Advertise on podcast: The Persuasion Occasion

David and Jasmine discuss the art of courtroom persuasion with John Snow, author of Rules to Speak By, setting forth 10 key rules of advocacy and providing transcripts and examples from real trials illustrating these points. John’s book is short, concise and very readable--the Strunk & White version of an advocacy handbook. He incorporates lessons he has learned from lawyers, judges, behavioral scientists and even musicians, and John combines cognitive psychology with real-world courtroom examples. John explains why effective advocacy is a skill that can be learned rather than an innate talent. He shares practical strategies for connecting with juries, structuring persuasive arguments, using visuals effectively, and understanding the psychology behind communication. Our conversation explores how preparation, storytelling, audience awareness, and deliberate practice can help lawyers strengthen their courtroom presence and become more confident, compelling advocates. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

The Emotions of Negotiation with Attia Qureshi David and Jasmine discuss the emotions of negotiating with Attia Qureshi, negotiation expert and author of Never Settle. Attia is a negotiation expert who has advised Fortune 500 executives, taught at institutions including MIT and the University of Michigan, and worked with leaders navigating complex, high-stakes conversations. She brings a practical and human-centered approach to negotiation by combining proven strategies with emotional awareness and relationship-building. Attia shows how successful negotiation is not just about winning an argument but understanding people, managing emotions, and building trust. She explains how preparation, curiosity, reciprocity, and small everyday interactions can strengthen relationships and improve outcomes. Attia also shares how anyone can build negotiation skills through practice, resilience, and the confidence to ask for more. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

David and Jasmine discuss the emotions of negotiating with Max Bevilacqua, founder and chief negotiating officer of Mindful Negotiating, a consulting and training firm for high-powered leaders. Max has trained Fortune 100 executives, U.S. Army Special Forces, and legal professionals, and he has taught negotiation at Harvard Law School and the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy. He brings a highly relational and human-centered perspective to persuasion and advocacy. Max shows how influence often comes through listening, curiosity, emotional awareness, and the ability to de-escalate tension. He describes how successful negotiators are not simply skilled arguers but people who understand how emotions, identity, trust, and human connection influence outcomes. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

David and Jasmine speak with Gitane De Silva, formerly Alberta’s senior representative to the United States and CEO of the Canada Energy Regulator, with deep experience in international negotiations and Canada–U.S. relations. Gitane describes how international diplomatic negotiations are unique but also how the techniques and strategies share many similarities with legal and business negotiations.  The conversation breaks down how complex negotiations work, from trade agreements to energy policy, and the level of precision, patience, and stakeholder alignment required. It also explores the shift toward more protectionist, country-first strategies and how that is changing global dealmaking.A core theme is that successful negotiation comes down to trust, emotional control, and understanding the other side’s motivations. Practical techniques are shared for staying composed, avoiding escalation, and finding common ground in difficult conversations.  The episode also highlights how cultural differences influence negotiation styles and why adapting language and perspective is key to influencing outcomes. At its core, persuasion is human, and those who can connect, listen, and stay grounded tend to achieve better results. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

David and Jasmine speak with Andy Prisco, a nationally recognized expert in anger, aggression, and violence response who founded Jumpstart Mastery. Andy trains law enforcement, mental health professionals, firefighters, and others in dealing with difficult and dangerous personalities. He shares how years working in psychosocial rehab shaped his practical approach to crisis intervention and what actually works when emotions spike fast. He outlines his structured method, VDSP: Validate, Defer, Suggest, Prompt, explaining why real de-escalation relies on simple, sequential steps. Andy shows how deliberately “starting with V” helps you regulate your own reaction while lowering the other person’s defensiveness. His agreement-first phrasing (“It sounds like…” or “I hear you…”) opens space to reframe the issue and steer someone toward safer behavior with concise suggestions and clear prompts.Andy applies these ideas to litigation, where aggressive opposing counsel and discovery fights can easily trigger anger. He breaks down how outrage disrupts judgment, why self-regulation is built through repetition, and how leading with validation often produces steadier interactions and better outcomes. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

David and Jasmine sit down with Ken Lopez, founder of Persuadius and a veteran litigation consultant known for blending law, psychology, and visual communication. Ken shares how a dislike of law school and an early obsession with computer animation led him to create trial graphics in the mid-1990s, eventually building A2L Consulting and later launching Persuadius to continue that work with a deeper focus on storytelling. Ken outlines what actually persuades in court: simple narratives, clear themes, and stories shaped around a hero’s journey rather than a strict timeline. He explains why fear-based arguments often overpower logic, how the “reptile” strategy works on both sides of the bar, and why bullet-heavy slides undermine comprehension. The conversation wraps with Ken’s take on AI, evolving juror expectations, and why speed, clarity, and strong visuals will matter even more in the years ahead. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Trial lawyer, mediator, and novelist Tim Reuben joins us to talk about persuasion, conflict, and the real-world experience behind his new legal thriller, Tequila. Tim has spent 40+ years in California courts as a civil litigator, mediator, arbitrator, and temporary judge. His experience gives him a clear, practical view of how people behave in high-pressure disputes. Much of our conversation centers on Tequila: a story of a powerful Mexican family, cartel violence, corporate tension, and the moral choices that drive people forward or break them apart. Tim explains how years of legal work shaped the book’s characters and dynamics, why he built a protagonist readers can root for, and how travel and research brought the settings to life. We also touch on how he carved out time to write, why he prefers virtual mediation, and what lawyers often misunderstand about preparing for negotiation versus preparing for court. Connect with Tim Reuben: Tim Reubens WebsiteTequila: A Story of Success, Love & Violence https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Negotiation expert and keynote speaker Tony Perzow joins us to examine why most persuasion relies on fear, and how shifting to what he calls “magnetism” changes everything. Drawing from decades, training teams at Apple, Red Bull, and Rolls-Royce, Tony shows how standard tactics often fuel scarcity and ego instead of connection. He also shares the personal collapse that reshaped his work, losing nearly everything and rebuilding with a new approach. We look at the mindset behind effective negotiation, why fear drives so much behavior, and how it shows up at work and at home. Tony argues that influence doesn’t come from pushing, but from becoming someone others naturally want to agree with. He breaks down his “left road vs. right road” framework, the ego’s role in conflict, and how professionals can quickly recognize fear-based thinking. From reframing persuasion as a human practice to simple ways to choose love over fear, Tony offers grounded, accessible guidance. Whether you’re litigating, managing workplace tension, or aiming to communicate with more ease, this episode positions negotiation as a process built on awareness, calmness, and kindness, not scare tactics. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

