Advertise on podcast: Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Continuous Improvement and Transformational Change

How do you build deeper human connection in your relationships so that you can more effectively lead change and help others? That question sits at the heart of some of the most influential books in my work, including Helping and Humble Inquiry by Edgar Schein: how we help, not as the expert with all the answers, but by asking better questions as a leader and creating the conditions for other people to develop their own ideas. Edgar’s work has profoundly shaped how I think about leadership, learning, and helping. And in the later years of his life, his son Peter Schein became an important partner in continuing to develop and evolve these ideas of humble leadership and organizational culture. Peter spent 30 years in Silicon Valley in corporate strategy and development before partnering with his father to co-write seven books. He recently released the third edition of Humble Inquiry, continuing to bring these foundational ideas forward for how we lead, learn, and create change today. In this conversation, Peter and I explore how to move beyond transactional relationships to build genuine personal ones. We get underneath the meaning of many of the words we use today—curiosity, vulnerability, and psychological safety—and why seeking clarity gets you further than seeking certainty. You’ll Learn: Why "don’t bring me a problem, bring me a solution" teaches people not to speak upWhy you're most vulnerable when you don't know what you're missingHow "Sharing the MIC" makes humble inquiry practical: Motivation, Intervention, ContributionThe difference between helping as the expert with the answer and helping as the process consultant who creates the conditionsWhy going to see isn't the same as transparencyABOUT MY GUEST:Peter Schein is the co-founder of the Organizational Culture and Leadership Institute. He spent thirty years in Silicon Valley in strategy and corporate development at companies including Apple, Silicon Graphics, and Sun Microsystems, and studied anthropology at Stanford University. Peter partnered with his father, Edgar Schein, to co-write seven books, including Humble Leadership, and has continued to evolve their work through new editions of Humble Inquiry and The Corporate Culture Survival Guide. Edgar Schein was Professor Emeritus at MIT's Sloan School of Management and is recognized as one of the founders of organizational psychology. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/86 Connect with Peter Schein on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/peteraschein Learn more about the Organizational Culture and Leadership Institute: scheinocli.org Read Helping, Humble Inquiry, and Humble Leadership: scheinocli.org/publications Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:06 Transactional vs. relational leadership and why connection matters08:10 Why efficiency without relationships limits effectiveness12:19 When expertise gets in the way of seeing the bigger picture16:24 Why clarity matters more than certainty20:31 When curiosity, vulnerability, and psychological safety become buzzwords22:08 Why you’re vulnerable to what you don’t know24:36 What Humble Inquiry actually looks like in leadership27:26 How Humble Inquiry builds both trust and better information28:35 Why “bring me solutions, not problems” keeps people from speaking up30:35 How to “Share the MIC” and make Humble Inquiry practical36:21 Helping as the expert vs. helping as a process consultant38:33 How AI is changing where leaders and consultants add value44:03 Making invisible team dynamics visible49:35 Why being open to what you don’t know changes how you lead52:26 What going to Gemba teaches us about Humble Inquiry54:29 Why transparency and openness aren’t the same thing

Enter for your chance to win a copy of "Thoughtload" by Liane Davey: http://chainoflearning.com/85Giveaway ends October 9th at 11:45pm Pacific Time. Your team isn't resisting change. They don't have room for it. It's not just workload that's overwhelming us, it's what Liane Davey calls our "thoughtload": the invisible tax on our performance and presence. Liane is an organizational psychologist who works with CEOs and executive teams leading organizational transformation. In her latest book she uncovers how complexity, decisions, and emotional weight are draining us, leaving us feeling like there's too much to do and no space left to think. We bring home what's weighing on us at work, and what we're worried about comes to the next meeting with us. We end up half-present, consumed by what's going on inside, not what's in front of us. Liane shares how to lighten the noise inside your head to focus your attention, work through what you're carrying emotionally, and get your energy back. Urgency, constant change, and the pressure to deliver aren't going away. But thoughtload is something you can manage, before it turns into leadership burnout for you or your team. You’ll Learn: Why the person pushing back on your organizational change isn't a resistor, and what is actually going on inside their brainWhy we've become intolerant of iteration, and how to position a decision so that correcting course doesn't land as flip-floppingHow your team can be busy, productive, and still not moving toward the outcomeHow a heavy thoughtload keeps you from having a hard conversation, and how avoiding productive conflict makes your load heavierWhat it means to "metabolize your thoughtload", and why filling every walk and commute with input leaves no room to thinkABOUT MY GUEST:Dr. Liane Davey is an organizational psychologist and New York Times bestselling author who advises executive teams on strategy, decision-making, and team dynamics. She is co-founder of the firm 3COze and the author of The Good Fight and Thoughtload. Her doctoral research on how team dynamics affect innovation has shaped three decades of her work with senior leaders. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/85Connect with Liane Davey: linkedin.com/in/lianedaveyPurchase a copy of Liane's book: thoughtload.comLearn more about Liane: lianedavey.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonSubscribe to my newsletter: KBJAnderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/JapanTripTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:00 Why it’s not the workload—it’s the thoughtload 06:00 How thoughtload undermines team performance 08:00 Why overwhelm shifts leaders from reflection to reaction 11:00 Three ways to manage your thoughtload 12:00 Why being productive doesn’t mean you’re effective 16:45 The problem with having too many priorities 19:00 How leaders can lighten their team’s thoughtload 20:45 Why your brain needs space to process, not more input 23:00 What change leaders miss about resistance 24:30 Why labeling people “change resistors” gets it wrong 29:30 How avoiding conflict makes your thoughtload heavier 32:30 Why managing thoughtload means saying no to good things 36:15 When changing direction is learning—not flip-flopping 37:25 What deserves to be in your thoughtload?

