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Kinship isn’t build overnight. A tree doesn’t go from a sprout to a great oak in a day or two. Relationships need to be started, watered, cultivated, and maintained. We discuss some theological turning points that have shaped our practice of friendship and community, particularly in contrast to the marriage-dominant narratives we grew up with. But we really try to get a little practical in this episode, on the actual skills that it takes to form friendships. Timestamps:00:00 Kinship Lab #800:15 Why Friendship Matters01:41 Tyler on Spiritual Family05:44 TJ on Covenant Friendship09:54 David on One Body16:30 From Theology to Skills17:57 Friendship Tiers21:29 TJ’S Practical Friendship Tools24:15 David’s College lessons on How to Love Friends28:18 Celibacy and Unmet Longings34:45 Covenant Expectations and Testing41:47 Sustaining Relationships & Commitments What do you think? Anything resonate with you? This podcast exists from the generous support from our listeners. If you would like to join the New Kin WhatsApp group to connect with us more and help keep all of our content available for free, then please sign up to support with any size regular gift through Substack—ever dollar is really helpful in helping us continue to build this work. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Our friend Joelle joined David and Tyler this week to talk about her unexpected journey from identifying as bisexual and spending time in queer (and Christian) spaces to experiencing what she describes as the disappearance of her same-sex attraction while exploring Eastern Orthodox Christianity. They talk about social media and dating apps, attraction and lust, marriage, and how Joelle’s relationship to Pride and the queer community continues to change. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #89 - From Queer to… Queer Ally: Joelle’s Story (01:07) Joelle’s initial summary to David (03:54) Growing up evangelical, finding women on dating apps (12:21) Finding queer TikTok, coming out: “I think I’m bisexual” (17:54) Recent encounters with faith and queer sexuality (27:35) Where do you feel attraction in your body? Lust vs. attraction (31:50) The nature of attraction (to my husband, to others) (42:29) Is there a need for Pride? (Joelle’s straight coming out) — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (on Spotify) | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Laurie Krieg joins David, TJ, and Tyler for a practical conversation about how parents can respond when their child comes out as gay or trans. Drawing from her own story and work with parents navigating these moments, Laurie explores the fear and shame that can shape these moments and offers instead a posture of curiosity, listening, emotional steadiness, and continued conversation. We’re grateful for the way Laurie brings a lot of warmth and hard-won wisdom to the conversation. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ ★ About Our Guest Laurie Krieg is the Director of Parenting & Discipleship at The Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. Laurie has a master’s degree in evangelism and leadership from Wheaton Graduate School. She and her husband, Matt, co-host the Hole in My Heart Podcast, co-authored An Impossible Marriage (IVP 2020), and Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World (IVP 2026). Laurie and Matt live in West Michigan with their three kids. — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #88 - “When Your Kid Comes Out to You” 101, with Laurie Krieg (02:45) Laurie’s story: Faith and sexuality in conservative evangelical America (06:45) We’re seeing shifts in how (religious) parents and kids approach same-sex attraction (09:44) POV: When your kid comes out to you... (12:39) Our cultural moment: Sexuality, gender, and school education (15:51) Resources for panicking parents (23:48) What if your child HAS been pursuing same-sex relationships? (30:14) What about coming out re: pronouns and gender identities? (37:28) When your child’s life looks different than you thought... (50:20) How to contact the CenterforFaith.com — ★ Send feedback, questions, comments, support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (on Spotify) | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Aogu Fujihashi ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

This is Part 2 from our conversation in August, so if you haven’t listened to that yet, you may want to start there. We finish our conversation about whether Side B should function more as a discernment toolkit or a confessional movement. We also explore how boundaries relate to creation and freedom (Genesis, Galatians 5), the risks of reductionism or wrongly drawn lines, and areas needing ongoing discernment. Timestamps:00:00 Kinship Lab #7 (Part 2)11:25 Truth Claims and Fruit15:57 Boundaries and Holy World-building28:58 Ambiguity and Discernment Zones45:48 Leadership Lines and Farewell Are boundaries inevitable? Can they enable “holy world-building”? Let us know your thoughts! This podcast exists from the generous support from our listeners. If you would like to join the New Kin WhatsApp group to connect with us more and help keep all of our content available for free, then please sign up to support with any size regular gift through Substack—ever dollar is really helpful in helping us continue to build this work. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Francis is a Vietnamese-American Catholic experiencing same-sex attraction and an extremely thoughtful friend! He joined us to share about his experiences with: family conversations and coming out, discerning the priesthood, pursuing celibacy, finding support through Eden Invitation, and the creative possibilities of celibacy and rootedness. We appreciated this conversation and hope it speaks to you as well! Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #87 - Discerning the Priesthood as a Vietnamese Catholic: Francis’s Story (00:16) The son of two Catholic, Vietnamese immigrants (03:37) Same-sex attraction and words in Vietnamese Catholic communities (16:34) Coming out to parents to be a “safe space” in college (23:28) My mom wanted to support me despite her theological beliefs (33:44) Processing celibacy, stability, and intimacy in relationship (40:55) Discerning seminary and a call to priesthood: Was sexuality a factor? (58:21) The gifts of same-sex attraction — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In follow-up to some thoughtful considerations from our friend Odessa in response to our first Kinship Lab discussion on the Future of the Side B project, we continue the conversation around a potential covenant that could bind this nascent movement together. Our particular focus is on the dynamics and risks of harm (with and without) defined boundaries. This is Part 1, so stay tuned for part 2 in September! (We are taking September off from recording.) One thing we neglected to discuss a little more was a biblical explanation for covenants and how they work in Scripture and for people today. It’s super valuable to understand the way that God builds covenant as he brings us into deeper relationship with him. Anyone have a favorite resource on this? Hop over to Substack to join the conversation! ---- This podcast exists from the generous support from our listeners. If you would like to join the New Kin WhatsApp group to connect with us more and help keep all of our content available for free, then please sign up to support with any size regular gift through Substack—ever dollar is really helpful in helping us continue to build this work. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Our friend Hannah is a Brazilian-Canadian Side B Christian. She stopped by to share some reflections on how faith, family, and culture have shaped her understanding of sexuality. Also included: coming out in Latin American and North American church contexts, the value of therapy and Side B community, and the intentional friendships and practices that have sustained Hannah as she seeks a rooted, faithful life. We’re grateful for her wisdom, thoughtfulness, and curiosity. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps 00:00 #86 - Hannah’s Story of Side B Across 3 Countries and Seasons of Life 01:57 Hannah’s background, across the globe 04:36 Identifying queerness in culture(s) of non-curiosity 17:03 How close friendships are/aren’t different for women 21:44 Coming out in a politicized climate, and therapy 27:45 Hannah’s recs on helpful resources 41:39 What does community look like in your future (maybe)? 47:16 Walking with new friends in side A 53:47 Talking queer topics with women in the church 59:41 Brazilian vs. North American progress on faith/sexuality convos 01:02:09 And again: Therapy! — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Shela Chan joins us to discuss her journey to faith and the research that now shapes her work at the intersection of queer theology, ethics, and social science. Drawing on her own story and doctoral research, Shela examines how theology and empirical insights can inform Christian understandings of human flourishing, belonging, and trauma while challenging the ways churches can unintentionally marginalize LGBTQ people. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ ★ About Our Guest: Shela Chan is a Ph.D. student of Theological and Social Ethics at Fordham University in New York. Her background includes mission work in Afro-Eurasia, and she holds a Master of Divinity degree from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Her academic research focuses on holistic human development and flourishing at the intersection of sexuality and attachment theory. You can find her on Instagram @shechannnnn. — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #85 - Shela Chan: Reflections on Social Science and Christian Ethics (02:17) Shela’s story: From queer liberation to finding yourself in Jesus (18:18) Post-conversion: Queer experience, spiritual growth (41:57) How we interpret the Bible determines where we end up (47:00) Can Adam and Eve be archetypes for us today? (58:15) The archetype of the eunuch and the “ideal male” — ★ Links and References * The Romance of Innocent Sexuality, Geoffrey Rees (2011) * About Tim Keller’s gay brother: https://ap.org.au/2024/10/01/timothy-kellers-brother/ — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Producer: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

As Side B Christians, we’ve done a lot of discernment around the ethics, practice, and vocation of celibacy (celibacy = practicing sexual chastity as an unmarried person), including discernment around lifelong vows of celibacy. In our own journeys, we’ve uncovered myths we’ve believed and encountered myths in our Christian communities. We argue that celibacy and mixed-orientation-marriages are included in Side B, we reject the idea that celibacy necessarily means loneliness in the kingdom of God, we challenge the view that celibacy is merely sexual repression, we explain how vows can add goods (clarity, focus, support), we critique assumptions that marriage is actually superior, we demystify superstitions regarding celibacy and sanctification, and we contend that celibacy is a public vocation worthy of communal celebration. We’d love to hear what you think after you give a listen! Key Scriptures Referenced: Matthew 19:4-5 “eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven” 1 Corinthians 7:9 “it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” 1 Corinthians 7:32–34 “an unmarried person is concerned about the Lord’s affairs” Matthew 12:48-50 Who are my kin but “those who do the will of my Father?” Hebrews 4:15 “tempted in every way common to man yet without sin” Matthew 6:28 “lilies of the field” Time Stamps: 00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab 5 00:30 Why Celibacy Came Up 02:23 Myth 1: Celibacy as a Mandate 05:12 Marriage Paths and Barriers 07:03 Language Celibate vs Single 09:54 Myth 2: Celibacy is Loneliness 12:51 Single Mindedness and Freedom 17:03 Myth 3: Celibacy is Repression 21:07 Desire Struggle and 1 Corinthians 7 24:53 Marriage Is Not the Only Tool 25:59 Marriage Isn’t a Fix 26:24 Sexual Baggage in Marriage 27:10 Myth 4: Celibacy Vows Don’t Add Anything Good 33:24 Vows as Covenant Deepening 36:50 Myth 5: Marriage Is Actually Better Than Celibacy 40:48 Myth 6: Celibacy Vows Are a Level-Up 48:40 Myth 7: Celibacy Shouldn’t Be Celebrated Like Marriage 58:12 Kingdom Public Witness Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Jon-Michael Shelley, a youth pastor in Atlanta, joins David and TJ to share about his journey as a Side B Christian from a Southern Baptist upbringing into the Anglican tradition. He discussed how liturgy, community, and pastoral care shaped his healing and vocation, and how he has come to understand sexuality as an integrated part of faithful discipleship and ministry. Jon-Michael also reflected on calling, celibacy, church leadership, and why he believes Side B Christians have meaningful gifts to offer the church. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ ★ About Our Guest Jon-Michael Shelley is a youth pastor and preacher in the Anglican Church of North America. He’s mentored and discipled young people in church and parachurch ministries for ten years. He has a passion for fostering rich conversations about the deep truths of Christian life among young people and inviting them into relationship with the God who made them. He can be reached via email: [email protected] or on Instagram: @jonmichaelshelley — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #84 - Finding Space in the Anglican Church: Jon-Michael Shelley on Side B, Vocation, and Leadership (01:28) Jon-Michael’s story (10:07) How I ended up Anglican (15:27) Sexuality growing up: Going under the radar (24:09) Youth pastoring and parent perception in liberal secular environments (28:38) Why are you Side B? (40:28) Unique gifts in ministry as a gay man (44:55) How did you change your take on getting married? (50:13) Ordination in the ACNA? (58:50) Hopes for the Anglican church on faith/sexuality topics — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What's the big deal about celibate partnerships?! Pieter Valk wrote an article in 2023 with a significant critique on celibate partnerships, but in 2026 he made significant revisions with an expanded imagination for the possibility and goodness that these kinds of relationships can play for Christians who are looking to live chaste lives within relationships of belonging and mutual care. If you are new to the conversation, here is a brief description: celibate partnerships are long-term committed relationships between two people (typically of the same sex) who regard each other as their primary life partner, yet, unlike marriage, their relationship is not open to sexual activity. The validity and shape of these relationships have been a prominent conversation and debate within the Side B community, so we’re grateful for the opportunity to read Pieter Valk’s thoughts and offer some of our own. We’d love to hear what you think after you give a listen! Here’s a few questions to stir your thinking: Do you think conservative churches can embrace the possibility of celibate partnerships based on Pieter’s accommodation argument? or would they be better suited to develop an expanded imagination for friendship and spiritual siblinghood? How do you think different forms of partnerships compete or complement investments into serving community or other facets of pursuing God? What are the practical needs that people have, regardless of whether they are celibate or not, that need to be seriously considered? References: A thoughtful article by our friend Pieter Valk: https://equipyourcommunity.org/celibate-partnerships/ Time Stamps: 00:00 Kinship Lab #4 - Celibate Partnerships 01:19 Revoice Buzz 02:38 Why This Episode 07:08 Defining Celibate Partnership 10:29 Valk’s Argument Overview 15:43 Tapestry of Kinship 19:32 Strengths of the Article 24:17 Core Critiques 33:18 Romance and Vocation Boundaries 36:49 Biblical Examples and Categories 42:33 (Mis)Using Love Bible Verses and Inspiration for Partnership 46:35 Not Marriage Lite 55:00 Hot Take on Growth 01:00:28 Why Marriage Is Unique 01:05:23 Explaining Celibate Partnerships Publicly 01:10:36 Distinctions, Research, and Pastoral Anxiety 01:16:16 Constructive Feedback Wishlist Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

How do the comparisons we use for queer sexuality shape the way we think, believe, and respond to one another? TJ and podcast manager Elena explore—with new and previous guests—some metaphors Christians use to understand “being gay.” We talked strengths and limitations of each metaphor and how it can impact the lives of LGBTQ+ people. Take a listen, and then join the conversation on Substack! Note: This episode uses the term “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #83 - “Being Gay Is Like...” The Metaphors We Use for Homosexuality (00:38) Our metaphors shape our thinking (07:53) “Being gay is like a disease” (22:42) “Being gay is a curse...or worse...” (33:40) “Being gay is like being an alcoholic” (43:44) “Being gay is... an abomination...” (56:21) “Being gay is like...an appetite [for food]” (01:12:14) “Being gay is like being heterosexual” — ★ Links and References Other episodes we referred to in this podcast: #21 - Tate’s Story: Growing Up Gay in Texas #24 - African Voices: Mwendia Shares on Same-Sex Attraction in Kenya #52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom #54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship #34 - Interview with a Longstanding Side B Ally, Misty Irons Quoted: Catholic Answers Tract on “Homosexuality”: www.catholic.com/tract/homosexuality — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support: Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

David and TJ talked with Akwasi in Ghana about growing up Pentecostal while wrestling with same-sex attraction (SSA). Akwasi shares candidly about the cultural and church pressures surrounding sexuality and marriage in Ghana, and his commitment to pursuing holiness and discipleship even as his attractions remain. He also reflects on the challenges SSA Christians face in his context and his hope to support others through discipleship and community. Note: This episode includes some comments suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. About Our Guest: Akwasi is a Ghanaian Christian leader, creative strategist, and youth mentor passionate about discipling the next generation through faith and leadership. He is involved in building impactful initiatives that blend spiritual formation, mentorship, creativity, and community transformation, with a strong focus on young people in Ghana. He is committed to raising holistic believers and leaders who live boldly, think deeply, and influence society with conviction and excellence. One of those initiatives is FOUND: Foundafric.org — This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #82 - African Voices: Akwasi on Same-Sex Attraction in Ghana (04:10) About Akwasi: Growing up in Pentecostal Africa (06:39) Role playing mothers and fathers, other early history (16:21) How does the church (and wider culture) in Ghana handle men “being gay” or being effeminate? (35:27) SSA in Ghana: “Not many people name it” (42:37) Friendships between men in U.S. compared to Ghana (49:24) Do you pray for God to take away SSA (as a pentecostal)? (51:38) What options does a SSA man in Ghana have? Celibacy, priest, only marriage? (55:44) How do you think about dating (in some African culture)? (01:03:03) Is having a best friend outside your marriage “emotional cheating”? (01:15:59) Does Ghana have Side A? Why aren’t you Side A? (01:22:51) Final Thoughts: Prayers for SSA men in the African Church — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Following up on our earlier conversations, we engage the Side B project. Yes, project. Side B is often thought of as a community of queer/SSA Christians committed to the traditional, Christian sexual ethic. But the Side B project is much bigger than just being honest about not being straight and being steadfast in our theological ethics. We review and riff of Grant Hartley’s article on this very topic. Questions for those who listen (and actually listen, because Side B has enough online trolls who don’t engage in real dialogue and just think we’re some new edge of whatever the gay agenda is): Are there any other aspects of the Side B project that you think we forgot mention? Which aspect of the the Side B project most resonates with your own passions? References: A well-written article by our friend Grant Hartley: Grant's Substack What Exactly Is the Side B Project? Okay, what follows is a fairly niche reflection on the nature of the so-called Side B community (sexual and gender minorities who submit to what is often called a “traditional sexual ethic”), but before some of my readers who are not Side B (particularly my Side A friends) check out, let me say: I do honestly believe th… Read more 10 months ago · 32 likes · 4 comments · Grant Hartley Time Stamps: 00:00 Good morning!01:10 Why Discuss Side B03:13 Hartley’s Essay Summary06:27 Tyler Reacts: Missing "Desire"16:51 David Frank’s Goal: Prophetic Witness23:07 Boundaries, Labels, Therapy25:49 Trans/Gender Minority Questions37:23 Worth Discussing, eh?39:47 Side B Diversity44:16 Unity Beyond Movements49:11 Prophetic Schools and Boundaries54:24 Love over Ideology, Goods before Critiques01:03:27 We can have unity on paths of celibacy, right?01:08:49 Wrap Up and Community Plug01:13:10 After-show thoughts on new Google Icons Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

We are glad to have Mwendia Steve Kiengu back on the podcast to hear about his ministry in Kenya and across Africa. Found is a ministry to build a Christ-centered community walking alongside believers experiencing same-sex orientation and gender dysphoria, guiding them toward truth, love, and belonging. This is the only Side B ministry in the entire continent of Africa (Side B integrates experiences of same-sex attraction within a historic biblical sexual ethic), with an estimated 7-25 million Christians on the continent experiencing same-sex attraction. It’s a vital ministry for the African church. __________ Links and social media platforms: Found Ministry: https://foundafric.org/ Facebook: FoundAfrica Instagram: @foundafrika TikTok: @foundafrika1 Giving Link: https://secure.qgiv.com/for/supportfound Steve’s Story Episode on New Kinship: #24 Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe