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Four white mainline Protestant pastors are running for Congress this year. A generation ago, that would have been hard to imagine. Could it spark a revival for a tradition many have written off? In this episode of Church and Main, Dennis Sanders talks with Daniel K. Williams, a historian of American religion and politics at Ashland University in Ohio.  The conversation stems from Williams’ Substack article, where he argues that the midterms could be “an important first step in rehabilitating the cultural image of mainline Protestantism for a younger generation of progressives.” Dennis and Williams look at why white mainline pastors have mostly stayed out of electoral politics, why that may be changing now, and what it could mean for the pews. In This Episode: [10:03] Why religious traditions rarely disappear and instead reinvent themselves, and why mainline decline isn’t a straight line to collapse [16:48] Why pastors stayed out of office: congregations that are politically divided, and a “prophetic voice” tradition wary of getting cozy with power [21:26] What changed: the Trump era, the denominational splits of the 2010s, and a Democratic Party more open to faith [28:17] Whether denominations will sort politically the way the parties have, and the challenge of attracting younger members [33:10] Adam Hamilton and the surprising idea of a progressive mainline megachurch [36:04] Which Pew political groups the mainline might be uniquely poised to welcome, from loyal liberals to Republicans uneasy with the party’s direction [40:08] How prominent candidates change the public image of a tradition, with Jimmy Carter and J.D. Vance as examples, and the possible return of a vocal religious left [45:38] What white mainline pastors can learn from the Black church about preaching prophetically while doing the work of governing, including Raphael Warnock and John Lewis Links Daniel K. Williams’ Substack article on the midterms and the mainline Faith leaders on the ballot: 12 races to watch from Religion News Service   Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

Dennis talks with psychologist Richard Beck about his latest book, The Book of Love. Richard is a professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University and a Senior Fellow of the Saunders Center for Joy and Human Flourishing. The book weaves Richard’s own faith journey together with the Hebrew Scriptures, the Gospels, and the early church. The conversation asks what it looks like to read Scripture through the lens of love, and why that is so hard when anxiety about “getting it wrong” sits underneath so many biblical arguments. Richard writes for both conservatives and progressives, so listeners on either side will probably hear something they like and something they don’t.   In This Episode: Grace for bad readers of Scripture (14:46). We expect to reach heaven as sinners, so why would God be graceless toward our biblical misinterpretations? Dennis and Richard discuss extending grace to those who read differently, on both sides. The cross as a theophany of love (18:50). Richard argues against penal substitutionary atonement while pushing back on a progressive view that skips over the cross. The cross, he says, delivers two messages at once, judgment on human sin and love from the foundation of the world, and the parable of the prodigal son holds both. Prophetic self-criticism (30:32). Israel put its own worst failures into Scripture. Richard says that courage is stunning, and wonders where we have lost it, since most prophetic speech is aimed at God’s own people. Acts 10 and Acts 15 (34:59). Richard connects Peter’s vision and the Jerusalem council to his first book, Unclean, and to the psychology of purity and disgust. He draws on the Wesleyan quadrilateral to show how experience can shape how we read, noting that at the council “the stories won that day.” Fruits of the Spirit as coordinates (49:18). Discernment about where God is at work is not vague, Richard says, and it cuts both ways. He points to Paul’s call to let judgment begin with the house of God and says, “You are the one being evaluated here. Stop evaluating other people.” The current moment (53:45). Richard offers a critique for each side of the political aisle. For the Christian right, he points to divine solidarity with the oppressed, the teachings of Jesus, and pluralism as a sign of the kingdom. For the progressive side, he points to the risks of reducing Scripture to social justice and the need for forgiveness, reconciliation, and hope. Links The Book of Love by Richard Beck Richard’s Substack, Experimental Theology Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

Saying “Jesus is Lord” can sound like a harmless phrase, but in the Roman Empire, where Caesar was Lord, it was a radical claim. Today, the claim still has rivals, and political and cultural tribes all want our allegiance. Dennis talks with Presbyterian pastor Landon Whitsitt about his book Divided Allegiance. Landon is the pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church in Oklahoma City and a former vice moderator of the 219th General Assembly of the PC(USA). He is also the author of Make-Believe, Zombie Jesus, The Descending God, Afraid of Everything, Open Source Church, and Theology of Art. The conversation looks at why we keep dividing our loyalty between God and other powers, and what faithfulness looks like when every side wants to claim Jesus. Landon pairs the prophet Micah with the Barmen Declaration, the confession written against the Nazi regime. His point is that this struggle is not new to our moment. It is what the people of God have always faced. In this episode: The biblical context of Micah and its relevance today The significance of the Barman Declaration in Christian ethics The challenge of divided loyalties in contemporary faith The role of confession and repentance in spiritual integrity The influence of Reformed theology on understanding God's sovereignty The church's prophetic role in social justice and injustice The impact of Christian nationalism on faith and allegiance Practical steps for pastors and congregations to remain faithful Resources: Landon’s Substack: landonwhitsitt.substack.com/ Landon’s website: LandonWhitsitt.com Westminster Presbyterian Church, Oklahoma City (sermons): wpcokc.org Divided Allegiance by Landon Whitsitt   Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

In John 14, Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus gives him a pained look and answers, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." If we want to know who God is, we look to Jesus, and when we do, we find a vulnerable God. Pastor and theologian Kenneth Tanner joins Dennis to talk about his new book, Vulnerable God: How Jesus Upends Our Assumptions About God and Shows Us How to Be Human. Tanner argues that Jesus doesn't blend our ideas of God with our ideas of humanity. Instead, Jesus interrogates both. In his words, "Jesus is the one who shows us what power even is." That means power looks like silence in the womb, helplessness in a manger, and surrender on a cross, not coercion or force. In this episode: Tanner's journey from a Pentecostal upbringing in Orlando through the charismatic movement to a liturgical church, the Book of Common Prayer, and weekly Eucharist Why the Word who spoke the cosmos into being accepts silence in the womb A fresh look at the three temptations in the wilderness as a test about power What the Black church's witness teaches about a God who is with us in suffering Resisting cynicism and false stories about God and ourselves, especially on social media Resources: Substack - https://kennethtanner.substack.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kenntanner/ Vulnerable God Book   Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

What if the church's obsession with growth is just modern-day Baal worship? Andrew Root returns to the podcast to discuss his new book Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic). Root — Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary — unpacks how the pressure to grow (whether through innovation or identity affirmation) mirrors ancient Israel's turn to fertility gods, and what it might mean instead to trust a God who meets us in weakness rather than escalation. In This Episode [0:24] Intro — Facebook-as-salvation in the 2000s, LGBTQ inclusion in mainline churches, and Flint, Michigan as parallel stories of hoping something will bring back “the good old days” [4:44] What led Root to write the book — a recurring church-growth conversation and an offhand comment about “fertility gods” that became the whole project [7:15] Baal as a fertility god, and how capital (financial, social, cultural) functions the same way for us today [9:27] The real question underneath growth anxiety — do we actually trust God? [9:53] Golden-era memory in mainline Protestantism (and Flint) as a parallel to Israel longing for Solomon’s era [15:37] The two camps inside every denomination — techno-optimists and identitarians — and why Root thinks both run on the same escalatory, capitalist logic [23:36] “We’re all prosperity preachers now” — willing to take on poverty now only to cash out later [31:35] Why Protestants have neglected Mary, and Luther’s reading of her as the true prophet [34:16] Jezebel reframed — not a sexual temptress but “the great economist” importing growth theory into Israel [38:12] The Magnificat as confession, not just judgment on others [41:09] A widower’s story on a Viking cruise — what he was actually grateful for from his church [45:35] Root’s word to pastors and small congregations dealing with anxiety about decline [50:21] Where to find Andrew Root’s work — andrewroot.org   Resources Andrew Root's website: andrewroot.org Book: Baal and the Gods of More — Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic) Ministry in a Secular Age Podcast: https://www.andrewroot.org/podcast/   Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

We tend to think of democracy in terms of institutions and procedures — voting, the Supreme Court, Congress. But what if it actually depends on something less visible: the everyday virtues that make shared life with people we didn't choose possible at all? Dennis talks with Jason Edwards, senior pastor of Second Baptist Church in Liberty, Missouri, about his Baptist News Global essay on democracy as a moral practice, sparked by a well-known 2008 moment when Senator John McCain corrected a supporter's false claim about Barack Obama. The conversation moves from there into how churches form — or fail to form — people capable of living alongside those they disagree with, including a candid look at emotional health as part of discipleship. They also touch on Jason's forthcoming book, At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us, built around the image of a house with many windows — each theory of the atonement offering a true but partial glimpse of something too vast to fully see. In this episode: Why Jason calls democracy "a moral practice" rather than just a system The McCain moment that shaped his thinking How churches can cultivate — or undermine — emotional maturity A preview of At Home with God and its "house with many windows" approach to atonement Links: Jason's essay, "Democracy as a moral practice, not just a system" (Baptist News Global) Jason G. Edwards on Substack At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us (IVP, November 2026) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

We've all heard of Trump Derangement Syndrome — the caricature of the uber-progressive who can't stop talking about the president. But what about the opposite version? The diehard loyalist who dismisses any criticism of Trump as irrational, even when it comes from people who share their faith? This week, Corey Nathan returns to talk about his  recent essay in The Dispatch titled "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey digs into what it looks like when people you love — friends, pastors, family — become what Corey calls "morally and epistemically unavailable." Drawing on an Al-Anon phrase that anchors his essay, "didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it," Corey wrestles with how far that logic should go when it comes to loved ones who've become unwavering Trump loyalists. Links: Corey's essay in The Dispatch: "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey's podcast: politicsandreligion.us Episode 78: Finding God in the Mundane with Corey Nathan Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

Dennis talks with Australian theologian Graham Joseph Hill about his new book, Ten Movements of the Jesus Way: Shifting from Worldly Self-Interest to Radical Discipleship. They discuss Graham's journey from a legalistic upbringing to planting his first church at 19, the danger of the "sovereign self," and moving past Jesus-as-slogan or Jesus-as-guru toward a third way rooted in the Gospels. Graham shares small, everyday practices of discipleship from his own church community and reflects on grace, imperfect community, and what the Jesus way offers a polarized culture. Shownotes: Ten Movements of the Jesus Way (Book) Graham Joseph Hill’s website Graham Joseph Hill Podcast Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

When JD Vance accused "in this house we believe" yard signs of butchering the Nicene Creed, Methodist pastor Teer Hardy started wondering what creeds are actually for. That question turned into an essay — and this conversation. Teer Hardy, pastor of Trinity United Methodist Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and co-host of the Crackers and Grape Juice podcast, returns to discuss his piece "Creeds Are Not Yard Signs." Shownotes: The Creeds Are Not Yard Signs The Body of Christ in a Polarized Culture with Teer Hardy | Episode 222   Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

Dennis sits down with Jason Swan Clark, theologian, spiritual director, and director of the London Centre for Spiritual Direction, to unpack his article "How Inclusive Church Excludes."  Drawing on his doctoral work on Christian identity formation and consumer culture, he brings a sharp theological lens to a word that gets thrown around constantly but rarely examined. The conversation traces how "inclusion" has quietly become what Jason calls a "package deal" — a pseudo-confession where accepting one position requires accepting a whole cluster of others, on both the progressive and conservative sides. As Jason puts it in his article, inclusion has shifted from being one Christian virtue among many to becoming "the lens through which everything else is read, scripture, doctrine, ethics, and the church itself."   Shownotes: How 'Inclusive' Church Excludes - https://www.spex.so/p/how-inclusive-church-excludes The Church Needs Inclusion and Evangelism - https://churchandmain.substack.com/p/the-church-needs-inclusion-and-evangelism     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

