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Revitalization or Rebirth? Andy Sytsma pastors Life in Christ CRC in Salt Lake City and serves part-time with Resonate Global Mission as a local mission leader in the U.S. West, a role he's held since 2017. He and his wife moved to Utah just over three years ago from New Life CRC in Houston, where they'd been fourteen years. Four different pastors told him about the church in Salt Lake before he looked at it. Life in Christ has one daughter church in the Greater Salt Lake area, Community CRC in West Valley, which is Cambodian. Another CRC on the south side closed two years ago, and there used to be churches in Ogden and Brigham City. The local mission leader job is one day a week, eight hours. Resonate works in three areas—church planting, local mission, and global missions—and Andy's is church planting: assessments, coaching, parent church connections, finances, credentialing, immigration help. Resonate has a name for the part he says he's done all his life, Barnabas advocate. Ethnic diaspora pastors arrive with real gifts and no map of the system, and somebody has to answer how you get a parent church and how credentialing works. Then the 10-Year Church Planting Plan, which Synod 2025 mandated after Scott Vander Ploeg called for it from the floor. Tim Sheridan led the work, seven collaborative teams produced about eighty pages, and Andy served on two of them. The plan starts with the gospel and prayer, then discipleship and raising up leaders, then church plants, then a financial base—and on the other end, churches that close and the legacy fund most of them have never heard of. Willy asks what it looks like for a church to close well. Andy's answer is discernment, and he takes it apart: revitalization is halfway down the bell curve and needs more than a refreshed vision; rebirth is letting the church die and using the building and some of the same people to plant. The church he came to in Paterson, New Jersey had seventy or eighty people when it discerned it should die. It was down to fifty or sixty by the time it closed, and forty-five of those stayed for what came next. Jason adds the third option most councils don't know exists. In Houston, Peace Community Church decided it was near the end of its life cycle and instead joined one of the church plants—two congregations, English and Spanish, worshiping together. They sold their building. The back half is Andy's own history. He grew up a missionary kid in Japan, where his father and grandfather served, and watched CRC and OPC missionaries work alongside Reformed Church of Japan evangelists to plant churches. The RCJ is about 150 churches now; the CRC helped start roughly half of them since World War II. His father, Rich Sytsma, just published a book about it called Side by Side. Andy went to Seattle instead, where his wife told a coworker they'd moved to start a church for people who'd given up on church but not on God, and the man asked her what the hell for. Then Paterson, then fourteen years in Texas, where twenty CRCs got planted and his church was the parent for half of them. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 1:31 — Back with Andy Sytsma 2:01 — Life in Christ CRC, Salt Lake City 2:19 — Resonate local mission leader since 2017 2:45 — The other CRCs in Salt Lake, and the ones that closed 3:49 — Four pastors said he'd be a good fit 4:36 — Ordained in '97; his dad and grandpa were missionaries to Japan 4:59 — Called to be a missionary pastor in North America 6:10 — What a local mission leader actually does in eight hours a week 6:48 — Resonate's three areas, and why church planting is its own thing 7:40 — Barnabas advocate 7:48 — Diaspora pastors with the gifts and none of the map 8:34 — Classis Lone Star, and why it's on pause 9:02 — How the role dovetails with the 10-Year Plan 9:20 — Synod 2025's mandate, and Scott Vander Ploeg from the floor 9:42 — Tim Sheridan, seven teams, eighty pages 10:04 — Rooted in the gospel, motivated by prayer 10:30 — The legacy fund nobody knows about 10:52 — Willy: what does it look like for a church to close well? 11:25 — It's a death, and you don't take that lightly 11:36 — "The key word for me is discernment" 11:52 — The Paterson rebirth, and a unanimous council 12:45 — Letting a church die with dignity 13:25 — The Banner's articles on churches that closed well 13:44 — Revitalization or rebirth: what's the difference? 14:52 — The bell curve and the life cycle of a church 15:10 — What a rebirth actually is 15:26 — Most councils think there are only two options 16:16 — Wisdom in a multitude of counselors 16:44 — Their sister church in Salt Lake closed, and some of it was theological 17:15 — Seventy or eighty people, and they still discerned death 17:49 — "I would not rush that process" 18:26 — Embers to a flame 18:51 — Peace Community Church: a merger that wasn't a merger 19:45 — Willy: what do you look at first? 20:14 — Andy punts, and points to Thrive and the Center for Church Renewal 20:51 — The plan needs a whole plethora of coaches 21:43 — A missionary kid in Japan with a front row seat 22:28 — His dad's book, Side by Side 22:52 — The CRC helped start half the Reformed Church of Japan 23:43 — Seattle, New Jersey, Texas, Salt Lake 24:25 — Which one taught him the most? 24:39 — Seattle, and how secular the coasts are 25:11 — "What the hell for? I moved from New York to get away from all that crap" 26:09 — New Jersey, Ezekiel 37, and the power of the Holy Spirit 26:41 — So what does a healthy church look like? 26:56 — Texas, and the beauty of daughtering churches 27:31 — Half the Texas plants from the eighties and nineties shut down 27:52 — Twenty CRCs planted in fourteen years, parent church for half 28:02 — Standing in the right place at the right time 28:53 — Planters from Argentina, Nigeria, the Philippines, Congo 29:33 — Visas, credentialing, and a $30,000 minimum salary 30:09 — "Celebrate what God's doing and try to get out of the way" 30:15 — Outro Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Classis as Ministry, Not Classis as Assembly Part 2 is the argument. Dan De Graff is leaving this podcast to give his time to his classis, so we spend this half on what a classis is actually for, and on what the CRC has to build now that the fight is behind us. Dan's classis, Lake Superior, is enormous—his churches run twelve hours from west to east, and Winnipeg is an eight-hour drive from his house in Baldwin. Classes were drawn as geographic regions back when CRC congregations sat clustered in Dutch enclaves, and that isn't who we are anymore. So Lake Superior has reorganized around leadership development, church planting, and church revitalization, and works regionally instead. Dan makes the distinction that explains most of the unhealthy classes in the denomination: a classis can be an assembly or it can be a ministry. The mandate to do ministry came through synod in the 2010s as a church