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Some churches find their bylaws only after a pastor announces a departure. Then they discover the documents haven’t been reviewed in decades. Sheila Bennett would rather help a board ask those questions earlier. With more than twenty years in church finance and operations, she sees governance as part of caring for the people doing ministry. Sheila joins us to discuss why churches need structures that serve the organization beyond its current leader.  We talk about choosing board members for more than proximity, understanding a congregation’s relationships, and making sure someone owns the work happening behind the scenes. There’s also an honest exchange about why pastors avoid this material. We would prefer Leviticus to business paperwork. Sheila explains why she finds purpose in the details we’d gladly hand to someone else. Key Takeaways Review governing documents before a crisis or leadership change makes the questions urgent.Build structures that can serve the church beyond a beloved pastor or founding team.Choose board members for character and useful perspectives, rather than familiarity alone.Church operations require an understanding of relationships as well as practical skills.Give capable people responsibility for the work behind the scenes so pastors aren’t carrying every concern.Chapter Markers 00:00 – The work that helps a church outlast its leader 05:43 – How Sheila found her calling in church operations 10:52 – Why church business takes more than business skills 19:42 – Bylaws, board selection, and practical oversight 28:20 – Staying hopeful and helping churches get organized Resources Explore Sheila’s coauthored book, Church, Inc.: Systematic Surgery for Modern Ministry. Check out Sheila’s ministry at ministrymanager.org Preparing for a leadership change? Start a confidential conversation at ministrytransitions.com.

Who gets to lead when the founder is still in the room? For David and Jonathan Shibley, that question came with another relationship to protect: father and son. On Life After Ministry, I talk with them about the succession at Global Advance and the choices that helped it work. Jonathan served for ten years before becoming president, giving the board time to observe him and ministry partners time to know him. David continued serving while publicly supporting Jonathan's leadership. We also discuss the pressure of comparison, the weight of becoming responsible for other people's livelihoods, and what their wives experienced along the way. For a board preparing its own leadership handoff, this conversation gives an honest look at the preparation and personal care that a healthy succession requires. Key Takeaways Give the board time to assess readiness. Jonathan's last name came with expectations. Years of service gave the board an opportunity to observe his work before appointing him president.Prepare people for the relationship as well as the announcement. Staff and ministry partners had opportunities to see David and Jonathan work together before the presidency changed hands.Give the successor room to lead differently. David affirmed Jonathan publicly and kept their disagreements between them, helping people understand whose leadership to follow.Ask what the family will carry. Travel demands and conversations at home affected their wives differently. Each family needed room to name what worked for them.Plan for meaningful life after the role. The board and Jonathan addressed David and Naomi's financial future, and David continued serving through writing and other ministry work.Chapter Markers 00:00 A father-son succession worth learning from 01:21 How the possibility of succession began 06:22 Serving without a promised title 08:38 The three envelopes story 11:13 Preparing stakeholders and releasing authority 16:31 Giving a successor opportunities to learn 19:08 Following a father everyone knows 21:06 The weight of becoming president 27:07 Holding a ministry and an identity with humility 31:17 What their wives and families carried 36:10 When the founder remains involved 38:56 Meaningful ministry after the presidency 44:07 The work of Global Advance Global Advance: https://globaladvance.org/ Global Advance podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/channel/global-advance-podcasts/id6445826567 Ministry Transitions: https://ministrytransitions.com/ Music licensed through Soundstripe. Code: VYIFKMHAUOEXDSYY, 7CAPUD6JEYLZ3YBI

The church has a plan for who’s preaching next Sunday. Who’s checking on the pastor’s family on Monday? For episode 100, our team at Ministry Transitions - Bill Tom, Matt Davis, Noe Rivera, and Ron Henry - talk about what has surprised us, what still breaks our hearts, and why we keep hearing, “I wish we’d found you sooner.” Today, we get to talk with people who are asking “What now?” and “What’s next?” We also help the boards and leaders making hard decisions that will affect a family long after the announcement is over. We talk about caring for spouses and kids, the humility to ask for help, and the moments when somebody begins to see a future again.  After 100 episodes, we believe more strongly than ever that the church should know how to say goodbye without destroying people. Key Takeaways A leader’s transition affects their spouse, children, and the wider community. Care for the family needs to be part of the plan.Boards need clear responsibilities and preparation before a difficult decision puts those gaps on display.Humility and coachability give leaders room to receive help and consider what comes next.Losing a ministry role can shake your identity. Relationships, meaningful work, and simple moments of joy can help you see beyond that loss.Old wounds deserve care, too. You can ask for help even when the transition happened years ago.Chapter Markers 00:00 – The hole jumper and why we started 10:34 – What surprised us about this work 22:34 – Humility, hope, and life beyond a role 30:08 – What boards and families need during transition 43:34 – Hard goodbyes, old wounds, and a way forward Resources Facing a transition or helping someone through one? Visit ministrytransitions.com to start a confidential conversation. To help provide care for a ministry leader who can’t afford it or lacks support, visit the website to make a donation. Music licensed through Soundstripe. Code: 2X6MMWEBTOGAQHGO, 3QGZO2HS60LMBN9B

