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[00:00:00] Larry Lincoln: And I had some good mentors along the way. My very first supervisor in the military, his name was Charles Benton. I'll never forget him. He told me, he said, look - there are keys to success. You want to be professional. You don't have to know everything, but if you don't know it, be willing to find out and always be available, turn situations into not a no, but try to find win situations for people. [00:00:24] Larry Lincoln: And those are the things that have always stuck with me. +++++++++++++++++++++= Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Larry Lincoln. Larry and I have been friends for, I don't know, 15-20 years.  Larry, do you recall our first meeting? [00:00:35] Larry Lincoln: Yeah, I think it was back when I was still in Colorado Springs at one of the ministries there. So yeah, it's been about that length of time. [00:00:44] Tommy Thomas: And I remember when we had dinner, you and I, and your wife, and like my friend Bo Patton, the football player at Vanderbilt told me when he met me and my wife, he said, Tommy, you out kicked your coverage. And so, I'm going to say having had dinner with Dixie, you definitely out kicked your coverage in that merger. [00:01:03] Larry Lincoln: Amen, brother. So true. So true. [00:01:06] Tommy Thomas: Larry's been into the Communications and Public Relations field I guess his entire adult life. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to get him on the call. We'd say we've known each other a long time. I've watched his career. He is currently working with Compassion International. He’ll tell us a little bit about his work there, but Larry, take me back to your early days.  What two or three experiences do you remember from childhood that made you into the man you are today? [00:01:32] Larry Lincoln: Wow. Yeah, my childhood was a little atypical, Tommy, not the standard one. As a kid my parents weren't together. They split up when I was a young age, and they did one thing other than having us, but what they decided is they knew that things weren't going to work, and they wanted the kids, there were three of us at the time, to be in more stable homes. I was born in Martinsburg, West Virginia, and my folks sent me up to live with grandparents in Newcastle, Pennsylvania, a little town outside of Pittsburgh. And growing up there, man, it was so special because my grandmother was a God-fearing woman. We called her Mother Mary, but she was the one who just embraced me. [00:02:14] Larry Lincoln: I'll never forget as a three-year-old, I remember sitting on the floor learning to read with blocks. She was just so invested in my life. And so, growing up together in that home and having her just pour into me was something I'll never forget. She was just a godsend. She was ahead of her time. She was very into trying to shape and mold me into being a godly man. She always used to tell me, I'd ask her as a young kid, Mother Mary, what do you want me to be? And she said, son, love the Lord and be a good man. And that was all that she ever asked of me. So, remembering growing up in that home, growing up in our neighborhood, the church was called St. John's United Holy Church. And she made sure that as a youngster, I was in that church and that was like an extended family for me, they were so close and so nurturing and loving and then finally entering the military. I think the military was easy compared to growing up in Mother Mary's house. [00:03:10] Larry Lincoln: The military that esprit de corps, that structure, that being a part of something bigger than yourself, that really appealed to me. So those are a few experiences, I believe, shaped who I am today. [00:03:24] Tommy Thomas: How'd you get from high school to the military? Was there a big decision mark there? [00:03:29] Larry Lincoln: No what it was I went off to college following high school for a brief period of time, about a year, but my grandmother was ill during my college, my high school time. And so, I

[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Our guests today are Burt Rosen and Liz Galloway. Burt's the former CEO of the Knox Area Rescue Ministries, or KARM as it's known in the area. [00:00:09] Tommy Thomas: And Liz is the Senior Director of Food Services. Burt was a guest, gosh, back in year one at Thanksgiving, I think, probably around episode 10 or 15. I have used this Shark Tank question a lot in my questions of people. And a few episodes back, we highlighted some of the responses and he called back and said, we actually did a Shark Tank thing at KARM. [00:00:35] Tommy Thomas: And I thought now that it would be great to have something that was real-time on the podcast. Burt and Liz, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:00:44] Burt Rosen: Thank you, Tommy. Good to be here. [00:00:46] Liz Galloway: Thank you. [00:00:47] Tommy Thomas: So Burt or Liz, I'm going to turn it over to y'all, but how did this thing get started? [00:00:53] Burt Rosen: Let me take the lead there Tommy, and then Liz will chime in where it makes sense. So let me take a step back. Before coming to KARM, I spent 17 years with Prison Fellowship Ministries. And when I joined KARM, I brought with me this desire to always want to innovate. [00:01:14] Burt Rosen: Always looking for new ideas. And one of the things I learned, not so much from prison fellowship, but from my time in the nonprofit arena in general, particularly in ministries, which is yes, it's a nonprofit, but it seems to be a little bit of a different animal was that there was a reluctance to spend money on innovation. [00:01:34] Burt Rosen: And a reluctance to spend money on employee training and development. Those always seem to be the things that would go to the back seat. And so, in my early years at KARM, we had more than our share of financial challenges digging out of a hole that the ministry had managed to get itself into. And so, once we got there, fast forward a few years later, we found ourselves in a wonderful position. [00:02:01] Burt Rosen: God had blessed the work immensely. And so we were now in a position of not only being in the black and staying in the black but having a few extra dollars to look at how we best spend to advance the ministry. And so our board chair, Dan Hurst, you referenced in fact, he and I did that podcast call way back when. [00:02:23] Burt Rosen: We talked about wouldn't it be great to use some of this money to further enhance ministry opportunities. And that's all Dan needed to say. And now I'll admit that I did a ready-fire aim here. I didn't go back and talk to the senior team and say, hey, wouldn't this be a great idea? I was just off and running. [00:02:44] Burt Rosen: And so, I remembered that first, I was a Shark Tank fan. Always have been for as long as I've been watching it. I also remembered those days as a kid when I watched the TV show The Millionaire and, I forget his name, the actor. He would come on and he'd say, my name is Michael Anthony. [00:03:00] Burt Rosen: I represent the late John Beresford Tipton and he goes through his spiel of giving away a million dollars. And I thought, wouldn't it be great if we could marry The Millionaire and Shark Tank and put out to our staff an opportunity to come up with KARM’s next million-dollar idea? And we set aside the funds to be able to fund whatever ideas might come up. [00:03:28] Burt Rosen: And we'll come to that a little bit later on. But with that, we sent that video out to employees and invited them to participate in something that would go across the ministry because I knew that people like Liz had these great dreams, these great ideas of things they'd love to see happen, but often didn't get the opportunity. [00:03:50] Burt Rosen: This Shark Tank idea provided that opportunity. And so we put it out and Liz, you can certainly respond because you were on the receiving end of that, that first initial invitation. And then I'll pick it back up Tommy after Liz shares a little bit about

Tommy Thomas: [00:00:00] My guests today are Michael Marquardt and Bob Tiede. Michael is Professor Emeritus of Human and Organizational Learning at George Washington University, and the author of 27 books on the topics of leadership, global teams, and action learning. Bob Tiede is the CEO of leadingwithquestions.com, a blog followed by people in more than 190 countries. Tommy Thomas: He also serves on the U.S. leadership development team for Cru and is the author of five books, including Great Leaders Ask Questions. Some of our listeners will remember Bob from earlier episodes when we discussed leader development within Cru. Gentlemen, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. Bob Tiede: Happy to be with you, Tommy. Tommy Thomas: Talking to the two of you today reminds me of an early experience with Nathan DiGesare, a musician and a videographer in Nashville.  Nathan has recorded probably 200 videos for my company, so I've been in his house and his studio on countless occasions, but early in the relationship, we were doing some voiceovers at his house.  We finished the work, and I noticed this Steinway Grand Piano sitting in the corner. So, I strolled over and sat down and did my best rendition of Bridge Over Troubled Water. And then I think I segued into Last Date by Floyd Kramer. Little did I know that Nathan had been trained at Indiana University and was a graduate of the Juilliard School of Music. And I'm not sure if I'd have known that if I'd have been so audacious to sit at his grand piano and play those songs. So, talking with you guys, yeah, I feel like here I am asking the questions and you two are the master of the great questions. So, this is going to be fun. Bob Tiede: We're looking forward to it. Tommy Thomas:  How did the two of you get to know each other and begin collaborating? Michael Marquardt: Bob, I think you can tell that story. Bob Tiede: I will. In 2006, my wife loves to go to bookstores. She goes all over the bookstore. She knows when she's done, she'll find me still in the leadership section. And what I usually do is try to find two, or three books I've never seen before, find a chair, sit down, and peruse them to see if I'm going to buy one of them. In 2006, I found this book, the first edition of Leading with Questions by Dr. Michael Marquardt. Perusing only a few pages, I said, this one's going home and it was a page-turner. I had no idea. I love books. I eat books for breakfast. Probably every leadership book I've ever read there's been a morsel in there. I had no idea that this would change my leadership forever. Actually, set me on a new path. I was already on the U.S. leadership development team for Cru. I began to teach out of it. The response was just amazing. Fast forward, to 2012, I start a blog and I'm thinking when I start the blog, I don't want to do just another leadership blog. I want to because there are so many good ones, I'd be a small fish in a big ocean. So I asked the question, was there a niche of leadership I could blog on? And as soon as I had that question, it was like, Oh, it'd be something with this leading with questions. So I go to WordPress. I've never blogged before and WordPress guides you through. The first thing they ask is what do you want the blog to be called. In other words, let's search and see if the URL is available. On a lark and I smiled as I did it, I typed in the title of the book, leading with questions, thinking that certainly the author or publisher may have tied it up already, but it was available. And at the cheapest price, like 29 a year, so I grab it. I'm saying I had a little queasy feeling wondering this guy, this author, Dr. Michael Marquardt, how would he feel when he finds out there's a blog by the same title of his book? So, I decided I’d blog for several months, and get some content. Then I crafted, I thought a very diplomatic email to Dr. Michael Marquardt, sharing that his book had changed my leadership, thanking him for

[00:00:00] David Gyerston: What motivates her or him to want to be the Chair of the Board? Some Board Chairs are shadow presidents. They really want to run the institution. And other Board Chairs are too disconnected. They want the title but they don't want to have to deal with anything on an ongoing basis. Call me if the place is on fire, but other than that, let's not have a relationship. ++++++++++++++++++ [00:00:21] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with Dr. David Gyerston. In addition to his many other accomplishments, David has been the president of three different universities, Regent University, Asbury University, and Taylor University. Each of these schools were in a different stage of the institutional life cycle when David arrived. These three experiences have honed his senior leadership skills. Additionally, when one is president of three different universities, one gets a lot of Board Governance experience. That's where our focus will be today. You mentioned earlier, the board, the CEO-Board Chair relationship. I'm going to segue over into board service because you've probably had as much experience in board service in the nonprofit sector as most of the guests that I've interviewed. And let's just ask a basic question. What is the function or the role of the Board Chair? The Board Chair serves as the linkage between the President and the Board of Trustees [00:01:23] David Gyerston: The Board Chair really serves as the linkage between the President and the Board of Trustees. And that relationship is probably one of the most important in terms of successful executive leadership and board governance. And right now, I have several clients where I'm coaching both the new president and the board chair together. In helping them think through and work through their relationships. It used to be that boards of trustees met a couple of times a year, and they heard a bunch of reports, and if everything was going well, they had a wonderful reunion time, and ate well, and then went home. Now Boardsmanship is 24/7. And much more is expected of board members and the challenges facing our nonprofit faith-based boards have never been greater. As a result, then the understanding of how the board works with the CEO and the senior leadership team and particularly how that relationship supports that between the board chair and the CEO has never been more important. So in my three university presidencies to this day, my board chairs are still my best friends. Because we became even though technically he represented my boss, we essentially walked this together and became - he was my sounding board to say, I think given the executive parameters that the Board has given me, I have the authority to do such and such, but I just want to bounce that off of you. Is this something that you think maybe the board should be informed about? Before I actually take the action, or do you think I should seek counsel from the board or a committee of the board before I take this action? Or do you think this is an action that the board itself, even though it hasn't defined that I must report back to them before making this decision? A lot of times this is stuff that, you build this railroad laying the track in front of the oncoming locomotive. You don't always know if you've got the right track laid out there. And so, I think that relationship of partners together, collaborators together.  Too many CEOs see boards as something they have to overcome or manage and that's just the wrong attitude. Boards are there to collaborate with you as the CEO in achieving the mission and holding you accountable and empowering and supporting and enabling you for you to lead in the basic achievement of that mission. And so, I had weekly calls with my board chairs. I recommend that now that every board chair and president touch base at least for half an hour every week, just as an update.  And it's more than just opera

[00:00:00] David Gyerston: So much of this begins with the reality that these presidential roles are too big for any single person to manage. We're always looking for the next Moses or David. And the reality is, there is no Moses or David anymore that can possibly handle everything that needs to be done. So I've stopped thinking about finding presidents and started thinking about teams that can make up the office of the president, which is a different perspective. +++++++++++++++++++ [00:00:28] Tommy Thomas (2): Our guest today is Dr. David Gyerston. David completed bachelor's level studies in theology at Lauren Park College in Ontario, Canada. Took his BA in Philosophy and Religion and Psychology from Spring Arbor University. He has Masters level studies in College Student Personnel and Sociology from Michigan State.  Masters level studies in Comparative Higher Education from the University of Toronto and a Ph.D. in Higher Education Administration and Management from Michigan State University. All of these degrees were completed by a man who never graduated high school. At least not the way most of us did. In fact, one of his high school guidance counselors told him that he wasn't smart enough to graduate and he should drop out and get a job in the gold mines or the lumberyards. From this inauspicious beginning, David went on to be the President of three different universities. He and I have been friends for at least 20 years, and it's an honor to have him as our guest today. [00:01:33] Tommy Thomas:  Before we take it too deep of a dive into your professional career, take us back to your childhood. What two or three experiences do you remember as having shaped you best? [00:01:47] David Gyerston: Tommy, I am Canadian. I was born in Toronto, but I was raised in Timmins, which is about a hundred miles south of Hudson's Bay in a gold mining and lumbering community right on the Quebec border. And childhood was difficult. My dad was an alcoholic, and my mom had some really severe emotional and mental and physical problems. So, I ran away from home when I was 13. And a Free Methodist minister and his wife, who were pastoring a little congregation up there in the Great White North took me in off the streets. I lived with them for the next five years and had come to faith through their witness and ministry when I was about 14. But still had a lot of trouble. I never graduated high school, and don't have a high school diploma to this day. And one of the most profound experiences I had, other than my conversion experience, under Jim and Marion Tutelage, was my high school guidance counselor calling me in when I was 15 years old and telling me that, these were his words, David, you're just too stupid to be in school. You need to drop out and get a job in the gold mines or in the lumber yards, which were the two main industries in northern Canada at that time. And so I talked to Jim and Marion about it and they said, no, persist. The guidance counselor was correct. I flunked out in the 12th grade, never finished. But Jim and Marion felt strongly that God had a plan for my life. I didn't know what it would be, but the Free Methodist denomination had a Bible school and residential high school near Toronto, and Jim and Marion talked them into letting me in for one semester. So, I had to take some high school courses, and then started on the Bachelor of Theology degree, the three-year program, to begin preparing for pastoral ministry. And that's when I really came alive, not just spiritually, but also intellectually and academically. I really fell in love with the study of scripture and the disciplines of learning. And so those would have been a couple of major turning points for me that shaped me in my childhood.  I had the privilege of leading my dad to the Lord at the Salvation Army drop-in center in Toronto. He was out on the streets. I'd been pastoring in the city for a couple of years and went down to help the Salvati

Tommy Thomas: Three years ago, I started a tradition on the podcast. I'm interviewing someone from the music industry for the episode being released the week of Christmas. My logic is that most people probably aren't doing much professional development this week. And rather than not have a release, I would default to something that is near and dear to my heart. I started taking piano lessons when I was seven. In high school, I played in a local garage band. In college, I sang folk music, and, in my twenties, I sang with a bluegrass group in Birmingham. In fact, one of the things on my bucket list is to play a set with the cover group, Jay and the Elders from Birmingham. So, Jim Blackman, if you're listening, I'm waiting on my invitation. Our guest this week is Dr. David Tolley, the Associate Professor and Director of The Music Industry Program at Delaware State University. David is a very talented composer, arranger, producer, and instructor. I believe you're going to love his story.​ [00:01:08] Tommy Thomas: Before we take too deep of a dive into your professional career, take us back into your childhood. What's your happiest memory? [00:01:17] David Tolley: Happiest memories of childhood. I'm one of eight kids. I'm number seven. And we were born, not really on a farm, but in Dublin, Ohio. [00:01:25] David Tolley: We had an apple orchard, chicken coop, and things like that, but it wasn't a full fledged farm. But we used to play Cowboys and Indians, hide and go seek. And playing with all my brothers and sisters probably was one of my favorite memories. [00:01:39] Tommy Thomas: What about the gifts your parents gave you? What's the greatest gift you remember? [00:01:44] David Tolley: Greatest gift or appearance? Probably the electric football game where you put the players on there and the game vibrates. Yeah. That was that. I had to think about that. I haven't thought about that in a long time yet. [00:01:56] Tommy Thomas:: Wow. We had one of those that was fun. [00:01:58] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. And what was high school like? [00:02:01] David Tolley: I went to Worthington High School, and it was great. I wasn't in the marching band or the choir because I was a pianist, and in junior year, Columbus started a brand-new performing arts school called Fort Hayes, and it was modeled after the one in New York and then one went down into Dallas. So it was experiential Columbus and it's still going, but went there my junior and senior year and half of the day to Worthington. So it was a lot of fun. I started composing for some theater things and other things. And I was valedictorian of the class when I graduated. But the only regret I have about that is I cut off my social life from my high school friends. Because I went down there at noontime and then was downtown Columbus. And you know how after high school, a lot of people, they have afterschool activities, and I was out of town. [00:02:56] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. I guess when you enrolled in Ohio State you knew you were into music by then. [00:03:01] David Tolley Yeah, I played sports, Tommy, and believe it or not, I used to play football and was quarterback and I played basketball and baseball, but I didn't grow to be huge, you know, like 6’ 2”, 6’ 3”. And so it started to hurt in middle school. So I got back into music heavy and I was just practicing all the time and I was lucky to get this pianist, Richard Telly Curtis, and he was head of the piano division at Ohio State and I got him in high school. I don't know how I got him. But he said he took me because I had a good smile. I don't know. I practiced all the time and that's performing arts school. They just kind of let me go and I would go down to the practice rooms and just practice all my whole time there. So I entered Ohio State and got a double bachelor's in piano performance and composition, and then got my master's in theory and composition before I moved out to Los Angeles. [00:03:55] Tommy Thomas

[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: For the past six months or so I've been asking our guests the question “If there was a nonprofit version of Shark Tank and you were on the panel of potential early-stage investors, what questions would you need to have answered before you’d make an investment?”  Well, again, it's just a fun question to ask that has turned into some great information that I believe people who are thinking of starting a nonprofit would find useful. The first force you'll hear is Kristen McClave from Episode 81 - Her Leadership Journey from Johnson and Johnson to Cardone Industries and Beyond. [00:00:38] Christin McClave: Oh, that's a fun question. I think first of all I would really want to understand the leader's background. The team, the person, on Shark Tank, they usually have one other person standing with them. And the Sharks are very interested in where they came from, what their experiences are, how the two or the three of them got together, and the dynamic of them working together and what skills maybe one brings to the table, the other one, fills in the gaps. I'd like to really understand that and know, that there's some experience in them building an organization. I think the other piece to that is really the passion, the drive. What is the problem or the issue the founder or the co-founders are trying to solve and what's driving that? And is that passion or is that issue really going to still be driving them in five years or 10 years? Or is it more of a short-term thing? The other piece, and I think this probably comes from my experience on nonprofit boards that are probably larger than this would be, really understanding the percentage of the budget that would actually be going to the work, the problem solving, the issue resolution, and what percentage of the budget would really be going to administration and or SG&A or overhead, however you want to say it. That may not be important for everybody, all investors, but for me it's the piece that I enjoy digging into from a financial perspective and from an accountability perspective with nonprofits that I either work with or talk to and just understanding, are they managing that equation or that ratio. And also as they get larger, they will certainly have donors, investors, fundraising questions around that in particular. And I think the third thing is I'd like to know, who is mentoring them? How do they have support built around them? Maybe they're an early-stage company, they probably don't have a board yet. But I think in the nonprofit context, it's really important to know those things and to make sure there are people that they've built into their feedback process. Maybe it's just a monthly advisor call that they have with maybe an advisor or a few advisors who meet with them on a regular basis. Because the challenge with a nonprofit, is really thinking through your revenue source. If your revenue is not coming from a product or a service, it’s coming from the fundraising donation side of things. You've really got to build out some people in your network who can help you strategize about that and become really good at that. And I'll say just from personal experience, that's part of why I haven't taken on a leadership role in a nonprofit yet in my career because I feel like you have to feel called to the issue or the problem at hand. If you're going to be in a senior role of a not-for-profit organization, you've really got to have a drive and a passion for that cause. And, number two, you've got to really understand the revenue source is very different in the nonprofit space. And you really have to think about, okay, we're raising money for this cause rather than, hey, this product has this gross margin, it's a whole different mindset shift. And maybe someday I will, but for right now I'm in the for-profit space. But I love supporting and being a mentor and advisor in the nonprofit space and supporting them as much as I can.  [00:04:37]

[00:00:00] Amanda Martin: Team sports just develops this ability to know your role. And surgery is not done by one person. Every person involved in surgery has to do their role well for everything to go well. You have to have every bit of instrumentation that you need. We need the engineers to create interesting new ways for us to heal the human body. We need the biologists to help come up with biologic advances. We need anesthesia. We need the nurses. We need the techs. You every single person, there are 20 people involved in a surgery. And if any one of them isn't there, it's not going to work. Tommy Thomas:  Our guest today is Dr. Amanda Martin, whose practice focuses on arthroscopic surgery of the knee, shoulder, hip, and elbow. Dr. Martin currently sees patients at the Elite Sports Medicine and Orthopedic Center in Nashville and Franklin. Now some of you are probably wondering what an orthoscopic or orthopedic surgeon has to do with the nonprofit leadership. And I think if you'll stick around to the end of this show that'll become clear. I first met Dr. Martin on the 27th of December of 2017. I was experiencing significant pain in my right knee and my family practice doctor referred me to her. After the obligatory x-ray and MRI, she scheduled me for surgery. And later on in April, we decided the left knee needed surgery. So, she did both of them.  Little did I know that I was getting an excellent surgeon, who unlike some surgeons, had a winsome bedside manner. And was a team physician for the United States Women's Soccer Team. Dr. Martin, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:01:40] Amanda Martin: Hi there. Thanks for having me. [00:01:45] Tommy Thomas:  Before we dive too deep into your professional career, I want to go back to your childhood. Give me some thoughts on some highlights of growing up. [00:01:55] Amanda Martin: Oh, man. Oftentimes we'll hear people tell stories and talk about their struggles or things that happened in their childhood that really developed and made them into who they were in the struggle. And I don't have that story. My entire life was outside. Something was always broken.  Something was always cut. I was always in the emergency room to the point where my mom would say she was sure glad my dad worked in said emergency room, or she'd be concerned that people might offer some concern for me. I had the quintessential American happy childhood. I have an amazing family, wonderful mom and dad. And I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My grandfather was a cattle farmer, and my father was a family physician and also an educator. And we just did everything as a family.  My entire life was outside. Something was always broken. Something was always cut. I was always in the emergency room to the point where my mom would say she was sure glad my dad worked and said emergency room or she'd be concerned that people might offer some concern for me. But it was a really idyllic childhood. I grew up in the eighties when you could still go and do as a child freely and have independence. And if you were hungry, you better figure out how to make some food. And so it really developed that sort of independent streak. And I developed it at a young age. I was the youngest child in my family. And so, I had a lot of downtime. My mom said always a nose in a book and always, doing something relatively ill advised when it came to daring and sporting type maneuvers. But it really gave me that independent streak as an early age. [00:03:10] Tommy Thomas:   What would you say was the happiest memory? [00:03:14] Amanda Martin: Oh, there's too many to count. I can remember as clear as day trying to catch Santa Claus. We're in the Christmas Advent season and just wanting more than anything to see Santa Claus. And sleeping under the Christmas tree with my little dog Barney. And somehow, the magic of Christmas happened all around me while I slept under the Christmas tree that night. And I woke up to find all

[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Philanthropeneur Terry Esau. Terry spent most of his career writing and producing music for TV commercials. Target, McDonald's, Pepsi, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Dairy Queen, Golden Grahams, and everything in between. He worked with celebrities like Amy Grant, Jim Henson, Alice Cooper and Prince. After writing over a thousand commercial scoring films and writing for TV shows, he decided to take a break from the music business. And tried his hand at writing words. He's the author of three books and one novel.  Terry is a certified bike-a-holic. In 2010, he started a nonprofit organization called Free Bicycles for Kidz and has given away over 150,000 bicycles to kids in need. He holds the Guinness World Record for most bikes collected in one day, nearly 10,000, in Minneapolis. Free Bikes for Kidz is now active in 20 cities with a goal of being in a hundred cities and a million bikes given away in the next five years. Recently, Terry cofounded the new nonprofit Free Guitars for Kids.  They partner with music industry giants such as Gibson and Fender and other music leaders to put guitars in the hands of deserving young people. Before we get too deep into your music and professional career, take me back to your childhood or your upbringing. What was that like for you? [00:01:35] Terry Esau:  I grew up in a tiny little town of 2,000 people called Mountain Lake, where there's no mountain and a man-made lake in southern Minnesota. So yeah, small town. I don't know. It was a typical small-town upbringing, just hanging out, riding my bike everywhere after school and I had a paper route because I got paid to ride my bike. My brother and I would build ramps and we'd collect neighborhood kids and have them lie down on the street and we'd see how many kids we could jump over. [00:02:15] Tommy Thomas: Y'all must be pretty good salesmen to get somebody to do that. [00:02:17] Terry Esau:  Yeah we usually made it. So it was that, and then I went to college at a school here in Minneapolis, Christian Liberal Arts School, Northwestern. Got a music education degree, which technically I've never used. But I used the music aspect of it for the rest of my career, so we can talk about that when you're ready. [00:02:45] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into music?  What was your first instrument? [00:02:47] Terry Esau:  I got a guitar when I was, I don't know how old, probably in sixth or seventh grade, through Sears Roebuck. A Silver Tone guitar. It was not a great guitar, but it was all I needed and I played trumpet in in middle school and high school band. And then I just continued on that. When I got to college, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was interested in music and I played in a few bands and stuff like that. So, I continued in the music degree and then, through a kind of interesting circumstances, I ended up discovering what my career would be in music, but it had nothing to do with music education. [00:03:35] Tommy Thomas: What’s something that people might be surprised to know about you? [00:03:41] Terry Esau: Other than riding my bike across the country, I got to mix one of my songs with Prince. I did a Target Christmas campaign with Amy Grant. I did a Sam Goody campaign with Alice Cooper. I got to do some Sesame Street music with Jim Henson.  And then my nonprofits.  I started two nonprofits that have given away 150,000 bicycles and now we're doing the same thing with guitars. So yeah, I've gotten three books published. I have a very strange career trajectory. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. [00:04:27] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into making music for a living? When did you realize that, wow, I could make a living doing this? [00:04:31] Terry Esau: So here's an interesting story. My first day in college, my first day in music theory class, our professor said here's your assignment. Go home, write a jingle about milk, and come back to

[00:00:03] Kayla Bradham: I was the Green Bay Packers caterer, their bartender.  I worked in the lunchroom. I worked in the dishwashing room, wherever they were. I was going to be sure to be there. And they really did have a great impact in my life. These are the years, we're talking about the early mid-nineties. I went to college at St. Norbert from ‘91 – ‘94. Packers were doing great. Those guys invested in me. They helped me believe in myself. They spoke life into me. They told me that I was a hard worker and they saw me. These guys didn't have to do that. There was nothing in their contract that said, be nice to the college kid. It's that these guys were guys and they cared, and they had a spirit of humanity and that really should be the message for all of us right now to not get too high on your high horse that you're always looking down, but instead pulling other people up with you. [00:00:59] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Kayla Bradham. Kayla is the Executive Vice President of Sports Philanthropy Network. She wears a lot of hats. In addition to her day job with Sports Philanthropy Network, she serves on the boards of City on a Hill Tackle Hunger, the Souper Bowl of Caring, and we're spelling that S O U P E R Bowl, and she's going to give us a little bit more about that. And then on the Michael Montgomery Foundation, the Heart of Michael. She's a member of the NFL Alumni Association, and last but the most important thing, she's a mother of eight children. She took her BA in Communications and Media and Theater from St. Norbert's College. Kayla, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:01:44] Kayla Bradham: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. [00:01:45] Tommy Thomas:  Before we jump into to your story, I want to know a little bit about your organization.  Tell us about Sports Philanthropy Network. [00:01:53] Kayla Bradham: About four and a half years ago, Tommy, my partner and I were trying to figure out how to use our collective experience, which is a lot of experience. We're both pretty old to find a way to create social impact through sports. We realized that there were so many people, athletes, business executives, nonprofits who wanted to create impact, but they really didn't know each other or have a way to connect. So, we decided to start our own nonprofit sports philanthropy network to build stronger, healthier, and more inclusive communities through sports. [00:02:30] Tommy Thomas: You’re four and a half years into this venture now. Starting a nonprofit is just like starting a business. You invest everything into it. You work 15 hours a day. You put your legacy money into it. [00:02:33] Kayla Bradham:  Yes, sir. Booth's rolling. So far so good? Starting a nonprofit is just like starting a business. You invest everything into it. You work 15 hours a day. You put your legacy money into it, your life savings into it.  But I always say if it's your vision, it's your mission. [00:02:55] Tommy Thomas: Those that listen to us pretty regularly will know that I always open my questions with a question about someone's childhood and early life. And certainly, we'll lead with that today. But I think for the people that are listening, it'll be a little bit different response coming from you today. One writer described Kayla's life story as a testament to resilience, determination, and the profound belief in the transformative power of sports. Yeah, take us into your background. [00:03:23] Kayla Bradham:   First of all, thank you. And that's a question that really is dear to my heart because it is my why. When I was a little girl my mom and I lived in extreme rural poverty. And to give the listeners an idea of that, Tommy, some people will say, we're so poor, we didn't have a car and I'll come back and I'll say we were so poor my mom didn't have a driver's license. That means I paid somebody to drive me to college, right? When you're that little kid, I don't know, what is that secon

[00:00:00] John Ashmen: You need to be a board chair who understands the board role. So, intellect, respect, humility. Again, I think those are important. There are a lot of Board Chairs out there who really don't know the role of a Board Chair in a nonprofit. I've seen so many organizations that are in turmoil because the board chair has entered and sees himself or herself as the person who is in charge of the organization. And the Board Chair is only a spokesperson for the entire board. +++++++++++++++++ [00:00:37] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with John Ashmen, Past President & CEO of Citygate Network. John was named President & CEO of Citygate Network in 2007 and served for 16-plus years. He stepped down as president on July 31st, 2023. When we recorded this conversation, John, the new Citygate CEO, and the board were in the final weeks of the transition to new leadership. From my perspective, the transition was well-planned and executed. John will share some of that with us. The Citygate Network has over 300 member organizations. So, you can imagine the number of leadership transitions John has observed. And the number of boards he's interacted with. Let's pick up on the conversation where we left off last week. If it’s not too personal, what was going on in your heart? Obviously, you're going through a transition now. You told your board at some time. Can you give us a little bit of backdrop to how that happened and how it's gone? [00:01:48] John Ashmen: Yeah. So I've basically had three 15-year careers. I was 15 years as the CEO of Christian Camp and Conference Center in New Jersey. We've already talked about that. Then 15 years as the COO, Vice President, Director of Member Services at Christian Camp and Conference Association. Most of the time we called it Christian Camping International, and we were U.S. and did a lot of work and getting CCI Russia off the ground. And I was on the board of CCI Canada, Christian Camping International Canada. So that was my camping association career. And now 16 years as the President & CEO of Citygate Network, which used to be called the Association of Gospel Rescue Missions. And you just get to a point where you look at it, and think I'm turning the same pile over. We have conferences that are considered the best in the industry because we're creative and flexible. Our number of people coming to our events continues to increase. This past year we had the highest attendance we've ever had which is unusual in a world where most associations are seeing a membership decline. Ours is increasing and attendance is flat. Ours is increasing. And that's a good time to leave. You want to leave on a high note and be able to hand something positive to someone. And so I just looked at it and said, you have two questions. One of them is how much longer can I make this last?  I will be 71 on my last day on the job as president of Citygate Network, and I probably could make it last another five years. The board sure didn't want me to go. There was lamenting and concern because of all the progress we've made and where we are in so many areas. And I didn't want that question to be the one that drove me. How much longer can I make this last? The question you ask, is there somebody else who wants to take the wheel and chart a little bit different course or maintain the course we're on and can be fresh eyes, fresh perspectives, and a good foot for the pedal to keep us going? So, I let the board know two years prior that in the next year, we would want to start dusting off our succession plan. And it was basically 18 months early and I trusted it to the executive committee for the first six months and then one year prior just broke it out to the entire board and we had a plan already in place and I suggested people for the search committee. I gave my board a list of 12 organizations that we've worked with that were search firms and said, you

[00:00:00] John Ashmen: I think that's always important, that you have people that tell you the truth. And, we have different places where that happens. It's not just in the work environment, but also in small groups and fellowship groups and things like that. We have the opportunity to either take their advice or not take their advice. You can surround yourself with great people and they can tell you the truth. If you don't listen to it and take their advice, then you don't emerge any better than you were when you went in. +++++++++++++++++++++ [00:00:30] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is John Ashman, the CEO at Citygate Network. Prior to Citygate, John was the Chief Operating Officer at the Christian Camp and Conference Association, giving him a total of almost 30 years in association leadership. John has led Citygate through a reassessment, a relocation, a restaffing, a refocusing, a rebranding, and then ultimately through the pandemic. John has led Citygate through a reassessment, a relocation, a restaffing, a refocusing, a rebranding, and then ultimately through the pandemic. Through all of this, the Citygate Network membership has grown by almost a third. In addition to his day job, John is a prolific writer, speaker, and board member of several nonprofit organizations. John, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:01:12] John Ashmen: Thank you, Tommy.  Good to be with you. [00:01:15] Tommy Thomas: Before I jump too deep in, is there a short story about how you got into association leadership? [00:01:23] John Ashmen: I was a camp director in New Jersey, a youth camp that was located halfway between Philadelphia and Atlantic City, had about 15,000 people a year come through on all of our programs. It's New Jersey, a very populated state, and the whole Delaware Valley is quite crowded. And we did camping programs up in Maine and over in Europe as well. And being in that camping world gave me visibility. And I went on the board of Christian Camp and Conference Association. At some point, one of the people who was also on the board at that time ended up taking the position of president of that association and gave me an invitation to come and also be on that team. So that's where I served those years as Vice President and Director of Member Services, which is essentially the COO position at Christian Conference Association. That was the launch. [00:02:20] Tommy Thomas:  What do you remember about your childhood that was formative? Were y'all big campers as kids? What stands out there? My father had a mantra that was pretty much built into his life philosophy and that was never let school stand in the way of your kid's education. [00:02:31] John Ashmen: My father had a mantra that was pretty much built into his life philosophy and that was never let school stand in the way of your kid's education. And so, we would take train trips across the U S and in the middle of September and October when some of my friends were in school and somehow, I always was able to do it and I never got in trouble and I guess he didn't, maybe he never told me, but I was always involved with something in adventure and activity with my family. Myy dad and mom for their honeymoon, for example, were married in Ohio and decided they would go out to Illinois and see his brother. They got to Northwestern where he was teaching and he convinced them that Yellowstone National Park was not that far down the road, so they put a case of Campbell's soup in their trunk and took off and found out it was a little bit further than they thought and so they got to Yellowstone and they said we'll never be this close to California, let's try that. That was the parents that I had and the upbringing that I had, so adventure was always on the horizon. [00:03:40] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like for you? [00:03:42] John Ashmen:  What was high school like? Boy, that's a question I don't get in many of the interviews that I do on a regular bas