order change with, in Dan's words, zero conversation about it, and most classes never fleshed it out. Jason adds the view from Classis Wisconsin, which renewed itself and is stronger for it—and the answer he keeps getting from denominational staff when he asks why classes can't handle something: not every classis is as healthy as Wisconsin. That isn't a good answer. Then the ten-year church planting vision, which runs through raising up pastors, planting churches, and closing churches, and every one of those is a classis function. Dan points to a January gathering in Chino, California for classical ministerial leadership teams, because training church planters is a different kind of leadership than pastoring and somebody has to teach it. Some classes have a healthy CMLT. Some have a student fund committee and nothing else. The denomination can plan all it wants: "If the classes and the local folks don't join in that work, then the plan is nothing." Tim Sheridan, who wrote the plan, is coming on the show. On where reformation goes next, Dan says the theological work isn't finished. He asks what we would find if we tested how many CRC churches are genuinely grounded in the Three Forms of Unity, and he is willing to say he was wrong to be lukewarm about the ecclesiology study committee Classis Wisconsin overtured for. Somewhere between seventy and ninety congregations have left, under ten percent, and the water hasn't settled. He is thinking about deconstruction—not of faith now, but of church. Willy calls the last generation a generation of failure and says the only remedy is generations of faithfulness after it, with a lot of game still ahead. Dan talks about the distrust the last generation left behind, and his answer for why 2021 went differently than the 90s: we finally found people we could trust. Jason has heard this whole reformation described as something that grew out of friendship, and he doesn't think that oversimplifies it. Synod feels like a family reunion to him. It ends on building. Luther and Calvin had a point where they stopped fighting and started building, and building looked like raising up pastors and sending them out to plant Reformed churches. Jason's challenge: unapologetically Reformed churches send unapologetically Reformed men to classis, and those classes send them to synod, and the whole thing changes. He describes sitting down for twenty minutes with a journal, going through every student in his youth ministry and his school, and writing down ten names of high schoolers who might be pastors. Dan's version: you may not have to leave your church to help with this. Be on a core team. Be the person who tells someone you see it in him. Willy sends Dan out with the prayer he prays at the end of things. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 1:45 — "I stand by those words" 2:00 — The hardest part of classis ministry is getting other people involved 2:36 — Winnipeg is eight hours away: the size of Classis Lake Superior 3:54 — Classes were built for Dutch enclaves, and that's not who we are now 4:16 — How much can synod tell the churches to do and still get buy-in? 5:28 — "We need more people to do the work. It can't just be the pastors." 5:53 — Grassroots was always the point, and the outflow is stronger classes 7:17 — "Not every classis is as healthy as Classis Wisconsin" 9:27 — Three assemblies, three ministry bodies, and the one that never changes 11:59 — Classis as ministry versus classis as assembly 12:11 — The ten-year church planting vision 12:27 — Tim Sheridan is coming on the podcast 12:59 — Raising up pastors, planting churches, closing churches: all classis work 13:36 — A January gathering in Chino for classical leadership teams 14:20 — Some classes have a student fund committee and nothing else 16:04 — What should churches, pastors, and classes be thinking about now? 17:28 — "We were wrong" about the ecclesiology study committee 18:24 — How many CRC churches are truly grounded in the Three Forms? 19:32 — Seventy to ninety congregations gone, under ten percent 20:24 — Recovery and rebuilding: we're barely out of the first stage 21:37 — Deconstruction, and what might get deconstructed next 22:30 — Online church, coffee-shop church, and why we need the study committee 25:32 — Willy: a generation of failure, and generations of faithfulness after it 26:31 — A post-millennial read on how much game is left 27:38 — A generation that stopped trusting the denomination 29:03 — South Holland, a URC uncle, and why this is in his blood 29:38 — Why this time went differently: we found who we could trust 29:59 — "This whole reformation basically just grew out of friendship" 31:08 — Synod as a family reunion 31:45 — The danger now is little factions rallying their own troops 31:58 — What the Southern Baptist turnaround got right, and what it missed 33:19 — If all we are is a fight, people give up on it 34:21 — "Get in the fight. Get in and build something." 34:50 — When Luther and Calvin stopped fighting and started building 35:17 — Unapologetically Reformed churches, classes, and synod 36:02 — Start with your own life, your family, your church, your town 36:44 — You may not have to leave your church to help with this 37:30 — "Just do something" 37:50 — Twenty minutes, a journal, and ten names of high school students 39:26 — Willy sends Dan out 40:01 — Outro Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

The Work of Building at the Classis Level Dan De Graff is leaving the Messy Reformation, and this is him telling us why. Dan pastors in Baldwin, Wisconsin, and took his first sabbatical this summer—eleven weeks, built around rest and his family, with two and a half weeks camping through the UP and the north shore of Lake Superior. He planned to read nine to twelve books and got through one and three quarters, plus four Tom Clancy novels. His kids told him to watch out for that sin in himself. We spend the first half of this conversation on the sabbatical itself, because a lot of pastors listen to this show and a lot of councils don't know what to do with the request. Dan wrote the policy his own church approved. He turned down a call last year and recognized he was running at himself toward burnout. He quotes Eugene Peterson on Moby Dick: the oarsmen row and the harpooner stands still, because a harpooner who rows won't be ready when it's time to throw. "I just feel like I'm not there right now. I'm in the work of the oarsmen." Then the honest part. Dan came back, worked two hours of office work, and was wiped out. His council chair asked whether he feels supported, and Dan's answer was yes, but "I'm not supporting myself." The habits he promised to build are gone. And that's what's behind the letter he sent us: he doesn't have the time. "I hate that I'm quitting. I think I've quit from four jobs in my life, maybe." What's taking the time is classis. Dan chairs his classis's organizational realignment work, sits on the denominational classis restructuring task force as its reporter, and helped push Lake Superior into three streams—leadership development, church planting, church revitalization. He came off sabbatical, read the ten-year strategic plan, called Willy and said it was the dumbest thing ever. Then he watched Synod, heard the deliberation and the humility, and changed his mind. Jason thanks him on air for the years of work nobody saw, then reads him his own words from 2022: the denomination probably needs to be whittled down, and ideally that means our churches and our classes start doing the work themselves. Dan: "I stand by those words." Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 1:30 — Back from the hiatus, and our guest is Dan De Graff 2:16 — What the sabbatical actually looked like 3:05 — Eleven weeks, rest and family, built around the school year 4:57 — Nine to twelve books planned, one and three quarters read, four Tom Clancy novels 5:42 — Redemption CRC in Chanhassen launches, and he gets to be there 6:36 — How long it takes to wind down from going, going, going 10:35 — Turning down a call, and seeing burnout coming 12:13 — Eugene Peterson, Moby Dick, and the work of the oarsmen 13:26 — How a congregation hears "sabbatical" 13:57 — "Don't leave. Please don't leave us." 16:39 — Two hours of office work and he's done 17:14 — "Praise God for teachers" 18:19 — "Do you feel supported by us?" 19:01 — The three o'clock rule he isn't keeping 20:22 — Augustine: justified in Christ, so we don't have to justify ourselves 20:52 — The letter, and hating that he's quitting 21:16 — Willy on reformation in every sphere, and "well done" 22:10 — So what is taking the time? 23:27 — "This is the mandate of a pastor in the CRC" 24:40 — Chairing the organizational realignment committee 25:16 — "This is the dumbest thing ever. What did the denomination do?" 26:09 — On the classis restructuring task force, drawing a new map 27:32 — "I do not want Zach King's job" 28:43 — Jason thanks Dan publicly for six years of work nobody saw 29:12 — When Dan went on sabbatical, the pastor interviews stopped 30:15 — Dan in 2022: "the denomination probably needs to be whittled down" 31:38 — "I stand by those words" 31:42 — Outro Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Jason records solo with an update on why the show has been quiet and what comes next. The reruns earlier this summer were intentional. We wanted listeners to hear the conversations we were having three, four, and five years ago, before the fights, and to hear the contrast between that tone and the conversations about Synod. Jason's reason for running them: it's easy to move on to the next fight without stopping to look at how good God has been to the Christian Reformed Church. Then the posting stopped, and people noticed. Jason has gotten text messages asking whether everything is okay. The show has been running for almost six years without missing much; the only long gap was the two or three months when he almost died. That's not what's happening this time. Two things happened over the summer. Dan DeGraff's church blessed him with a sabbatical, and he stepped away from his responsibilities at the Messy Reformation for those months. Jason, coming off a year of stepping into two new roles at a church and a school, treated his own summer much the same way. Two of the three of them were out for three months, and then the school year started. The gap turned into a chance to think. For about five years it was clear what the main conversation in the CRC needed to be. Those conversations have largely been wrapped up. There are still plenty of issues, but less agreement about which one is central. So the question the team is sitting with is what role God has for the Messy Reformation in the life of the church right now. Jason is direct about not wanting to have conversations for conversation's sake, or put out episodes for the sake of putting out content. Out of that comes a listener survey. Jason grounds the request in the conviction that the Holy Spirit speaks more clearly through large groups of people, which is why the church has classes and synods. He wants to know who is listening, why, what has been useful, and where listeners think the CRC is going. He also names the shift the denomination has made into a rebuilding phase, and says the podcast likely needs to shift toward it. And he is hoping to bring back the Messy Reformation conference in Wisconsin next summer. He asks for patience and for prayer while the team works this out. Take the listener survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf91m4Obqpue1s6tCchu49CZHTRnrnd3xeTPeFnyuExxus81g/viewform Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 1:55 — The update begins 2:20 — Why the reruns were intentional 3:12 — "He has done great things" 3:35 — The text messages checking in 3:46 — Almost six years, and the one long gap 4:18 — No, the Messy Reformation isn't going away 4:34 — Dan's sabbatical 4:49 — Jason's summer, and two new roles 5:27 — September is nuts 5:47 — Taking a moment to think before diving back in 6:14 — The big conversations have basically been wrapped up 6:41 — What role does the Messy Reformation play now 7:02 — Not content for the sake of content 7:23 — Reformation is never complete 8:20 — A week or two before new episodes 8:43 — The listener survey 9:39 — Whether the podcast needs to shift 10:17 — Why this is a theological question, not a marketing one 11:19 — Getting back to the work 11:37 — Hoping to bring back the conference next summer 12:18 — Be patient with us, be praying for us 13:29 — Substack newsletter 13:52 — Closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Recorded days after Synod 2023. Last of three reruns in the Before We Knew series. Jason says at the outset that he is not getting into the weeds of what happened at synod. He had been processing the week out loud with Rachel, including his own committee's material being tabled to the following year, and her reply was: so you're telling me that reformation is messy. He takes that as the correction. His own impatience keeps him expecting things to move quickly and on his timeline, and they never do. Over the course of the drive he moved from discouraged to encouraged. The middle of the episode is two texts. From 2 Corinthians, which he points out is probably Paul's fourth letter to Corinth rather than his second — the church there was a mess for a long time and no single letter fixed it. He reads 2 Corinthians 1:8-11, on being burdened beyond strength and despairing of life itself so as to rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead, and 2 Corinthians 4:7-11, treasure in jars of clay, afflicted but not crushed. The point he draws from both: if reformation comes to the CRC it will be because God did it, not because anyone was powerful or smart. Then Calvin, writing about Geneva after his expulsion, as he considered returning. Placed in that station by God like a sentinel at his post, from which it would be impiety to move a single foot; not a day passed in which he did not ten times over long for death, and yet the thought of leaving never came. Jason applies it directly: this is not an excuse to leave, it is a call to stay, even when disappointed, even when frustrated, even when out-politicked. He then lists what synod actually accomplished, against the mood people left with. Two vote counts were given, at 72 percent and 68 percent conservative, in line with the year before — and he says plainly that he was wrong, having predicted 60 to 66 percent for months. Synod 2022 was not a fluke and neither was 2023. Confessional status was upheld. Neland Avenue's appeal was not sustained. Classes and the denomination's institutions and agencies were instructed to come into alignment. The majority report on gravamen was about to pass, which he reads as the reason the end of synod became as chaotic as it did. He also names a new unity among conservative delegates, quoting a brother who texted afterward that for the first time in thirty years he had found the kind of brothers he expected to meet in seminary in the nineties. The charge comes last. The work stopped on the one-yard line, everyone knows where the ball is, and the question is who will lead the CRC now. He quotes a text he received — if conservatives leave now, they never wanted to lead anything — and directs it at his own side: stay and lead your congregation, your classis, your denomination. He closes on reward. Hebrews 11 on Moses counting the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt because he was looking ahead to his reward, and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 on light momentary affliction preparing an eternal weight of glory. Good work was done at Synod 2023 and it did not produce the earthly outcome people wanted; it may never. The reward is stored elsewhere. Timestamps: 0:00 — Series intro 1:40 — Original episode begins 1:55 — On naming a podcast The Messy Reformation 2:15 — The drive home from Grand Rapids 2:34 — "So you're telling me that reformation is messy" 3:00 — Impatience, and expecting things on your own timeline 3:39 — Read 2 Corinthians 4:13 — Probably Paul's fourth letter, not his second 4:53 — 2 Corinthians 1: burdened beyond our strength 5:38 — 2 Corinthians 4: treasure in jars of clay 6:25 — We are not a big deal; God brings reformation 7:04 — Calvin on returning to Geneva 7:51 — "A sentinel at his post" 8:14 — "Not a day passed in which I did not ten times over long for death" 9:49 — Not an excuse to leave; a call to stay 10:31 — Staying when you get out-politicked 10:59 — The two vote counts: 72 percent and 68 percent 11:16 — "I have to say that I was wrong" 11:42 — Synod 2022 was not a fluke, and neither was 2023 12:01 — Confessional status upheld, Neland's appeal not sustained 13:01 — The gravamen report that was about to pass 13:40 — A new unity among conservatives 13:56 — "The kinds of brothers I thought I might find in seminary" 15:10 — Stopped on the one-yard line 15:35 — Who is going to lead the CRC? 16:03 — "Stay and lead" 16:26 — "If conservatives leave now, they never wanted to lead anything" 17:03 — Why he is not getting into the weeds this time 17:40 — Eternal reward, not earthly reward 17:52 — Hebrews 11: Moses and the treasures of Egypt 19:22 — "Well done, good and faithful servant" 19:48 — 2 Corinthians 4: we do not lose heart 20:35 — Closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Recorded days after Synod 2022 adjourned. Second of three reruns in the Before We Knew series. Jason and Willy work through the six questions the podcast then put to every delegate it interviewed: your role at synod, what you learned about yourself and the CRC, what encouraged you, what discouraged you, how your congregation is responding, and where we go from here. Willy served as a young adult representative, a role that can speak on the floor but cannot vote or speak for or against a motion. He questions whether the role should exist at all under a Presbyterian polity, and both note how many actual delegates were young that year, most of them conservative. They sat together on advisory committee three, education and candidacy, which handled the seminary and Calvin reports and the candidate interviews, including the two new Calvin Seminary professors, Wilson Cunha in Old Testament and Yudha Thianto in historical theology. Cunha answered directly on the human sexuality report. Thianto said he would abide by whatever synod decided, which left people uneasy. On what encouraged them: orthodoxy prevailed, and it prevailed by margins nobody expected. Four things passed — penal substitutionary atonement, the majority report on human sexuality, confessional status for its teaching, and disciplinary action against Neland Avenue — all by supermajorities in the range of 70 to 75 percent. Jason expected to come home wrecked and did not. He credits the fellowship among delegates and answered prayer, including moments where several delegates arrived at the same conviction separately during deliberations. On what discouraged them: hostility toward orthodoxy in some quarters, arguments from personal testimony treated as equal to Scripture, and conduct on the floor that was out of order on a worldwide livestream. Jason was criticized for repeating the word clarity, and answers the charge that the CRC has made an idol of it: clarity is not about being right, it is what makes pastoral guidance possible. He also names tone deafness, particularly the reasoning that professors should be asked only whether they will abide by synod's decisions rather than what they believe, and traces it to the distance between Grand Rapids and the rest of the denomination. Willy answers with Luther at the Diet of Worms on conscience captive to the word of God. The hardest section is about their own side. Off social media all week, Jason came home to find not only anger from those who wanted an affirming outcome, which he expected, but conservatives who were angry that synod had not gone far enough. Willy answers that watching a livestream is not the same as reading the room. Jason argues from church revitalization: this was the first disciplinary action against a congregation in over twenty years, small wins come before large ones, and nobody thought the work was finished after one synod. They also read the closest vote of the week, the defeated catechism footnote at about 51 percent, as a matter of people not having had time to think it through beforehand. On congregations: Willy's church was glad of the results and worried about a split, and he tells them that separation may be inevitable when both sides believe the gospel is at stake. Jason reads an email from an orthodox pastor who got everything he hoped for from synod and now has a congregation in turmoil, with members asking whether they can still belong. Both argue for