Why is it so hard to let go of a ministry you love before something forces the decision?  Robin Fuller knows firsthand. After more than 23 years in pregnancy center ministry, she burned out and heard that only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well. She decided to be part of that 10 percent. Robin lifted the mantle off her shoulders in front of her board and walked through a four-year succession plan that started with a simple "Things I Do" document. Matt and Robin talk about why founders struggle most, how a poverty mindset keeps leaders in the seat too long, and why outgoing leaders need to step away for at least six months. Robin also shares her new book, Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love. Key Takeaways1. Succession starts long before you leave. Robin spent four years working with her board so the ministry could continue without a blip. 2. Write down what you actually do. A simple "Things I Do" list shows what to release, what to delegate, and what the next leader will need. 3. Know what will be missing when you are gone. Robin knew finances were not her gift, so she looked for a successor who was strong where she was not. 4. Pay and plan for your people. Fair pay and retirement planning keep leaders from staying too long just because they cannot afford to leave. 5. Give your successor room. Robin now encourages every outgoing leader to stay away for at least six months and to hand pride back to the Lord. Chapter Markers00:00 - Why Letting Go Is So Hard Robin's story, burnout, and why only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well. 06:58 - The "Things I Do" Document The simple list that showed Robin what to release and how to restructure her role. 12:10 - Why Leaders Stay Too Long Founders, the poverty mindset, and building a healthy compensation philosophy. 20:19 - Stepping Away Well The six-month rule, keeping staff through the handoff, and wrestling with pride. 27:30 - Finish Well: The Book Twelve practical steps for ministry leaders and boards, plus Robin's masterminds. ResourcesIf you are navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation. Get Robin Fuller's book Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love and learn about her coaching and succession planning mastermind groups at robinfuller.coach. The book is also available on Amazon. Connect with Robin on Facebook and LinkedIn. Music licensed through Soundstripe. Code: XR91I6DXHFKRNMGI, UJMZ6VRYI26GYGRX

Anthony Barton was a successful business owner when a trust attorney asked what his family mission statement was - not his business one. That question pushed him beyond leaving a gift toward building a legacy, and within 90 days he and his family were serving in Swaziland. Cancer later clarified the shift. Anthony sold his company, entered seminary, and now coaches Christian entrepreneurs through Convene. In this conversation he shares frameworks for pausing and pivoting, caring for people as image-bearers, and looking for God's providence in disruption. 6. KEY TAKEAWAYS 1. A gift and a legacy aren't the same thing. Anthony's trajectory changed when he began thinking about what his family could build together for God rather than simply what he could someday leave behind. 2. God can use disruption to clarify calling. Anthony describes cancer as brutal, but also as a season that brought unusual clarity about where his life needed to go next. 3. You cannot pivot well if you never pause. Healthy leaders and organizations stop long enough to evaluate what is happening before they change direction. 4. People are not resources. Christian leadership should see people as individuals made in the image of God, not simply inputs for organizational productivity. 5. Providence may be the most important P. In business, ministry, transition, and suffering, Anthony keeps returning to one question: Where is God's providence in all that we do? 7. CHAPTER MARKERS 00:00 - Welcome Anthony Barton Matt introduces Anthony and begins with the major turning point in 2013. 00:47 - Gift or Legacy? A trust attorney asks Anthony a question that changes how he thinks about what he will leave his family. 07:59 - The Next Disruption: Cancer A cancer diagnosis reshapes Anthony's understanding of life, calling, and what he wants to build. 13:15 - Protect, Pause, and Pivot Anthony shares leadership priorities beyond profit and productivity, including pause and pivot. 23:17 - The Eight F's Diagnostic Anthony introduces a simple framework for understanding the people you lead beyond what they produce. 8. RESOURCES If you’re navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation. To learn more about Anthony Barton and his work with Christian business leaders, visit Anthony Barton at Convene. You can also explore Convene. Resources: Ministry Transitions Anthony Barton at Convene Convene

What happens when trust breaks inside a church, nonprofit, or leadership team? Dr. Rob McKenna explains why trust is more than a feeling, how leaders can rebuild it after failure, and why succession is really the transfer of trust. This conversation explores emotional maturity, candor, vulnerability, blind spots, competence, reliability, and the three questions every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here? Key TakeawaysTrust has identifiable drivers, including candor, competence, reliability, emotional maturity, and concern for others.Nearly half of employees experience their workplace as a “jungle of trust.”Competence matters, but competence alone does not make someone a trusted leader.Rebuilding trust requires responsibility, self-awareness, grace, and continual repair.Succession is more than transferring a role; it is transferring trust into a team and organizational culture.Leaders must create conditions where people can tell the truth and receive difficult feedback.Every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?Chapter Markers00:00 – Succession as the transfer of trust 01:23 – Introducing Dr. Rob McKenna 02:15 – Why trust is difficult in ministry and nonprofit organizations 06:04 – The State of Trust at Work 08:34 – Signs that trust is missing 10:25 – Why competence alone is not enough 14:19 – What it means to be a whole leader 18:00 – Handling difficult conversations during transition 20:00 – Succession and the transfer of trust 24:51 – How leaders rebuild trust after failure 28:34 – Blind spots and meaningful change 32:44 – What individuals can do in a jungle of trust 35:57 – How organizations can begin rebuilding trust 39:00 – Closing thoughts and resources Visit MinistryTransitions.com if a leadership transition is exposing cracks in trust. To learn more about Dr. Rob McKenna’s work, Whole Leaders, Wild Trust, and WiLD Leaders’ tools, visit wildleaders.org.

Most ministry leaders expect to decide when they step away. Dennis Atwood never had that opportunity. After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved.  In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it. Key TakeawaysUnexpected health challenges can reshape both ministry and identity.Grief is a natural part of leaving a calling you deeply love.Gratitude isn't the absence of suffering but a response to God's faithfulness within it.Ministry leaders need purpose beyond the title they hold.God often brings deep spiritual formation through seasons we would never choose.Chapter Markers00:00 Dennis' pastoral journey and ministry background 01:45 An early Parkinson's diagnosis changes everything 03:30 Why Dennis kept his diagnosis private for years 07:45 Telling the church and preparing for transition 11:00 Missing ministry more than expected 13:15 Becoming a caregiver and navigating family transition 14:30 Holy discontent and living with purpose 16:20 Choosing gratitude through suffering 20:00 The dark night of the soul and spiritual formation 25:30 Encouragement for leaders whose ministry ended unexpectedly If you're facing a ministry transition or unexpected life change, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Dennis and his book Choosing Gratitude at Market Square Books.

Missionaries spend years preparing to go to the field, but few are prepared for what it feels like to come home. After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community. Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country.  Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition. Key TakeawaysReverse culture shock can be more difficult than moving overseas.Missionary transitions affect spouses, children, and the entire family.God often prepares leaders for future seasons long before they understand why.Returning missionaries bring valuable wisdom that can strengthen the local church.Waiting on God is an active posture of trust, not passive inactivity.Chapter Markers00:00 Job loss, the desert season, and God's unexpected call to Germany 04:30 Reaching a post-Christian culture through relationships 07:15 When God said it was time to come home 11:15 Reverse culture shock and becoming strangers in your own country 16:00 Helping third-culture kids navigate transition 20:15 How churches can better care for returning missionaries 23:30 What America can learn from post-Christian Europe 26:45 Financial transitions and rebuilding support 30:00 Waiting on God and discerning what's next 34:00 The Bruns Tribe and engaging the spiritually disengaged 36:30 Encouragement for missionaries in transition If you're navigating a ministry transition, we'd love to help. Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Nate and Brittany's ministry at The Bruns Tribe.

Few ministry leaders expect the end of their pastoral chapter to unfold differently than they imagined. Yet for many, transition arrives carrying both grief and unexpected opportunity. In this honest conversation, Scott Sauls reflects on stepping away after more than 30 years of pastoral ministry, processing the loss of a role he loved, recovering from work addiction, and discovering a new calling shepherding high-capacity leaders.  Along the way, he offers wisdom about identity, friendship, reconciliation, and trusting God when the future feels uncertain. Key Takeaways Ministry transitions often bring grief and relief at the same time. Work addiction can quietly shape a leader's identity and relationships. Healthy transitions begin with embracing who you are apart from your role. Every leader needs authentic friendships, not just professional relationships. The gospel calls us to love across differences, especially when it's difficult. Chapter Markers 00:00 Scott's ministry journey and pastoral background 02:20 An unexpected transition from pastoral ministry 05:00 Grief, relief, and leaving a church you love 07:00 Confronting work addiction through recovery 09:30 Is Scott still a pastor? 11:00 The birth of the Sycamore Community 16:30 Shepherding leaders outside the local church 18:30 The impact of ministry transitions on spouses and families 21:00 Loving across the lines of difference 27:00 The Mercy King and God's relentless love If you're navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Scott's work at Scott Sauls.

Founder transitions are some of the most difficult moments in ministry leadership, but they don't have to end poorly. After leading the church he planted for 27 years, Keith Spurgin shares the lessons he learned about succession, feedback, sabbaticals, and letting go with confidence.  He also reflects on the leadership mistakes he nearly made during COVID and how stepping away for a year ultimately prepared both him and his church for a healthy transition. Key Takeaways Healthy succession planning begins years before the transition. Founder transitions often succeed when leadership is shared rather than concentrated in one successor. Sabbaticals create space for leaders to rediscover who they are apart from their role. Feedback reveals blind spots that leaders cannot see on their own. Legacy is built by preparing others to succeed after you're gone. Chapter Markers 00:00 Introduction and Keith's ministry journey 00:45 Nearly derailing a succession plan during COVID 01:45 Why handing leadership to a team changed everything 06:45 Building trust before succession 07:45 Why Keith stayed away for six months after stepping down 09:00 Lessons from an unexpected year-long sabbatical 15:20 Why every leader needs honest feedback 18:15 Processing life after ministry 24:00 The Growth Resourcing Group 26:00 Unknown: Finding Connection in a Disconnected World 27:30 Why Keith's next book is about finishing well Preparing for a leadership transition? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Keith's leadership resources at Keith Spurgin.

Many leaders secretly believe their value comes from what they do. But what happens when the title disappears, the ministry ends, or life takes a turn you never expected? In this deeply personal conversation, Steve Cummings shares his journey through ministry leadership, addiction recovery, job loss, financial uncertainty, and ultimately discovering a deeper identity as a beloved son of God.  From sitting in rehab at age 55 to working at Home Depot and eventually launching Bringing Kingdom, Steve offers hope for anyone learning to trust God in a season they never planned for. Key Takeaways Your identity is not determined by your title, income, or position. Hidden struggles become more dangerous when they remain isolated. Recovery begins when honesty replaces shame. God often uses seasons of transition to reveal deeper truths about who we are. Ministry is not confined to a church building or nonprofit organization. Chapter Markers 00:00 Friendship, ministry history, and Steve's background 01:30 Seminary, missed opportunities, and unexpected career turns 03:45 Building a career in nonprofit ministry 06:00 Hidden struggles, addiction, and personal collapse 08:00 Rehab, recovery, and discovering the deeper issues 11:00 Losing a ministry position and starting over 12:30 Working at Home Depot and confronting identity 16:00 Launching Bringing Kingdom 21:30 The Father Eclipse and understanding father wounds 28:00 Helping men discover their identity 31:30 Financial uncertainty, faith, and trusting God's provision 40:30 Is there life after ministry? If you're navigating a leadership transition or difficult season, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Steve's ministry at Bringing Kingdom.

Most leaders know succession planning matters. Far fewer know how to start the conversation. In this episode, Gary Blackard, President and CEO of Adult & Teen Challenge USA, shares lessons from leading a national ministry, navigating leadership transitions, and helping people find hope in the midst of life's most difficult challenges. From succession planning and organizational stewardship to addiction recovery and spiritual formation, Gary offers practical wisdom for leaders who want their influence to outlast their tenure. Key Takeaways Succession planning is an act of stewardship, not a signal that leadership is ending. Leaders often avoid succession conversations because of fear, identity, or lack of self-awareness. Hope is a critical ingredient in personal transformation and lasting change. Healthy leadership begins with a strong private relationship with God. Legacy is protected when leaders intentionally prepare others to carry the mission forward. Chapter Markers 00:00 Introduction and Gary's leadership journey 01:30 Transitioning into Adult & Teen Challenge leadership 04:20 The history and mission of Adult & Teen Challenge 09:40 Ministry leaders, addiction, and the importance of the private altar 12:00 Spiritual disciplines that sustain healthy leadership 15:20 Why hope matters during seasons of change 18:30 Facing the succession elephant 21:30 Why leaders avoid succession planning 27:00 Building a lasting leadership legacy 33:40 The Hope Within Reach podcast and helping families navigate addiction 37:00 Final thoughts and encouragement Navigating a leadership transition or preparing for succession? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Listen to Hope Within Reach and learn more about Adult & Teen Challenge at Adult & Teen Challenge USA

Success in ministry can hide struggles that few people ever see.  While Will Acuff was helping build a nonprofit that would eventually launch thousands of entrepreneurs and transform communities, his family was walking through years of exhaustion, medical challenges, and uncertainty.  The contrast forced him to confront a difficult question: what happens when the strategies that helped you succeed no longer work? In this conversation, Will shares the lessons he learned through leadership succession, personal suffering, and the unexpected journey that led him to write No Elevator to Everest.  For leaders facing transition, burnout, or uncertainty, this episode offers a hopeful vision for finding joy that is not dependent on circumstances. Key Takeaways Succession works best when leadership development starts long before the transition. Healthy transitions require trust, coaching, and ongoing support after the handoff. High-capacity leaders often struggle to acknowledge their own pain and limitations. Joy is cultivated through intentional practices, not favorable circumstances. Faithful leadership requires both knowledge of God and honest knowledge of ourselves. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and Will's ministry background 03:45 Launching Corner to Corner and helping entrepreneurs escape poverty 07:50 Why the Church should lead community transformation 11:10 Succession planning and transitioning leadership as a founder 19:55 Parenting through complex disabilities and chronic hardship 24:00 Creating a "joy lab" in the middle of suffering 29:00 The story behind No Elevator to Everest 31:00 Advice for burned-out ministry leaders 35:00 Finding joy in the middle of hard 35:40 Resources, book, and final encouragement If you're navigating a ministry transition or leadership challenge, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Will's work at Corner to Corner and his book at No Elevator to Everest.

Leaving ministry is rarely a simple decision.  For many pastors, it comes after years of carrying responsibility, managing expectations, and trying to care for everyone around them while quietly neglecting themselves and their families.  In this episode, Shawn Gwaltney shares the story of how ministry slowly became unsustainable, what pushed him toward transition, and how he eventually rediscovered purpose through business, mentorship, and helping others find clarity.  This conversation offers hope for leaders wrestling with burnout, identity loss, and the fear of what comes next after ministry. Key Takeaways Ministry burnout often grows slowly through constant emotional pressure and unclear boundaries Many pastors already possess leadership and relational skills that transfer well into the marketplace Identity can become deeply tied to the title of “pastor,” making transition emotionally difficult Healthy leadership in business still requires empathy, discipleship, and genuine care for people Clarity is often the first step toward healing and rebuilding after ministry transition Chapter Markers 00:00 – Shawn’s return to church and entry into ministry 03:20 – The pressures that pushed ministry toward burnout 07:20 – Choosing family over vocational ministry 10:20 – Systems pastors wish they had built sooner 11:20 – Transferable leadership skills pastors already have 16:00 – Wrestling with identity after leaving ministry 18:30 – Faith, wealth, and business ownership 23:00 – Helping pastors find clarity after transition 26:00 – Meaning, purpose, and life after success 28:20 – Shawn’s mission to help others grow If you’re navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions. And to connect with Shawn Gwaltney and learn more about his mentorship and business resources, visit Shawn Gwaltney.

The Church is carrying more tension than many leaders know how to navigate. Political polarization, fractured trust, rising anxiety, and unrealistic expectations on pastors are reshaping congregations across the country.  In this conversation, Dr. Andrew Hale shares why he believes the Church is not collapsing but entering a moment of reformation.  Together, we explore how ministry leaders can stop treating non-essential issues as ultimate ones, rebuild authentic community, and lead congregations toward healthier relationships rooted in Christ instead of cultural division. Key Takeaways Conflict in the Church is not new, but today’s divisions are being amplified by politics and cultural anxiety. Many churches have elevated non-essential issues above the central mission of Jesus. Ministry leaders are carrying unrealistic expectations while trust in institutions continues to decline. Healthy churches create space for diverse perspectives and authentic relationships. This cultural moment may be less about the collapse of the Church and more about a needed reformation. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Andrew Hale’s ministry background and love for the Church 03:00 — Why churches are becoming more divided 07:42 — Organizational psychology and understanding conflict 09:16 — Essential vs. non-essential issues in the Church 16:18 — Declining trust in institutions and ministry burnout 19:12 — Have we placed too much pressure on pastors? 23:19 — Why this moment may be reformation, not collapse 27:24 — Political idolatry and the future of the Church 30:57 — Where to find Dr. Andrew Hale and his book If this conversation resonated with you, we’d encourage you to take the next step. Whether you’re navigating conflict, leadership transition, succession planning, or simply trying to lead your church through a complicated season with wisdom and clarity, the team at Ministry Transitions is here to help.  You can also learn more from Dr. Andrew Hale’s work on church health, division, and renewal at AndrewRHale.com and explore his book Mending the Fracturing Church wherever books are sold.