People-centered. Learning organization. Culture of continuous improvement. We use a lot of different words to describe what we are trying to create. But do we actually mean the same thing? And if we all want it, what's stopping us from getting there? And what is the one thing that could have the biggest impact? So I asked. And you answered. Leaders and change practitioners around the world responded. There wasn't one shared definition or set of words for a people-centered learning culture. But the same essence was in almost every answer. The pressures we're all working in are real, and they're not going away. Yet the biggest impact comes from something we can influence: our own leadership behavior. And that starts with us. You’ll Learn: Why "people-centered" and "learning" are intertwined concepts that support each other in creating a learning organizationHow to describe what we're trying to build to leaders who never ask for a people-centered learning cultureWhy "respect for people" means more than treating people well, and how it's fundamental to developing people and organizational successHow urgency, firefighting, and short-term pressure to deliver results exacerbate our pull toward doing rather than developing peopleWhy the environment is seen as the barrier, and leadership behavior is the lever for changeIMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/84 Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/JapanTrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:03 What leaders actually want from their teams 04:31 Why urgency gets in the way of developing people 06:17 How ego and leader behavior limit ownership 08:22 When fear makes it harder to speak up and learn 10:37 The biggest lever for creating a people-centered culture 12:35 Why we can’t wait for the system to change 14:08 How caring pulls us into the Doer Trap 15:47 What “respect for people” really means 17:28 What people-centered leadership looks like in practice 18:07 How learning happens through the work 20:49 What people need to solve their own problems 22:35 Start with what you can influence

Overstepping ownership rarely looks like overstepping. It looks like moving things along. You know how something could be improved, so you give your suggestion. Work gets done, progress is visible, but the person you were there to develop doesn't build the capability they need, and the improvement doesn't sustain. Every change leader, manager, and executive does this at some point. And when we take on ownership of what isn't ours, we end up the bottleneck. As a transformational change leader at Kaiser Permanente, Anna Pessah watches this play out every day with the internal consulting team she leads, and with the physician and operational leaders she supports. We break down this challenge and share the practices to use instead. Leaders don't need to stop helping or teaching. It's about getting clear about what each person owns, and adjusting how you help based on what that leader needs in the moment. When ownership sits in the right place, people grow, improvements hold, and you have the space to do what is actually yours to do. You’ll Learn: How to make ownership explicit from the start, by contracting up front and saying out loud which hat you're wearing, coach or consultant or teacherWhy leaders learn good coaching practices best by being coached, and how making your own practice visible lets others model itWhy the pull to step in gets stronger the more you care about the outcomeWhy a new practice often swings too far one direction at first, and how to find the middle without abandoning itWhen asking coaching questions stops being helpful, and how to be directive without taking over the thinkingABOUT MY GUEST: Anna Pessah leads the internal consulting team that oversees the operating system at the North Valley Service Area of Kaiser Permanente, where she coaches physician and operational leaders on strategy, management systems, and the behaviors that support a culture of improvement. She is an industrial engineer from the University of Michigan and an ICF-certified coach. Anna brings a blend of systems thinking, operational improvement, and leadership development to help leaders generate insight, turn goals into action, and build habits that stick. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/83 Connect with Anna Pessah: linkedin.com/in/anna-pessah Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:16 Why change leaders struggle to keep ownership with leaders 05:22 When helping starts creating dependence 06:15 Building capability instead of becoming the bottleneck 07:12 Why doing more can make your job harder 09:23 Getting explicit about roles and ownership 11:25 Why new practices require reflection and adjustment 13:17 Making your leadership practices visible 16:03 How to give direction without taking over 22:16 What happens when leaders operate at the wrong level 24:05 The personal cost of staying in the weeds 25:30 Why helping can turn into overstepping 27:43 When coaching questions aren’t helpful 31:25 The power of listening—and leaving space 36:46 Why humility is essential to learning 38:18 Recognizing your own pull to control 39:06 Simple practices for keeping ownership where it belongs

Profit or cash. Efficiency or flexibility. Speed, or doing it right. Leaders feel like they have to make trade-offs like these all the time. But the choice often isn't real. Some contradictions are unavoidable. Others only look that way until you understand the real problem. The most effective organizations realize they don't have to pick a side if they can resolve the underlying tension. Olivier Larue has spent three decades helping companies do this, which he's documented in his three-book series The Toyota Economic System: a philosophy about people and society, the technical design that turns it into results, and the management practices that keep it alive through continuous learning. The real breakthrough is never the tools, optimizing one part of the system, or making unnecessary tradeoffs. It's how every part connects, and understanding the real problem to solve, so people remain the focus and results last. You’ll Learn: How to tell a contradiction that's real from one that only looks real, so you stop choosing between things you can't afford to loseWhy an economic lens, not an operational one, changes where you look for the answerWhy the number and order of Toyota's seven wastes aren't arbitrary, and why the first one drives how you understand the restWhy declaring people "empowered" means nothing without the conditions that let them act on itHow respect for people extends to avoiding layoffs even in downturns, and why that matters in a world of AI and supply chain disruptionsABOUT MY GUEST:Olivier Larue was trained by Toyota Motor Corporation and has spent thirty years helping Fortune 500 companies design and implement industrial manufacturing solutions, including more than a decade as a consultant with TSSC, the Toyota Production System Support Center, and hands-on work in the biopharmaceutical industry. He is the founder and president of Ydatum, and the author of the three-book series The Toyota Economic System. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/82 Connect with Olivier Larue: linkedin.com/in/olivierlarue Purchase a copy of The Toyota Economic System (three-book series): https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Economic-System-Environmental-StewardshipLearn more about Ydatum: ydatum.com Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:02:43 How a NUMMI experience shaped Olivier years later 05:14 Why call it the Toyota Economic System? 09:42 Profit vs. cash: the trade-off companies get wrong 12:32 Why Just-in-Time doesn’t mean zero inventory 16:30 What happens when company values and work conflict 20:20 Why leaders have to “earn” how they manage 21:42 Why Toyota’s seven wastes are in a specific order 23:38 The hidden cost of human waiting 27:20 Why leadership skills alone aren’t enough 30:05 Why organizations keep repeating the same problems 31:26 What Andon actually means for empowerment 35:17 The leadership response that makes problems safe to surface 39:16 Why Toyota can avoid layoffs during downturns 44:30 The unanswered question about AI and economic growth 48:30 How enthusiasm turns pull into push 50:44 Why isolated improvements don’t transform systems 54:35 Refusing the either/or trade-off

Your leadership style isn't the problem. Your default is. The gap between how you're leading and what the person in front of you actually needs is one of the most common and most invisible places leaders get stuck. Most of us default to one mode and don't notice the mismatch until something breaks down. Suzie Bishop has spent over a decade at the Center for Leadership Studies helping leaders close that gap and strengthen their leadership effectiveness. Her new book, Situational Leadership, puts nearly sixty years of research into a practical framework for reading the situation, building leadership flexibility, and adapting your approach. Suzie walks through the four leadership styles, how to read what someone needs in a given situation, and how to adapt your approach to coach, develop leaders, and lead through influence. The best leaders don't pick one style and commit. They pause, assess the situation, and flex to have the impact you intend. You’ll Learn: Why "leadership is influence" reframes how you lead, and why influence has nothing to do with manipulation or controlHow to diagnose what someone needs, and why one person can require four different approaches in the same conversationHow leadership flexibility and adaptability differ—and why knowing the styles isn't the same as knowing when to use themWhy only asking coaching questions can leave people stuck, and how to know when to step in with more directive leadershipHow the "power of the pause" helps you move from reacting out of habit to adapting with intentionABOUT MY GUEST: Suzie Bishop is VP of Product Development at The Center for Leadership Studies. She's a Certified Professional in Training Management, a Stakeholder Centered Coach, and a Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coach. Suzie is co-author of Situational Leadership: The Model for Leading Others, Navigating Change and Unlocking Performance and is currently writing her next book, Match: How to Meet Leaders Where They Are, with Marshall Goldsmith. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/81 Connect with Suzie Bishop: linkedin.com/in/suzie-bishop Purchase a copy: Situational Leadership: The Model for Leading Others, Navigating Change and Unlocking Performance by Suzie Bishop and Sam ShriverMatch: How to Meet Leaders Where They Are by Suzie Bishop and Marshall Goldsmith (November 2026)Learn more about The Center for Leadership Studies: situational.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:52 Why leadership is influence, not control 04:43 Creating the conditions without controlling 06:51 What Situational Leadership looks like in practice 07:35 Flexibility vs. adaptability: the critical difference 07:48 The four Situational Leadership styles 11:41 How to recognize your natural leadership tendency 13:08 When asking questions isn’t effective coaching 16:46 How to be directive without taking away ownership 17:37 The cost of not adapting how you lead 21:37 Why organizations need a common leadership language 24:05 Creating the conditions for people to ask for help 25:24 The leadership challenge even top executives struggle with 29:06 How to give direction without taking over 30:33 Influence versus control when you have authority 31:06 Three types of power that shape your influence 32:51 Why trust is your most important source of power 36:02 The difference between flexibility and adaptability 37:08 Practice an intention pause before you respond

How many problems are actually visible in your organization? Research shows senior leaders see just 4%. The other 96% stay hidden — invisible, yet still there. And some aren't even recognized by employees as problems anymore, because they have become the norm. We all say we want psychological safety. But you don't get it by saying you want it. People-centered leadership is about creating conditions for people to speak up and highlight issues by how you, and leaders across your system, respond. Recorded live with a group of global leaders participating in my Japan Leadership Experience in May 2026, this special episode celebrates the sixth anniversary of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. You'll hear Isao Yoshino, a 40-year Toyota leader and the subject of my book, reflect on three of the book's most talked-about stories. These examples bring two of Toyota's mottos to life, "bad news first" and "no problem is a problem," and show why a leader's response is what turns problems into a culture of improvement: How his manager's response to a huge paint-shop mistake in his first months at Toyota shaped how he saw a leader's roleHow andon — signaling a problem and stopping the line — changed the culture at NUMMIHow he found the courage to highlight his failing water ski boat business to President Fujio ChoWhether on the front line or in the boardroom, creating the conditions where bad news comes first, and support follows, is what builds a culture of excellence. You’ll Learn: Why a leader's response to a mistake is fundamental to effective leadership and matters more than the mistake itselfThe two actions behind a bad-news-first culture: respond down to help, not blame, and signal up when something's off courseWhy andon is a leadership practice, not just a factory signal, that works from the shop floor to the executive suiteWhat the NUMMI turnaround shows about culture change: people adopt a better way when they discover it, not when they're toldWhy "thank you for this mistake" is the keystone move for building psychological safetyABOUT MY GUEST: Isao Yoshino spent forty years at Toyota, from the late 1960s to the early 2000s, where he helped shape the people-centered learning culture the company is known for today. He was a key leader in the Kan-Pro senior-management development program and led the training of the American managers at NUMMI, the Toyota-GM joint venture, where he hired John Shook. He is the subject of Katie Anderson's Shingo Publication Award-winning book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/80Order your copy of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantripTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:02:18 Andon: Why a leader's response matters 03:16 The paint mistake that shaped Mr. Yoshino's leadership 05:28 Why Mr. Yoshino was thanked for his mistake 09:34 The leadership lesson that lasted 40 years 11:22 Why Toyota starts every leader on the front line 12:18 Inside the early days of NUMMI 17:13 Why workers were afraid to stop the line 23:34 What changed the culture at NUMMI 24:40 Why leaders only see 4% of problems 25:16 Responding down instead of blaming 25:50 Asking for help at the leadership level 28:43 Why President Cho flew to a failing business 34:17 The power of bad news first 35:54 Mr. Yoshino's biggest leadership regret 38:19 When doing it yourself becomes the problem 39:05 The response that creates culture 40:28 The two behaviors every leader needs 42:02 Two questions to reflect on this week

Efficiency and cost savings aren't what makes operational excellence last. People are. The leaders who create enduring, high-performing organizations are after something beyond business results. They want a company where people end the day more capable, more confident, more energized than when it began. That's the difference between a workplace that wears people down and one that builds powerful people. Gary Peterson spent more than 30 years building that kind of culture of continuous improvement at OC Tanner. But the hardest part wasn't creating the systems or processes to get better outcomes. It was his own transformation — coming to see how, without meaning to, he'd become the leader getting in his people's way. Put people first, and the results follow.  And the deepest transformation you'll ever lead is your own. You’ll Learn: Why operational excellence only lasts when leaders focus on building people, not just cutting costs and eliminating wasteWhy the best leaders make an identity shift from being the expert with every answer to creating the conditions for others to solve problemsWhat it takes to move managers from enforcers to coaches and make continuous improvement something your team never fears, even as roles and headcount shiftHow to influence real organizational change when you have no authority to make anyone followWhy so many leaders give up on culture change too soon, and how long it really takesABOUT MY GUEST: Gary Peterson spent more than 30 years at OC Tanner, where he held leadership roles across manufacturing, marketing, and operations, most recently as Executive Vice President of Supply Chain and Manufacturing. He led the people-first transformation that earned OC Tanner the Shingo Prize and made it one of the few companies Toyota holds up as a global showcase for its system outside automotive. Gary is an Association for Manufacturing Excellence Hall of Fame inductee. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/79 Connect with Gary Peterson: linkedin.com/in/garypeterson Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join me on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantripTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:44 Why Toyota saw something different at OC Tanner 05:02 The real purpose of operational excellence 07:19 How Gary knew the culture was changing 09:00 Creating people who change the world 12:13 The outcome every leader should want 13:07 Two pillars that shaped the journey 14:26 Breaking a culture of fear and control 15:35 The five-minute habit that changed everything 17:15 Redefining what it means to be a manager 19:12 Why transformation takes longer than you think 20:05 What to do when leaders don't support the change 22:26 The experiment that almost got shut down 24:19 Helping managers make the coaching shift 25:23 When people outgrow their leaders 28:28 Why improvement should never threaten jobs 30:23 The manager who couldn't stop yelling 32:23 The leadership habit that destroys ownership 35:35 Becoming the leader you never wanted to be 37:00 The habit that was holding people back 38:01 The executive behavior that shuts people down 40:07 Proving your worth vs. creating conditions 45:37 Showing results isn't the same as showing people 49:53 Where transformation really begins 51:16 The question every leader should ask about their people 53:34 When helping starts limiting growth 55:14 The shift that made everything else possible

Have you poured months into a strategy your team couldn't bring to life? Or watched capable people work harder than ever, and still struggle to pull together as a team? High performance isn't about a better strategy, more talent, or longer hours. It's about how your team works together, every single day. Karina Mangu-Ward, author of Teams That Meet the Moment, has spent more than a decade helping complex organizations redesign the messy day-to-day of how people actually get things done together. Her belief: good everyday teaming habits are both good for people and good for results. You don't have to choose between them. Making this real doesn't require a reinvention. You just need the right structure and the intention to show up differently. In this episode, Karina shares simple, tangible practices you can use in your very next meeting or strategic project. You’ll Learn: The three lies leaders tell themselves about teamwork, and why believing them holds your team backHow the framework of the "Even Over" ends the swirl when your team is stuck choosing between two competing optionsWhy creating a "Safe to Try" process gets a team unstuck when you're chasing consensus and certaintyWhat a steady team cadence unlocks when everything around you feels like an emergencyThe instinct nearly every high performer has to unlearn before they can build a team that thrivesABOUT MY GUEST:Karina Mangu-Ward is a partner at August Public, an organizational change consultancy that helps large, complex organizations build more human-centered ways of working, whose clients include PepsiCo, Planned Parenthood, and Sundance. She's the author of Teams That Meet the Moment: 9 Practices for Unlocking Performance and Growth in Uncertain Times. Karina's passion is helping groups navigate complexity, gain insight, and unlock highly complex challenges. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/78 Connect with Karina: linkedin.com/in/karina-mangu-ward Purchase a copy of Karina's book: Teams That Meet the MomentLearn more about Karina’s company: aug.co Take the Team assessment: assessment.aug.co Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:01 Why great strategy still fails04:13 The hustle culture myth that's burning teams out05:20 Everyday habits drive extraordinary teams07:11 Meeting the moment in uncertain times09:13 The "Safe to Try" mindset that breaks gridlock11:18 Setting guardrails without limiting innovation12:06 Why small bets outperform big risks13:29 Unlearning the need to have the answer15:17 Why sticky practices beat complicated frameworks17:16 Simple retrospectives that strengthen learning20:19 The surprising cost of treating everything like an emergency22:09 Using "Even Over" to make better trade-offs25:28 Intention over reaction in decision-making30:32 When perfection becomes procrastination31:53 Why working in public accelerates learning34:22 The power of stories over instruction37:08 Intention + practice = better leadership39:14 What trade-off do you need to make?

Joy isn't a perk. It's a business strategy. Have you ever wondered whether work has to feel this hard? Whether the team you've built can actually function without you? Whether there's a way to lead that doesn't burn you — or your people — out? Rich Sheridan built Menlo Innovations around one bold idea: ending human suffering in the workplace. The result is a company where joy isn't a slogan. It's how things actually get done. It's a place built on collaboration, human energy, and pride in what people create together. Joy isn't constant happiness. It's the long arc of meaning and contribution alongside people who care. And it becomes possible the moment you stop being the center of every problem and start creating the conditions for ownership, continuous learning, and yes, joy. You don't have to change the world. You just have to change your world. You’ll Learn: The mistake most leaders make about mistakes, and why more mistakes can get you ahead fasterWhy what looks like a questionable decision from below makes sense from aboveThe difference between joy and happiness, and why most leaders are chasing the wrong thingWhy running a small experiment will move you further than creating the perfect planWhat it really takes to build a company designed to last a hundred yearsABOUT MY GUEST:Rich Sheridan is the co-founder, CEO, and Chief Storyteller of Menlo Innovations, a software development and consulting firm known for its people-centered culture and focus on joy in the workplace. He is the author of Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy Officer and was inducted into the Shingo Academy in 2022 for his contributions to organizational excellence. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/77Connect with Rich Sheridan: linkedin.com/in/menloprezFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantripPurchase a copy of Rich's books: Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy OfficerLearn more about Menlo Innovations: menloinnovations.comTugboat Institute: tugboatinstitute.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:02:37 When work no longer feels sustainable05:26 The moment Rich realized the problem wasn't technology07:27 What an 8-year-old noticed about leadership08:23 Why hero-based organizations scale through exhaustion09:39 When caring becomes carrying12:21 The codependency leaders develop with crises14:09 What joy at work actually means17:13 Working with pride and delighting customers19:17 Why human energy is a leadership responsibility21:00 What's the cost of not having joy?23:28 From constant firefighting to two emergencies in 25 years25:24 Joy vs. happiness: What's the difference?27:02 Why joy isn't happiness every day32:17 The phrase that keeps Menlo moving forward 34:15 The leadership lesson Rich learned from flying40:39 Why Menlo isn't chasing exponential growth43:02 The book that changed Rich's career45:18 Why crisis practices work when there isn't a crisis47:28 Why your system keeps producing the same results49:38 The shift from carrying to creating conditions for change leadership51:46 Why stepping in can hold people back

What does it really take to sustain a culture of continuous improvement –  through pressure for results, across generations, and into an era of AI? In this final episode of my three-part series with John Shook, one of the most influential leaders and thinkers in the global lean community, we turned to the questions on your mind.  Before we sat down to record, I asked listeners to submit your questions. We cover four of them specifically here, though many others were addressed in Parts 1 and 2, and together they highlight the tensions change leaders and executives face every day. At the end, as we promised in Part 2, John shares his parting reflections and advice for all of us leading transformation to create people-centered learning cultures. It’s not just what we should stop doing, it’s what we need to continue. Starting with ourselves. If you haven't listened to episodes 74 and 75 yet, start there first as you won’t want to miss hearing this conversation in full. You'll Learn: Why leaders should be patient for results but impatient for actionWhy getting to the assumptions that underlie your principles and values is where the real work of culture change beginsHow aligning around the real problem to solve helps close the gap across generations and perspectivesWhat the original intention of jidoka — separating machine work from human work — can teach us about navigating AI and keeping technology in service of peopleThe real purpose of kaizen and continuous improvementABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application.IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/76Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: https://kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead/ TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:28 [Listener Question] How do you balance patience with action? 04:06 Avoiding solution jumping and analysis paralysis 05:20 [Listener Question] What will matter most for the next generation of organizations? 07:21 Why underlying assumptions matter more than artifacts 08:28 The deeper level of hansei and reflection 08:53 [Listener Question] How do you bridge generations without slowing improvement? 10:43 Quick PDCA vs. long-cycle learning 11:23 Aligning people around shared purpose 13:56 [Listener Question] In our age of AI, how do we stay true to jidoka's original intent, separating machine work from human work? 14:12 AI, jidoka, and protecting human work 15:23 Four questions to navigate uncertainty 16:17 Why respect for people still matters in AI 17:15 Jidoka beyond “automation with a human touch” 18:54 Curiosity, experiments, and learning with AI 19:30 The promise and risk of AI thinking for us 22:08 PDCA beyond engineering and problem solving 25:39 The purpose of kaizen is to do more kaizen 26:18 Creating conditions for people to think and grow 27:00 Shifting from leading change to creating conditions

Lean has always been about people. We just kept reaching for the tools, without understanding the human purpose behind them. In part two of my three-part conversation with John Shook, we go behind the scenes of Toyota's culture and leadership — sharing stories of the system-building leaders who actually made it what it is, and exploring what it really means to lead people-centered change. John shares behind-the-scenes reflections from his time inside Toyota that you might not have heard before. Drawing on his direct experience in the company and our shared experiences living and working in Japan and globally, we explore a critical feature that is often missed: lean has always been a socio-technical system. The tools only work when we understand the deeper human purpose behind them. In this episode, we talk about the people who actually built Toyota's culture, what John learned from his two very different bosses — including Isao Yoshino, the subject of my book “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn” — and what happens when we lose sight of the human purpose inside the tools we practice every day. In the previous episode, John offered a powerful reframe on lean's impact — and what question we should really be asking as change leaders. If you haven't listened to episode 74 yet, hit pause and start there first — then come back to this one to pick up where we left off. You'll Learn: Inside stories of how Toyota's culture was built and the system builders behind itWhat John learned from his very different bosses inside Toyota and how their styles shaped his own leadershipWhether you are a lean “mechanic” or “social worker” and what your answer reveals about your leadershipWhy every lean tool is already socio-technical — kanban, standardized work, A3, andon — and what we lost when we introduced them as primarily technicalThe concept of motainai — waste as a moral failure, not just a technical one — and why this matters for how you leadABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/75Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:04 Why changing culture is harder than copying systems 04:05 John’s question that still drives him: Why Toyota? 05:10 How John found his way into Toyota and NUMMI 06:15 Why Toyota endured while other Japanese companies faded 07:10 Short-term leaders vs. long-term system builders 08:15 The crisis that shaped Toyota’s future direction 10:05 John’s experience learning from very different Toyota leaders 11:15 Why conflicting feedback accelerated John’s learning 12:10 Bringing your own thinking into the A3 process 13:15 Different cultures inside Toyota and how they shaped leadership 14:10 Mr. Cho’s powerful way of teaching through stories 16:10 Katie’s lion story and breaking the telling habit 17:15 Adapting your leadership approach to the situation 19:15 Reading both the technical and social sides of change 20:20 TPS as a way to expose weaknesses and accelerate growth 21:45 Are you a lean mechanic or a lean social worker? 22:50 Identifying your leadership bias and growth edge 24:05 Why process improvement and OD teams should work together 27:10 Scientific thinking, humanism, and ethics in Toyota leadership 28:55 Eliminating waste as more than a technical exercise 30:05 Mottainai and the deeper meaning of waste 32:25 Why lean tools were always socio-technical 33:40 Kanban, standardized work, and the human side of lean 35:10 The A3 as more than a problem-solving tool 37:35 The most common failure mode in lean transformations 38:30 When lean becomes the goal instead of the means 39:30 Why lean isn’t just for executives 40:35 Improving work at every level of the organization 41:40 Why empowerment without support falls apart 42:20 The Andon system as a model for real support 43:45 Where do you need to grow: technical or human?

Has lean really failed? That question sparked one of the most listened-to conversations in the history of this podcast — my two-part series with Jim Womack in episodes 37 and 38. When I sat down with John Shook — one of the most influential thought leaders and practitioners in the global lean and continuous improvement community — we explored a different angle. John's perspective isn't a rebuttal. It's a reframe. A counterpoint to the question itself. John asks: what problem are we really trying to solve? His answer unfolds across three episodes — the first ever three-part series on Chain of Learning. And I think it will change how you think about your own impact as a change leader. You’ll Learn: Why the question "how many lean enterprises have we created?" may be leading us in the wrong direction — and what we should ask insteadThe difference between "command and control" and what John calls "command and abandon" — and which one you're more likely doingWhy the key question in problem-solving is not "is this accurate?" but "is this useful?"How to recognize your span of influence and build systems at the right level that help people think, learn, and take ownershipWhy purpose → work → capability is the right sequence — and why most leaders start in the wrong placeABOUT MY GUEST:John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/74Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comJoin us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Grab a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:00 Why John Shook believes we may be asking the wrong question about lean 05:25 Why change leadership always starts with changing yourself 06:40 The tension between influencing others and trying to control them 08:15 What a people-centered learning culture actually looks like in practice 09:05 Why John avoids lean jargon and starts with the problem instead 10:00 The Toyota question that shaped John’s thinking: “What problem are you trying to solve?” 11:15 Why learning only matters when it’s grounded in the work 12:30 Toyota’s “attitude toward learning” and why it changes everything 15:05 Why leaders must create the environment for learning and problem-solving 16:00 How organizations drift into “big company disease” 17:05 Why purpose → work → capability is the sequence most leaders miss 18:15 The risk of starting culture change with leadership behaviors alone 19:20 Why focusing on the work reveals what’s really blocking change 21:00 Why John sees more “command and abandon” than command and control 23:20 Focusing on your span of influence instead of waiting for senior leaders 27:15 How every person at work already has “problem consciousness” 29:00 The surprising truth about who is most frustrated in organizations 32:15 Building systems at your level that create ownership and capability 33:20 Why modeling the behavior matters more than pushing harder 36:15 Why sustainable change starts with how you show up each day

The way you’re leading transformation might be getting in the way of the culture you’re trying to build. As change leaders and practitioners, we care about results. But in that focus, it’s easy to stay on the outer work—processes, metrics, systems—and underestimate the inner work – our mindset, behaviors, and relationships – that actually moves people. Our passion can unintentionally pull us away from creating the conditions for learning, alignment, and growth, and taking ownership back by stepping in to do, to solve, and to own the work. To explore this, I’m joined by Richard Koch, who has spent 25+ years leading change inside large, complex global organizations—from frontline improvement to system-level transformation. We’re connected by a shared belief: sustainable transformation doesn’t come from pushing harder. It comes from creating the conditions for people to be successful. In this conversation, Richard shares what he’s learned from being inside that tension including why the way many organizations deploy improvement teams can unintentionally prevent the problem-solving ownership they’re trying to build. You’ll Learn: Why daily work and small steps are where long-term change is actually builtHow separating leadership development and continuous improvement creates confusion—and weakens ownershipWhere improvement teams unintentionally take over the work and limit capability growthWhat it looks like to support leaders in owning change without stepping in to solve itWhy the leader must be at the center of transformation—and what changes when that responsibility is heldABOUT MY GUEST: Richard H. Koch is Managing Director of Serofia and works with leaders who want to create meaningful progress for people, performance, and the future they are helping to shape. Drawing on more than 25 years of international experience across strategy, leadership, operational excellence, innovation, and transformation, he brings together coaching, training, and consulting in a way that is both human and practical. His approach is grounded in systems thinking, deep listening, and helping leaders turn strategic ambition into real progress through small steps and real work.IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/73Connect with Richard Koch: linkedin.com/in/richardkoch88Learn more about Serofia: serofia.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletterCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:44 Importance of seeing potential in every person 06:10 How seemingly insignificant actions ripple through teams08:37 Why separating leadership and improvement work breaks progress09:14 The Inner System vs. Outer System framework and how it drives change12:19 The negative effect with silos that keeps you away from  focusing on the work and the leader 15:14 Why forcing change undermines ownership 17:32 The mindset shift for change leaders and internal consultants19:07 Why daily work is the path to long-term transformation 21:22 When improvement work splits into process and leadership, change stops sticking23:19 Why direct observation and connection matter25:23 Challenge of relying on experts to help solve problems28:27 How to build sustainability instead of dependency29:05 Navigating trust, timing, and influence with senior leaders32:25 Leading with empathy and understanding the pressure leaders are under 33:52 Value of having the right outside partner to achieve goals 35:50 Seeing a leader move from sponsor to truly owning and enabling change 39:36 Importance of staying curious and creating space for ideas and growth41:00 Taking small steps to make big changes 43:00 The essence of small steps, belief in people, and leading with heart to create the conditions for change

The messy middle is part of the learning process. It’s the point where what worked before no longer fully fits—but what comes next is not yet clear.Where your thinking is still forming, your ideas are evolving, and the answer has not fully emerged. And while it can feel uncertain, this is often where the deepest continuous learning happens. In this behind-the-scenes bonus episode on Chain of Learning, I share a live conversation with, Betsy Jordyn, my business coach and strategic thinking partner, recorded on the final day of a working retreat earlier this month.  We pull back the curtains and invite you into our unscripted reflections from working through the messy middle of shaping my next book—and the leadership (and life) lessons that continue to emerge through the process. Tune in to hear the real-time learning, reflection, and refinement happening as I shape the ideas behind my next book. You’ll learn: Why the messy middle is often a necessary part of continuous learning, growth, and effective change leadershipHow to recognize when forcing clarity too early limits stronger thinking from emergingWhat it looks like to let ideas evolve instead of defending what came beforeHow collaboration and outside perspective sharpen your judgment and deepen your thinkingWhy modeling your own learning process creates stronger conditions for learning in othersHow to stay engaged in uncertainty without rushing to jumping to answers too quicklyABOUT MY GUEST: Betsy Jordyn is the founder and CEO of Betsy Jordyn International, a strategic branding firm that helps transformational consultants and coaches refine their messaging, positioning, and offers to accelerate their success and amplify their impact. She is also the host of the Consulting Matters podcast and a sought-after speaker and trainer on brand strategy, executive influence, and the business of transformation.Will you help me?I have a quick favor to ask. I’m conducting research for my next book and would love to get your insights on people-centered, learning organizations and the leadership that creates them. The survey takes just 5 to 10 minutes and your responses will directly shape the book and a future Chain of Learning podcast episode. -> Take the Survey here, open through May 22. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/72Connect with Betsy Jordyn: linkedin.com/in/betsy-jordynListen to Betsy’s Podcast, Consulting Matters: betsyjordyn.com/podcasts/consulting-matters Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Download my FREE KATALYST™ Change Leader Self-Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/katalystSubscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Take the People-Centered Leadership SurveyTIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 01:16 The hidden reality of creativity and why books are written multiple times02:39 What the messy middle feels like and why this stage matters more than we think05:04 Re-centering leadership on what’s within your control in a world of constant change06:00 Why influence isn’t about forcing change, but creating conditions for growth08:12 Reframing resistance and what people actually need to move forward10:06 How to keep evolving instead of staying stuck in old ways of thinking12:26 The process of writing a book and getting clarity on the what the book is about16:04 Why growth often requires releasing what once worked17:09 Benefits of collaborating in person vs. using AI as a thinking partner18:07 Why learning can’t be forced, but we need to allow space for insight22:07 The concept of omotenashi and looking at a lens of caring from a human angle24:14 The meaning of Intention = Heart + Direction to create the conditions for learning29:15 What changes when you respect others’ agency instead of driving direction32:19 How to have empathy and not push your agenda when leaders are not “bought in”33:01 Why your expertise can become a barrier to connection and clarity35:46 How different perspectives reveal whether your message actually lands38:08 Moving beyond the lingo to prevent barriers43:27 Why growth requires releasing identities, ideas, and ways of working