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Alison Taylor is a Clinical Associate Professor at the NYU Stern School of Business and former Executive Director of Ethical Systems. She is the author of Higher Ground: How Business Can Do the Right Thing in a Turbulent World, which the Financial Times named one of the best business books of 2024. Over the past few years, Alison has cultivated a remarkably engaged and refreshingly human community of interesting people sharing interesting thoughts on LinkedIn. Fortunately for me, since I have not been on LinkedIn in a long time, Alison is now bringing this community to an email inbox near you with the launch of her Substack, Higher Ground: https://findhigherground.substack.com/ I always learn a lot from Alison. She is one of those people whose perspective, no matter the topic or issue, is thoughtful, insightful, and routinely prescient. (This is why I have asked her, on numerous occasions, basically to predict the future.) In this conversation, we cover a lot of ground, including: * the state of corporate responsibility and sustainability; * the impact (so far) of AI on the creative and consulting industries; * the possibility that Gen Z will resist the phoniness and fakery that defines the digital age; * the challenge of strengthening one’s attention muscles in said digital age; * the trials and tribulations of building and sustaining a sense of community on platforms like LinkedIn and Substack; * the uncomfortable overlap between elite corporate world-savers and the Democratic Party; * the head-scratching shortage of companies willing to, as Alison puts it, “center human dignity and respect and treat people properly”; and, * the hope-restoring power of connecting with people in person. We even discuss the ethical leadership of—I can’t believe I’m writing this—JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon. Speaking with Alison lifted my spirits at a moment when I needed it. I’m grateful for her willingness to surmount her own time constraints to record this conversation. It was delightful. ***** Some interesting books and articles referenced: Our prior Sunday Conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-alison-taylor My interview with Musa al-Gharbi, author of the phenomenal 2024 book, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, for The Ink: https://the.ink/p/how-wokeness-enables-inequality Alex McCann’s viral essay, “The death of the corporate job”: https://thestillwandering.substack.com/p/the-death-of-the-corporate-job The essay I published in January, which introduces some of the themes that Alison and I explore at the end of this conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/on-choosing-patriotism-even-today This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

Alison Mariella Désir is the host and producer of the award-winning PBS show “Out & Back” and the author of “Running While Black: Finding Freedom in a Sport That Wasn’t Meant for Us.” She is also the first guest of this newsletter and podcast to make a return appearance. You can read and listen to our first conversation here. We cover a lot of ground in today’s conversation. A few highlights (edited and condensed for clarity and accuracy): On the state of the world, and why things may have to get worse before they get better: To have this relative safety and goodness in my life, when the world is literally falling apart, is hard to make sense of. It’s not like things are completely fine, but compared to people being deported, people being bombed, I don’t have much to complain about. So long as people are living in relative comfort, there really is no reason to take big actions. That also puts the responsibility back on me and back on us. What are the ways we can be doing more? It’s going to get bad. I don’t know what that’s going to look or feel like. But [I’m] trying to prepare myself for knowing that we’re really going to start to feel it. On taking up space—and being aware of taking up space: I’m very conscious of the space that I take up, what it’s like when I’m in different spaces. [The] same is true for other people—in their physicality, but also in their vibes. There honestly isn’t a place that I go that I don’t think about that. When I’m in white spaces in particular I’m consciously making decisions: How much of myself can I show in the space? What would be safe? Am I going to do things that are going to meet their expectations? Because often that’s safer. Or am I going to do what’s more authentic to me that might be disruptive? And what are the consequences of being disruptive? Now as a parent, I see how much that comes up for me with my son. I don’t want to give him my baggage. But assuming he’s cis, he’s going to be a Black man in this world one day, so he has to be conscious of the space. Maybe we just all need to be more honest about the space we take up, how we feel in space, how other people feel in space. On the running and fitness industry’s response to the second Trump era so far: This would be the time for corporations to be socially responsible and say, “We’re going to risk some of our profit in order to course correct what’s going on with the government. We are not going to succumb to executive orders that don’t apply [to us] around DEI—because we don’t have to.” That’s been really disappointing to see. I read the other day that there’s a sneaker company that has to pay $150 million more in tariffs this year that they didn’t account for. I don’t care! This is a multi-billion-dollar sneaker company. You have the money. You just need to tell shareholders, “You’re going to make a little less money.” But the idea is, shareholders always have to make more money; therefore, consumers will bear the brunt. That is my problem. My problem is with capitalism. This idea that we should be feeling sorry and that there should be special concessions for sneaker companies because they’re looking out for the rest of us so that we can buy a reasonably priced sneaker—that is untrue. Their concern is profit [for] shareholders. And they’re doing what they can to protect themselves, and nobody else. On seeing the possibility of a world beyond capitalism: Why have a company and not use it for good? That just doesn’t make sense to me. But profit is not the thing that drives me most. This probably sounds super naive, but I don’t understand having access to all of that power and really being able to shift a country, a world for the better—and not use it! I can’t imagine that. I feel really exhausted sometimes. I was thinking the other day, man, it would be so nice if I could just rest during those times and know that somebody’s going to take care of me. And I promise I will take care of you back when you you need your rest. That’s actually possible! It’s just that we haven’t built a society that exists that way. We’re measured by productivity. There’s always supposed to be some kind of output. There are people who believe that is the only way to exist. And I want to challenge people to use your imagination. Things could be different because we are the people that are upholding how things are right now. What would it take for those things to be different? Well, we would have to really start trusting the people around us. That’s also what capitalism does: It sows distrust. If we unmake all of these things, something else is possible. I believe we will get there. But I think we have to face crisis first. On the inaugural We Out Here Trail Festival, a “party with a trail race” that will take place on Saturday, June 7, in Washington’s St. Edwards State Park: For many years, I have had conversations with people in the trail running industry. I’ve called people out. I’ve called people in. I’ve been in conversations with race directors about, How do we make races feel more welcoming to people? How do we invite more people into trail running? Those conversations have not gone anywhere. So I decided, you know what? If nobody’s going to do anything about it, I’m going to be part of doing something about it. We Out Here Trail Fest is a race that’s built for beginners, for people who have been intimidated, for people who haven’t seen themselves in the trail running community. We have a DJ. We have race distances that you won’t find anywhere else. Sixty percent of people who are running the race have never run a trail race before. I hope with everything that I do, everything positive that I do, that it can show the industry that it’s possible. We’ve still got a few spots. So if you are listening to this before June 7th, we hope that you will sign up and join us at the We Out Here Trail Festival. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Jaz Brisack, the author of ‘Get on the Job and Organize: Standing Up for a Better Workplace and a Better World.’ Read a condensed and edited version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-jaz-brisack. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

Alice L Driver is an investigative journalist and the author of “Life and Death of the American Worker: The Immigrants Taking on America’s Largest Meatpacking Company.” This is the complete audio of an interview I recorded with Alice on Thursday, February 20. The.Ink previously published a written and edited version of our conversation. Head here to read it: “How the sausage gets made.” You can also sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. And see more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Elaine Weiss, the author of Spell Freedom: The Underground Schools That Built the Civil Rights Movement. Read a condensed and edited version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-elaine-weiss. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Catherine Bracy, the founder and CEO of TechEquity and the author of World Eaters: How Venture Capital Is Cannibalizing the Economy. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-catherine-bracy. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

Renée DiResta is an associate research professor at Georgetown’s McCourt School of Public Policy and the author of “Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies Into Reality.” This is the complete audio of an interview I recorded with Renée on Tuesday, December 17. The Ink previously published a condensed and edited version of our conversation. Head here to read it: “How to fight an epidemic of bad faith.” (For those of you who subscribed to “Reframe Your Inbox” after seeing one of my contributions to The Ink: Thank you! I promise that I publish new interviews here, too—not just links to Q&As that previously ran elsewhere. Stay tuned.) You can also sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. And see more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

Hahrie Han is a political scientist at Johns Hopkins University who studies social movements and collective action. Her latest book is Undivided: The Quest for Racial Solidarity in an American Church. This is the complete audio of my conversation with Hahrie. Earlier this month, The.Ink published a condensed and edited version of our conversation. Head here to read it: “Radical grace and the fight for racial justice.” You can also sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. And see more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

Musa al-Gharbi is an assistant professor in the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University. He is also a columnist for The Guardian and the author of the phenomenal—and phenomenally timed—new book We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite. As Musa described it when we spoke last month, the book explores how “social justice discourse is increasingly used by symbolic capitalists, by the winners and the prevailing order of people who have been succeeding and flourishing, to justify inequalities.” For many of us on the left, We Have Never Been Woke makes for an uncomfortable read. But I think this discomfort reflects what makes the book so compelling and so urgent—particularly as we try to figure out where, exactly, we might go from here. This is the complete audio of my conversation with Musa. Head over to The Ink to read a condensed and edited version: “Is ‘wokeness’ enabling inequality?” You can also sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. And see more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Atossa Araxia Abrahamian, an independent journalist and the author of the new book The Hidden Globe: How Wealth Hacks the World. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-atossa-abrahamian. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Brody Mullins. Brody is a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter who spent nearly two decades as a reporter for The Wall Street Journal covering lobbying, money, and politics. He is the co-author of the new book, The Wolves of K Street: The Secret History of How Big Money Took Over Big Government. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-brody-mullins. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Casey Michel, a journalist, the director of the Combating Kleptocracy Program with the Human Rights Foundation, and the author of the new book Foreign Agents: How American Lobbyists and Lawmakers Threaten Democracy Around the World. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-casey-michel. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Brigid Schulte, an award-winning journalist formerly for the Washington Post, the director of the Better Life Lab at New America, and the author of the new book Over Work: Transforming the Daily Grind in the Quest for a Better Life. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-brigid-schulte. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Douglas Rushkoff, an author and documentarian who studies human autonomy in a digital age. Douglas is the host of the Team Human podcast and the author of twenty books, including Survival of the Richest: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-douglas-rushkoff. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com

This is the complete audio of my Sunday Conversation with Alison Mariella Désir, the founder of Harlem Run, a New York City-based running movement, and Run 4 All Women. Alison is also the author of Running While Black: Finding Freedom in a Sport That Wasn’t Built for Us. Read a condensed and footnoted version of our conversation: https://adaml.substack.com/p/sunday-conversation-alison-mariella-desir. Sign up to get “Reframe Your Inbox” in your inbox: https://www.adaml.blog/newsletter. See more of my work: https://www.adaml.blog. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit adaml.substack.com