Advertise on podcast: We're Not Marketers

Nina Churchill quit her corporate PMM job effective immediately. She then wrote a series of posts on LinkedIn that reached about half a million people. She's a fellow product marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts, where she helps B2B companies stop sounding like everyone else. We get into the post, the burnout and the 11 weeks of FMLA before it, and why we put up with behavior at work that we'd call abuse at home. Then the useful stuff. Why your manager is the top reason you stay or go. The questions to ask a hiring manager before you take the job. And oh yeah, by the way? She's also coming to Death to Marketing in October. Timestamps 00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves 00:29 Meet Nina Churchill, recovering performance marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts 01:27 Nina's coming to Death to Marketing (and Saugatuck) 02:06 Gab's question: are product marketers ultimately marketers? 03:42 The LinkedIn post that made Eric want to run through a wall 04:18 A new manager, a burnout, and 11 weeks of FMLA 06:44 "Effective immediately" 07:06 Half a million people and a flood of DMs 07:46 Why do we accept at work what we'd call abuse at home? 10:32 Any backlash? "I can't like this, but I respect it" 11:09 "Your LinkedIn is your LinkedIn" 12:25 Jumping without a parachute: therapy, ADHD, and deleting the apps 15:34 Blood pressure, cortisol, and life after quitting 17:59 Boundaries: bad at them, or never practiced? 18:59 Fresh View Concepts, 2011, and some questionable age math 19:32 Running her business differently this time around 20:20 "Oh, you look stable" 21:15 Productive in two hours, not eight 23:06 The moment she decided she was the boss 23:29 The agency that always had her back 25:10 From bartending to product marketing in HR tech 26:07 How much your manager really matters 27:59 Interview the hiring manager too 30:38 The coworker who gave her name to recruiters 32:04 Why she signed up for Death to Marketing 34:50 Do we need to hide the booze? Mocktails for everybody 35:58 Death to sameness 37:31 Payroll, and why nobody trusts your AI 39:40 Where to find Nina: the Sameness Report and Whirl Additional sources 1. Fresh View Concepts, Nina's positioning consultancy https://freshviewconcepts.com 2. Whirl, Nina's AI mock interview tool (free if you were recently laid off) https://whirlinterview.com 3. Nina Churchill on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ninachurchill/ 4. Nina's writing at 3Sixty Insights https://3sixtyinsights.com/author/ninachurchill/ 5. PostHog, Nina's example of a brand that's actually different https://posthog.com 6. Death to Marketing, October 2026 https://www.death-to-marketing.com Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Your CEO just said you're hosting an event. You've never run one. Now what? Maggie Arai is the Founder of IRL Studios, where she designs in-person events for online brands. She's run more than 70 of them. She's also the person keeping Death to Marketing, our own conference, out of a ballroom with fluorescent lighting. We asked her what a product marketer needs to know before their first event lands on their desk. Where the budget quietly disappears (food and bev, every time). Why every event needs a 10 to 15% contingency line. And her take on open networking (heads up: not the answer none of us expected). She also tells us, on the record, where we already messed up planning our own event. If you've been handed an event with no budget, no team, and a note to "do something like that happy hour," start here.What and who was mentioned in today's episodeIRL Studios, Maggie's company: https://irlstudios.ca Maggie Arai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-arai/ Above the Fold: https://www.spiralyze.com/abovethefold Highline by UserEvidence: https://userevidence.com/highline/ Toronto Tech Week: https://www.torontotechweek.com/ Death to Marketing: https://www.death-to-marketing.comIn this episode 00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves 00:29 Meet Maggie Arai, Founder of IRL Studios and our event planner 01:31 Why would anyone sign up to run something this insane? 02:18 Nobody wants another ballroom with fluorescent lighting 03:26 What scared her about taking on her first B2B event 04:29 Event number 71, and still intimidated 05:44 You don't have to be a product marketer to have imposter syndrome 06:01 Are the rules different for B2B and consumer events? 09:21 Her first real exposure to a room full of product marketers 11:04 The IRL Studios thesis: getting online people into one room 13:31 Zach wants his lawyer in a suit 14:19 Be honest: where did we mess up? 14:50 The budget line nobody scoped: venue visits 16:32 Get more detailed in your budget than you think you need 17:57 Why every event budget needs a 10 to 15% contingency line 18:58 Your CEO says you're hosting an event. What catches you off guard? 19:23 Food and bev will eat your budget 21:13 Skydiving, whitewater rafting, and the insurance question 22:46 Why we killed the roast, and what replaced it 26:23 How Maggie designs events people actually want to attend 27:57 Easy to host an event, hard to host one that moves the needle 28:45 Why Death to Marketing ends with a field trip 30:23 The one event practice that has to die 31:05 Open networking has to die 33:18 The invisible hierarchy in every networking room 36:16 Drink tickets are not a designed experience 37:22 Toronto Tech Week: two DJs and nowhere to talk 38:27 Go see the room for yourself 39:20 Where to find Maggie Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same conference in fake mustaches. The costumes started as a joke about not being allowed into a marketing event by a podcast called We're Not Marketers. Three years later the bit has produced a real relationship with Dave Gerhardt, a running gag the check-in desk now expects, and enough conviction to go build their own event. Show Notes00:00 Cold open at Drive, and the first We're Not Marketers recorded in person 00:25 Why Zach is on tape as a cardboard cutout 01:02 Why three product marketers keep coming back to the same Vermont conference 01:28 The disguise started as a joke about not being let into a marketing event 02:18 How Drive turned into a family vacation 03:12 Gab's four hour drive from Quebec City with a six month old and a corgi 05:03 Why not San Francisco, and why not Vegas 06:02 Why are we dressing like a bunch of assholes 06:29 The real first reason for the costumes: hiding from Dave 07:03 The clumsy first year, and feeling like a misfit in the room 08:19 Dave Gerhardt walks up: Hey, guy with the hair 11:27 Why the costume works, and the comment from the check-in desk 12:18 Where Zach actually is, and why he still got more selfies than either host 13:33 Why product marketers specifically need to get uncomfortable 13:44 Gab on product marketers being scared to ask for budget 15:22 The survey that got over 10,000 visits, and what belongs on a resume now 16:05 Where the name Mojo came from 17:57 The difference between fear and expecting fear 19:14 Death to Marketing, six weeks before a wedding 20:14 Three guys, no private equity, one event 23:34 Zach's cutout blows over, and Brendan Hufford checks in 24:48 Community with a lowercase c 27:34 What happens when a 200 person event becomes 400 28:16 The boat tour, and what they took for Lake Michigan 29:39 LaShay Lewis, and the line that stuck 30:01 The pain of change is no longer worse than the pain of staying the same 31:16 Go shake hands, go touch grass Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue. Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it. She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode. SHOW NOTES 00:00 Cold open and host introductions 00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer 01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers? 02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her 03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing" 03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket 05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos" 05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not 07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait 08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool 09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible 10:17 What Twitter's feed of launch videos says about the format 11:14 Capsule starts with the launch video instead of ending with it 12:58 Anthropic as the model for tier-two launches 14:01 Capacity versus tooling when you are one person 15:19 Video skills, walked through with a Zendesk example 16:36 Why most AI video tools are one shot, and why this one hands you a project 18:39 What a PMM should actually go learn about video 19:52 You should not need to be an expert to make something good 20:43 Gab on developing taste 21:03 The agentic promise versus the learning curve nobody mentions 23:31 Zach on feeling like an idiot yelling into a chatbot 24:07 Smoke and mirrors, and how Natalie is launching against the hype 25:05 The pizza tier list begins 27:34 "An AI agent won't be able to do that for you" 30:03 Zach imagines Natalie as a MasterChef judge 31:03 Pizza is a canvas, and so is AI 33:17 The pizza industry secret, and the oven she and her husband built 35:07 Chicago, New York, or New Haven 35:53 Where to find Natalie SOURCES Capsule, the video platform Natalie runs marketing for: https://capsule.video Modern Pizza Products, the oven she co-founded: https://www.modernpizzaproducts.com Emily Kramer's fuel and engine framework: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/p/fuel-engine Natalie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecstaylor/ Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the friend who texted to say he wasn't coming. What it does to you when the success of your business becomes the measure of you as a person, why selling tickets turned out to be harder than selling sponsors, and the lesson none of them expected to learn about asking for help. Death to Marketing is October 11 in Holland, Michigan. *Recorded August 10, 2026. Show Notes (00:00) Why the branding scared people off — on purpose(00:39) "It's not an event for everybody"(01:46) Neither of them had ever run an event(02:58) The $200 offer that started all of this(03:23) From a $200 reimbursement to $90,000 in sponsors(04:30) The math that made no sense(05:04) The two events that set the bar(06:46) Are conferences a crutch for the PMM community?(10:28) Enough about PMA(11:02) The real number, said out loud(11:05) "48 people we have to pay to have a good time"(12:24) Someone bought a ticket from Scotland(12:55) What turned out to be easier than expected(13:11) The moment it stopped being a bit and became a real event(14:12) "This is the rollercoaster we're going to be taking"(15:22) Hiring a partner who pushes back on you(16:37) What Eric took on personally(20:05) Why planning it made it easier to say no to sponsors(20:36) Running an event like a product launch(22:05) How this compares to every sales kickoff they've sat through(23:05) The one thing no other event is doing(25:21) The hard stuff starts here(25:49) When your business becomes your identity(26:54) The text from a friend who wasn't coming(27:37) "An event run by these three losers"(29:00) "I want this to be the only event we ever throw"(29:59) Turtle pace: the grind of selling tickets(30:55) The discipline of narrowing the audience mid-sale(34:38) The delegation problem(36:09) "One of the heaviest things you'll ever do"(37:59) Keep, stop, do over(38:47) Keep: the partner(41:42) Do over: the waitlist(43:36) Do over: invite-only?(43:58) The coin flip nobody can call(45:23) If they do it again, it might be a stage play(48:31) The ask, without the false urgency Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why workflow isn't a buzzword when you've actually lived it, how his team runs a private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users, and why being your own ICP is both a superpower and a trap. If you've ever felt like a fraud talking about users you've never met, this one's for you. More from this episode Why "customer" gives Jason the ick (and what word he uses instead) The PMM job is 50% talking to users — not Slack, not slides, not strategy decks How Adobe's PMM team gets buy-in before a feature exists, not after The Tarantino move: why Jason starts every story at the end Being your own ICP is a cheat code… until it makes you look like a fanboy at annual planning The exact reason Frame.io's Camera to Cloud killed an industry workflow that hadn't changed since 1920 Why every PMM should buy a pillow with their product's logo on it (yes, really) The unsexy truth about "creative freedom" — you have to earn it with data first How Jason found his PMM job: he wasn't looking, his mentor was watching his LinkedIn posts Why "make it pretty" and "make it beautiful" are two completely different briefs Time Stamps 00:00 Cold open — the misfit intros 00:45 Why this episode is different: a PMM pulled IN to PMM, not chasing it 01:30 Jason Druss intro — from colorist to Adobe PMM 02:15 THE QUESTION: Are product marketers marketers? 03:30 "We're storytellers before we're marketers" 04:30 Should the product or the user be the main character? 05:30 The trap of feature-led storytelling vs. workflow thinking 07:00 What "workflow" actually means (and why it's not jargon) 09:00 The Frame.io / Camera to Cloud story 12:30 How Frame.io rewrote a 100-year-old industry workflow 14:00 Jason's spicy take: PMMs must eat, live, breathe the product 16:00 How user needs have shifted dramatically in 5–10 years 18:00 The Premier Pro pillow story (and why every PMM should have one) 19:00 Where most companies fail at user research 20:30 The private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users 21:30 Weekly webinars, betas, and the questions you're NOT asking users 24:00 Scrappy is a state of mind, not a company size 25:00 Jason's career timeline: Blackmagic → NFL Films → Warner Bros → Frame.io → Adobe 28:00 The crisis of faith — leaving "colorist" behind 30:00 Why Jason's passion is impossible to fake 31:30 The dark side of being your own ICP 33:00 Mixing intuition with data — the PMM credibility unlock 35:00 Advice for aspiring PMMs: become a subject matter expert first 38:00 The creativity rant — your differentiator vs. AI 41:30 ROI, business metrics, and earning the seat at the table 44:00 The "beautiful circle" of product marketing (and who's outside it) 46:00 Where to find Jason + Adobe Max teaser 48:00 Outro Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive copy fights forever. If you've ever been asked to "elevate enterprise synergies," this one's for you.More from this episode The two words that should disqualify any marketer from giving copy feedback (hint: rhymes with "synergy") Why having a frying pan doesn't make you a chef — and writing copy doesn't make you a copywriter The "shout pineapple" school of copywriting Why B2B brands are scared of being unfollowed — and why that's why nobody clicks The dinner party test that kills 90% of corporate jargon on contact The difference between "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" (and why one of these kills your career in 18 months) Gila's reverse-engineering trick for ending founder vs. marketer copy fights forever Why making your boss happy and making your customer click are two completely different jobs The brutally honest reason most messaging processes are broken — and the only fix that actually works Gila pitches Riverside vs. SquadCast live on the show (and we may or may not be switching now) Show Notes Timespan: 00:00 Cold Open & Host Introductions (Eric, Zach, Gab) 01:00 Introducing Gila Shapiro — Copywriter, PMM, Creative Strategist at Riverside 02:50 The Recurring Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:00 The "Elevate Your Enterprise Synergies" Test 05:30 Writing Copy vs. Being a Copywriter — The Frying Pan Analogy 07:00 Gila's Process: Say the Terrible Thing Out Loud 07:35 The Dinner Party Test 09:00 Why Most People Default to Corporate Jargon 12:30 Be Interested to Be Interesting — The Customer Interview Trick 15:30 Ownership at Riverside & Wearing Multiple Hats 17:30 The Broken Brief-to-Copy Handoff Process 19:30 What to Do When Good Copy Doesn't Convert 21:30 Personal Brands vs. B2B Brands: Why B2B Is Afraid 23:30 AI for Job Security — Copy Think vs. Copy Paste 27:00 The "Copy Think vs. Copy Paste" Framework 30:00 Internal Fights with Executives Over Copy 31:25 The Founder POV Reverse-Engineering Trick 33:30 Burnout, Garden Gnomes, and Chasing the Fun Parts 36:30 Live Pitch: Why Switch from SquadCast to Riverside? 40:30 Cheers and Farewell Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Louis Grenier has run a podcast called Everyone Hates Marketers for 8 years. He's not here to be nice about it. In this episode, Lou breaks down why product marketing only exists because B2B tech forgot what customers actually want — and why your positioning project is probably being run by the wrong person. We cover customer research frameworks, the CEO buy-in problem no one talks about, and the Irish convenience store that is a crime against positioning. Hit play before your next messaging doc meeting. You'll thank us. More from this episode Product marketing only exists because B2B tech companies got so far from their customers they had to invent a role to translate what the product actually does. Why the most powerful thing a consultant can offer is not being inside the company. Lou's actual Hotjar failure — why the CMO wasn't enough to make repositioning work. The six things you need to know from customers before you can touch a positioning doc. Why calling something a "marketing initiative" is the fastest way to kill CEO buy-in. "Sniff the same glue" — Lou's surprisingly accurate description of organizational alignment. The 3-meter Irish storefront that is simultaneously a convenience store, Indian takeaway, off-license, and Red Bull dealer. One shop. Three meters. Zero positioning. Why community is just a word companies use when they want a place to sell at people without being obvious about it. Lou's hot take on co-founders: "Good luck to whoever wants to take that role with me." The one customer research mistake that guarantees useless data: talking to the wrong people at the wrong time. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are product marketers actually marketers, or are they just glorified slide deck designers waiting for sales to bark orders? David Lim—a PMM who's survived Google, HP, and multiple startups—joins the skeleton crew to drop some uncomfortable truths. We talk about earning respect when founders don't have a clue what you do, why knowing your customer's quarterly priorities is a superpower, and what happens when you fight a C-suite exec on product strategy (spoiler: sometimes you get fired). If you've ever been asked to "make that deck pretty," this one's for you.More From This Episode The brutal truth: What happens when you don't earn internal respect as a PMM Why sales teams don't talk to product teams (and how PMMs become the bridge) The one customer question David asks that unlocks everything: "What are your quarterly priorities?" David got fired for fighting a founder on product strategy—here's what he learned Why most founders have zero idea what PMMs actually do (and think you're just a lead gen machine) The "gut feeling" trap: When executives ignore your research and launch anyway How to stop rolling your eyes when leadership makes dumb decisions (David admits he's not good at this) Why working under the product org might actually be better for PMMs The ultimate PMM flex: Knowing your customer better than anyone in the company Are PMMs actually marketers, or just the people who make sales decks look pretty? Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Season 5 Kickoff 00:59 Introducing Guest: David Lim (PMM at BVO) 02:36 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 How PMMs Earn Respect (Or Get Stuck in the Black Hole) 07:00 What Sets PMMs Apart: Cross-Functional Collaboration 09:45 The Research That Changed Everything (Working Under Product Org) 13:00 Advocating for PMM: Educating Teams on What You Actually Do 16:00 The Metrics Problem: What Should PMMs Own? 20:00 Working with Customer Success Teams (QBRs and Product Feedback) 23:00 When You Know the Customer Better Than Anyone Else 26:00 Understanding Quarterly Priorities (The Detail Most PMMs Miss) 29:00 Customer Advisory Boards and Sales Advisory Boards 33:00 The Struggle: When Executives Ignore Your Research 35:00 David's Story: Getting Fired for Fighting Product Strategy 38:00 Gab's Story: When a Writer Called the Product "Shit" 40:00 Rolling with the Punches (And Why It's Hard) 42:00 In-House vs. Agency PMM: The Respect Difference 45:00 Post-Launch Research: The Key to Proving You Were Right 47:00 The Founder Talk: Setting Clear Expectations 49:00 Understanding the Customer's Buying Process 50:00 Wrap-Up and Where to Find David Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea that maybe your website should actually reject leads (yes, really). Buckle up for hot takes on keyword worship, the death of MQLs, and why your Rolex store strategy is all wrong.Featuring from BX Studio...Jacob Sussman, CEO Nikiya Griffith, Director of Organic Growth Grace Arrese, Partnerships AssociateMore from this episode Why adding SEO keywords is like putting ketchup on a wagyu steak The real reason your website converts trash leads (hint: it's not the copy) What Rolex stores know about lead qualification that B2B marketers don't The "Irish Exit" messaging framework that'll change how you write forever Why tracking MQLs is like measuring your height to lose weight The CEO wrecking ball effect (and why it destroys every website eventually) How QuickBooks became a cautionary tale for AI-obsessed marketers The Writer's Wiki secret that could save product marketing 20 hours a week Why your anti-ICP strategy matters more than your ICP The shocking truth about who actually owns your website (spoiler: it's not who you think) Time Stamps 00:00 Opening & Attendee Check-in 01:00 Real Humans vs AI Note-takers Discussion 02:00 Setting the Stage: PMMs vs Non-PMMs 03:00 The Main Question: Who Should Own the Website? 03:45 Eric's Hot Take: Product Marketing Should Own It 04:45 Nikia's Counter: Joint Ownership is Key 05:45 Website Ownership and Blame Discussion 07:00 Real-World Website Conversion Problems 08:30 The Writer's Wiki Solution 11:00 Dream Relationships Between PMM and SEO 13:00 Keyword Lists vs Message-First Approach 16:00 Website Design and FAQ Strategy 18:00 The CRO/CEO Acronym Confusion 20:00 QuickBooks AI Positioning Disaster 22:00 Who Has Final Say on Messaging? 26:30 The CEO Wrecking Ball Problem 29:00 The Irish Exit Messaging Analogy 31:00 Metrics That Matter: SQLs vs MQLs 33:00 The Rolex Store Anti-ICP Strategy 35:00 Enterprise Positioning and Deterrence 38:00 Nikia's Counter: Why More Metrics Matter 41:00 The Internal Echo Chamber Problem 45:00 GEO vs SEO: The New Frontier 48:00 Closing Thoughts and Farewell Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Crystal Crouch turned driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile into a product marketing empire - and she's not keeping the secrets. The woman who put Zach on the consulting path drops truth bombs about why 90% of company data is garbage, why product management is harder than PMM (fight us), and how being hyper-organized means her 9-year-old has never eaten a frozen chicken nugget. If you've ever wondered whether to charge hourly or by project, or why your messaging doc is just an expensive PDF no one reads, this episode will either inspire you to level up or quit entirely. Either way, you win.More from this episode... Product marketers are demand translators, not demand creators (and why that matters) The Oscar Mayer Wienermobile taught Crystal crisis management at 19 Why product management is 10x harder than PMM (Crystal said it, not us) 90% of company data is dirty - and that's being generous The one question that determines if you should take a consulting client Why Crystal's kids live by the Pomodoro method (and only have one TV) How to use silence to negotiate like a pro (hint: treat yourself like a product) The real reason your messaging docs are expensive paperweights Why you should NEVER offer free consulting work (but acts of service are different) Crystal's secret: "Happiness is a choice" - even when clients are a nightmare Show Notes00:59 Introducing Crystal Crouch: The PMM Who Changed Zach's Life 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? The Demand Translation Theory 05:00 Why Product Management is 10x Harder Than PMM 08:00 The Real Definition of GTM (Spoiler: You're Probably Wrong) 12:00 Crystal's Journey to Consulting: From Church to Clients 15:30 Three Lessons for Consultant Success 17:00 The Truth About Free Work and Acts of Service 19:00 How Crystal Balances It All: Pomodoro Method & One TV 23:00 Living by the Calendar: The Secret to Work-Life Balance 26:00 Negotiation Masterclass: Treat Yourself Like Product Pricing 29:00 Why 90% of Company Data is Garbage 31:00 The ROI Question: How to Handle It Like a Pro 33:00 Automatic Client Red Flags 36:00 Fixing Broken Data Without Doing It Yourself 40:00 Building Confidence: Stop Competing With Others 44:00 The Power of Kindness in Business 47:00 Why Every PMM Needs Sales Training 48:50 Happiness is a Choice: Crystal's Final Wisdom Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth. More from this convo... From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll" How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoice The strategic visibility system that changes everything Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming How to extract value from companies that don't value you Timestamps 00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing 02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy 03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders 04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act 05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days 06:00 Corporate America Reality Check 07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying 08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers 09:00 The Crying on Calls Era 11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist 13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon 15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed 17:00 The Strategic Visibility System 19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins 21:00 Worst Career Advice 23:00 Budget Allocation Debates 25:00 Personal Branding Strategy 27:00 AI Impact on PMM 29:00 The Newsletter Game 31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks 33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More 35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You 37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time 39:00 The April Dunford Model 41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps 43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy 45:00 Deep Coaching Approach 47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough 49:00 The Workout Analogy 50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs 51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology 52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge 53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattie Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you.More from this convo... Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) • The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn • How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant • Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem • The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing • How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance • The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise • The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) • Why more ads won't fix your broken positioning Timestamps 00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest 01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder 02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition 03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills 04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers 04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives 05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling 06:00 The Minneapolis Connection 07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros" 09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing 11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide 13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM 15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders 17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding 19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins 21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories 23:00 Budget Allocation Debates 25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion 27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs 29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance 31:00 SEO in the AI Age 33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS 35:00 Founding Prelude Agency 37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus 39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM 41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It 43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue) 45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue 47:00 Small Wins Strategy 49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix 50:00 Channels vs. Foundations 51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally 52:00 Closing & Where to Find Garrett Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar? Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on what's winning, how can we, PMMs? That's why Drew bobbed and weaved his own consultancy focused on win-loss analysis. In this momma knock-you-out (respectfully) episode, we uncover why win-loss is more than 'tracking win rates and ignoring loss complaints'. If you ever had your back against revenue dashboard, you already know why full win-loss analysis drives more conversions than low-signal white paper leads. More on what we cover...• Why PMMs without win-loss analysis are just "sales deck monkeys"  • The shocking truth: Your entire company is already in marketing (they just don't know it)  • How a layoff and two weeks notice led to a thriving agency  • Why generalized PMM consulting is dead (and what to do instead)  • The brutal first 6 months: Zero clients except former bosses  • Win-loss as the "canary in the coal mine" for positioning problems  • Why being a founder means being a salesperson first, PMM second  • The annual planning cycle hack that finally brought clients  • How to replace yourself as the most expensive consultant  • The "choose your hard" philosophy of PMM entrepreneurship  • Why nothing matters until someone pays you (repeatedly) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention. Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.What to gather in this convo: • How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel)  • Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges"  • The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley  • What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership  • Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader  • The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers  • How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging  • Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there)  • The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams  • What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see  • The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everything Timestamps 00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey 01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years 02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory 04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM 05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads 06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy 07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy 09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling 11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path 13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM 15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun" 17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building 19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness 21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets 23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins 24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received 26:00 Budget Allocation Debates 28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem 30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion 32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends 34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline 37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise 39:00Disagree and Commit Principle Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.