John Lowry—expert negotiator and author of Negotiation Made Simple—joins us to break down the real dynamics of deal-making. Drawing from years as a litigator and founder of The Lowry Group, a negotiation collective, John explains why successful negotiation isn’t just about facts or law—it’s about people. We explore the mindset needed to negotiate effectively, how to manage emotion and ego on both sides of the table, and why influence often matters more than information. John also shares why most professionals are negotiating far more often than they realize—yet rarely receive formal training. From anchoring strategies to when to walk away from the table, John offers practical advice grounded in real-world experience. Whether you’re managing a legal case or just trying to get a deal done, this conversation reframes negotiation as a fundamentally human process. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Dr. George Bonanno, professor of psychology at Columbia University and head of the Loss, Trauma, and Emotion Lab, joins us to challenge everything you think you know about trauma and resilience.George shares how his unconventional path—from a troubled youth to working with mentally ill adults—led him to Yale and into a career studying how people respond to loss and extreme stress. His research shows that most people are more resilient than commonly believed, bouncing back from hardship without developing long-term trauma.In this conversation, we dig into why PTSD is often misunderstood, how flexibility (not stoicism) is the real marker of resilience, and why popular traits like “grit” or “toughness” don’t always predict who copes well. George also discusses effective PTSD treatments—from exposure therapy to psychedelics—and how laughter, reappraisal, and even “coping ugly” can be surprisingly powerful tools in recovery.Whether you’re dealing with loss, supporting someone through a tough time, or just trying to understand what real resilience looks like, this episode brings deep insight backed by decades of research. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Melissa Fortunato, a retired FBI special agent with over two decades of service, joins us to unpack what undercover operations and hostage negotiations can teach us about persuasion, human behavior, and trust-building—both in crisis and in daily life. Melissa shares how her background in psychology and counseling shaped her FBI career, taking her from a rape crisis center to undercover roles and high-stakes international negotiations. Walking us through jaw-dropping undercover assignments and negotiations, she describes posing as a bride-to-be in a fake wedding used to arrest international arms dealers and negotiating with the Taliban where the first offer (not hers) was “$30,000 and a goat.” Melissa explains why likability and emotional control are critical assets in any negotiation. She also discusses the differences and overlaps between the FBI and Harvard negotiation frameworks, and why understanding your own emotional triggers is the first step toward influencing others. She reflects on the power of empathy and connection in building rapport, whether it’s with organized crime figures or colleagues on a SWAT team. Whether you’re navigating tough business conversations, managing conflict at work, or just trying to get your teenager to do their homework, Melissa’s insights are sharp, surprising, and grounded in real-world experience. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Scott Tillema, co-founder of The Negotiations Collective and veteran hostage negotiator, joins us to share what crisis negotiations can teach us about influence, emotional control, and communication under pressure. He explains how a curiosity about human behavior led him into law enforcement and how he ultimately trained to handle life-or-death situations on a SWAT team. Scott reveals how empathy, timing, and strong listening skills help de-escalate tense encounters—and why those same skills are essential in business and everyday life. Scott also shares his four-part communication framework featured in his viral TEDx talk and walks us through how he applies negotiation strategies in both high-stakes scenarios and corporate boardrooms. Whether you’re a lawyer, a leader, or just someone navigating tough conversations, Scott’s practical tools can help you become more persuasive and grounded. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

In this episode, Joe Navarro, former FBI special agent and expert in nonverbal communication, shares insights from his unique background. He discusses how his early life in Cuba shaped his understanding of body language and the transition from intuitive observations to structured analysis. Navarro explores the critical role of body language in interviews, negotiations, and daily interactions, offering practical advice to enhance persuasive communication. He delves into cultural sensitivities, individual differences, and the psychology of first impressions and empathy, drawing from his experiences with high-stakes negotiations. Joe also examines the limitations of virtual communication, contrasting it with the evolutionary advantages of face-to-face interactions. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

In this conversation, Jeremy Hurewitz shares his unique journey from journalism to corporate security and describes how his experiences have shaped his understanding of persuasion and influence. He discusses his regular work with lawyers and law firms, explores the importance of active listening, radical empathy, and elicitation in sales, and introduces his “Crawl, Walk, Run” strategy for building client relationships.Jeremy emphasizes that both introverts and extroverts can excel in making connections. He tells us how personal passions can enhance connections and delves into behavioral science’s role in sales and negotiation, offering strategies for de-escalating emotionally charged situations. Our discussion also touches on negotiation tactics in global conflicts, emphasizing the need for emotional intelligence and relationship building in professional settings. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Our guest this week, John Blumberg, author of Persuasion Science for Trial Lawyers, describes how he incorporates developments in psychology, behavioral economics and decision making science into trial presentations.  He describes why information is accepted or rejected by jurors and how decisions by juries can be affected by cognitive overload, mental shortcuts, and biases. He emphasizes the importance of presenting information simply and empowering juries to make their own decisions in an advocates framework, rather avoiding telling jurors what to think in court. John also discusses the concept of false memories and the impact of preconceived beliefs on jury decisions and shares the top three tactics lawyers can use to be more persuasive. https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services