Advertise on podcast: The Lawyer's Edge

Marcie Borgal Shunk is the founder and president of The Tilt Institute and creator of Leadership Foundations, a high-impact virtual program designed to give law firms essential leadership skills and practical solutions. For nearly three decades, she has worked with more than 3,000 law firm leaders on talent, culture, and leadership, helping dozens of AmLaw firms anticipate and prepare for the future of law. A Harvard graduate, Marcie holds two fellowships, four certifications in culture and coaching, and several board advisory positions. She is a frequent contributor to the American Lawyer, Thomson Reuters, and Bloomberg Law. Sona Spencer is the Chief Legal Talent Officer at Troutman Pepper Locke, where she leads the firm's legal recruiting, professional development, inclusion, and career coaching functions. Drawing from more than 15 years of experience in AmLaw 50 firms, she collaborates closely with firm stakeholders to implement training, compensation frameworks, and inclusion and retention strategies that ensure the firm can attract and retain talent at all levels to exceed client service goals. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT THE DEATH OF APPRENTICESHIP IN LAW FIRMS The apprenticeship model built generations of lawyers, and for a long time it worked. Junior associates learned by proximity, absorbing how to think and practice by working alongside more experienced attorneys over the course of years. Hybrid work, lateral mobility, and generational shifts in how people learn have quietly dismantled that model, and many firms are still operating as though it's intact. Addressing the problem requires more than plugging holes. Firms need to rethink how they signal investment in their people, build structured pathways that make expectations explicit, and develop the human and leadership skills that AI cannot replicate. The firms getting this right have moved beyond standalone training programs and created systems where talent can see the path, understand what's expected, and take an active role in their own development. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman talks with Marcie Borgal Shunk of The Tilt Institute and Sona Spencer of Troutman Pepper Locke about why the apprenticeship model is failing, what the most forward-thinking firms are doing differently, how AI is reshaping the skills lawyers need to develop, and where firm leaders should start if they want to make a real change. 2:38 - The origin of "The Death of Apprenticeship" article 4:08 - Why hybrid work and generational differences are breaking down the model 7:08 - Why what made senior lawyers successful may not work for the next generation 8:07 - Lateral mobility and compensation wars as added pressure on retention 10:45 - Making the business case for talent development 13:27 - Breaking down the true cost of replacing an associate 15:13 - AI and the risk of outsourcing junior associate learning 19:08 - The human skills firms need to be building deliberately 22:13 - Executive presence and how lawyers show up on camera and in rooms 27:07 - Why leaders have to model what they teach 29:34 - How Troutman Pepper Locke's YOUniversity achieved 75% participation in year one 32:02 - Benchmarks, Learning Management System (LMS) integration, and self-directed development paths 34:48 - Takeaways for smaller firms without large Learning & Development resources 38:44 - Starting small with pilots and building intentionally 41:26 - Don't assume your path is everyone's path 43:36 - Clear communication and moments of kindness Mentioned In The Death of Apprenticeship: What it Means for Lawyers and Law Firms Marcie Borgal Shunk on LinkedIn | The Tilt Institute Sona Spencer on LinkedIn | Troutman Pepper Locke The Death of Apprenticeship: Reimagining Law Firm Talent Strategy for a New Era Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge

Estelle Winsett is a former litigation attorney who now works as a style strategist for women in law. After seven years practicing law and more than a decade in legal professional development, she saw firsthand how perception, presence, and visibility influence who is trusted with leadership roles, client relationships, and partnership opportunities. Today, Estelle helps women lawyers align their outward presence with their expertise so they can show up with confidence, authority, and authenticity in courtrooms, boardrooms, and business development settings. Through speaking, consulting, and private styling, she teaches women how strategic personal style can support credibility, leadership presence, and professional growth. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT PERSONAL STYLE AND CREDIBILITY FOR LAWYERS Before a lawyer says a word in a room, others are already forming an impression. That assessment happens fast, and personal style is doing more work in that moment than most lawyers realize. It is the first nonverbal communication, and, like any form of advocacy, it can either work for you or against you. The lawyers who understand this treat style as a tool rather than an afterthought. A signature look builds the know, like, and trust factor over time. Clothes that fit and feel right reduce the mental energy that quietly drains confidence before the day even starts. And an outward presentation that reflects who a lawyer actually is today, rather than who they were earlier in their career, opens doors that strong work alone may not. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman talks with Estelle Winsett, a former litigation attorney and style strategist for women in law, about how personal style functions as a tool of advocacy, why the shift to business casual has created new challenges for lawyers at every level, how to develop a signature style that builds the know, like, and trust factor, and what practical steps lawyers can take to align their appearance with their authority. 2:49 - Why style transformation is about more than the clothes themselves 4:37 - Style as a tool of advocacy that works for you or against you 5:25 - How business casual has created new challenges for lawyers at every level 9:15 - What a signature style is and why it builds the know, like, and trust factor 13:17 - Why your wardrobe needs to evolve as your career does 15:38 - The halo effect and the science behind first impressions 20:41 - Defining the message you want your wardrobe to send 22:39 - Investment pieces versus trends and how to balance both 25:45 - Adding personality through accessories without overhauling your style 29:41 - The hidden mental energy cost of an unsolved wardrobe problem 32:01 - Fit is the single most important factor in how you present yourself MENTIONED IN ESTELLE WINSETT | HOW LAWYERS BUILD CREDIBILITY BEFORE THEY SAY A WORD Estelle Winsett Consulting | LinkedIn Take Estelle's Style Quiz Book a Style Discovery Call Paula Edgar | How to Boldly Be YOU in Everything You Do Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE This episode is brought to you by the coaching team at The Lawyer's Edge, a training and coaching firm that has been focused exclusively on lawyers and law firms since 2008. Each member of the team is a trained, certified, and experienced professional coach—and either a former practicing attorney or a former law firm marketing and business development professional. Whatever your professional objectives, our coaches can help you achieve your goals more quickly, more easily, and with significantly less stress. To get connected with your coach, fill out our contact form.

Niraj Chhabra is the founder of Sidebar Advisors, a financial planning firm dedicated exclusively to serving attorneys at every stage of their careers, from rising associates to equity partners. For more than 20 years, Niraj has helped lawyers navigate the financial complexity that comes with success, including partnership compensation, tax strategy, equity, retirement planning, and the competing demands of career growth and family life. Using a Behavioral Financial Advice approach, he works with attorneys to align their financial decisions with their values, helping them build wealth intentionally, reduce unnecessary stress, and create real optionality in both their careers and personal lives. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT TURNING LEGAL SUCCESS INTO FINANCIAL SECURITY A high income does not automatically produce financial security. Attorneys who are billing at the top of their game can still find themselves financially stuck, sitting on too much uninvested cash, watching savings fall behind income, and putting off financial decisions because another billable hour always takes priority. Getting ahead of that complexity requires more than good intentions. It means building systems that grow alongside income, understanding the financial dynamics specific to each stage of a legal career, and examining the behavioral patterns that shape how people make financial decisions long before they become lawyers. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman talks with Niraj Chhabra of Sidebar Advisors about why some high earners still feel financially stuck, how behavioral history shapes financial decisions, what many lawyers get wrong about building wealth, and the systems that make the difference over time. 2:32 - Why some high-earning lawyers still feel financially stuck 3:12 - How reversing the savings and checking account structure changes spending behavior 4:04 - The cost of leaving millions sitting in a savings account uninvested 5:38 - What makes financial planning for lawyers uniquely complicated 7:05 - What behavioral financial advice actually means 10:02 - Unpacking cultural and family background before making financial plans together 12:23 - How equity partnership changes the financial picture for lawyers 15:05 - Why some lawyers turn down partnership because their spouse doesn't understand the compensation structure 17:34 - Financial considerations across career transitions, from associate to partner to in-house to solo 22:02 - Why the retirement number looks different depending on how accounts are structured 27:00 - Gender-specific financial dynamics for women lawyers 33:03 - Practical habits that distinguish lawyers who build long-term wealth 35:13 - What to do first if you feel financially successful but uncertain about the bigger picture 37:30 - The money stories we carry and how they show up in financial behavior MENTIONED IN TURNING LEGAL SUCCESS INTO FINANCIAL SECURITY Sidebar Advisors | LinkedIn Niraj Chhabra on LinkedIn Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE This episode is brought to you by the coaching team at The Lawyer's Edge, a training and coaching firm that has been focused exclusively on lawyers and law firms since 2008. Each member of the team is a trained, certified, and experienced professional coach—and either a former practicing attorney or a former law firm marketing and business development professional. Whatever your professional objectives, our coaches can help you achieve your goals more quickly, more easily, and with significantly less stress. To get connected with your coach, fill out our contact form.

Dennis Meador is the CEO of The Legal Podcast Network. DM has been an entrepreneur since he was a teenager, building businesses in everything from shoveling snow to SEO before finding his fit helping attorneys share their voices. A lifelong communicator from his years as a pastor to his more than 20 years in legal marketing, DM believes the best ideas don't come from selling, they come from conversations.  WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT HOW FAQ PODCASTS HELP LAWYERS DIFFERENTIATE Eighty-two percent of people use the internet to find their attorney. They type in a search, get hundreds of results, and every lawyer looks the same. With no way to distinguish expertise, potential clients default to asking how much it costs. The legal profession has become commoditized, turning skilled attorneys into interchangeable service providers competing on price alone. The solution isn't more traditional marketing. It's conversations. Founder-led, authentic content where lawyers answer the specific questions their ideal clients are asking. FAQ-style podcasts give attorneys the opportunity to demonstrate their expertise, show they understand client problems, and position themselves as the obvious choice before a prospect ever picks up the phone. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise talks with Dennis Meador of The Legal Podcast Network about why expertise needs to be visible to be valuable, how podcasting creates authority through conversations instead of sales tactics, what lawyers get wrong about giving away knowledge for free, and the multiple ways podcasts generate business beyond download numbers and ad revenue. 2:06 - Why 82% of clients search online and what that means for lawyer visibility 3:34 - How commoditization has driven down hourly rates over the past decade 6:51 - Founder-led, authentic marketing is what resonates with today's clients 8:14 - Why FAQ-format podcasts are the best way for lawyers to differentiate 10:33 - The two biggest objections lawyers have about sharing expertise publicly 13:36 - Why posting too much content won't chase away the clients you actually want 16:24 - Authority podcasts are designed to inform potential clients, not brag 18:21 - How to create a year's worth of evergreen podcast content 21:25 - Using patterns in client stories instead of specific confidential details 23:23 - The nuts and bolts of podcast ROI for lawyers 26:40 - Monetization strategies beyond ad revenue and sponsorships 33:23 - Turning 30 minutes of recording into a month of marketing content 35:29 - The curse of knowledge: explaining things like you're talking to an eight-year-old 37:03 - Cumulative learning and why repeating yourself actually delivers value MENTIONED IN CONVERSATIONS AS AUTHORITY: HOW FAQ PODCASTS HELP LAWYERS DIFFERENTIATE AND ATTRACT CLIENTS The Legal Podcast Network | LinkedIn Dennis Meador on LinkedIn Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Adam Severson is the Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at Baker Donelson, a leading national firm with more than 700 lawyers and 25-plus offices in the United States, primarily in the southeastern U.S. Adam's role is unique compared to many who hold that title in that he spends a lot of his time meeting with clients and actually selling the firm's services. Adam is a past president of the Legal Marketing Association and a Hall of Fame member. He's also a Fellow in the College of Law Practice Management. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT EXECUTIVE PRESENCE Executive presence can seem hard to define. Many people think you either have it or you don't. But Adam Severson frames it differently. When you walk into a room or lead a pitch meeting, others are asking themselves whether they can take you seriously and whether you instill confidence. That assessment happens fast, and it's based on more than just what you say. The lawyers who are best at client development aren't necessarily the ones trying to be the smartest or most interesting person in the room. They're the ones who show up prepared, ask thoughtful questions about what's actually happening in a client's business, and then follow through when they promise to find an answer. Adam calls that gap between what people say they will do and what they actually do the "say-do gap." Closing it builds trust faster than almost anything else, and most people never even realize they're leaving it open. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman talks with Adam Severson about what executive presence actually looks like in law firms, why imposter syndrome stops people from even trying to develop it, and how lawyers can build credibility through preparation and genuine curiosity rather than trying to have all the answers. 2:09 - How Adam defines executive presence  3:16 - The three elements of executive presence  5:26 - Executive presence vs. confidence and whether you can have one without the other 6:22 - Practical behaviors to demonstrate executive presence 8:53 - Being interested in others matters more than being interesting 10:27 - Using data to build credibility with lawyers and practice groups 15:07 - How executive presence impacts business development and client retention 15:32 - The "say-do gap" and why following through on what you promise matters 21:10 - Imposter syndrome keeps people from trying to develop executive presence 22:14 - The perfectionism problem and why you don't need all the answers 25:07 - Lessons learned from Adam's own career building executive presence 28:20 - Modifying the approach by showing your work instead of just stating the conclusion 30:38 - Don't make assumptions about who you're talking to 34:06 - Why self-awareness matters more than confidence Mentioned in Executive Presence: How to Turn Skill into Influence Baker Donelson | LinkedIn Adam Severson on LinkedIn Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Abby Remore is a member at Chiesa Shahinian & Giantomasi (CSG Law) in Roseland, New Jersey, where she leads the firm's trademark and copyright practice group. Her practice focuses on protecting brands and creative works through litigation, enforcement, clearance, counseling, licensing, and prosecution of trademark and copyright applications. She has particular expertise litigating trademark and copyright disputes in federal courts and before the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board. Abby is president-elect of the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT BUILDING CAREER AUTONOMY AS A LAWYER Saying yes to every opportunity, volunteering for committees, and being the person others can count on helps associates build strong reputations and advance toward partnership. Once lawyers make partner, the job description changes. They're expected to continue producing excellent work while also developing business, leading teams, and contributing to firm management. Without recalibrating, the habits that earned the promotion can quickly become overwhelming. The transition requires intentional choices about what work means and how time gets allocated. Business development stops being something that happens when there's time left over and becomes a core responsibility. Delegation shifts from losing control to creating capacity for higher-value work. Stepping back from committees and saying no becomes necessary instead of optional. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise talks with Abby Remore, an alumna of the inaugural Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator cohort, about making the partnership transition successfully. They discuss redefining what counts as work, learning when to say no, why business development requires the same intentionality as billable work, and how lawyers can build careers that reflect their own values instead of copying someone else's blueprint. 2:52 - How Abby ended up in law without planning to be a private practice lawyer 7:11 - The challenge of transitioning from associate to leader and business generator 10:13 - How the job shifts when you make partner and why saying yes stops working 15:36 - What motivated Abby to join the Ignite program 18:01 - The biggest mindset shift: business development isn't just networking events 21:28 - Why BD and leadership development are about mindset, not just tactics 22:30 - The apprenticeship model is dying: why outside programs matter 25:49 - Staying intentional as an emerging rainmaker and avoiding old habits 28:26 - Changing your job description to include business development 31:30 - The curse of knowledge: advice for lawyers building their own vision of success Mentioned In Own Your Career: How Intentional Choices Create Autonomy for Lawyers Chiesa Shahinian & Giantomasi (CSG Law) | LinkedIn Abby Remore on LinkedIn New Jersey Women Lawyers Association Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Dawn Anderson is the Chief Human Resources Officer at Butler Snow LLP, a law firm with nearly 400 lawyers across 25 offices. With more than 30 years of HR experience and both an MBA and law degree from the University of Georgia, Dawn brings a unique perspective to law firm leadership. After two decades in HR leadership roles in retail and manufacturing, Dawn transitioned to the legal industry where she now oversees Butler Snow's HR function and operations. She has taught as an adjunct professor teaching college-level courses and facilitating countless training seminars on leadership, management, and human resources. She is also an active member of the Atlanta Association of Legal Administrators, where she previously served as board member and chapter president. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT STRATEGIC HR LEADERSHIP Law firms often treat HR as a cost center or an administrative function that handles paperwork, processes bonuses, and deals with employee issues when they come up. But there's often a disconnect between what HR professionals actually do and how lawyers value that work. Administrative leaders get kept out of important conversations, even when those decisions directly affect people and performance. When HR leadership operates strategically and lawyers work with the professionals who understand people management, things change. Compensation systems become transparent and defensible instead of feeling like a black box. People get prepared for leadership roles instead of being promoted and left to figure it out. And firms make smarter decisions about retention, hiring, and succession planning because the work gets more intentional instead of reactive. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman is joined by Dawn Anderson to discuss building credibility as an HR leader in a law firm, why lawyers sometimes undervalue the work administrative professionals do, and how strategic people management changes both culture and business results. 2:49 - Dawn's journey from chemical engineering to HR with a JD and MBA 6:37 - Why lawyers sometimes undervalue administrative professionals 8:33 - Taking five years to get into the bonus process at her previous firm 9:33 - Creating a defensible bonus system in hours instead of days 14:42 - Building trust and credibility with attorneys using The First 90 Days approach 17:31 - The challenge of recruiting legal assistants in today's market 21:30 - Pairing experienced legal assistants with new attorneys as a training tool 24:18 - What "revenue enablers" means and why language matters 26:39 - Change management without the corporate jargon 28:28 - Getting the right people in the right seats 30:30 - Preparing people for partnership instead of just promoting them 33:32 - Why investing in people beats losing them to firms that will 38:04 - HR is everyone's job, not just HR's job MENTIONED IN HOW STRATEGIC HR TRANSFORMS LAW FIRM PERFORMANCE Butler Snow LLP | LinkedIn Dawn Anderson on LinkedIn The First 90 Days by Michael D. Watkins   Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Stacy Ackermann is the global managing partner of K&L Gates, one of the world's leading law firms with more than 45 offices across the globe. A trailblazing leader and accomplished finance lawyer, Stacy brings a rare blend of strategic vision, authenticity, and deep industry insight to her position. Drawing on her extensive experience advising on complex transactions and a long track record in key leadership roles, she's shaping the future of the legal profession with a focus on innovation, collaboration, and inclusive leadership. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT RAINMAKING AND IMPACTFUL LAW FIRM LEADERSHIP Many lawyers see business development and firm leadership as entirely different skill sets—rainmaking on one side, management on the other. But attorneys who have done both often discover the gap isn't as wide as it looks. The same strengths that build a thriving book of business—deep relationships, engaged teams, and a genuine understanding of client needs—are the very ones that fuel effective leadership. Stacy Ackermann never set out to become managing partner of K&L Gates. She wanted to work on deals, serve clients, and grow her practice. But she also couldn't sit on the sidelines when important decisions were being made. That tension between wanting to focus on the work and needing to be at the table shaped everything about how she leads today. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise speaks with Stacy about her path from summer clerk to leading 1,700 lawyers across 45 offices worldwide. They discuss building teams through relationships, why disagreement strengthens trust when there's mutual respect, how compensation structures can encourage collaboration, and why her closing advice is both simple and hard—take a risk on yourself. 2:57 - Why Stacy never raised her hand for leadership but couldn't stay on the sidelines 5:38 - Building a team isn't about delegation, it's about investing in relationships 8:05 - What loan workouts taught her about taking problems apart and putting them back together 10:27 - Why respectful disagreement from regional managing partners is actually good feedback 13:20 - Learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable as the path to growth 17:35 - Why AI won't replace lawyers  19:35 - The mini MBA program for second-year associates learning the business of law 22:13 - The lateral market is eye-opening and makes your head spin 24:28 - Why first-year classes have gotten smaller and what that means for partner capital 27:26 - How compensation structure encourages collaboration across offices 32:01 - Bringing the voice of the client into every management committee meeting 36:03 - If you're going to take a risk, take a risk on yourself Mentioned In A Focus on Relationships: The Real Key to Rainmaking and Impactful Leadership K&L Gates | LinkedIn Stacy Ackermann on LinkedIn Smart Collaboration and Smarter Collaboration by Dr. Heidi Gardner Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Elise Buie is the founder and CEO of Elise Buie Family Law in Seattle, Washington. After losing everything in Hurricane Katrina, she rebuilt her life and career from scratch, bringing lessons in resilience and New Orleans hospitality to her practice.  Elise is a passionate and creative family law attorney who has lived the life you're living now, juggling the endless tasks of a lawyer and law firm owner while dreaming of something better. She grew her firm from six figures to multiple seven figures, navigating the pandemic and intentionally scaling back to ensure the firm operates with healthy numbers and a culturally aligned team.  WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT BUILDING A PROFITABLE LAW FIRM WITHOUT BURNING OUT YOUR TEAM Most law firms measure success by billable hours and revenue growth. But what if the path to profitability runs through shorter workweeks, lower billable targets, and generous budgets for client gifts? Elise Buie grew a family law practice from six figures to multiple seven figures while implementing policies that sound counterintuitive. Attorneys bill around 1,200 hours annually. Paralegals work 30-hour weeks while getting paid for 40. Team members receive bonuses for "unreasonable hospitality" rather than billing more hours. The firm maintains 30% profit margins with a three-times return on investment per employee, proving that you don't need to run your team into the ground to build a successful practice. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge podcast, Elise Holtzman speaks with Elise Buie about building a profitable law firm without sacrificing what matters most, including how to delegate effectively, why emotional intelligence is critical in family law, and what it really takes to create a culture where people bring their best selves to work. 2:32 - Rebuilding after Hurricane Katrina and how COVID tested the firm 5:39 - What unreasonable hospitality means and why it matters 8:49 - Why the firm bonuses people for client delight, not billable hours 11:48 - Hiring for alignment and emotional intelligence 13:30 - Why the firm turns away most applicants to find the right fit 16:56 - How the firm stays profitable with attorneys billing 1,200 hours a year 18:09 - Running the business by the numbers while keeping reduced hours 21:30 - Where the business knowledge came from (hint: lots of studying) 23:04 - Why daily data dashboards reveal problems before they become crises 26:14 - Why delegated work doesn't have to be perfect to be valuable Mentioned In Scaling With Soul: Building a Profitable Law Firm Without Burning Out Your Team Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara Elise Buie Family Law Group | LinkedIn Elise Buie on LinkedIn  Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Lisa Sawyer Derman is the Founder and CEO of Five Springs Infused Bourbon, a bourbon brand that blends Kentucky roots with modern, mixable flavor. Before launching Five Springs, Lisa spent more than 30 years in the global spirits industry, building and leading some of the world's top alcohol brands. Her career includes serving as Chief Operating Officer at Stoli Group, Head of Legal at Absolut, and the Head of the North Division at The Macallan. Drawing on her legal background and executive leadership experience, Lisa launched Five Springs in 2024 with three distinctive expressions—Vanilla Maple, Honey Sage, and Blood Orange—crafted to be enjoyed neat, on the rocks, or in cocktails. Five Springs is designed to make bourbon more approachable and inclusive for a wider range of drinkers and is currently available online nationwide and at retail in multiple states. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT BUILDING A BOURBON BRAND Launching a spirits brand is nothing like selling a typical consumer product. The industry is heavily regulated, the three-tier system slows everything down, and it can take years before a product reaches a shelf. After spending more than 30 years as a lawyer and senior executive in the global spirits industry, Lisa Sawyer Derman knew the legal, operational, and financial pieces she would need to get right. Instead of starting with a big marketing push, she tested the product at home, refined the formulas with her family, and proved the concept in two markets before expanding. Her background in deals, regulation, branding, and operations helped her avoid costly mistakes and build a bourbon brand designed to be more approachable and mixable. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise talks with Lisa about moving from legal roles into business leadership, launching in a highly regulated industry, learning from founders she worked with along the way, and how she used three decades of industry experience to shortcut the hardest parts of alcohol startups and launch a bourbon brand built for today's drinkers. 2:26 — How a summer mentor pulled her into alcohol beverage law 6:36 — Moving in-house and shifting from legal to deals and operations 11:39 — Using regulatory experience to reduce startup risk (labels, formulas, distributors) 15:05 — Kitchen experiments lead to the infused-bourbon concept for cocktails 18:59 — Testing before investing: launching first in New Jersey and Kentucky 23:35 — From behind-the-scenes lawyer to founder as the face of the brand 26:13 — Handling skepticism in a crowded category and staying with the strategy 29:33 — Advice to younger lawyers: training, mentors, specialization 33:26 — What she tells lawyers who want to start a business 35:49 — Trust your instincts instead of assuming anyone else knows better than you Mentioned In Legal Spirits: How One Lawyer Turned a Legal Career into a Bourbon Brand Five Springs Infused Bourbon | Instagram Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Ryan Kimler is the founder of Net Profit CFO and host of the Net Profit Podcast. He and his team help law firm owners understand their numbers, make better business decisions, and build more profitable and sustainable practices by using accounting and finance to give firm leaders clear information they can act on, so their businesses stay financially healthy and have the resources to grow. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT LAW FIRM PROFITABILITY Law school teaches lawyers how to practice law, not how a law firm makes money. Many attorneys work hard, bill hours, build relationships, and still don't really know how the business side works. The truth is, partners and firm leaders usually want younger lawyers to understand this—they just don't always talk about it unless someone asks. When you understand how the money moves through a firm, everything gets clearer. You can see what makes a matter profitable, what slows things down, and how your work contributes to the bigger picture. It also gives you insight into the decisions that drive compensation and advancement. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise talks with fractional CFO Ryan Kimler about the business of law and why every lawyer should understand it. They break down how law firms actually make profit, why busy doesn't always mean profitable, how pricing and staffing decisions affect results, and how lawyers at every level can use financial information to make smarter choices about their careers. 2:18 – Why good legal work doesn't automatically translate into compensation 4:12 – The silent profit killers: time leakage, realization, and collection rates 8:26 – Two lawyers bill the same hours. One generates more profit 12:13 – Lawyers get promoted into leadership without ever learning the business of law 15:02 – Why firm leaders are relieved when associates ask how the business works 18:16 – What financially healthy firms track that struggling firms ignore 21:17 – Lawyers lose money doing their own admin work instead of delegating 27:21 – A simple way to know when it is time to hire help 30:39 – The pricing mistake that leaves money on the table at many firms 35:20 – Ryan's biggest advice for lawyers who want to earn more MENTIONED IN MONEY MATTERS: WHAT EVERY LAWYER SHOULD KNOW ABOUT LAW FIRM PROFITABILITY Net Profit CFO | LinkedIn Ryan Kimler on LinkedIn The Net Profit Podcast Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Lisa Smith is a principal in the Washington, D.C. office of Fairfax Associates. She advises leading law firms domestically and internationally on strategy development, mergers, management and governance, partner compensation and structure issues, and financial and operational performance and management. She has been advising law firms for more than 35 years. She is a frequent speaker at industry events and webinars and recently appeared on the TV show Wall Street Week talking about the potential for private equity investment in U.S. law firms. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT TRANSFORMING LAW FIRM STRATEGY The legal profession is in a period of meaningful evolution. Firms are exploring new ways to grow, serve clients, and create sustainable operations. Consolidation is increasing, alternative staffing models are expanding, and clients are more sophisticated buyers than ever before. These changes are opening the door to fresh approaches in how firms compete and deliver value. For law firm leaders, it also means making smarter decisions about compensation, investment, and long-term positioning. The firms that are succeeding aren't reacting to the market—they're planning for it. They're thinking carefully about scale, profitability, and how to structure themselves for continued success. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise talks with Lisa Smith of Fairfax Associates about what these shifts mean in practice. They discuss the drivers behind consolidation, how firms are restructuring to stay competitive, what private equity could mean for the industry, and why thoughtful strategy—not panic—is what separates firms that adapt from firms that fall behind. 2:15 — The three trends shaping the legal industry right now 7:22 — Why even well-established firms are open to mergers 10:42 — How AI and technology are changing what clients send to outside counsel 12:08 — The risk for smaller firms with highly specialized practices 13:55 — What the UK's private equity model could signal for U.S. law firms 16:22 — How MSOs work and why firms are considering them 19:02 — The tradeoffs of moving to an MSO structure 24:25 — Signs that firms are already adjusting their strategy 25:24 — How partner compensation models are evolving 34:18 — What makes a strategic plan realistic instead of aspirational 36:47 — Lisa's advice to leaders who want to stay ahead of change Mentioned In From Consolidation to Capital: How Big Shifts are Transforming Law Firm Strategy Fairfax Associates | LinkedIn Lisa Smith on LinkedIn Merger Press Releases Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Dusty Holcomb is the Founder and CEO of The Arcqus Group, an executive coaching and leadership consulting firm that helps leaders connect purpose to performance through clarity, consistency, and accountability. With a background that spans senior leadership, operations, and culture building, Dusty works with executives and their teams to unlock potential and lead with intention. Before founding The Arcqus Group, Dusty served as CEO of National Car Rental and Alamo Rent A Car, where he led thousands of employees across North America. He holds an MBA from Auburn University and completed the Advanced Management Program at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. A member of the National Association of Corporate Directors, the Private Directors Association, and YPO, Dusty also serves on multiple private and nonprofit boards and is a five-time Ironman finisher. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT EFFECTIVE LAW FIRM LEADERSHIP When people don't understand why their work matters or how it connects to where the firm is going, they show up differently. They do what's required but not much more. And that gap between doing the minimum and bringing your best? That's discretionary effort. Law firm leaders deal with this all the time. You've got talented people who care about their work, but they're buried under billable hours and competing priorities. It's difficult to step back and create the clarity that actually helps people engage. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise talks with executive coach Dusty Holcomb about practical ways to lead more intentionally. Dusty shares five questions that help leaders connect their teams to purpose and vision and explains why you have to repeat key messages far more often than feels comfortable. They also dig into how to shift from constant reaction mode to intentional leadership and what it really takes to lead yourself before you can effectively lead others. 4:52 — Why leadership is influence, not authority, and why it starts with leading yourself first 8:07 — The five questions that help leaders bring purpose and clarity to their teams 11:36 — How simplifying expectations keeps people focused and accountable 15:10 — The role of consistency and repetition in creating alignment and culture 19:24 — Shifting from reactivity to intentional leadership and controlling your calendar before it controls you 23:18 — How reflection and planning build self-awareness and better decision-making 27:42 — When to delegate, what to let go of, and how trust frees leaders to lead 31:56 — Why discretionary effort is the measure of a healthy, engaged team 35:27 — What lawyers can learn from leadership practices outside the legal profession MENTIONED IN CONNECTING THE DOTS: HOW TO EFFECTIVELY LEAD YOURSELF AND OTHERS The Arcqus Group Dusty Holcomb on LinkedIn 10x Is Easier Than 2x by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Ben Hardy Chick-fil-A's "My Pleasure" Example Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Ken Falcon is the Co-Managing Partner of Falcon Rappaport & Berkman LLP (FRB), where he has led the firm's expansion from a small Long Island practice with twelve staff to a multidisciplinary firm of more than 120 professionals with offices across the tri-state area, Florida, and California. Under his leadership, FRB has become a destination for ambitious associates, lateral partners, and small firms seeking a collaborative, forward-thinking environment that combines complex legal work with a genuine commitment to work-life balance. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT BUILDING A HEALTHY LAW FIRM CULTURE Ken Falcon built his firm from a solo practice into a multi-state team by refusing to squeeze maximum profit from his people. His leadership centers on honesty in hiring and twice-yearly reviews that track shifting priorities. By deliberately accepting lower profit margins, he's made real work-life balance possible—the kind of culture that keeps attrition low and inspires attorneys to bring in people they trust. When Ken was diagnosed with kidney cancer, his partners insisted he take an eight-week sabbatical and divided his work among themselves, a response that revealed the kind of loyalty and trust his leadership had fostered. The experience forced him to rebuild his role around what he actually wanted to do. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman talks with Ken about protecting culture during rapid growth. They discuss screening for fit over credentials, why he'd rather make less money than burn out his team, and how a health crisis taught him to restructure his role around what matters. 2:14 – Why Ken built a law firm that values people over profit 4:38 – How clear expectations and open communication sustain culture through growth 7:21 – The hiring conversations that reveal alignment and ambition 10:42 – Twice-yearly reviews and how they keep attorneys engaged and accountable 13:55 – Rethinking profitability: why FRB chose sustainability over maximizing margins 17:18 – What real work-life balance looks like inside a busy, expanding practice 21:06 – How leadership transparency drives retention and trust 24:37 – Balancing client demands with internal culture as the firm scales 28:10 – The link between compensation philosophy and firm stability 31:22 – Advice for law firm leaders who want to build healthier organizations MENTIONED IN KEN FALCON | HOW INTENTIONAL LEADERSHIP BUILDS STRONGER LAW FIRMS Falcon Rappaport & Berkman LLP | LinkedIn Ken Falcon on LinkedIn Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Vicki Odette is a Partner at Haynes Boone, an Am Law 100 firm with more than 700 lawyers across 19 offices worldwide. Based in Dallas, she serves on the firm's Executive Committee and is Global Chair of the Investment Management Practice Group. Her practice focuses on advising fund sponsors and investors on structuring and negotiating private equity, hedge fund, and venture capital investments, as well as complex partnership and joint venture arrangements. Vicki also counsels ultra high net worth individuals and families with assets exceeding $1 billion on business planning for family offices and their investments. In 2024, the Minority Corporate Counsel Association honored Vicki with its Rainmakers Award, recognizing her as one of the profession's leading business developers and client relationship leaders. WHAT'S COVERED IN THIS EPISODE ABOUT BECOMING A RAINMAKER For some lawyers, business development feels like a mystery, something reserved for extroverts or senior partners with decades of connections. Vicki Odette proves that's a myth. From her earliest years in practice, she treated business development as part of the job, not an afterthought. By asking questions, watching what successful partners did, and trying her own experiments, she built a network rooted in trust instead of transactions. In this episode of The Lawyer's Edge, Elise Holtzman and Vicki Odette talk about what it really takes to become a rainmaker. They highlight the patience, persistence, and consistency that separate future rainmakers from frustrated associates. They also share how finding strategies that fit your personality can lead to something even more valuable than clients, genuine control over your career. 2:35 – Starting business development early and laying the groundwork for future clients 4:31 – Learning by observing successful partners and adapting their strategies 5:49 – Overcoming intimidation and finding networking tactics that feel authentic 7:59 – Why introverts can excel at business development 11:03 – The personal and professional rewards of long-term client relationships 13:19 – How business development creates autonomy, leadership, and compensation growth 15:07 – Making clients feel like a top priority through proactive communication 17:35 – Anticipating client needs and cross-selling across practice areas 19:34 – Why small roundtables and intimate events outperform large networking mixers 22:58 – Handling rejection, asking for feedback, and using lost pitches as data 25:00 – Navigating bias and maintaining confidence in male dominated rooms 26:53 – Gender differences in rainmaking styles and how women can own their strengths 29:17 – Practical advice for young lawyers beginning their business development journey 32:37 – The overlooked key to client loyalty is caring about their business beyond the matter MENTIONED IN HOW LEADING RAINMAKERS PLAY THE LONG GAME IN BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT Haynes Boone | LinkedIn Vicki Odette on LinkedIn Minority Corporate Counsel Association (MCCA) Get connected with the coaching team: [email protected] The Lawyer's Edge SPONSOR FOR THIS EPISODE Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a 9-month business development program created BY women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers AND supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. If you are interested in either participating in the program or sponsoring a woman in your firm to enroll, learn more about Ignite and sign up for our registration alerts by visiting www.thelawyersedge.com/ignite.