giving churches time to repent before stronger action, and Jason ties it to Hebrews 12 — discipline is not designed to remove someone from the family. He mentions the Neland elder who said, with a smile, that synod would have to kick them out. They close on where to go from here. Willy names the three marks of the true church: preaching, sacraments, discipline. Jason wants the in loco committee under the new general secretary held to its work, and a warning that Paul Vander Klay's prediction may hold — that some will leave from the left and some conservatives from the right. His closing word is to the conservatives: this is step one, stay. Timestamps: 0:00 — Series intro 1:43 — Original episode begins 3:02 — The six questions asked of every delegate 4:03 — Willy's role as a young adult representative, and whether it should exist 9:52 — Advisory committee three: education and candidacy 13:49 — Interviewing the new professors: Wilson Cunha 18:30 — Yudha Thianto's answer on the human sexuality report 20:11 — What encouraged them: orthodoxy prevailed 23:51 — Four supermajority votes 25:55 — Answered prayer, and the Spirit at work among delegates 29:06 — Disagreeing agreeably: 95 percent of it went well 31:06 — What discouraged them: hostility toward orthodoxy 34:03 — "The clarity guy," and whether clarity is an idol 35:13 — Tone deafness, and the Grand Rapids echo chamber 38:47 — Luther at the Diet of Worms 39:25 — The social media moratorium, and what came after 40:32 — Conservatives angry that synod did not go far enough 41:40 — Willy: watching a livestream is not reading the room 44:02 — Thinking like a church revitalizer: step one of many 48:46 — The false accusation that orthodox delegates know no one affected 50:49 — The catechism footnote, defeated 51 to 49 53:57 — How the congregations are responding 57:24 — "Separation, I believe, is inevitable" 58:30 — The email from a pastor who won and now has a mess 61:14 — Giving churches room to repent 62:26 — Quoted in the Banner, and Hebrews 12 on discipline 63:45 — The Neland elder: "You're going to have to kick us out" 64:54 — The marks of the true church 66:59 — Holding the in loco committee to its work 67:33 — "Don't leave. Stick with us." Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Recorded in May 2022, weeks before Synod 2022. First of three reruns in the Before We Knew series, pulled from the years before the CRCNA's direction was settled. A solo episode. Jason works through the fear of the Pharisees — Matthew 21:45-46, Mark 11:18, Luke 22:1-2 — where the religious leaders intend to arrest and kill Jesus and hold back because they fear the crowds. He applies it to the delegates heading to synod, alongside 1 Corinthians 16:13: be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. He then describes his own fear. He shakes when he speaks up in a group. A year or two into ministry as a youth pastor, he sat through a contentious congregational meeting, disagreed with where it was going, and said nothing, because he was afraid of what speaking would cost his position and his relationships. He drove home resolved never to do it again. The definition of courage follows: not the absence of fear, but fearing God more than men and moving forward anyway. The second half takes up the arguments circulating before synod — fear of damage, fear of disunity, fear of a rash decision. He names delay as a tactic rather than caution, argues that smaller forces stretch out a fight when they know the numbers are against them, and holds that the majority in the pews were orthodox on sexuality. He cites the Chesterton line that a soldier fights for what is behind him rather than against what is in front of him, and lists what he longs for: a denomination he is not ashamed of, one that disciplines false teaching, that hires people worth being excited about, that is known for standing firm. He closes on 1 Corinthians 15:10 — Paul working harder than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God — and argues that courage comes through faith rather than from within. The episode ends with Acts 20:22-24 adapted to synod: going constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what waits, counting his life of no value if only he may finish the course. Timestamps: 0:00 — Series intro: why we are running these 1:55 — Original episode begins: one odd week before Synod 2022 2:22 — The fear of the Pharisees 2:39 — Matthew 21, Mark 11, Luke 22 4:07 — 1 Corinthians 16:13: be watchful, stand firm 4:30 — "I'm trembling, I'm shaking" 5:06 — The congregational meeting he stayed silent in 5:57 — What courage actually is 7:05 — "Fear God more than you fear men" 8:27 — Delay as a tactic 8:42 — How smaller forces beat larger ones 10:26 — The Chesterton line 11:44 — "I long for the day": what the CRC could be 13:08 — Telling the story of how reformation happened 14:43 — Courage comes from the Lord, not from within 15:07 — 1 Corinthians 15:10 16:31 — Acts 20 adapted to synod 17:42 — Closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

If Synod's new ten-year church-planting vision is going to mean anything, it has to land somewhere ordinary: in one Christian noticing another. Part 2 of our conversation with Ralph Wigboldus starts exactly there. Asked how a small, tired congregation actually begins to raise up leaders, Ralph is refreshingly concrete. Stop living in silos. Don't be afraid to cross the room and talk to someone thirty or forty years younger than you. Discipleship happens with people you know. Willy grounds it in his own story, and Ralph answers with a testimony that shows why he's Reformed to the bone: after a season of rebellion, angry at God, others could have written him off, but it was God who held on to me, not the other way around. From there the conversation turns to two of Synod's harder debates, the WCRC decision and the question of whether a digital-only ministry is a church, and to Ralph's conviction that in an anxious, disconnected world the church's calling is to draw people out to embodied community. What carries the episode is why Ralph came home so full. After everything, he's still very much in love with this denomination. Synod felt like a family reunion. He closes with a charge for a hardening culture: in Canada a new law could brand Scripture as hate speech, and he and his co-pastor won't turn off the livestream to stay safe. Christ's work is not near finished, so speak boldly and share the gospel in love. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro: Calvin's Geneva and raising up leaders 2:52 — "It's on us": the denomination's charge comes home 3:30 — What can small local churches actually do? 4:52 — "Cross the room": discipleship with people you know 5:20 — Willy on the mentors who poured into him 7:34 — "It's not about what's there for you" 8:46 — Raising up leaders isn't just the pastor's job 10:41 — Don't write people off for a few rough edges 11:05 — "God held on to me": Ralph's testimony and why he's Reformed 13:40 — Anything else from Synod? The harder debates 13:59 — The WCRC decision and the scolding that followed 15:45 — Why a digital-only ministry isn't a church 17:11 — What Ralph learned about himself: still in love with the CRC 21:08 — Synod as a family reunion 23:47 — Rejoicing over the virtual-church decision 24:52 — First-time delegates and a more engaged church 25:57 — The youth advisors who impressed everyone 27:09 — Looking ahead to Synod 2027 29:53 — Closing words for a growing audience 30:44 — Bill C-9 and the courage to speak boldly Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Ralph Wigboldus has been in the boiling water longer than most of us. A senior pastor in Woodstock, Ontario, and a six-year veteran of the Council of Delegates, he came to Synod 2026 tired and half-hoping someone else would carry the load. He left overjoyed. In Part 1 of our conversation, Ralph gives American listeners something they rarely hear clearly: the Canadian side of the last decade, from the fight over financial autonomy to the push for a separate, more progressive denomination that finally fell flat. This is the encouraging episode. Where 2022 and 2023 felt like trench warfare, Ralph describes a Synod marked by mutual love and respect, disagreement handled with grace. He walks us through his advisory committee's work on Resonate's ten-year church-planting plan and what struck him most: this wasn't pitched as a gimmick to arrest decline, but as the plain mission of the church, regardless of the numbers. Under it all runs the refrain we've carried for two years now: the CRC is moving out of the fight stage of this Reformation and into the build stage. Ralph reaches back to the Reformation itself, and to Calvin's Geneva as a nursery for church planters, to make the point. By the end the denominational vision has come home to a single sentence: it's on us. Part 1 leaves us right on the edge of the practical question we take up next. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro 2:15 — Meet Ralph Wigboldus: Woodstock, Ontario, and a ministry built on team 3:06 — Why team ministry has been a lifelong blessing 3:38 — Calvin Seminary and a through-and-through CRC identity 4:49 — "I have yet to meet a pastor good at both preaching and pastoring" 7:11 — Six years on the Council of Delegates: the Canadian story 10:31 — The overture to separate, and why it fell flat 11:14 — Disaffiliation, independence, and grieving the losses 17:27 — The peace that came on the other side 17:43 — Ralph's overall thoughts on Synod 2026 18:28 — "We've turned a corner" 22:27 — Serving as a committee reporter 24:36 — Committee 6: Missions and Congregations 24:56 — Resonate's ten-year church-planting plan 26:48 — Excitement on the floor: the mission of the church 29:04 — From the fight stage to the build stage 30:19 — The URC, the Reformation, and churches by another name 31:12 — Calvin's Geneva as a church-planting nursery 32:05 — "It's on us": bringing it home to the local church Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

In the second half of our post-Synod conversation, Zack Flipse and Jason move from how Synod 2026 felt to what it means for the work ahead. There's encouragement, but there are also some concerns. The biggest thread here is a worry both share: the CRC has an exciting church planting vision, but plant churches poorly and you can do damage to the denomination. Reformation isn't just about doing more; it's about doing it in a way that fits our ecclesiology. That's why Zack keeps half-joking that we need a study committee on ecclesiology, and why he's unembarrassed to say it: "I want to be part of a denomination that's doing theology." From there the conversation ranges widely. They name the three streams of the CRC—confessionalist, pietist, transformationalist—and make the case that the church is stronger for holding all three. They look ahead to the Christian nationalism study report, arguing the Dutch Reformed tradition is uniquely equipped to speak here, with Kuyper and Bavinck in our own lineage—so long as we actually do the theology rather than just point back to it. And they return to Jason's hobby horse since day one: a denomination is healthy when local churches are engaged, not when they outsource their convictions to Grand Rapids. Zack shares the kids' Heidelberg Catechism project he makes with his daughters—question one, "What gives you comfort? That I belong to Jesus"—because instead of complaining that the resource didn't exist, he decided to build it. Then Jason gives him the final word, and Zack delivers the line that names the whole vision: "Figure out what you can do to plant a church so that more people worship Jesus tomorrow than worship Him today. Let's plant some churches." Timestamps: 0:00 — Recap: naming gifts and raising up leaders 2:15 — Satellite options and the uneasiness around multi-site churches 4:01 — The ecclesiology study committee that didn't pass 5:07 — "I want to be part of a denomination that's doing theology" 6:39 — Planting churches well: the danger of doing it poorly 7:55 — Discouragements: pressure to skip process 9:22 — "We found out in 2022": differences in how we read Scripture 10:35 — The three minds: confessionalist, pietist, transformationalist 12:04 — The Christian nationalism study report and our tradition 12:39 — Why the Dutch Reformed are uniquely equipped: Kuyper and Bavinck 21:30 — A healthy denomination means local churches engaged 23:03 — An overture on categories for church membership 23:38 — Unified worship vs. faithful contextualization 26:51 — Zack's kids' Heidelberg Catechism on YouTube 30:48 — The Little Heidelberg Catechism and resourcing parents 31:44 — Final word: let's plant some churches Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Zack Flipse walked into Synod 2026 as a first-time delegate and came home energized. For anyone who remembers the synods of 2022 and 2023—the walkouts, the exhaustion, the open question of whether the CRCNA would survive—that's no small thing. In this first half of our post-Synod conversation, Zack and Jason compare notes across a few short but seismic years: from a denomination that felt like it might die to one that is, in Zack's words, finally "rowing in the same direction." This is the encouraging episode. Zack served on the Committee for Education and Candidacy, and he walks us through the reports, the new seminary professor, and the candidates—double last year's number—who got a standing ovation on the floor. The two of them dig into the slow, hard work of rebuilding trust in institutions, why low trust isn't a uniquely CRC problem, and the sober math behind the 150-churches-in-three-years vision: a pastor shortage that demands we get serious about raising up leaders. What carries the episode is Zack's testimony of belonging. After years of having to qualify what he meant by "Christian Reformed," he sat on the floor of Synod and realized he didn't have to anymore. "I belong in my own denomination. I love this." It's a window into what reformation actually feels like when it starts to take hold—not a victory lap, but a sigh of relief and a turn toward the work ahead. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro: post-Synod interviews with delegates, Zack returns 2:35 — How are you feeling after Synod? Coming home energized 3:14 — A first-time delegate's glowing testimony 3:54 — Prep, the 400-page agenda, and the website struggle 5:47 — Trust in institutions: owning the gossip, the broader culture 9:50 — The Committee for Education and Candidacy and the college reports 11:40 — A new seminary professor with a heart for boots-on-the-ground ministry 14:19 — Double the candidates, and 80% of churches giving ministry shares 16:19 — Standing ovations and the question of encouragement 17:26 — Moved to tears: "I belong in my own denomination" 22:57 — The 2023 contrast: when Jason wept fearing the CRC would die 24:38 — East or west, not left or right: arguing about how, not where 26:38 — The church planting vision and a 10-year plan 29:47 — Raising up leaders: commissioned pastors and the LDN 32:48 — The hard math: 350 new pastors and classes of a hundred 34:55 — Naming gifts and the on-ramps into ministry Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Part two of the recap opens with a quieter decision that says a lot: removing Our World Belongs to God from the Covenant for Office Bearers. As Willy explains, the real debate wasn't about the contemporary testimony's merits but about what an office bearer should be bound to — and Synod's answer was the ecumenical creeds and the Reformed confessions, nothing added. It's one more thread in a confessionalist turn that ran through the whole week, captured by a transformationalist on the floor who joked that the confessionalists are in the driver's seat, the pietists are riding shotgun, and the transformationalists are in the back seat — and said he was okay with that. From there Jason and Willy celebrate two structural decisions: keeping Sunday as a real Sabbath in the middle of Synod, and decisively rejecting biennial synods. Willy, who sits on the COD and voted against the biennial proposal, says the lopsided voice vote shows the task force is out of touch with the denomination. Jason makes the deeper case for meeting yearly — this year delegates actually changed their votes mid-debate, which is what real deliberation looks like and exactly what gets lost when a church only gathers every two years. The heart of the episode is the unanimously adopted ten-year church planting vision and the Saturday-night State of the Church address that set it up. Jason, no reliable fan of Zach King, offers a genuine correction: King earned his standing ovation, naming a pivot from a season of fighting into a season of building — an Antioch moment of discipleship, leadership development, and healthy church planting. The goal is concrete and audacious: 150 new churches in five years, about three per classis. Both hosts ground it in the pastor shortage and the hard work of legacy churches, but the encouragement is unmistakable. Double the candidates showed up this year. Young confessional men are coming. So stop waiting on the denomination, Jason says — do the work, grassroots. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro: the gospel covers this synod 2:07 — Removing Our World Belongs to God from the Covenant for Office Bearers 4:07 — Doubling down on confessional identity: the driver's-seat line 6:29 — Decisions about Synod: the days and biennial synods 7:20 — Keeping the Sabbath and rejecting biennial synods 11:02 — The big theme: the ten-year church planting vision 11:51 — Zach King's State of the Church address and a standing ovation 13:10 — An Antioch moment: from fighting to building 15:03 — 150 churches in five years; three per classis 18:21 — The pastor shortage, leadership development, and legacy churches 22:24 — Double the candidates: young men returning to the CRC 22:54 — Post-millennialism banter 23:41 — Final thoughts: happy warriors and grassroots work Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Jason and Willy are back with their annual post-Synod recap, and the mood is different than it used to be. This isn't a denomination bracing for a fight; it's one taking stock of how far it has come. Willy is relatively satisfied with Synod 2026 — a give-and-take week with real wins and real losses — and Jason agrees, framing his disappointments as wisdom calls rather than make-or-break ones. The throughline this year, borrowing a line from Derek Buikema, was a willingness to stop deferring everything to process and just make decisions now. The biggest win is the virtual church decision. After leaving the door cracked last year, Synod acceded to the Atlantic Northeast overture and declared plainly that a church meeting exclusively online is not a true church — rooted in Acts and the Belgic Confession, and framed well by Chad Steenwyk as chair. The biggest loss is the Classis Wisconsin overture for a study committee on Reformed ecclesiology, which failed 106 to 71. Jason's frustration isn't the defeat but the reason: the whole debate collapsed into a conversation about money and pragmatism — the very disease the overture was trying to treat. His verdict on the leading floor argument is unprintable-adjacent: it sounds good, but it's crap. The episode closes on the two-year Christian nationalism study committee. Both hosts are skeptical, not because the issue is unimportant but because nobody can define the term — a point Al Mohler recently made by calling it a rebrand of "fundamentalist." Jason is genuinely thankful Synod refused the overture's proposed definition, but he expects two years of study to produce a definition that helps no one. What stings most is the contrast: a committee for the buzzword, none for the root issue. So the Messy Reformation will do the ecclesiology work itself — grassroots. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro and overall thoughts on Synod 2026 3:14 — Willy: relatively satisfied; a give-and-take synod 5:22 — "We're just going to do it now": Synod's new decisiveness 6:35 — The virtual church decision: online-only is not a true church 9:18 — Digital church versus digital ministry 9:35 — The Classis Wisconsin ecclesiology overture fails, 106 to 71 13:21 — Pragmatism on the floor: "his argument sounds good, but it's crap" 14:05 — The cracked-foundation analogy and planting Reformed churches 16:03 — An invitation to fund Reformed ecclesiology work 16:44 — The Christian nationalism study committee 18:19 — Al Mohler: a rebrand of "fundamentalist" 20:08 — Thankful Synod didn't adopt the proposed definition 21:12 — Chasing a ghost: two years, and a committee for the buzzword but not the root Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Chris Ganski and Derek Buikema join Jason to talk about the overture out of Classis Wisconsin to Synod 2026 calling for a study committee on the nature of the church. It is not a flashy overture. It is not addressing a fight. But Chris and Derek argue it might be the most important overture on the floor — because every other ecclesiastical conversation in the denomination right now is happening at one or two levels of abstraction away from a question we have quietly stopped asking out loud: what is a church? They trace the overture back through ten years of the company-of-pastors conversations, name the drift of American pragmatism through CRC life, and make the case that a generation has grown up assuming everyone knew what a church was — and now nobody is sure. The conversation does not stay in diagnosis. Chris keeps the bar for the study committee low and the vision serious: force a theological conversation. Recover Calvin's deep ecclesiology — election, the church as creature of the Word, the sacraments, the ministry of the Word. Derek's contribution is to remind the denomination what study committees actually do. They frame conversations. Children at the Lord's Table did. Human Sexuality did. A serious, theological study committee on the church will do the same — without requiring a controversy to do it. The pivot of the episode is Derek's image: a faithful pastor knows when to fight and when to garden. The CRC has been fighting for a decade. It is past time to also garden. Then Chris turns to Calvin as a model. Calvin was a refugee. He fled France at twenty-five, landed in Geneva, and was forever an outsider. That experience shaped his ecclesiology. He invented the consistory. He gave the modern diaconate its shape. He sent church planters into France for forty years. Reformed mission did not come out of pragmatism. It came out of a refugee's deep theology of what the church is. Chris closes with a pastoral word for tired pastors and anxious elders: the church is founded in God's election. Whether the church survives is not finally on us. Believe that. Lead from that. That is what reformation looks like. Timestamps: 0:00 — Introduction 3:19 — Origin of the overture: ten years of the company of pastors 5:01 — Why a study committee, not another task force 6:27 — Synod 2025 itself asked for this work 6:55 — How we got here: the drift toward American pragmatism 9:22 — Calvin, Bavinck, Kuyper — the resources we have forgotten 9:57 — John Cooper: pragmatic arguments used to lose at Synod 11:17 — Nine Marks in New England and the hunger for ecclesiology 14:22 — A low bar: just force a theological conversation 16:28 — Virtual communion, virtual baptism, and forgetting the sacraments 18:44 — The faithful doing flows from the faithful being 22:14 — Church vs ministry: when church planting becomes community development 26:36 — The catechism caricature: living theology, not rote memorization 29:52 — Tradition vs traditionalism (Pelikan) 31:05 — Ezekiel by the Chebar: church without land, king, or temple 33:26 — Sexuality crisis revealed the deeper unrootedness 35:43 — How a study committee actually shapes a denomination 41:48 — From fighting phase to building phase 42:21 — Knowing when to fight and when to garden 44:13 — Struggling churches default to pragmatism 45:00 — Calvin the refugee: an exilic ecclesiology that planted churches 47:43 — Final word: the church is founded in God's election Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Jason and Dan DeGraff kick off the Messy Reformation's annual Synod coverage with a breakdown of the convening session of Synod 2026. The convening session is mostly a warm-up — an hour of tech troubleshooting and a chance for delegates to find their footing before the real work begins. But it ends with the one piece of business that, year after year, tells you more about where Synod is headed than almost anything else: the election of officers. Chad Steenwyk is president. Derek Buikema is vice president. Jose Reyes is first clerk. Dave Tenclay is second clerk. Jason's point is not the names themselves but what it means that none of these names is a surprise. Four years ago, the idea that a leader of the Abide Project could be elected president of Synod would have been unthinkable — anyone associated with Abide carried what Jason calls the black mark of the plague. Now it just makes sense. That, he argues, is the single most important thing this episode is about: the fog of reformation makes it easy to forget how far the CRC has actually moved. Dan brings the numbers and the texture. Over 100 new delegates this year — close to 58 percent of the floor — which is roughly the pattern of the last several synods. He and Jason talk about why the convening session matters even when it looks like nothing happens, why around 25 absent delegates is worth a gentle rebuke, and what it means that the delegates got behind strong confessional leaders right out of the gate. They engage Paul VanderKlay's recent video predicting that the pendulum has swung about as far as it will, and Jason pushes back: he thinks Synod is increasingly willing to take the reins on things like the Calvin Seminary presidency precisely because trust in the institution has been lost. The conversation closes on demographics that complicate any simple read — the confessional fire Jason has seen among Korean, Hispanic, and Venezuelan delegates, the talk of a new Classis Lone Star out of Hispanic church plants in Texas, and the continued decline in women delegates. The hosts commit to a few coverage episodes during Synod rather than daily updates, and Jason ends where the podcast always ends: this is Christ's church, he bought it with his blood, so keep watch on your life and doctrine and keep fighting the good fight in this messy reformation. Timestamps: 0:00 — Intro and welcome 2:00 — Why we always cover the convening session 3:30 — The tech struggles of an online convening session 5:00 — Why the officer elections signal where Synod is headed 5:30 — Chad Steenwyk elected president 7:00 — Chad and the fallout of 2023 9:00 — The shift: an Abide leader as president would have been unthinkable 11:00 — The fog of reformation: forgetting how far we've come 13:00 — Three officers have been on this podcast 15:00 — The new leaders versus the old institutional names 16:30 — Derek Buikema elected vice president 19:00 — Jose Reyes elected first clerk 21:00 — Dave Tenclay elected second clerk 24:00 — Over 100 new delegates: what it means 28:00 — Preparing first-time delegates 31:00 — Around 25 absent delegates and why the convening session matters 34:00 — Paul VanderKlay's video and the confessional trajectory 37:00 — Synod taking the reins and the Calvin Seminary overture 40:00 — Ethnic minorities and the confessional fire 43:00 — Classis Lone Star and a more confessional CRC 45:00 — Women delegates and the officer board 47:00 — Coverage plans and closing Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer