Advertise on podcast: Church and Main

In John 14, Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus gives him a pained look and answers, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." If we want to know who God is, we look to Jesus, and when we do, we find a vulnerable God. Pastor and theologian Kenneth Tanner joins Dennis to talk about his new book, Vulnerable God: How Jesus Upends Our Assumptions About God and Shows Us How to Be Human. Tanner argues that Jesus doesn't blend our ideas of God with our ideas of humanity. Instead, Jesus interrogates both. In his words, "Jesus is the one who shows us what power even is." That means power looks like silence in the womb, helplessness in a manger, and surrender on a cross, not coercion or force. In this episode: Tanner's journey from a Pentecostal upbringing in Orlando through the charismatic movement to a liturgical church, the Book of Common Prayer, and weekly Eucharist Why the Word who spoke the cosmos into being accepts silence in the womb A fresh look at the three temptations in the wilderness as a test about power What the Black church's witness teaches about a God who is with us in suffering Resisting cynicism and false stories about God and ourselves, especially on social media Resources: Substack - https://kennethtanner.substack.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kenntanner/ Vulnerable God Book   Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

What if the church's obsession with growth is just modern-day Baal worship? Andrew Root returns to the podcast to discuss his new book Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic). Root — Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary — unpacks how the pressure to grow (whether through innovation or identity affirmation) mirrors ancient Israel's turn to fertility gods, and what it might mean instead to trust a God who meets us in weakness rather than escalation. In This Episode [0:24] Intro — Facebook-as-salvation in the 2000s, LGBTQ inclusion in mainline churches, and Flint, Michigan as parallel stories of hoping something will bring back “the good old days” [4:44] What led Root to write the book — a recurring church-growth conversation and an offhand comment about “fertility gods” that became the whole project [7:15] Baal as a fertility god, and how capital (financial, social, cultural) functions the same way for us today [9:27] The real question underneath growth anxiety — do we actually trust God? [9:53] Golden-era memory in mainline Protestantism (and Flint) as a parallel to Israel longing for Solomon’s era [15:37] The two camps inside every denomination — techno-optimists and identitarians — and why Root thinks both run on the same escalatory, capitalist logic [23:36] “We’re all prosperity preachers now” — willing to take on poverty now only to cash out later [31:35] Why Protestants have neglected Mary, and Luther’s reading of her as the true prophet [34:16] Jezebel reframed — not a sexual temptress but “the great economist” importing growth theory into Israel [38:12] The Magnificat as confession, not just judgment on others [41:09] A widower’s story on a Viking cruise — what he was actually grateful for from his church [45:35] Root’s word to pastors and small congregations dealing with anxiety about decline [50:21] Where to find Andrew Root’s work — andrewroot.org   Resources Andrew Root's website: andrewroot.org Book: Baal and the Gods of More — Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic) Ministry in a Secular Age Podcast: https://www.andrewroot.org/podcast/   Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

We tend to think of democracy in terms of institutions and procedures — voting, the Supreme Court, Congress. But what if it actually depends on something less visible: the everyday virtues that make shared life with people we didn't choose possible at all? Dennis talks with Jason Edwards, senior pastor of Second Baptist Church in Liberty, Missouri, about his Baptist News Global essay on democracy as a moral practice, sparked by a well-known 2008 moment when Senator John McCain corrected a supporter's false claim about Barack Obama. The conversation moves from there into how churches form — or fail to form — people capable of living alongside those they disagree with, including a candid look at emotional health as part of discipleship. They also touch on Jason's forthcoming book, At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us, built around the image of a house with many windows — each theory of the atonement offering a true but partial glimpse of something too vast to fully see. In this episode: Why Jason calls democracy "a moral practice" rather than just a system The McCain moment that shaped his thinking How churches can cultivate — or undermine — emotional maturity A preview of At Home with God and its "house with many windows" approach to atonement Links: Jason's essay, "Democracy as a moral practice, not just a system" (Baptist News Global) Jason G. Edwards on Substack At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us (IVP, November 2026) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

We've all heard of Trump Derangement Syndrome — the caricature of the uber-progressive who can't stop talking about the president. But what about the opposite version? The diehard loyalist who dismisses any criticism of Trump as irrational, even when it comes from people who share their faith? This week, Corey Nathan returns to talk about his  recent essay in The Dispatch titled "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey digs into what it looks like when people you love — friends, pastors, family — become what Corey calls "morally and epistemically unavailable." Drawing on an Al-Anon phrase that anchors his essay, "didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it," Corey wrestles with how far that logic should go when it comes to loved ones who've become unwavering Trump loyalists. Links: Corey's essay in The Dispatch: "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey's podcast: politicsandreligion.us Episode 78: Finding God in the Mundane with Corey Nathan Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)   Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

Dennis talks with Australian theologian Graham Joseph Hill about his new book, Ten Movements of the Jesus Way: Shifting from Worldly Self-Interest to Radical Discipleship. They discuss Graham's journey from a legalistic upbringing to planting his first church at 19, the danger of the "sovereign self," and moving past Jesus-as-slogan or Jesus-as-guru toward a third way rooted in the Gospels. Graham shares small, everyday practices of discipleship from his own church community and reflects on grace, imperfect community, and what the Jesus way offers a polarized culture. Shownotes: Ten Movements of the Jesus Way (Book) Graham Joseph Hill’s website Graham Joseph Hill Podcast Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

When JD Vance accused "in this house we believe" yard signs of butchering the Nicene Creed, Methodist pastor Teer Hardy started wondering what creeds are actually for. That question turned into an essay — and this conversation. Teer Hardy, pastor of Trinity United Methodist Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and co-host of the Crackers and Grape Juice podcast, returns to discuss his piece "Creeds Are Not Yard Signs." Shownotes: The Creeds Are Not Yard Signs The Body of Christ in a Polarized Culture with Teer Hardy | Episode 222   Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

Dennis sits down with Jason Swan Clark, theologian, spiritual director, and director of the London Centre for Spiritual Direction, to unpack his article "How Inclusive Church Excludes."  Drawing on his doctoral work on Christian identity formation and consumer culture, he brings a sharp theological lens to a word that gets thrown around constantly but rarely examined. The conversation traces how "inclusion" has quietly become what Jason calls a "package deal" — a pseudo-confession where accepting one position requires accepting a whole cluster of others, on both the progressive and conservative sides. As Jason puts it in his article, inclusion has shifted from being one Christian virtue among many to becoming "the lens through which everything else is read, scripture, doctrine, ethics, and the church itself."   Shownotes: How 'Inclusive' Church Excludes - https://www.spex.so/p/how-inclusive-church-excludes The Church Needs Inclusion and Evangelism - https://churchandmain.substack.com/p/the-church-needs-inclusion-and-evangelism     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

America isn't breaking apart because people are more extreme. We're breaking apart because our civic relationships are. That's the line from writer and researcher Lura Forcum that sparked this conversation on political polarization, tribalism, and what faith communities can do about it. Dennis Sanders sits down with Lura Forcum, psychologist by training, writer of the newsletter How to Human, and co-host of the We Made This Political podcast, for a wide-ranging conversation on why Americans are sorting into hostile camps and what it would take to find our way back to each other. Lura draws on her background in social psychology to explain how tribalism works beneath our conscious awareness, why dehumanization is the first step toward justifying harm, and how her Christian faith, particularly the conviction that all people are made in the image of God, shapes her understanding of political conflict. The conversation moves through some of the year's hardest moments, including the death of Senator Lindsey Graham and the shooting of Charlie Kirk, and asks what it looks like to hold complexity about people we disagree with rather than reducing them to caricature. Along the way, Dennis and Lura talk about the segregated hour of American church life, the discomfort of crossing racial and denominational lines to worship, and why sharing a meal, whether at a neighborhood potluck or the communion table, might be one of the most powerful tools we have for rebuilding trust. Shownotes: How to Human (Substack newsletter) - https://h2h.substack.com/ We Made This Political (Podcast) - https://wemadethispolitical.substack.com/podcast     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

In a culture where churches increasingly demand ideological uniformity, is there still room for people who don't fit neatly into a camp? Dennis sits down with Garwood Anderson — former Dean and President of Nashotah House Theological Seminary, now a Senior Fellow at the Lumen Center — to talk about his article "A Place to Land," the story of a woman caught between conservative and progressive churches that each expected total agreement. Together they explore why churches have become political litmus tests, how fear and distrust drive people to the poles, what it means to detach Jesus from being a "mascot" for our own side, and why a genuine Christian discourse might make everyone a little uncomfortable — and why that's exactly the point. Shownotes: A Place to Land Loved Before We Are Labeled Gen Z's Lost Hope-YouTube Preview   Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) |  Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)

Why bad things happen to good people has always been the classic question of faith. But Gen Z is asking something different: why don't bad things happen to bad people? Jared Dodson — a Gen Z Bible professor at Bushnell University — joins Dennis to unpack the perspective he's seeing in his students and peers, one where anger at injustice, exposure to political violence, and a deep desire for God's judgment are reshaping how a generation reads scripture. They talk about the imprecatory Psalms, the story of David, the temptation to dehumanize the very people we call unjust, and why nonviolence still matters even when the old approaches feel like they've failed. The conversation moves through lament, mental health, the book of Job, and how Revelation offers a vision of reconciliation rather than just judgment. It's a generational conversation about anger, justice, and what it might take for older and younger Christians to understand each other. Shownotes: GenZ Isn't Asking Why Bad Things Happen to Good People Walking Alongside Scripture (Jared's Substack)       Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

There's a lot of despair in the world right now, and it seems especially pronounced among Generation Z. Writer, speaker, and podcaster Jake Doberins joins the show to talk about his recent essay "Having Hope in a Hopeless World," exploring why hope feels so scarce for his generation and what makes Christian hope different from mere optimism. Jake shares his own journey from a fundamentalist, know-it-all faith to something fuller and more honest, and unpacks why institutions, including the church, have lost people's trust. He and Dennis talk about loneliness, the risk built into hope, and why modeling a hopeful life matters more than teaching it. As Jake puts it, hope is "this stubborn belief that says, yeah, things are bad... but they're not always going to be bad." Shownotes: Having Hope in a Hopeless World Christianity without Compromise Podcast Heavy Lies the Stole     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

Is now a good time to have kids? For many younger people, the answer is a firm no — climate change, political chaos, economic uncertainty, and a general sense of doom have made the idea of bringing a child into the world feel irresponsible. But theologian and expectant father Griffin Gooch sees it differently. In this episode, Dennis talks with Griffin about why the fears surrounding having children — and getting married — say more about our cultural moment than they do about the actual goodness of family life. They explore how negativity bias and the constant flood of bad news shape our sense of the future, what social science actually tells us about what makes for a good life, and why the Christian tradition has always understood children as a profound blessing rather than a burden.  It's a conversation about hope, friction, flourishing, and why bringing something good into a broken world isn't naive — it might be exactly what the world needs. Shownotes: Having Kids When There's Never a Good Time to Have Kids     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

Is artificial intelligence a threat — or a tool for love? Episcopal priest Cathie Caimano thinks it's the latter, and she joins Dennis in making the case that most church conversations about AI are missing the point entirely. Drawing from Pope Leo's encyclical Magnifica Humanitas, Cathie argues the question isn't whether AI is good or bad, but how each of us chooses to use it. While headlines focused on the Pope's warnings about AI's dangers, Cathie found something different at the heart of the encyclical — a call to examine our own values and ask how we are using these powerful new tools to love God and love our neighbor. Shownotes: The Pope said Use AI for Love' Bless Me Father, For I Have Sinned in using AI. Related Episodes: Navigating the AI Apocalypse with Michael DeLashmutt | Episode 284 Can AI Help or Hinder Human Flourishing? with Paul Hoffman | Episode 266 Pastoral Leadership and ChatGPT with Jeremy Wilhelmi | Episode 178   Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

What happens when a local church closes? More than a building goes dark — something essential to the fabric of community disappears with it. Trygve Johnson, executive director of the Preach For Foundation, joins Dennis to talk about why the local church matters more than most people realize and what is lost when congregations vanish from our neighborhoods. Drawing from his three-part Substack series When the Lights Go Out, Trygve introduces the idea of the "grammar of grace" — the underlying cadence of forgiveness, belonging, and second chances that the church offers to the broader culture. When that grammar goes silent, we are left with little more than meritocracy, isolation, and the exhausting pressure to perform our way into being loved. The conversation moves from the social utility of the church to something deeper — the sacramental and theological vision of a community that does not need to earn its place at the table because, as Trig puts it, the church is the table. Along the way, Dennis and Trig talk about recruiting the next generation of pastors, the importance of Wednesday potlucks, why Jesus apparently refused to serve bad wine, and what it means to practice resurrection in a season of anxiety and decline. Shownotes: When the Lights Go Out Part One When the Lights Go Out, Part Two When the Lights Go Out, Part Three Preach For website     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube

What does it mean to trust God in an age when trust itself feels almost impossible? In this episode, Dennis sits down with pastor, author, and Christian Century contributor Katherine Willis Pershey, who opens up about her journey from secular skepticism through ordained ministry to a renewed and deepening faith in the God who acts. They talk honestly about the decline of progressive mainline denominations like the UCC, asking whether the crisis is not just numerical but spiritual, rooted in a slow drift away from confidence in the resurrected Christ toward a gospel of human programs and good intentions. Katherine brings both unflinching honesty about the institutions she loves and a hard-won hope grounded not in optimism about what we can do but in the promise of what God is already doing. If you have ever felt the tension between pursuing justice and trusting in grace, or wondered whether the church can find its way through death to resurrection, this conversation is for you. Shownotes: Life, Death, and Resurrection in the United Church of Christ Please, liberal Christians, read Eugene Peterson Every day is Holy Saturday Katherine's website     Donate to Church and Main Church and Main Substack Join the Church and Main Email List Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube