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For most of his adult life, Adrian Hale Bishop lived with a quiet, constant question: what happens if people find out? He kept the parts of his life carefully compartmentalized, learned what not to say, and became very, very presentable. For a long time, he thought that was wisdom. Then, just as a business he had spent 22 years building was about to enter a new era, a sudden health crisis nearly killed him. The business collapsed, he left the life he had built over 12 years in Las Vegas, and he was left, in his words, with a blank slate: his cats, his laptops, and a story about a fictional country he had been carrying in his head since he was 13. During what became a long medical sabbatical, that story finally poured out as three novels, beginning with The Protector & The Heiress. Adrian returns to the show under his pen name, and he tells Lori why he is no longer willing to confuse privacy with shame. It is a conversation about the energy it takes to live as less than your whole self, why being known is not the same as being exposed, and how fiction can be a sharper mirror for leaders than any business book, from a secret police force reinvented as a pillar of the community to a granddaughter deciding whether she can live inside the machine she inherited. What You'll Take Away • Why fear of being "found out" can quietly run your decisions, and what changes when you stop organizing your life around other people's possible reactions • The difference between privacy and hiding, and what living under two names taught Adrian about authenticity • Why culture is what people repeatedly experience, not what an organization says about itself, as Ramón's transformation of the National Civic Guard illustrates • Why succession is about far more than transferring authority, and what Alana inherits when she takes responsibility for something someone else built • Why the most useful mirror for a leader is sometimes not a business book or framework, but a story in which you recognize yourself Guest Bio Adrian Hale Bishop is the pen name of an entrepreneur and consultant who now writes fiction exploring leadership, family, culture, ambition, identity, and the unexpected ways lives intersect. His work blends political fiction, romance, family saga, social observation, and speculative worldbuilding, and he believes the most interesting stories emerge where public lives and private realities meet. His debut novel, The Protector & The Heiress, set in the fictional nation of Balorga, is a sweeping story of family, legacy, ambition, love, and the stories powerful people leave behind. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00 Opening and episode premise 01:20 Welcome to "the man in the haze" 02:45 Two names, one man: why Adrian Hale Bishop is a pen name 03:31 The year the floor blew out: a health crisis and a business collapse 04:49 Who gets to decide what's "conventional"? 05:56 Bullying, escape, and where his tenacity came from 08:09 "I'm done being afraid of being found out" 09:03 The difference between privacy and fear 10:38 Did his body rebel against a divided life? 12:31 Radical permission to be congruent, aligned, and authentic 13:04 What he was afraid would happen, and how it led to fiction 13:31 A medical sabbatical that turned into three novels 14:41 The fictional country he has carried since age 13 16:38 The Protector & The Heiress: power, legacy, and succession 18:53 Multiple realities, one ecosystem 20:10 Fiction as a leadership mirror: Ramón and the National Civic Guard 22:49 Severance, compartmentalizing, and the quest for congruence 24:28 A book that refuses to fit one category 25:34 What he wants readers to take away 28:05 Copy edits, the Oxford comma, and a novel with its own playlist 30:50 You were raised, but you decide how to paint the house 31:35 His hype song: "Close to the Flame" by Benny Mardones 33:04 Where to find Adrian and the world of Balorga Resources Mentioned • Book: The Protector & The Heiress by Adrian Hale Bishop (available autumn 2026) - https://www.ProtectorAndHeiressBook.com/ • Substack: Between the Chapters by Adrian Hale Bishop - https://adrianhalebishop.substack.com/ • TV: Severance on Apple TV+ (mentioned by Lori) • Hype Song: "Close to the Flame" by Benny Mardones - https://open.spotify.com/track/0GrfZV6e1YcUWoiENjncgU Connect With Adrian Hale Bishop Website: https://www.AdrianHaleBishop.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adrianhalebishop/ Book: The Protector & The Heiress - https://www.ProtectorAndHeiressBook.com/ Substack: Between the Chapters - https://adrianhalebishop.substack.com/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/adrianhalebishop.bsky.social Continue With Lori Website: https://zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori Zen Rabbit This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation. Research & Sources • Adrian notes that "there's science" showing the emotional and social wounds of a hostile school environment don't simply disappear in adulthood. A large longitudinal study following children into their twenties found that people bullied in childhood had higher rates of anxiety disorders as adults. Source: Copeland, W. E., Wolke, D., Angold, A., & Costello, E. J. (2013). Adult psychiatric outcomes of bullying and being bullied by peers in childhood and adolescence. JAMA Psychiatry, 70(4), 419-426. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1654916 | NIMH summary: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-updates/2013/bullying-exerts-psychiatric-effects-into-adulthood

Ryan Lavarnway spent ten seasons in Major League Baseball and was called up and sent back down to the minors 26 times over 12 years. He was the slowest player on his high school team, never started a single varsity game at his natural position, and read in old newspaper clippings that every coach he ever had called him both the hardest worker they had seen and an unlikely success. At 17, desperate to be seen, Ryan raised his hand when his high school coach wondered aloud who would bat fourth. The coach didn't laugh. He asked, "Why not you?" Ryan didn't have an answer, and the doubts that had been running his head suddenly had nowhere to go. That question carried him to Yale, the majors, a World Series ring, and the Olympics with Team Israel. In this conversation, Ryan tells Lori how he trained the mental side of a career built on uncertainty: controlling what he could control each day, raising the floor instead of the ceiling, refusing to call any goal "unrealistic," and deliberately drafting the people he needs around him. He also shares the one thing he misses now that he has retired: waking up and knowing exactly what a win looks like. What You'll Take Away Why the question "Why not you?" can turn self-doubt into a roadmap of hurdles to clearHow to raise the floor, not the ceiling: give 100% of what you have on the days you don't feel your bestWhy calling a goal "unrealistic" is the first step toward not reaching it, and what to call it insteadThe six roles worth drafting onto your team: a coach, a peer, a gambler, an analyst, a cheerleader, and a BS meterWhy life after a scoreboard requires you to decide for yourself what a win looks like today, this month, and this year Guest Bio Ryan Lavarnway played ten seasons in Major League Baseball as a catcher after starring at Yale, and is a World Series champion and an Olympian who represented Team Israel at the Tokyo Olympics. Over 12 years he was added to and removed from Major League rosters 26 times, a career he describes as proof that resilience, adaptability, and self-belief can beat the odds. Today he is a keynote speaker, workshop facilitator, and leadership coach who helps teams and individuals unlock their potential. He is also an Ironman, a 90s music fan, a coffee addict, and a proud girl dad. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00 Cold open: 26 call-ups and the question "Why not you?" 01:21 Meeting at the Warrior Defined men's retreat 02:24 How "do your best" became "be the best" in a young athlete's mind 03:45 A father who coached by asking Ryan to teach him 05:00 From catcher to the slowest outfielder, and back again 07:03 Every coach called him the hardest worker, and an unlikely success 08:40 The mental side of being sent down 26 times 10:01 Control what you can control today 11:43 Raise the floor, not the ceiling 12:29 The high school coach who asked, "Why not you?" 15:04 Keep the goal audacious, make the next step small 16:59 Why you should never call your goal unrealistic 18:56 Draft your team: coach, peer, gambler, analyst, cheerleader, BS meter 21:42 Letting people be who they naturally are for you 25:16 Going after the Olympic opportunity instead of waiting for it 26:31 New North Stars: husband, father, and life after baseball 27:17 What he misses most: knowing what a win is 28:51 A career's worth of walk-up songs 30:15 Where to find Ryan 30:46 Lori's five takeaways Resources Mentioned Book: The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World by Brad Stulberg - https://www.bradstulberg.org/p/the-way-of-excellenceBook: Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill (mentioned by Lori)Research: Goal-setting research by Locke, Shaw, Saari, and Latham (see Research & Sources)Walk-up Songs: "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison and "Head & Heart" by Joel Corry featuring MNEK (his two most frequent); others over the years included "What I Like About You" by The Romantics, "Carry On Wayward Son" by Kansas, "What It's Like" by Everlast, "Summertime" by DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, and "Superstition" by Stevie Wonder Connect With Ryan Lavarnway Website: https://ryanlavarnway.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-lavarnway/ Ryan is available for keynote speaking, workshops, and leadership coaching. Reach out through his website or LinkedIn. Continue With Lori Website: https://zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori Zen Rabbit This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 243: The Fire Pit Confession That Rebuilt His Life with Henry Tolbert Another conversation about resilience, rebuilding after a setback, and the people who help you get back up. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation. Research & Sources Ryan cites a "Harvard Business Review study" showing that people with a high, specific goal "perform 90% better" than those with a vague intention. The figure most often cited comes from a review of goal-setting research by Locke, Shaw, Saari, and Latham (1981), which found that specific, challenging goals led to higher performance than easy or "do your best" goals in roughly 90% of the studies reviewed. The 90% refers to how consistently the effect appeared, not to the size of the improvement. Source: Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., & Latham, G. P. (1981). Goal setting and task performance: 1969-1980. Psychological Bulletin, 90(1), 125-152. Summary: https://www.mindtools.com/azazlu3/lockes-goal-setting-theory/"Raise the floor" is a concept Ryan attributes to Brad Stulberg's book The Way of Excellence.Career facts (Yale; MLB 2011 to 2021; Team Israel at the Tokyo 2020 Olympics, held in 2021) checked against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Lavarnway

In 1988, Diana Keough came home for Christmas for the first time in three years. She was married, she had a six-month-old baby, and she was determined to finally build the kind of relationship with her mother she had watched her friends enjoy. Within weeks, her family learned that her father, a trial attorney and pillar of a fundamentalist Baptist community, had AIDS and had been living a double life for 27 years. Three weeks later, her mother tested positive for HIV. Diana was trained as a journalist, so she did what journalists do. With her mother's permission, she dropped a tape recorder into her purse before her mother confronted her father in the hospital, and she kept recording. Over the next six years she gathered more than 100 hours of interviews with both parents, their caregivers, and her mother's psychiatrist, trying to understand the people who had raised her inside so many secrets. In this conversation, Diana tells Lori what it took to forgive a mother who had been cruel, to keep loving a father who had been her North Star and had also lied, and to reconcile with five siblings who split into Team Mom and Team Dad and went years without speaking. It is a conversation about truth-telling, the grace families rarely offer each other in a crisis, and why she ultimately decided her story had no victims and no villains. What You'll Take Away Why Diana started recording her parents in 1988, and what 100 hours of tape revealed about two people she thought she knewHow learning her parents' own childhoods helped her see them as broken people rather than only as the source of her painWhy the silence in an interview, or a hard conversation, often gets you closer to the truth than the next questionHow six siblings who went years without speaking found their way back, through a Sunday morning book club that became "a reconciliation in real time"What it means to tell a painful family story so that there are no victims and no villains Guest Bio Diana Keough is an award-winning journalist whose work has appeared in The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer, on NPR, and on PBS. Named AP Ohio Reporter of the Year, she has won roughly thirty journalism awards across print and radio. She holds an MFA in narrative nonfiction from the University of Georgia's Grady College, where she teaches, and writes the monthly column "Between Sundays" for Salvation South. Not From a Nice Family, her reported memoir podcast produced with Campside Media for Audible, is her first podcast. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00 Opening and episode premise 01:29 Growing up fundamentalist Baptist in Elm Grove, Wisconsin 02:32 Leaving Bob Jones University, and the mother who stopped speaking to her 03:47 Coming home in 1988 hoping to finally connect with her mom 04:54 The diagnosis that exposed her father's 27-year double life 05:50 Why a journalist put a tape recorder in her mother's purse 07:48 Seeing her parents as broken people, and the abuse she had to forgive 11:00 Team Mom vs. Team Dad: how six siblings split apart 13:13 Why both parents agreed to be recorded 17:54 The interviewer's best tool: staying silent 19:22 A marriage her mother never wanted, and her father's side of the story 23:41 National media, and her father becoming a leader in Cincinnati 25:55 "The six of us is the only club I ever wanted to be a member of" 27:07 Thirty years of boxes, 33 cassettes, and full transparency with her siblings 30:15 No victims, no villains, and the Sunday calls that became the ending 33:05 Her hype song: "Brave" by Sara Bareilles 33:45 Where to listen to Not From a Nice Family and connect with Diana Resources Mentioned Podcast: Not From a Nice Family by Diana Keough, an Audible Original produced with Campside Media (search "Not From a Nice Family" on Audible; Audible subscription required)Column: "Between Sundays" by Diana Keough at Salvation South - https://www.salvationsouth.com/author/diana-keough/Hype Song: "Brave" by Sara Bareilles - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUQsqBqxoR4&list=RDQUQsqBqxoR4&start_radio=1 Connect With Diana Keough LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/diana-keough-a354646/ Instagram: @dianakeyo (https://www.instagram.com/dianakeyo/) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61557124244395 Twitter/X: @dikeough (https://x.com/dikeough) Podcast: Not From a Nice Family (Audible Original; search the title on Audible) Continue With Lori Website: https://zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori Zen Rabbit This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 239: One Drop of Water and a Dying Plant with Cyndy Etler Another conversation about telling the truth of a difficult upbringing in a strict, controlling environment, and turning that story into a memoir. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation. Research & Sources Diana describes the high doses of AZT her mother received in the early 1990s and notes that the "AIDS cocktail" arrived after her mother's death in 1994. Combination antiretroviral therapy became the standard of care in 1996, following the approval of protease inhibitors, and early AZT monotherapy was given at higher doses than later regimens. Source: "HIV Treatment Paradigm Shifts over the Past 40 Years," PMC - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12749152Diana's statement that only four AIDS hospices existed in 1988 is presented as her recollection, not as an independently verified figure.

On September 6, 1997, the day of Princess Diana's funeral, Jobert Abueva couldn't get out of bed. He was in a Hong Kong hotel room, paralyzed for the better part of 48 hours, unable to touch the club sandwich or hot tea he'd ordered, crying from exhaustion, loneliness, and homesickness. It was, he says, the lowest point of a career that from the outside looked like nothing but success. For most of his thirties, Jobert had been living the frenzied pace of a global marketing career, opening new markets for Herbal Essences across Europe, the Middle East, and Asia, jumping from country to country in a matter of months, taking calls with U.S. headquarters at all hours. He got the raises and the next plum assignment. He also got the lack of sleep, the overeating, the overdrinking, and the signals he kept ignoring, until his body simply stopped. In this conversation, Jobert tells Lori how a childhood memory of Janus, the two-faced Roman god of beginnings and endings, surfaced in that hotel room and became the seed of a framework he now calls the Janus Plan. It's a conversation about what happens when you finally stop outrunning burnout, why looking backward is what makes it possible to move forward, and why boundaries only stick the second time you build them on purpose. What You'll Take Away Why ignoring burnout signals for years eventually catches up with even the highest performersHow a childhood memory of the Roman god Janus reframed Jobert's understanding of endings and beginningsWhy 'ponder the past' before 'frame the future' makes goals more sustainable than New Year's resolutionsHow setting boundaries the second time around, including turning down future expat assignments and developing a team instead of doing everything himself, reshaped his second corporate careerWhy any personal threshold, not just January 1st, can be the start of a meaningful new chapter Guest Bio Jobert E. Abueva grew up between four Asian countries and went on to a three-decade global marketing and philanthropy career, including launching Herbal Essences into international markets. He is a TEDx speaker, a Lambda Literary Prize recipient, and the author of The Janus Plan: A No-Resolutions Path to Begin Your Year with Intention. He lives in New Hope, Pennsylvania. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00 Opening and episode premise 00:39 The nomadic childhood that shaped a global career 07:09 Launching Herbal Essences across Europe, the Middle East, and Asia 10:55 The signals he ignored: exhaustion, overwork, and a frenzied pace 12:00 September 6, 1997: the Hong Kong hotel room he couldn't leave 15:48 A childhood memory of Janus reframes everything 20:15 Ponder the past, frame the future: leaving corporate to write 24:13 Setting boundaries the second time around 26:05 The Janus Plan: a no-resolutions path to a new year 34:24 His hype song and the moment it found him 36:17 Where to find Jobert and the invitation to 'be like Janus' Resources Mentioned Book: The Janus Plan: A No-Resolutions Path to Begin Your Year with Intention by Jobert E. AbuevaJobert's 2023 boyhood memoir (referenced in conversation; title to be confirmed with Jobert's team before publication)Hype Song: "You Get What You Give" by New Radicals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL7-CKirWZE&list=RDDL7-CKirWZE&start_radio=1 Connect With Jobert Abueva Website: https://joberteabueva.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobertabueva/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joberteabueva/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joberteabueva/ Book: https://amzn.to/477VkA7 Continue With Lori Website: https://zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori Zen Rabbit This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

John Azar fled Syria at 16 in the middle of a civil war, arrived in Charlotte, North Carolina not speaking a word of English, and eventually built his way to an MBA in finance and a career in commercial real estate. Then came 2008. His first company collapsed with no clients, no money, and a brand new baby at home. He rebuilt, more than once. Along the way, his own therapist gave him a label he still carries: toxic optimist. He believes, almost unshakably, in people's capacity to change, and he's had to learn what that belief costs him when the other person never actually does the work. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, John talks with Lori Saitz about what failure actually means once you separate the event from the emotion attached to it, why he believes mastery requires periods of genuine imbalance, and what he tells business leaders facing circumstances completely outside their control. What You'll Take Away Why believing in people's inherent goodness can work against you, according to what John's own therapist told himWhy failure is whatever you decide it is, and why the event itself is different from the emotion you attach to itWhat John did in 2008 with no clients, no money, and a newborn at home, and what it teaches about controlling only what's actually yours to controlWhy sometimes the answer isn't what to add to your life, but what to stop doingWhy mastery requires periods of genuine imbalance, and why that imbalance has to come in sustainable chunks rather than forever Guest Bio John Azar is a public speaker, coach, and founder. He speaks and coaches about entrepreneurship, resilience, and the myth surrounding balance and failure. He founded Peak15 Capital, a private equity firm specializing in commercial real estate, with talks drawing on two decades of deal-making, including work on a cumulative portfolio worth over $2 billion nationwide. Prior leadership roles at MACC Venture Partners and Boston Venture Partners, which he co-founded, round out his operating background, and he is also co-founder of Forja, an institutional-grade education and coaching ecosystem for commercial real estate investing and capital markets. He is a graduate of UNC Charlotte and Boston University's Questrom School of Business. Chapters & Key Timestamps 01:25 The values he was raised with, and growing up the youngest of five in Syria 02:52 Growing up “raised by the wild,” and a childhood shaped by civil war 04:09 Immigrating to Charlotte, North Carolina at 16 with no English 05:32 The people who became his avatars: his father, brother, mother, and sisters 08:46 The term his therapist gave him: “toxic optimist” 10:53 Why failure is whatever you decide it is 14:14 His failed marriage, and what he's learned about facing himself 18:09 Building and closing multiple companies, including through the 2008 crisis 20:49 What to say to leaders facing circumstances completely outside their control 23:15 Commission and omission: sometimes the answer is what to stop doing 24:34 The daily practices that keep him grounded 25:00 Embracing imbalance as a requirement for mastery 31:04 The free diver metaphor: why imbalance has to come in chunks, not forever 32:27 The song that gets him going, and its unlikely origin 33:20 Where to find John: his coaching site and Peak 15 Capital Resources Mentioned Company: Peak15 Capital — private equity firm specializing in commercial real estateCompany: Forja — institutional-grade education and coaching ecosystem for CRE investing and capital markets, co-founded by JohnTV Show: Ballers (HBO) — the source of John's energy songSong: Right Above It by Lil Wayne and Drake — open.spotify.com/track/1kMuU3TNQvHbqvXCWBodmP Connect With John Azar Company: Peak15 Capital Company: Forja Website: johnazar.com Website: peak15cap.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jalalazar Instagram: @jjazar Email: [email protected] Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 240: Amanda Van Der Heiden — on “win or learn,” her own reframe of failure that closely parallels John's view that failure is whatever you decide it is. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

How many things in your life are you currently trying to fix that aren't even yours to fix? An employee who isn't performing the way you want. A team member who keeps making the same mistake. A business problem you've been solving alone for years. A family member whose choices frustrate you. Your own tendency to overwork, overthink, and over-achieve. Recording solo this week from Ideas Fest, a festival in a field about 45 minutes outside London with 6,000 other founders, entrepreneurs, and investors, Lori Saitz breaks down why fixing feels like responsibility but is actually about control, and why the exact instinct that made you successful as an individual contributor is often the thing holding your team, your family, or yourself back. Drawing on conversations from four past episodes, a business owner who scaled by stepping back, a leader who reframed what it means to see people as more than resources, a guest who spent years achieving to prove his worth, and a founder who lost everything overnight through no fault of her own, Lori lays out a five-question test for telling the difference between fixing and leading, and what real trust actually requires you to give up. What You'll Take Away Why fixing other people's problems is often less about helping them and more about maintaining a feeling of controlThe real difference between helping someone become more capable and rescuing them from ever having to beWhy the skill that made you successful as an individual contributor can become the exact thing holding your organization back once you're leading othersA five-question test to run before you jump in and solve a problem that was never yours to solveWhat “this is how it is now” actually means as a starting point for acceptance, not a form of giving up Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00 Opening: the cost of fixing things that aren't yours to fix 01:27 Recording solo from Ideas Fest in England 01:57 The things we try to fix that were never ours to fix 02:41 Why fixing feels like responsibility, but is often about control 03:10 The high-achiever hustle myth, and what it actually costs 03:37 You can only control your inputs, never the outcomes 04:08 The exact skill that gets you promoted becomes the thing holding your team back 04:39 Will Steel's story: the business owner who scaled by stepping back (Ep. 235) 05:16 Five questions to ask before deciding your team needs more of you 05:55 The real difference between helping and rescuing 06:30 What rescuing sounds like, versus what leadership actually sounds like 07:37 Scott Doggett's boat analogy: rowing hard, barely rowing, rowing backwards (Ep. 238) 08:42 Why you can't lead someone you've already decided is a problem 09:19 Recognizing people as humans, not managing them as “resources” 09:55 Anthony Sparks and the belief that achievement will finally make you worthy (Ep. 216) 11:01 Why external achievement can't fix an internal problem 11:30 What happens when you genuinely cannot fix the situation 11:57 Jodi Scott's story: losing everything in 24 hours, through nothing she did wrong (Ep. 236) 13:17 “This is how it is now”: acceptance as a starting point, not surrender 14:00 Why trust and micromanaging cannot coexist 14:38 Trusting someone means trusting their way, not just your way 15:16 The five-question test: am I fixing, or am I leading? 16:28 What true leadership actually looks like 16:56 The song, and why it's a little ironic given today's topic The Fixing-or-Leading Test RUN THIS BEFORE YOU JUMP IN TO SOLVE SOMETHING THAT ISN'T YOURS: 1. Is this even mine to fix? If not, step back. 2. Does this person need me to give them an answer, or do they need me to ask better questions? 3. Am I solving the problem, or am I relieving my own discomfort? 4. If I fix this, what will this person learn? 5. What happens if I don't step in? Resources Mentioned Song: Control by Janet Jackson Episodes Referenced in This Episode Episode 235: Will Steel — the auto body shop client who went from 65–75-hour weeks to 12, grew revenue from $2.5M to $7M, and sold the business for $23.5M within 12 months of stepping out of the day-to-day.Episode 238: Scott Doggett — the boat analogy for team engagement: three people rowing hard, five barely dipping their oars, two actively rowing backwards.Episode 216: Anthony Sparks — on why money, titles, and achievement are scoreboards that can buy options and reduce stress, but can't replace self-respect or meaningful connection.Episode 236: Jodi Scott — on losing her team and her income within 24 hours after her acquiring partner was raided by federal investigators, and the phrase that became her starting point afterward: “this is how it is now.” Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation

Shane Lukas built his career on the belief that transparency, done right, protects you. He had spoken about his history in sex work advocacy at national and international conferences for years, and when a highly awarded, LGBTQ-friendly US company hired him, he did what he always did: he was upfront about who he was and where he'd come from. The same day, someone in the sales department Googled his name and called HR. He was terminated immediately, for something that had nothing to do with his job performance. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Shane tells Lori Saitz what that firing revealed about the gap between a company's stated values and its lived ones, what a federal arrest years later taught him about testing his own values under real pressure, and why he now believes clarity about your values, not compromise, is what actually makes hard decisions easier. What You'll Take Away Why being fired for radical transparency, from a company that had built its brand on LGBTQ+ support, revealed the real gap between stated values and lived onesWhat a values hierarchy is, and why trying to defend every value equally leaves you paralyzed instead of groundedWhy Shane believes the next generation may be better positioned to stand up for their values, having less invested in promises that were already brokenThe difference between the 'melting pot' and 'mosaic' metaphors for culture, and why the mosaic reflects what he actually wants to seeWhat algorithm-driven feeds cost us that a library shelf never did, and why 'adjacent knowledge' matters more than it sounds Guest Bio Shane Lukas is an activist, the brains behind award-winning brand strategy firm A Great Idea, a public speaker, and co-host of Power Beyond Pride, the weekly podcast for queer changemakers. In his latest TEDx talk, “What Values Conflict Costs You,” he brings Midwestern straight-talk to the lie of “I'm fine”: what misalignment actually costs you, and how courage becomes a practice instead of a personality trait. Chapters & Key Timestamps 02:00The values he was raised with: authenticity, compassion, and bodily autonomy 06:00Growing up in an unstable, abusive household, and learning to self-parent at a young age 07:30Meeting Patty Alzator at 14, and what she modeled about dissent through compassion 09:00Studying journalism on the belief that more information leads to better decisions 11:00Building the country's only advocacy program for men in the adult industry 12:00Terminated the same day, after being fully transparent about his past 15:00Being tested on how far he was actually willing to go for his own values 16:00The second TEDx talk, and the arrest that prompted it 19:00The values hierarchy: why you can't defend every value equally 21:00Clarity around your values as the thing that actually makes decisions easier 23:00Whether thinking about your values is a luxury, and why he doesn't think so 27:00Pushing back on a company that refused LGBTQ+ protections despite employing queer people 29:30Why the next generation may be more prepared to stand up for their values 33:30The library metaphor: what 'adjacent knowledge' gave us that algorithms don't 38:00The song that gets him ready to walk on stage 39:00Where to find Shane: shanelukas.com and agreatidea.com Resources Mentioned TEDx Talk: What Values Conflict Costs You — Shane LukasTEDx Talk: Shane's second talk, on the arrest referenced in this episodePodcast: Power Beyond Pride — the weekly podcast for queer changemakers, co-hosted by ShaneFree Resource: downloadable resources and white papers — agreatidea.com/insightsBook: Shane's upcoming book, launching October — sign up for launch notice at shanelukas.com/bookSong: Be Great by Jill Scott (feat. Trombone Shorty) — youtube.com/watch?v=ouDRlJljBgs Connect With Shane Lukas Company: A Great Idea Website: shanelukas.com Website: agreatidea.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/shane-lukas Instagram: @shanelukascom and @agreatideaco X (Twitter): @shanelukascom and @weareagi Podcast: Power Beyond Pride Free Resource: agreatidea.com/insights Book: sign up for launch notice at shanelukas.com/book Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 241: Suneet Bhatt — on values clarity as the foundation for every hard decision, not an obstacle to it. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Henry Tolbert was sitting at a fire pit behind a rental house, grilling hot dogs for his wife and four daughters because the insurance money for their flooded home was running out, when he finally said out loud what he had been avoiding for months: this isn't fine. A few years earlier, Henry had been leading a small church that grew from 40 people to nearly 200, and had been named bishop over 65 churches. Then, without warning, discord broke out with the leader who had brought him in, and he was forced to resign from everything at once. In that same season, an unidentified animal chewed through the water lines in the walls of his home, flooding the first floor and displacing his family for six weeks. He had no job, no income, and what he calls a broken sense of purpose. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Henry tells Lori Saitz the full arc: a high school football career derailed by one injury after another, a scholarship earned in just five games, an NFL tryout built on the wrong game tape, a Bible study intervention that redirected him into ministry, and the fire pit moment that gave him permission to stop building other people's dreams and finally build his own. What You'll Take Away Why a childhood dream pursued through repeated injury taught Henry more than an NFL career would haveHow losing his ministry role and his home in the same season forced an honest reckoning he had been avoiding for yearsWhy judging his life by lead goals, the inputs he controls, instead of lag goals, the outcomes he doesn't, changed how he shows up every dayWhat shifted when Henry stopped chasing clients and started inviting people insteadHow admitting he wasn't fine gave him permission to finally build something of his own Guest Bio Henry Tolbert spent years answering “How are you?” with “I'm fine” while quietly running on fumes, leading a church, building a business, and pretending he had it all together. Spoiler: he didn't. Now he's the Founder of Simple Systems Consulting, author of The Comeback Plan, and a recovering “I'm fine” addict who helps pastors and entrepreneurs stop white-knuckling their way through leadership and start building systems that actually let them breathe. He's also an Associate Pastor, podcast co-host, husband, dad of four, and a man who once grilled hot dogs over a fire pit in his backyard because life had completely fallen apart, and decided that was the last time he'd pretend everything was fine when it wasn't. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00Opening and introductions — the Henry connection and generational names 01:33The values that shaped him: faith and football in Birmingham, Alabama 05:07A high school career derailed by injury after injury 07:07Five games, one scholarship, and a record-setting career at Grambling State 07:47What NFL scouts never saw: the tape from his best season 08:47His grandmother's plea to walk away — and why he couldn't 11:07The Bible study intervention that redirected him toward ministry 13:47“There's a light around you” — the moment that sealed it 14:47Becoming a bishop over 65 churches, then losing it overnight 15:47The critters, the flooded house, and six weeks displaced with four daughters 17:47The fire pit moment: admitting he wasn't fine 21:07Why people of faith are so good at sweeping things under the rug 25:47Lead goals vs. lag goals: judging life by inputs, not outcomes 27:47The coaching advice that changed everything: invite, don't chase 29:47Why the people who found him became his best clients 31:47Building an audience by just showing up, even when only his wife was watching 34:07In the Air Tonight by Phil Collins: Henry's walk-up song 35:07Where to find Henry: getchurchsystems.com and mybusinesssystems.com Resources Mentioned Book: The Comeback Plan by Henry TolbertFree Resource: Get Church Systems — getchurchsystems.com (for ministry and church leaders)Free Resource: My Business Systems — mybusinesssystems.com (for business owners and entrepreneurs)Resource: The Mandate Method — themandatemethod.comSong: In the Air Tonight by Phil Collins — open.spotify.com/track/7Dbg5O9nNWu6SWxDjJ9qoq Connect With Henry Tolbert Company: Simple Systems Consulting Website: getchurchsystems.com Website: mybusinesssystems.com Website: themandatemethod.com Book: The Comeback Plan LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/henry-tolbert-005a3943 Facebook: facebook.com/htolbert Instagram: instagram.com/henry_tolbert Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 237: Scott Doggett — a leader who lost his role suddenly and rebuilt around a clearer sense of who he actually was. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Content Note: This episode includes a brief, non-graphic reference to a personal crisis involving suicidal thoughts. Jim Morris grew up believing giving was the whole equation. His father taught him to give the shirt off his back to anyone who needed it, and it showed up everywhere in his childhood, right down to the night his father pulled a stranger from a burning car outside their home. What Jim didn't learn for a long time was how to receive. It took a high-stakes business risk, a $240,000 self-funded conference that lost $112,000, and a moment of real personal crisis for him to finally ask for help directly. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Jim tells Lori Saitz about the Triple H method for actually supporting the people you love, and about four words from his two-year-old daughter that pulled him back from the lowest point of his life. What You'll Take Away Why guessing what someone needs, help, being heard, or a hug, is one of the most common ways people let each other downHow a single moment of connection can ripple outward in ways you'll never see or know aboutWhy anticipating the worst contractually protects relationships and business deals alikeThe Five Alive exercise: what's already sitting, untapped, in your last five text conversationsWhy Jim now treats a $112,000 loss as an investment, not a failure Guest Bio Jim Morris is a keynote speaker who helps organizations scale revenue and create deep belonging by centering their culture on integrity, connection, and intentional growth. He is the author of Connect or Die: How to Survive AI and serves as the CEO of Human Touch Publishing. Chapters & Key Timestamps 03:00The night a car crashed outside his childhood home 05:00His father pulling a stranger from a burning car, and the police officer's warning 07:00The question that reframes everything: how are you at receiving? 09:00The moment everything was on the line and he finally had to ask for help 11:30The Triple H method: help, heard, or hugged, and why guessing wrong fails people 17:47A period of profound personal crisis, interrupted by four words from his daughter 26:30The confidant, ally, acquaintance bullseye exercise, and how to build it 32:00The Five Alive exercise: what's already sitting in your text messages 34:00The $240,000 conference, the sales team that walked out, and losing $112,000 35:30The sign on the highway that said exactly what he needed to hear 37:30Reframing failure as an investment, not a loss Resources Mentioned Book: Connect or Die: How to Survive AI by Jim Morris — a.co/d/00BVmyGxSong: Spinnin by Connor Price — youtu.be/UekfKh59KOw Connect With Jim Morris Company: Human Touch Publishing Website: realjimmorris.com Book: Connect or Die: How to Survive AI — a.co/d/00BVmyGx LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/realjimmorris Facebook: facebook.com/therealjimmorris Instagram: instagram.com/realjimmorris Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 240: Amanda Van Der Heiden — on resilience, boundaries, and what it costs to keep giving without receiving. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Suneet Bhatt spent 12 years in private equity and venture-backed businesses, and every job followed the same arc: new and exciting at first, then, faster each time, something felt off, and he went looking for the next one. He never noticed he was the common denominator. It took his wife, after his last business exit, to name what he couldn't see in himself: his happiness at work was getting shorter each time, his exits were getting more acrimonious, and he needed to stop and figure out what actually mattered to him. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Suneet talks with Lori Saitz about what came after that conversation — the executive coaching practice, the Rutgers class that doesn't mention the word purpose until session 15, and the research-backed exercise he uses to counter the brain's built-in negativity bias. What You'll Take Away Why purpose has to start with reflection, not predictionThe three consistent through-lines across every popular definition of purpose: personal, forward-looking, bigger than youThe 18-minute exercise, happy, proud, not yet satisfied, and why the order mattersWhat the research on self-forgiveness and procrastination actually showsWhy 'stuck' is not one problem, and each version of it needs a different response Guest Bio Suneet Bhatt has spent more than 25 years helping people gain clarity about who they are and what they want, then move toward it with purpose. He coaches founders and leaders, works with teams as an EOS Implementer, and has guided people from boardrooms to classrooms. He is the author of Making Sense of Purpose, out August 25, 2026 from Morgan James, built on one premise: before you can make sense of your purpose, you have to make sense of yourself. Chapters & Key Timestamps 01:33Values from an immigrant household: be helpful, above everything else 07:14The corporate route: Fortune 500, an MBA at Duke, then 12 years in private equity 08:30Why he never noticed he was the common denominator 08:58His wife's intervention after the last exit 12:03Why 'finding your purpose' feels like waiting for an Amazon package 13:43Personal, forward-looking, bigger than you: the three common threads in every definition of purpose 14:12The Rutgers bait-and-switch: purpose doesn't come up until class 15 16:07Why you should never build your purpose on a single point of failure like joy 18:16Happy, proud, not yet satisfied: the 18-minute exercise, explained start to finish 22:06Negativity bias: why we respond more strongly to negative stimuli than positive 23:48Plateaus, not stuck: reframing what it means to feel stuck 25:09Self-forgiveness research: the procrastination study and what it proves Resources Mentioned Book: Making Sense of Purpose by Suneet Bhatt (Morgan James, August 25, 2026) — available for pre-orderResource: book soundtrack, one song per chapter, on Spotify, YouTube, and Amazon MusicResource: Purpose Radar Library — a free, rated map of books, podcasts, and films about purposeSong: Da Rockwilder by Method Man and Redman — youtube.com/watch?v=WCYy8jpp7R8 Connect With Suneet Bhatt Website: makingsenseofpurpose.com Book: Making Sense of Purpose (Morgan James, out August 25, 2026) LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/suneetbhatt Instagram: @suneetonpurpose Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 238: Scott Doggett — on purpose, burnout, and what it takes to stop and ask the bigger question. Research & Sources Suneet cites research showing humans respond 2 to 5 times more strongly to negative stimuli than positive. This aligns with well-established negativity bias research, including Roy Baumeister's 'bad is stronger than good' review, Kahneman and Tversky's work on loss aversion (roughly a 2:1 ratio), and Cacioppo's neural response studies showing measurably stronger brain activation to negative stimuli. The exact ratio varies by study and context, but the underlying finding is well replicated. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Replaced by Three Employees and Called It a Badge of Honor with Amanda Van Der Heiden Amanda Van Der Heiden could trot on a horse before she could walk. When she fell into a sandpit at age two, her parents put her right back on before she was done crying — no discussion, no choice. That lesson became the operating principle for the rest of her life, including a corporate career that hit the exact same burnout pattern three times in three different companies. At 27, working 20-hour days with a team spanning two continents, she left one role and was replaced by three full-time employees. She saw it as a badge of honor for years, until the same thing happened again, and then again. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Amanda talks with Lori Saitz about what executive presence actually looks like, the real difference between introversion and extroversion, and why she now measures success by whether she tried, not whether she succeeded. What You'll Take Away Why chasing bigger networks misses the point when most people already have valuable relationships they've stopped tendingWhat Amanda learned about executive presence by watching three tiers of leadership arrive at the same conferenceThe real difference between introversion and extroversion — it's about how you refuel, not how social you areWhy the same burnout pattern across three different companies pointed to one common denominatorWhat Amanda means by 'win or learn,' and why it removes the fear of trying Guest Bio Amanda Van Der Heiden is a Chaos Organizer and Relationship Builder, and a passionate learning and development leader who enjoys energizing and enabling people to excel. She is an award-winning consultant, speaker, coach, and author who drives change, talent development, and effective leadership worldwide. Chapters & Key Timestamps 01:05Raised on a horse farm: work ethic, determination, resilience 03:21Raised between Kentucky and Long Island, and how that shaped her adaptability 07:19The horse story: strapped into the stirrups before she could walk 08:06The sandpit: falling at two years old and being put right back on 18:09The leadership conference: watching executive presence across three tiers of seniority 22:03The burnout pattern: 20-hour days, a team across two continents, 17,000 people 23:17Getting replaced by three full-time employees, and thinking it was a compliment 25:41Introversion and extroversion explained correctly: it is about refueling, not sociability 28:01Win or learn: the redefinition of failure that removes the fear Resources Mentioned Free Resource: goal-accomplishment giveaway for listeners — goGTDS.comSong: Get Things Done by Solyn — open.spotify.com/track/2WsizP4qoRB7rAZb3oxsRN Connect With Amanda Van Der Heiden Website: GTDScorp.com Free Resource: goGTDS.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amandavanderheiden Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=61573758719415 Instagram: gtds.LearnTuesday Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 238: Scott Doggett — on employee engagement, burnout, and treating people as more than resources to manage. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Content Note: This episode includes discussion of childhood abuse, institutional trauma, and a reference to suicidal ideation, drawn from Cyndy's own published memoirs. Cyndy Etler was 13 when she chose foster care over going home. A month at a Bridgeport youth shelter gave her the first real choices of her life. Then her mother enrolled her in Straight Incorporated, a program later described by the ACLU as a concentration camp for throwaway teens, where Cyndy was held for 16 months for having tried marijuana three times. She came home brainwashed, isolating in bathroom stalls at lunch, telling classmates they weren't in her best interest — until an English teacher read her writing out loud to the class and said her name like it mattered. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Cyndy tells Lori Saitz how one adult's genuine interest can redirect a kid's entire life, and what she now teaches other teenagers to watch for in the adults around them. What You'll Take Away Why one small, genuine act of attention from an adult can move a kid's entire trajectoryWhat made Straight Incorporated function like a coercive cult, according to Cyndy's accountThe difference between coaching and therapy, and why that distinction matters for teenagers specificallyWhat teenagers actually need (autonomy) versus what they usually get (control and direction)The one thing Cyndy tells every teenager to watch for in the adults around them Guest Bio Cyndy Etler is a homeless, incarcerated, suicidal kid turned teen life coach and author. She was put on earth to bring out the champ in kids who have been counted out. She is the author of two memoirs, Dead Inside and We Can't Be Friends, and narrates Season 2 of Robert Downey Jr.'s podcast The Sunshine Place, covering the full history of Straight Incorporated. Those seeking non-judgmental, evidence-based support for teens and young adults can book a consultation with her at theteenlifecoach.com. Chapters & Key Timestamps 07:00Choosing foster care at 13 — the choice at the police station 09:00Janice House: the first adults who gave her a choice and respected the answer 10:30Hit by lightning at 14: walking to the corner store and knowing her purpose 13:30Straight Incorporated: the warehouse, the ACLU verdict, 16 months, 250 kids 18:30Five months before she could speak to her mother, with a script and an observer 19:00Coming out brainwashed, and telling kids they weren't in her best interest 21:00The English teacher who read her writing to the class and said her name 24:30What the teacher taught without knowing it: one drop of water and a dying plant 27:00What teenagers actually need versus what they usually get: autonomy vs. control 29:30Coaching vs. therapy: no DSM-5, no IEP goals, just what do you want to change 31:30The one adult who listens without wanting something in return Resources Mentioned Book: Dead Inside by Cyndy EtlerBook: We Can't Be Friends by Cyndy EtlerPodcast: The Sunshine Place, Season 2 (Robert Downey Jr.'s podcast, narrated by Cyndy)Song: My Prerogative by Bobby Brown — youtube.com/watch?v=5cDLZqe735k Connect With Cyndy Etler Coaching: theteenlifecoach.com Author site & books: cyndyetler.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cyndy-etler-med-icf-acc-b9149535 Facebook: facebook.com/CyndyTheTeenLifeCoach Instagram: @cyndyetler Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 237: Rob Scheer — on foster care and what one adult's attention can do for a kid's entire life. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Scott Doggett spent 30 years in corporate America, first running hotel and resort operations, then leading learning and development teams up to vice president. He was, by every external measure, successful. Then came his first layoff at the end of 2023, six months of searching that led nowhere, and a panic attack on the exact anniversary of the day he was let go. That night he prayed and, for the first time in his life, truly surrendered. The next morning, a LinkedIn job posting he almost didn't open led to a director role at a Christian nonprofit that matched everything he'd spent a decade building. Nine months later, he was laid off again. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Scott tells Lori Saitz why the second layoff didn't feel like a setback, and what he built from it: National ALD, a movement to help leaders see their people as priceless human beings instead of resources to be managed. What You'll Take Away Why most leaders spend their energy on the wrong third of their teamHow the language of management — 'resources,' 'assets' — quietly changes how leaders treat peopleThe exact mental exercise Scott uses to change how he sees someone in the momentWhy AI makes human connection the defining leadership skill of the next decade, not less importantWhat the Ebenezer Scrooge workshop experience forces leaders to confront about their own legacy Guest Bio Scott Doggett has spent more than 30 years helping leaders understand a simple truth: people are not problems to solve, they're people to serve. He is the Founder and Chief Servant Leader of the National Academy of Leadership Development (National ALD), author of Priceless! See People Differently. Lead People Better., and leader of a growing national movement to rehumanize the workplace through people-first leadership. Alongside a growing faculty of leadership experts across the country, Scott helps organizations create cultures where people feel valued, trusted, and inspired to do their best work. Chapters & Key Timestamps 01:33The label problem: why calling people 'resources' and 'assets' changes how we treat them 07:00The Gallup numbers: roughly 30% engaged, half apathetic, and a smaller group working against you 09:00Scott's fine-but-not-fine moment: VP title, the layoff, and the six-month wilderness journey 11:30The panic attack on the six-month anniversary, and the prayer that followed 12:00The LinkedIn email the next morning, and why he almost didn't open it 14:00What he saw at the nonprofit that he had never seen in 30 years of corporate life 19:00The mirror exercise: changing the label from 'resource' to 'priceless human being' 20:00The boat analogy: three rowing hard, five barely dipping oars, two rowing backwards 26:00AI, stress, and why the future of leadership is human connection 29:00The Ebenezer Scrooge experience: past, present, future — what do you want to be known for? Resources Mentioned National ALD: nationalald.com — national workshop tour, executive retreats, and the bookBook: Priceless! See People Differently. Lead People Better. by Scott DoggettFree Resource: Priceless Leadership Assessment — NationalALD.com/assessmentSong: Lose Yourself by Eminem — youtube.com/watch?v=xFYQQPAOz7Y Connect With Scott Doggett Company: National Academy of Leadership Development (National ALD) Website: nationalald.com Free Resource: Priceless Leadership Assessment — NationalALD.com/assessment LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/scottdoggett Instagram: instagram.com/nationalald2025 X (Twitter): x.com/AcademyLD Book: Priceless! See People Differently. Lead People Better. Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 237: Rob Scheer — on leadership without a title and building something out of a personal collapse. Research & Sources Scott cites Gallup research showing roughly 30% of the workforce highly engaged, with the remainder split between disengaged and actively disengaged. Current Gallup global data (State of the Global Workplace, 2025-2026) puts worldwide engagement closer to 20-21%, with the roughly 30% figure more closely matching historical U.S.-specific Gallup reporting. Both figures point to the same underlying finding: a clear majority of the workforce is not fully engaged. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Content Note: This episode includes discussion of childhood abuse, foster care, and homelessness. Rob Scheer was thrown out at 18 with a trash bag. He spent his senior year of high school homeless, sleeping in the bathroom of the taco restaurant where he worked and on library beanbag chairs after closing. He joined the Navy to have somewhere to go, and was medically discharged after years of childhood abuse caught up with his body. He spent 28 years building mortgage companies before he looked at his four children in designer clothes and realized he had never taught them empathy. That realization became Comfort Cases, a nonprofit that has now delivered over 320,000 backpacks of essential supplies to children entering foster care. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Rob tells Lori Saitz the full arc — the teacher who believed in him when no one else did, the fabricated resume that got him hired, and the five-year-old son whose idea about a blanket changed what every backpack now includes. What You'll Take Away Why one teacher's quiet belief can outlast decades of a kid not knowing anyone noticedWhat Rob's five-year-old son understood about a blanket that no adult on the team had thought ofWhy empathy has to be taught deliberately — it doesn't develop on its ownWhat leadership actually looks like without a title, according to RobHow to help close the gap between 40,000 cases delivered and roughly 168,000 children entering foster care each year Guest Bio Rob Scheer is the founder and CEO of Comfort Cases, a nonprofit on a mission to eliminate trash bags from the foster care system and replace them with dignity, one backpack at a time. A former foster youth who experienced homelessness in high school, Rob served in the U.S. Navy, built a career in banking, and turned his lived experience into national advocacy. He is a 2018 CNN Hero, author of A Forever Family, and delivered the commencement address at Lynn University, where he also received an honorary doctorate. He is a husband and father of five, all adopted from foster care. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00How Rob's team pitched this episode 01:30The teachers who shaped him, and the book signing reunion with Mrs. Boley 05:00Aging out of foster care at 18: the trash bag at the door 07:30Senior year homeless: the taco bathroom, the library beanbags 09:30Joining the Navy to have somewhere to go 13:00Hitchhiking down Route 7, the Salvation Army suit, and the fabricated resume 17:00Looking at four children in designer clothes and realizing something had to change 18:00What five-year-old Grayson said about the blanket in the backpack 19:00320,000 cases delivered to all 50 states, DC, Puerto Rico, and the UK 23:00Derek Jeter published his memoir, and The Ellen Show followed 25:00How many children enter foster care every day in the US 28:00Leadership: not a title, not followers, not waiting for someone else to fix it 29:00How you can help: used books, hotel toiletries, yarn for a women's correctional facility Resources Mentioned Comfort Cases: comfortcases.orgBook: A Forever Family by Rob Scheer — signed copies available, all proceeds go directly to Comfort CasesProgram: Give Back Box (UPS) — ship 70 lbs of books for $20, Comfort Cases packs and delivers backpacks locallySong: Simply the Best by Tina Turner — youtube.com/watch?v=GC5E8ie2pdM Connect With Rob Scheer Website: comfortcases.org LinkedIn (Rob): linkedin.com/in/rob-scheer-27482653 LinkedIn (Comfort Cases): linkedin.com/company/comfort-cases-inc Facebook: facebook.com/comfortcases Instagram: @comfortcases Email: [email protected] Book: A Forever Family — signed copies benefit Comfort Cases directly Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 239: Cyndy Etler — on foster care, institutional environments, and what one adult's genuine interest can do for a kid's trajectory. Research & Sources Rob cites approximately 740 children entering foster care in the US daily and roughly 380,000 in the system at any time. Current federal data (AFCARS, FY2024, Administration for Children and Families) shows approximately 329,000 children in care as of September 2024, with about 168,000 entering during the year (roughly 460-470 per day). Rob's figures reflect a commonly cited, somewhat higher estimate closer to the system's 2017-2018 peak of approximately 437,000; both figures point to the same underlying scale of need. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Jodi Scott co-founded Green Goo, a plant-based first aid brand, after a bike fall led her past an abandoned Southern estate and a first aid cabinet she could no longer justify during her pregnancy. What started as herbs grown in an Idaho backyard and sold at farmers markets grew into a national retail presence. Then she sold the company to what looked like the right financial partner. Weeks later, that partner's founder was raided by federal investigators, and Jodi had less than 24 hours to lay off her entire team — her mom, her sister, her husband, her brother-in-law, and her best friend from college. On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Jodi tells Lori Saitz what it took to rebuild after that collapse, including the coach who refused to let her cancel a session she could no longer afford, and the two-year fight to buy her own company back. What You'll Take Away Why mental fitness has to be trained deliberately, not just reached for during a crisisHow a coach's every-three-hours presence practice rebuilt Jodi's capacity to make decisionsWhy the answers you need are usually already in you, if you can get into the right state to access themWhat it actually costs to build a national brand from a farmers market tableWhy anticipating the worst contractually protects you more than optimism does Guest Bio Jodi Scott is the co-founder of Green Goo, a plant-based first aid and herbal wellness company rooted in the belief that nature gives us powerful tools for healing. She blends her background in health, herbalism, psychology, and entrepreneurship to help people reconnect with their bodies, their resilience, and the natural world. After navigating burnout, crisis, and the very human experience of rebuilding, Jodi brings honest, grounded wisdom to conversations about nervous system healing, recovery, and purpose. When she's not talking herbs, healing, or business, she's usually on the farm in Colorado. Chapters & Key Timestamps 00:00How Jodi found the show and why she wanted to be on it 09:30The bike fall, the overgrown driveway, and the phone call to her grandmother 15:00A pregnant Jodi, a first aid cabinet full of chemicals, and the idea for Green Goo 18:00Why they renamed the entire brand Green Goo, because customers already called it that 23:30The pandemic pivot from retail to online, and why they almost did not survive 25:00Selling the company to find a financial partner, and what happened next 26:30The acquirer gets raided by the feds — 24 hours, entire team terminated 30:30The coach who refused the cancellation and started a mental fitness practice 32:30Micro-meditations every three hours, and how presence rebuilt her decision-making Resources Mentioned Website: greengoo.comOffer: 15% off with code WELCOME15 at greengoo.comSong: Ready For It? by Taylor Swift — youtube.com/watch?v=wIft-t-MQuE Connect With Jodi Scott Website: greengoo.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jodi-scott-7234331b8 Facebook: facebook.com/GreenGooHelps Instagram: instagram.com/greengoohelps Offer: 15% off with code WELCOME15 Continue With Lori Website: zenrabbit.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Email: [email protected] Invitation From Lori This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication. Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations. Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace. If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/ Related Conversation Episode 238: Scott Doggett — on rebuilding after a sudden professional collapse and what it takes to find clarity afterward. About FINE is a 4-Letter Word FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week. Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.