep tweaking. I gotta change, you know, the different structure that some YouTube Guru told me that I need to be running, when in reality, it’s like, no, there’s some key fundamentals that you’ve got to get right about your business first. And getting those things right is going to have 100 times more impact than tweaking little bits of the creative here and there. Christian Klepp  01:04 So many B2B companies and their marketing teams waste money on marketing that doesn’t match their business goals. They go up against much larger competitors, while also having to contend with limited budgets, resources and bandwidth. So how can smaller B2B brands outsmart their biggest counterparts and win? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Andy Janaitis, who will be answering this question. He’s the Founder and Chief Strategist of PPC Pitbulls, a boutique digital marketing agency that helps B2B businesses grow past seven figures through leveraging Google and Meta ads. Tune in to find out more about what the speed to be Marketers Mission is. All right, and off we go. Mr. Andy Janaitis, welcome to the show, sir. Andy Janaitis  01:50 Thanks for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:51 Really enjoyed our pre-interview conversation, Andy. We talked about a lot of things that range from B2B Marketing to family and hobbies and the different cities that we’re living in, and what have you. But I am really looking forward to this conversation, because it’s something that I think a lot of people in the B2B Marketing world can relate to. And if they can’t relate, they should all right, so let’s dive right in, because I think this is going to be a really interesting conversation, right? Andy Janaitis  02:19 Definitely. Christian Klepp  02:20 Okay. So Andy, you’re on a Mission to help scale independent B2B brands with data driven Google and Meta ads. But for this conversation, I’d like to zero in on the topic of how smaller B2B brands can outsmart the bigger competitors by being strategic with PPC. If we’re going to use military terms, it almost sounds like you have to learn how to use Guerrilla warfare instead of conventional war tactics, right? So I’m going to kick-off the conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them all right? So the first question is, what is it about PPC or Pay Per Click that you wish more people understood? And the second question is, why do you think small brands fail when they try to copy big brand ad strategies? Andy Janaitis  03:06 There’s a lot, a lot there to unpack, and I think, you know, there’s, I think you touched on it there, but there’s a lot of anxiety among small brands. We work with Founders and Marketing Directors of these independent brands, and oftentimes there’s a fear of a Google Ads or Meta ads, because they say, Hey, there’s some big competitors out there in my space that are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. And if I’ve got my little budget, if I’m trying to spend $5 or $10,000 a month, how do I have any chance of competing with them? You know, surely they’re going to outbid me on every single keyword, every single ad placement that I could be in, and what gets missed there is that you actually do have a big advantage in that being smaller. Your product probably has a smaller niche than you think, because you’re not distributed to everybody, you’re speaking to a smaller audience, which allows you to be much more targeted in your messaging. So in that way, where you might have some of these bigger brands that are, of course, way out investing, you that investment is being spread across so many different audiences and so many different placements, whereas you have the ability to say, Hey, I’ve got a limited budget. Let me only target, you know, the most likely people to purchase from me, and the people who are, you know, who I’m most likely to resonate with, and then give them a message that really speaks directly to them. So I think that’s the first and foremost thing to remember, is that you can take this, you know, supposedly disadvantage, and really turn it into an advantage when you when you focus in on, you know, who is your smallest, tightest, ideal client, that that you can target and speak to. I think that’s really, really important and gets missed and to your second question around, you know, the big brand tactics. I think a lot of times people see these in Instagram reels, LinkedIn posts that come up with a lot of different strategies that could work well, but are only going to work well on those larger budgets. So one great example of this. A lot of times I see people talking about creative testing and talking about needing we tested across 100 different assets, talk about, you know, let’s use AI so that we have the model in this particular influencer ad. You know, we can change the hair color and the shirt color and all these different combinations and test all these different things. The problem with that is, if you try that with a much smaller budget, you’re necessarily going to split, you know, the budget that many different ways. So say you run 100 different combinations, 100 different messages targets, you’re splitting your budget that many different ways, and you’re not building up enough data about any one of those individual combinations to make a good decision. So I always kind of tell people focus on the fundamentals. First worry about your top level messaging. What is it that really matters most and makes your product different, you know, and your really key differentiators to your to your most ideal audience, forget about, you know, button colors, or, you know, with these smaller budgets, don’t worry about testing. You know, what’s the color of the shirt that the model is wearing kind of thing, you know, you’ll have time to test those things in the future. But, you know, I think people get too caught up in those, those types of practices that, you know, big brands are spending a lot of time and money on and forget about, you know, the fundamentals themselves. Christian Klepp  06:35 Absolutely, absolutely. You brought up some really great points. I like to go back to like, two of them that you mentioned, I think the first one, short of getting too granular or getting too in the weeds, but you brough

Why B2B Lead Qualification Fails and How to Fix It  Traffic is cheap, but qualified B2B sales conversions are not. Too many CMOs in the B2B space are watching brilliant creative go to waste at the top of the marketing funnel because what’s passing through as a “qualified lead” often isn’t really qualified. How can B2B marketers identify where the real lead qualification bottleneck is? Why is rethinking how MQLs are defined, scored, and routed one the most strategic fixes a CMO can make to improve pipeline performance? That’s why we’re talking to Gabe Lullo (CEO, Alleyoop), who shared some insights around why B2B lead qualification fails and how to fix it at the top of the funnel. During our discussion, Gabe challenged the common misconception that poor lead quality is the issue when sales aren’t closing. Instead, he emphasized the importance of a clearly-defined Ideal Customer Profile (ICP), a strong product-market fit, and a well-mapped B2B sales journey. Gabe also stressed the need for A/B testing, identifying and resolving funnel bottlenecks, and using data-driven decision-making to improve lead conversion rates. He underscored the value of nurturing leads and cautioned B2B marketers against dismissing traditional marketing channels without rigorous testing. https://youtu.be/KXVmywNsfP0 Topics discussed in episode: [02:36] Why top-of-funnel lead qualification breaks down in B2B. [16:37] How to define and operationalize your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP). [12:17] When MQLs hurt more than they help, and how to fix them. [26:14] How A/B testing and data-driven decisions improve lead conversion. [27:53] Why lead nurturing is critical to long sales cycles. [34:05] When to test (not abandon) traditional B2B marketing channels. Companies and links mentioned: Gabe Lullo on LinkedIn  Alleyoop  ZoomInfo  Salesloft  Adobe  Transcript SPEAKERS Gabe Lullo, Christian Klepp Gabe Lullo  00:00 So we’re doing top of funnel activities, and then we’re sending leads over. The sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a, you know, seller problem. I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead. So they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? Christian Klepp  00:30 Traffic is cheap, but conversion is not too many CMOs (Chief Marketing Officer) are watching brilliant, creative go to waste at the top of the funnel, because what’s passing through as qualified just isn’t so how can you identify where the real bottleneck is, and why is rethinking how MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads) are defined and scored the single most strategic fix? A CMO can make welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Gabe Lullo, who will be answering these questions. He’s the CEO of Alleyoop, a sales development agency working with industry giants such as ZoomInfo, Salesloft and Adobe. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, and off we go. Mr. Gabe Lullo, welcome to the show, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:17 Christian. Thank you so much. First off, I’m a huge fan of yours, so is my team, and we just appreciate all that you do for the industry. And I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for the invite. Christian Klepp  01:28 Wow, wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. Right off the gate with the praise, thank you, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:33 Well, you deserve it, man, you’re the best. What do you do. I love it. I love your show, and I love being a part of that. Christian Klepp  01:38 I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know, we really had an awesome, like, pre-interview conversation. I’m gonna say, like, you know, talking about coming up to Toronto and Buffalo and what have you. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, Gabe, because, man, you know, what? As much as some Marketers probably don’t want to hear this. It’s an, I think this is an absolutely necessary conversation to have. Right this topic that we’re going to talk about, and I will not keep the audience in suspense for too long. I’m just going to jump into the first question, if you don’t mind. Gabe Lullo  02:09 Yeah, no problem. Let’s get right into it. Christian Klepp  02:11 All right, so Gabe, you’re on a mission to provide the ultimate assist to your clients by setting them up for success. So for this conversation, let’s zero in on the following topic of how B2B Marketers can fix qualification at the top. So here comes the first question in our previous conversation. You talked about many marketing funnels being a leaky bucket. Can you please explain what you meant by that? Gabe Lullo  02:36 Yeah, I think companies right now are going to market in a very hodgepodge type of way, you know, ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), you know, we throw that terminal around a lot, and, you know, people think they know what it is, or feel like they have it drilled down, or feel like it’s completely locked, locked in. And then clients invite us in, and we realize it’s not the case, and it’s not just what the ideal client profile is, which, of course, is quintessential to going to market, and it’s really the first step to qualification, isn’t it, right? But on the other side of it, it is, you know, is there a product market fit? Is there a pricing that needs to be aligned? What’s the competitive landscape look like? So when we’re having live conversations, our sellers are making, you know, 11 million cold calls a year. That’s front of the line conversations, right? And we can hear, understand, and truly, you know, debrief with what each call is sounding like, so we can then narrow in what those qualifications should be. You know, a lot of you know, let’s say VPs of sales come into the sales development side of the house or the marketing side of the house, and they apply sales training methodologies to top of funnel qualifications, and it really gets broken as well. So there’s a lot to unpack, but I’ll give you an example. You know, band for instance, but you know budget authority needed timing. Like, is that really the right qualification at the top of the funnel, or does that really, you know, evolve the seller and the demo and the discovery call at that moment in time. So really understanding who’s in charge of that top of funnel and what their experience is also as a part of it, in my opinion. Christian Klepp  04:13 Absolutely, absolutely and you’re absolutely right. There’s so much to unpack here, but I have to ask just from your experience, and I know you have a lot, it seems like it’s just, there’s so many moving parts in this ecosystem, and a lot of like, well, what causes the leaky funnel? I’m gonna say is a lot of the things that you just mentioned, right? It’s a lack of understanding of who the actual ICP is. It’s probably also, especially the bigger the the organization gets sorry to everyone out there, but the lack of ownership and accountability, the lack of an actual strategy, like, where’s this all gonna go? Right? Gabe Lullo  04:54 Oh, it’s interesting. Yeah, I find this to be our except we so we’re doing top of the funnel activities, and we’re sending leads over, the sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a seller problem. Now I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead so they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? It’s the entire channel, right? It’s the entire sales journey, and we have to make sure that all of those things are working like an engine, right? All the cylinders are working at the same time in the same motion, to truly know what the problem may be. So that that’s really exposed a lot when we step in and start doing top of funnel activities, Christian Klepp  05:55 Absolutely, absolutely. And that segues into the next question, which I feel you’ve already answered to a certain extent. But where do you feel the true bottleneck lies, and that may be dependent on the company, right? Because each company maybe has a different set of challenges. And most importantly, okay, where does the bottleneck lie? And how do how can B2B Marketing teams help address the bottleneck and not be part of the bottleneck? Gabe Lullo  06:21 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s an eight step approach to sales. That’s what we call your sales journey, right? You have, obviously, you know, list building, and then we have, of course, outreach, we have qualification, we have discovery call, we have demo, we have, you know, closing or negotiating. We have client success. I mean, that’s the basic funnel, if you will. So is our, I should say, all of those things operating at the best of its ability. And what is broken, and it’s, it’s the old, you know, Henry Ford approach the assembly line. You know, there’s an assembly line and building a car, and there’s an assembly line in sales. And you have to know those steps, firstly, two, you have to know if those steps are working correctly, and figure out where that bottleneck is, and then, you know, take those blockers away so that

How Performance-First B2B Marketing Drives Better Results Traditional B2B marketing and advertising are undergoing a major transformation in the age of AI and rapid technological advancement. With shifting market dynamics and budget cuts across B2B organizations, marketing teams are under pressure to do more with less and prove their impact on business performance and revenue growth. How can B2B marketers quickly adapt, demonstrate ROI, and establish a strategic role within their organizations? That’s why we’re talking to Keith Turco (CEO, Madison Logic), who shares insights and proven strategies on how performance-first B2B marketing drives better results. During our conversation, Keith explored the evolving B2B marketing landscape and explained why performance-first strategies are crucial in times of market changes and budget cuts. He emphasized the importance of data-driven insights to measure ROI, optimize media plans, and tailor messages to specific target audiences. Keith also highlighted the need for a full-funnel approach that leverages AI-powered personalization at scale, and integrating new channels like audio and video. Additionally, he elaborated on why understanding both personal and professional interests of buyers to shorten sales cycles and build brand affinity are essential. Keith stressed the value of creativity in performance marketing to maintain loyalty and differentiate top marketers. Tune in as he also shared some key findings of research conducted by Madison Logic and The Harris Poll on the future of advertising and the impact of AI on B2B marketing. https://youtu.be/DAYcJf7AlIs Topics discussed in episode: [2:09] How macroeconomic shifts and budget cuts are creating a “performance-first” approach. [6:12] Embracing AI: Moving from a reactive to a proactive stance in advertising.  [9:50] The consumerization of B2B: Why your next lead might come from a podcast or TikTok.  [13:15] The full-funnel advantage: Moving beyond fragmented tactics to a more unified data strategy.  [17:34] Communicating with the C-Suite vs. managers: Tailoring content for different “states of mind”. [22:27] Research insights: Why 73% of leaders see AI as the future of creative production. [32:12] Why abandoning brand for “just the facts” performance marketing is a mistake. Companies and links mentioned: Keith Turco on LinkedIn Madison Logic Transcript Keith Turco, Christian Klepp Christian Klepp  00:01 In the age of rapid technological developments in AI, traditional B2B, marketing and advertising are witnessing monumental changes with shifting market dynamics and budget cuts across B2B organizations, marketing teams will have to do more with less. So how can they achieve this and still be instrumental to organizational success? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Keith Turco, who will be answering this question. He’s the CEO of Madison Logic, which leads global account based marketing initiatives to help revenue driven marketers accelerate buying journeys with targeted, measurable strategies. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketer’s mission is. Okay, and here we are. Mr. Keith Turco, welcome to the show. Keith Turco  00:50 Thank you, Christian. Good to see you. Christian Klepp  00:53 Likewise, likewise. We had a great pre-interview conversation, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation. We got to buckle up a little bit, because there’s a lot to cover. There’s a lot to cover, but I think it’s going to be really interesting, relevant and pertinent to all those B2B marketers out there. So let’s, let’s dive right in. Keith Turco  01:11 Great. Excited to be here. Christian Klepp  01:12 All right, so Keith, you’re on a mission to help B2B companies succeed by delivering performance-first strategies across the full marketing funnel and performance-first, I think, is going to be a word or a term that we’re going to hear throughout this conversation, but for this conversation, let’s focus on a topic and unpack it from there, so it’s how B2B marketing teams can rapidly adapt to market changes and contribute to organizational success. So let me set this up a little bit, because that sounds like. that sounds a little bit generic. But you know, after after the description, I think people will understand what I’m talking about. So your company, Madison Logic, helps clients own the buying journey by creating lasting impact at every interaction with high value buying groups through data driven ABM. So let’s start off with this question, how have shifting macroeconomic conditions and budget cuts forced B2B marketing teams to do more with less? Keith Turco  02:09 Well inherent in the conversation, or the question is you’ve got less budget. You’ve seen lots of cuts come through either from a staff cutting perspective, you’ve got less people to help you execute against things, as well as less budget to spend on marketing. So what does that mean, and what are the implications? And how does our technology and our approach to market help. Everything from a performance first perspective allows things to be measured, and because you can measure, you can quickly calculate ROI, you can quickly optimize your your media plans, and you can also take a look at what your creative is and isn’t working and what’s working through from a content based perspective. So when you take a performance-first approach to your marketing initiatives, you have all the data at your fingertips to give you the insights and intelligence you need in order to hit the right targets and the right buying groups with the right message at the right time, and give you what you need to actually, really measure the impact and optimize on a regular basis to to prove the ROI that you’re trying to prove for the organization and support sales. Christian Klepp  03:19 Yeah, no, absolutely. And you touched on a lot of things there, which I think are going to be a to be things that are going to come up throughout this conversation. So things like calculating ROI, being able to measure. I mean, who doesn’t want to do that in the world of B2B, right? But how do you see a performance based approach? And I suppose that’s the next question. How does a performance based approach help companies to adapt to, well, a lot of these market changes, and I know that’s a bit of an understatement, because market changes, it’s so broad and multifaceted, but how does it help to address these changes? Keith Turco  03:51 First and foremost, I think access to data allows you to test and learn, what’s working, what’s not, against what buying groups. I kind of mentioned it a couple of minutes ago. But if you’re looking at what’s working against which target segment, what messages make the most sense, what content are they looking for? And then on top of that, you have a buying group. Each of those groups contain multiple levels of executives and employees. So are they all consuming the same message. Can you sub segment that buying group into different categories that consume different content, that allow them to actually understand the full picture that you’re trying to communicate? And then obviously prove out ROI? I think the other thing prove out ROI is a big statement. What does that mean? What are the KPIs? They’re different for each customer that’s out there, right? So what does ROI mean to one organization versus the other? And by allowing yourself to test and learn and gain the insights that you you’re looking for, you can prove out ROI in different ways. Ultimately, the ultimate ROI is reflected in sales, right? But. Some clients will work with us on visits to website. Other clients will work with us on appointment setting. Other clients will look at, you know, number of interactions. And then lastly, of course, looking at ROI from a sale based perspective and what they’re selling, Christian Klepp  05:18 Absolutely, absolutely. And we’re certainly going to talk about the buying committee a little bit later on in this conversation. The time of this recording is at the end of 2025 and you know, I have to ask you the question about AI, and I know you your company has done some research about that, and we will look into that a little bit further on. But because you’re talking about accessing data and analyzing and aggregating data, and how does, how has technological advancements, also in the form of artificial intelligence, perhaps help that process, but also threatened B2B marketing in a way? Keith Turco  05:56 I don’t think I ever view it as threatening. I’ll always look at AI as a form of enhancement and allowance to optimize and go to market. I think probably a future question you’re going to ask, I might actually jump to it as well from an AI perspective. Keith Turco  06:12 But the impact of AI on advertising and marketing, and how is it playing a role in performance marketing? AI allows itself and lends itself to really impact performance marketing, having been and being been at, and being a fan of and student of advertising. To me, I think that AI allows us to lean in a bit more. I think we should continue to ask ourselves those questions. But the core approach from the creative side of things will still be there. What AI will allow us to do in the performance marketing world is lean into what I was referring to earlier, which is test and learn. What messages based on which audience. How do I sub segment, buying groups? How do I sub segment, even some of those additional segments, and in an effort to not spend so much time adapting creative to those sub segments or geographies or different business units inside an organization, right so each of those things allows, or would benefit from having a much more tailored

How to Build a Winning Strategy for Your B2B Brand In a fast-paced business environment, marketers, agencies, and consultants must proactively help clients differentiate their brands in the marketplace. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging, and brand positioning, both for their own brands and key competitors. So how can teams conduct this kind of brand research and competitive analysis in a way that’s insightful, efficient, and actionable for planning the next steps? Tune in as the B2B Marketers on Mission Podcast presents the Marketing DEMO Lab Series, where we sit down with Clay Ostrom (Founder, Map & Fire) and his SmokeLadder platform designed for brand research, messaging and positioning analysis, and competitive benchmarking. In this episode, Clay explained the platform’s origins and features, emphasizing its role in analyzing brand positioning, core messaging, and competitive landscapes. He also stressed the importance of clear, consistent brand positioning and messaging, and how standardized make it easier to compare brands across multiple business values. Clay also highlighted the value of objective, data-driven analysis to identify brand strengths, weaknesses, and gaps, and how tools like SmokeLadder can save significant time in gathering insights to build trust with clients. He provided practical steps for generating, refining, and exporting brand messaging and analysis for internal or client-facing use. Finally, Clay also discussed how action items and recommendations generated from analysis can immediately support smart brand strategy decisions and expedite trust-building with clients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4_o1PzF1Kk Topics discussed in episode: [1:31] The purpose behind building SmokeLadder and why it matters for B2B teams [12:00] A walkthrough of the SmokeLadder platform and how it works [14:51] SmokeLadder’s core features [17:48] How positioning scores and category rankings are calculated [35:36] How differentiation and competitors are analyzed inside SmokeLadder [44:07] How SmokeLadder builds messaging and generates targeted personas [50:24] The key benefits and unique capabilities that set SmokeLadder apart Companies and links: Clay Ostrom Map & Fire SmokeLadder Transcript Christian Klepp  00:00 In an increasingly competitive B2B landscape, marketers, agencies and consultants, need to proactively find ways to help their clients stand out amidst the digital noise. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging and positioning of their own brands and those of their competitors. So how can they do this in a way that’s insightful, efficient and effective? Welcome to this first episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast Demo Lab Series, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Clay Ostrom about this topic. He’s the owner and founder of the branding agency Map and Fire, and the creator of the platform Smoke Ladder that we’ll be talking about today. So let’s dive in. Christian Klepp  00:42 All right, and I’m gonna say Clay Ostrom. Welcome to this first episode of the Demo Lab Series. Clay Ostrom  00:50 I am super excited and very honored to be the first guest on this new series. It’s awesome. Christian Klepp  00:56 We are honored to have you here. And you know, let’s sit tight, or batten down the hatches and buckle up, and whatever other analogy you want to throw in there, because we are going to unpack a lot of interesting features and discuss interesting topics around the platform that you’ve built. And I think a good place to start, perhaps Clay before we start doing a walk through of the platform is, but let’s start at the very beginning. What motivated you to create this platform called Smoke Ladder. Clay Ostrom  01:31 So we should go all the way back to my childhood. I always dreamed of, you know, working on brand and positioning. You know, that was something I’ve always thought of since the early days, but no, but I do. I own an agency called Map and Fire, so I’ve been doing this kind of work for over 10 years now, and have worked with lots and lots of different kinds of clients, and over that time, developed different frameworks and a point of view about how to do this kind of work, and when the AI revolution kind of hit us all, it just really struck me that this was an opportunity to take a lot of that thinking and a lot of that, you know, again, my perspective on how to do this work and productize that and turn it into something that could be used by people when we’re not engaged with them, in some kind of service offering. So, so that was kind of the kernel of it. I actually have a background in computer science and product. So it was sort of this natural Venn diagram intersection of I can do some product stuff, I can do brand strategy stuff. So let’s put it together and build something. Christian Klepp  02:46 And the rest, as they say, is history. Clay Ostrom  02:49 The rest, as they say, is a lot of nights and weekends and endless hours slaving away at trying to build something useful. Christian Klepp  02:58 Sure, sure, that certainly is part of it, too. Clay Ostrom  03:01 Yeah. Christian Klepp  03:02 Let’s not keep the audience in suspense for too long here, right? Like, let’s start with the walk through. And before you share your screen, maybe I’ll set this up a little bit, right? Because you, as you said, like, you know, you’ve built this platform. It’s called Smoke Ladder, which I thought was a really clever name. It’s, you like to describe it as, like, your favorite SEO (Search Engine Optimization) tool, but for brand research and analysis. So I would say, like, walk us through how somebody would use this platform, like, whether they be a marketer that’s already been like in the industry for years, or is starting out, or somebody working at a brand or marketing agency, and how does the platform address these challenges or questions that people have regarding brand strategy, analysis and research? Clay Ostrom  03:49 Yeah, yeah. I use that analogy of the SEO thing, just because, especially early on, I was trying to figure out the best way to describe it to someone who hasn’t seen it before. I feel like it’s a, I’m not going to fall into the trap of saying, this is the only product like this, but it has its own unique twists with what it can do. And I felt like SEO tools are something everybody has touched at one point or another. So I was using this analogy of, it’s like the s, you know, Semrush of positioning and messaging or Ahrefs, depending on your if you’re a Coke or Pepsi person. But I always felt like that was just a quick way to give a little idea of the fact that it’s both about analyzing your own brand, but it’s also about competitive analysis and being able to see what’s going on in the market or in your landscape, and looking specifically at what your competitors are doing and what their strengths and weaknesses are. So does that resonate with you in terms of, like, a shorthand way, I will say, I don’t. I don’t say that. It’s super explicitly on the website, but it’s been in conversation. Christian Klepp  05:02 No, absolutely, absolutely, that resonated with me. The only part that didn’t resonate with me is that I’m neither a coke or a Pepsi person. I’m more of a ginger ale type of guy. I digress. But yeah, let’s what don’t you share your screen, and let’s walk through this, right? Like, okay, if a marketing person were like, use the platform to do some research on, perhaps that marketers, like own company and the competitors as well, right? Like, what would they do? Clay Ostrom  05:32 Yeah, so that’s, that is, like you were saying, there’s, sort of, I guess, a few different personas of people who would potentially use this. And initially I was thinking a little more about both in house, people who, you know, someone who’s working on a specific brand, digging really deep on their own brand, whether they’re, you know, the marketing lead or whatever, maybe they’re the founder, and then this other role of agency owners, or people who work at an agency where they are constantly having to look at new brands, new categories, and quickly get up to speed on what those brands are doing and what’s the competitive space look like, you know, for that brand. And that’s something that, if you work at an agency, which obviously we both have our own agencies, we do this stuff weekly. I mean, every time a new lead comes in, we have to quickly get up to speed and understand something about what they do. And one of the big gaps that I found, and I’d be curious to kind of hear your thoughts on this, but I’ve had a lot of conversations with other agency owners, and I think one of the biggest gaps is often that brands are just not always that great at explaining their own brand or positioning or differentiation to you, and sometimes they have some documentation around it, but a lot of times they don’t. A lot of it’s word of mouth, and that makes it really hard to do work for them. If whatever you’re doing for them, whether that’s maybe you are working on SEO or maybe you’re working on paid ads or social or content, you have to know what the brand is doing and kind of what they’re again, what their strengths and weaknesses are, so that you can talk about that. I mean, do you come across that a lot in your work? Christian Klepp  07:33 How do I say this without offending anybody? I find, I mean jokes aside, I find, more often than not, in the especially in the B2B space, which is an area that I operate in, I find 888 point five times out of 10. We are dealing with companies that have a they, have a very rude, rudimentary, like, framework of something that remotely resembles some form of branding. And I know that was a very long winded a