America isn't breaking apart because people are more extreme. We're breaking apart because our civic relationships are. That's the line from writer and researcher Lura Forcum that sparked this conversation on political polarization, tribalism, and what faith communities can do about it. Dennis Sanders sits down with Lura Forcum, psychologist by training, writer of the newsletter How to Human, and co-host of the We Made This Political podcast, for a wide-ranging conversation on why Americans are sorting into hostile camps and what it would take to find our way back to each other. Lura draws on her background in social psychology to explain how tribalism works beneath our conscious awareness, why dehumanization is the first step toward justifying harm, and how her Christian faith, particularly the conviction that all people are made in the image of God, shapes her understanding of political conflict. The conversation moves through some of the year's hardest moments, including the death of Senator Lindsey Graham and the shooting of Charlie Kirk, and asks what it looks like to hold complexity about people we disagree with rather than reducing them to caricature. Along the way, Dennis and Lura talk about the segregated hour of American church life, the discomfort of crossing racial and denominational lines to worship, and why sharing a meal, whether at a neighborhood potluck or the communion table, might be one of the most powerful tools we have for rebuilding trust. Shownotes: How to Human (Substack newsletter) - https://h2h.substack.com/ We Made This Political (Podcast) - https://wemadethispolitical.substack.com/podcast     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

In a culture where churches increasingly demand ideological uniformity, is there still room for people who don't fit neatly into a camp? Dennis sits down with Garwood Anderson — former Dean and President of Nashotah House Theological Seminary, now a Senior Fellow at the Lumen Center — to talk about his article "A Place to Land," the story of a woman caught between conservative and progressive churches that each expected total agreement. Together they explore why churches have become political litmus tests, how fear and distrust drive people to the poles, what it means to detach Jesus from being a "mascot" for our own side, and why a genuine Christian discourse might make everyone a little uncomfortable — and why that's exactly the point. Shownotes: A Place to Land Loved Before We Are Labeled Gen Z's Lost Hope-YouTube Preview   Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

Why bad things happen to good people has always been the classic question of faith. But Gen Z is asking something different: why don't bad things happen to bad people? Jared Dodson — a Gen Z Bible professor at Bushnell University — joins Dennis to unpack the perspective he's seeing in his students and peers, one where anger at injustice, exposure to political violence, and a deep desire for God's judgment are reshaping how a generation reads scripture. They talk about the imprecatory Psalms, the story of David, the temptation to dehumanize the very people we call unjust, and why nonviolence still matters even when the old approaches feel like they've failed. The conversation moves through lament, mental health, the book of Job, and how Revelation offers a vision of reconciliation rather than just judgment. It's a generational conversation about anger, justice, and what it might take for older and younger Christians to understand each other. Shownotes: GenZ Isn't Asking Why Bad Things Happen to Good People Walking Alongside Scripture (Jared's Substack)       Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

There's a lot of despair in the world right now, and it seems especially pronounced among Generation Z. Writer, speaker, and podcaster Jake Doberins joins the show to talk about his recent essay "Having Hope in a Hopeless World," exploring why hope feels so scarce for his generation and what makes Christian hope different from mere optimism. Jake shares his own journey from a fundamentalist, know-it-all faith to something fuller and more honest, and unpacks why institutions, including the church, have lost people's trust. He and Dennis talk about loneliness, the risk built into hope, and why modeling a hopeful life matters more than teaching it. As Jake puts it, hope is "this stubborn belief that says, yeah, things are bad... but they're not always going to be bad." Shownotes: Having Hope in a Hopeless World Christianity without Compromise Podcast Heavy Lies the Stole     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

Is now a good time to have kids? For many younger people, the answer is a firm no — climate change, political chaos, economic uncertainty, and a general sense of doom have made the idea of bringing a child into the world feel irresponsible. But theologian and expectant father Griffin Gooch sees it differently. In this episode, Dennis talks with Griffin about why the fears surrounding having children — and getting married — say more about our cultural moment than they do about the actual goodness of family life. They explore how negativity bias and the constant flood of bad news shape our sense of the future, what social science actually tells us about what makes for a good life, and why the Christian tradition has always understood children as a profound blessing rather than a burden.  It's a conversation about hope, friction, flourishing, and why bringing something good into a broken world isn't naive — it might be exactly what the world needs. Shownotes: Having Kids When There's Never a Good Time to Have Kids     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube