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This episode originally aired in October of 2024. Gather around the campfire for a ghost story about the most destructive monster in history: civilization itself.  In this episode, we delve into the countercultural writings of Fredy Perlman, whose strange 1983 book "Against His-Story, Against-Leviathan"—riddled with grammatical errors and misspellings—blends myth and history to explore the nature of power, subjugation, and the struggle between the rulers and the ruled. Our journey takes us back to ancient Sumer, where egalitarian hunter-gatherer communities transformed into peasants and slaves bound by a mysterious force even the rulers couldn't control.  We trace the rise of the first Lugals, the original kings of Mesopotamia, from Urukagina of Lagash, whose reforms sowed the seeds of his downfall, to Sargon of Akkad, who conquered all of Sumer only to become part of the Leviathan's vast machinery. Together, we'll explore how power and control first took root in the world's earliest cities—and how those ancient systems still shape our world today. This is a spooky episode. The hair on the back of your neck might stand up. But we can stay seated and relax. It is just a story after all. A fairytale, as Fredy would call it.   CITATIONS Against His-Story, Against Leviathan [book] by Fredy Perlman (1983) Sargon of Akkad [article] by Joshua J. Mark (2009) Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles [book] by Albert Kirk Grayson (1975) Akkadian Empire victory stele circa 2300 BC from Louvre Museum   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts and leave us a review. Join us on Substack and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast Theme Music is "Celestial Soda Pop" (Amazon, iTunes, Spotify) by Ray Lynch, from the album "Deep Breakfast." Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI. All rights reserved.   .  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop  https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI     2.  iTunes:  https://music.apple.com/us/album/celestial-soda-pop/3242445?i=3242425 3.  Spotify:   https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f   Additional Credits Vanhan ajan sota, taistelu, miekkailu / Ancient, old time battle, combat, horses snorting and galloping, men shouting and barking, fencing, swords clanging, mix by YleArkisto -- https://freesound.org/s/258207/ -- License: Attribution 4.0

How did humans go from living in small-scale communities where everyone knew each other to building a massive civilization filled with billions of strangers? And what the heck holds those societies together? In this episode, philosopher C. Thi Nguyen, author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game, joins the odyssey to explore  the strange relationship between games, bureaucracy, and large-scale society. We explore why bureaucracies are so inescapably powerful, what they can—and can't—see, and whether large-scale institutions are doomed to lose sight of nuance and local context. Does the flexibility and experimentation of games offer clues for designing better ways of organizing society? This is a conversation about civilization, bureaucracy, social organization, community, games, human nature, and the possibility of changing the rules of the game we're all playing.   CITATIONS The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game by C. Thi Nguyen C. Thi Nguyen's blog Objectionable   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts and leave us a review. Join us on Substack and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast Theme Music is "Celestial Soda Pop" (Amazon, iTunes, Spotify) by Ray Lynch, from the album "Deep Breakfast." Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI. All rights reserved.

You might think that you are not a forager. But what if no matter our lifestyle or job title, we are forever hunter gatherers in this world: of food, of love, of meaning. In this immersive episode, join Alex on a walk through an ancient forest as you explore what it means to live life as a forager. It's a journey through the Garden of Eden grocery store, a wrestling with the gods, and a coming home to feast and famine.   CITATIONS Changes in the Landscape by William Cronon   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts and leave us a review. Join us on Substack and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast Theme Music is "Celestial Soda Pop" (Amazon, iTunes, Spotify) by Ray Lynch, from the album "Deep Breakfast." Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI. All rights reserved.

What if the crises of our time are not just ecological or political, but also mythological? Poet and author Sophie Strand joins Human Nature Odyssey for a wide-ranging conversation about stories, illness, ecology, and transformation. Drawing from mythology, religion, folklore, and her own experience living with chronic illness, Sophie explores how the stories we inherit shape our relationship to the living world—and what happens when those stories no longer serve us. Together, we discuss death and rebirth, animism, the power of storytelling, and the art of composting old narratives so that something new can grow. From Jesus of Nazareth to One Thousand and One Arabian Nights to the ancient Greek epic of Odysseus, we explore stories not as relics of the past, but as living companions for navigating an uncertain future. This conversation asks what it would mean to truly live in an animate world—to encounter plants, animals, rivers, and landscapes not as resources or scenery, but as relatives. At a time when many of our cultural myths are unraveling, Sophie offers a vision of belonging rooted in reciprocity, relationship, and participation in the wider community of life.   CITATIONS Sophie Strand's Substack: Make Me Good Soil Sophie Strand's Instagram: @cosmogyny   Thank you to Blindspot for sharing their original music. Check out Blindspot on Bandcamp and Spotify. If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts and leave us a review. Join us on Substack and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast Theme Music is "Celestial Soda Pop" (Amazon, iTunes, Spotify) by Ray Lynch, from the album "Deep Breakfast." Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI. All rights reserved.

You, me, and everyone we know were born on the Titanic.  Some are warning of icebergs. Some are shoveling coal into the furnaces. Some are jamming out while the band plays louder than ever. In this special episode beginning Year Four of Human Nature Odyssey, Alex gathers friends together in a living room for a live-recorded podcast potluck conversation exploring civilization, collapse, climate change, community, and the strange experience of trying to live a meaningful life while the world feels increasingly unstable. Drawing from Lord of the Rings, the Titanic, Daniel Quinn's Ishmael, ecological philosophy, and the first three years of Human Nature Odyssey, this episode becomes both a reflection on the journey so far and an exploration on what it means to "come home" to the living world. Come join us in the living room. There's still space on the couch.   CITATIONS Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien Ishmael by Daniel Quinn   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Substack for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

Today Hajar Tazi joins us on our odyssey. Hajar is a poet, writer, facilitator, and self-described "ecosystem weaver." Our conversation is part of a new five-episode miniseries from Resilience that I'm hosting in collaboration with the Omega Resilience Awards.   It's called In the Rising Tide and it brings together conversations with five people from around the world, exploring the interconnected unfolding crises of our time—and how each of them is responding within their own communities. Across the series, I speak with a chef and farmer from the Philippines, an Indigenous water defender in Chile, a young organizer in Uganda resisting mega oil projects, and a narrative practitioner in India.   I wanted to include this conversation with Hajar here on Human Nature Odyssey because it touches many of the themes we've been exploring here on the podcast. Hajar has been deeply influenced by the scholar and activist Joanna Macy, and facilitates something called the "Great Weaving Game," which draws on Macy's framework of the Great Unraveling and the Great Turning to help people imagine new possibilities for the future.   If you want to learn more about Joanna Macy's work, you can check out the recent Human Nature Odyssey episode with Jess Serrante. Today, Hajar and I explore many things: neurodivergence, eco-villages, the IMF and World Bank, surfing, political polarization, and the art of coming home. In The Rising Tide was made with support from a grant from Omega Resilience Awards, a project of the nonprofit Commonweal. Find out more at ORAwards.org You can learn more from Hajar at her substack Remembering the Future.  If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

Okay, it's been fifty years since the sudden collapse of civilization - why isn't everything back up and running already? In the 1949 sci-fi novel Earth Abides, Isherwood Williams tries and tries to teach the next generation about law, economics, and geometry but these dang kids would rather explore the streams that flow over abandoned boulevards and overgrown shopping malls. In Part 2 of this two-part series, Alex and astrophysicist Tom Murphy explore the unexpected evolution of life after the fall—when civilization fades into myth, and a new way of seeing the world begins to take root. It's been decades since airplanes filled the skies, since stadiums roared with crowds, since global supply chains stitched continents together. The children born after the Great Disaster have never known that world. To them, skyscrapers wrapped in vines are normal. Mountain lions at the edge of the cul-de-sac are normal. The quiet is normal. And as they grow up, they begin to tell different stories. Stories not of dominance, progress, or control—but of relationship, mystery, and a living world they are part of, not apart from. You don't need to have read the book to enter this world—this episode is an experience in itself. This episode is for listeners interested in societal collapse, critiques of progress, and the big questions about the future of humanity on planet earth.   CITATIONS Earth Abides [book]] by George R. Stewart (2026) Tom Murphy's Do The Math blog   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

You ever go on a little trip, to just get away from it all — only to come home and find all of civilization collapsed while you were gone and you might be the last person left on earth?  Well then you could totally relate to George R. Stewart's 1949 science-fiction novel, Earth Abides.  Earth Abides is not your typical post-apocalyptic tale. It challenges some of our core notions on progress, human happiness, and civilization itself. It's a study of how our built infrastructure crumbles in our absence and becomes home to nonhuman life. It's about how human communities organize without the enforcement of the state, and how culture changes over time—taking us from the immediate aftermath of civilization's sudden collapse to a distant future when the last generation, known only as the Americans, leaves behind a people who barely remember what the United States once was. In this two-part series, Alex is joined by astrophysicist, writer, and friend of the show Tom Murphy to retell and explore this science fiction classic, unpacking its radical ideas about collapse, resilience, and what it means to live a meaningful life. This episode is for listeners interested in societal collapse, critiques of progress, and the big questions about the future of humanity on planet earth.   CITATIONS Earth Abides [book]] by George R. Stewart (2026)   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

How do we live through wild times? Legendary scholar, activist, and systems thinker Joanna Macy named the moment we are living through the Great Unraveling—a time when our ecological, political, economic, and social systems destabilize to the point of no return. And yet, she also insisted that we stand on the threshold of a Great Turning: a profound transition toward a more just and sustainable world. Before Joanna's death in 2025, climate activist Jess Serrante recorded a series of intimate and insightful conversations with her. In this episode, Alex sits down with Jess, weaving in clips from those recordings to explore the questions Joanna devoted her life to asking: How do we live with meaning as civilization unravels? How do we turn toward the grief of this moment—and transform it into action? And how do intergenerational relationships help us become elders for the future - when wisdom is needed most?   CITATIONS We Are The Great Turning [podcast]    If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

At first glance, believing the earth is flat and dreams of colonizing Mars couldn't seem further apart. But both are built on the same story — that reality can be escaped if we just think big enough. This episode looks at two beliefs that seem opposite — flat earth and space colonization — and asks what they reveal about our urge to escape reality rather than reckon with it. One is the belief that humans could, and should, live in space: that we're destined to leave our planet behind and colonize the stars. The other is the belief that we're not on a planet at all—that the Earth is actually… flat. While one is held by fringe figures and the other by some of the most powerful men on the planet, both rest on the premise that humans are exceptional, unbound by limits, or somehow separate from the earth. To explore these modern myths, we're joined by two guests: astrophysicist Tom Murphy and documentary filmmaker Daniel J. Clark, whose film Behind the Curve follows prominent figures in the fringe—but growing—flat Earth movement. Together, we'll examine the stories we tell ourselves about the world we inhabit, how we determine what's real or possible, and what kind of world these stories create.   CITATIONS Do The Math [blog]  Behind the Curve [film] (2018) Return to Space [film] by (2022)   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

Picture the future 100 years from now. What do you imagine? Flying cars? Space colonies? AI talking toasters? But if we can't sustain an endlessly growing economy - even with a transition to green energy - what does a realistic and positive future look like? Alex joins the hosts of Crazy Town to imagine life in the 22nd century: walking from our family farms into communal villages, living off the land in a low-energy lifestyle, taming our pet donkeys, and resisting our local warlords. It's not the future the movies told us to expect. But it might be a future we enjoy living in.   CITATIONS Crazy Town podcast   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast     Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

What does a livable future look like 100 years from now? If we unlocked unlimited green energy, what would we actually do with it? And are our dreams of a renewable-energy utopia sometimes just as delusional as the fossil-fueled drill baby drill mentality? In this two-part series, Alex is joined by the hosts of Crazy Town—Jason Bradford, Rob Dietz, and Asher Miller—a research biologist, ecological economist, and Executive Director of the Post Carbon Institute, who bring a depth of knowledge as well as dad jokes. Together, they explore the implications of exponential energy growth on a finite planet, the hard truths behind a renewable-energy future, and which expectations we need to rethink as we chart a path forward. Along the way, we encounter an Olympic athlete attempting to toast bread using a bicycle. We also step inside a billionaire's latest invention: a time-travel device promising to fling us ahead one hundred years. Will the future be a gleaming techno-utopia powered by infinite green energy? A scorched wasteland of collapse? Or something else entirely—a lower-energy world that future generations might actually enjoy living in? Stay tuned for Part 2 where we take the full leap into the time machine and imagine what life a century from now could really look like in a post high-energy future.   CITATIONS The Toaster Challenge, Olympic Cyclist Vs. Toaster: Can He Power It?, 2015 Tom Murphy, Galactic-Scale Energy, Do the Math, 2011. Tom Murphy, Limits to Economic Growth, Nature Physics, August, 2022. Solar Freakin' Roadways, Indiegogo, 2014 Crazy Town podcast   ADDITIONAL MUSIC Modified version of "Also sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30" by Strauss, from classicals.de — licensed under CC BY 4.0   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

A horrific zombie apocalypse has ravaged the world—but hardly anyone seems to notice. One lone podcast sets out to interview those navigating this strange new reality: from people attending mindful zombie retreats and binging zombie media, to those stockpiling shotguns and fortifying bunkers, to others disappearing into the woods to build something entirely new.   This is an original script written by Alex Leff.   VOICE ACTING CREDITS Jason Bradford Rob Dietz Jake Gibson Maia Kinney-Petrucha Jessie Lian  Jake Marquez Asher Miller Maren Morgan Ray Tannheimer Maggie Weiler   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

What insights can our ancient past shine on our political future? Were hunter-gatherers the ultimate traditionalists—or proto-communists?  Is it possible hunter-gatherers lived with greater equality and more political freedom than most societies today? And why do both communism and capitalism, despite being sworn enemies, rest on the same assumption of endless growth? Psychologist Jonathan Haidt argues that humans are wired with both liberal and conservative tendencies—and that societies function best when those forces stay in balance. Where can we find the liberal and conservative elements in our hunter-gatherer past? And how might it reframe our political future? In The King Is Dead, Now What? we explored modern political history. Now we zoom out, connecting  the dots to a much broader civilizational story. Plus, we're debuting a new segment: The State of Civilization, featuring our up-and-coming optimistic reporter Jeff Opolis, reporting on the fantastic news coming from civilization right now. Everything is great! Or… is it?   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   CITATIONS Haidt, Jonathan. "The Moral Roots of Liberals and Conservatives." TED, 2008. Fiddler on the Roof. Directed by Norman Jewison, United Artists, 1971. "Net Energy and Sustainability, or… The Story of the Overstuffed Strongman." Crazy Town podcast, Post Carbon Institute, 2021. Ryan, Christopher. Civilized to Death: The Price of Progress. Avid Reader Press, 2019. "Ken Burns." The Joe Rogan Experience, episode 1745, Spotify, 2022. Cronon, William. Changes in the Land: Indians, Colonists, and the Ecology of New England. Hill and Wang, 1983. Marx, Karl. Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875. Hyde, Lewis. The Gift: Imagination and the Erotic Life of Property. Vintage, 1983. Kimmerer, Robin Wall. Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants. Milkweed Editions, 2013. Norberg-Hodge, Helena. Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh. Sierra Club Books, 1991. Ho, Fred. A World Where Many Worlds Fit. Big Red Media, 2008. World Health Organization. (2024, July 24). Hunger numbers stubbornly high for three consecutive years as global crises deepen. Colquhoun, P. A Treatise on the Police of the Metropolis.  Elhacham, Emily, et al. "Global Human-Made Mass Exceeds All Living Biomass." Nature, vol. 588, no. 7838, 2020, pp. 442–444.   Additional music for this episode by Adam Tell, from the albums Peripheries, This Time With Feeling, and Object Impermanence. Courtesy of Adam Tell. All rights reserved.    Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved.

Christopher Ryan joins the odyssey to discuss human nature - shouldn't be surprising - it's in the name! What's universal, what's cultural, and what's personal? Can we really change the culture we live in? And are some societies better suited to human well-being than others? Christopher Ryan is the New York Times bestselling author of Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships as well as the book Civilized to Death: The Price of Progress. He also hosts the long-running podcast, Tangentially Speaking," which has been downloaded over 30 million times.   You can learn more about Christopher here.   If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes. For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast   Music: Celestial Soda Pop By: Ray Lynch From the album: Deep Breakfast Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI  All rights reserved. 1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop  https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI     2.  iTunes:  https://music.apple.com/us/album/celestial-soda-pop/3242445?i=3242425 3.  Spotify:   https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f