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Wrapping up Saul Bellow's Herzog, where the going gets tough and the tough take baths. First up, the failed murder. Herzog gets his dad's old revolver, works himself into a state of total conviction that killing his ex-wife Madeleine and her lover is not just justified but righteous, and then loses his nerve at the last moment while watching the guy give his daughter a bath. A brothers K rerun? Up next, potato love: Herzog's own dismissive term for humble, unglamorous sentimentality. The stuff he's spent the whole book mocking while secretly craving it. And Rich's new favorite concept handle.  Finally, the Nietzsche breakup. A final burst of letters, an uncalled for closing shot at semen reabsorption as the fuel of creativity, and the implication that Herzog doesn't resolve his arguments so much as simply stop needing to win them. Plus the book's real-life backstory.  Chapters (00:00:00) intro, and loving Herzog more the second time around (00:01:44) the custody plot: Herzog gets his dad's gun (00:08:55) the Brothers Karamazov parallel: two men who couldn't pull the trigger (00:15:10) potato love: Herzog's word for humble, unglamorous love (00:22:46) the child-killing trial, and humanity's urge to bite and pity its food (00:30:35) Madeleine takes June, and an unreliable narrator's sob story (00:37:18) the final letters: making a clean break with Nietzsche (00:40:54) Ramona, and giving up the 'great man' act for good (00:47:15) Saul Bellow's real-life betrayal, and why he wrote a book instead of more letters   Get in touch! Email us at [email protected]

"If I'm out of my mind, that's okay with me."  Part 1 of our dive into Moses Herzog's breakdown. Like all the best books, Herzog follows a manic academic, freshly dumped by his second wife for his own one-legged best friend, who processes the whole disaster by firing off unsent letters to everyone from his mother to Eisenhower to Spinoza. We get a peak into the 1964 version of the suffering olympics, which Rich obviously tries to tie back to New Zealand MPs and Nietzschean slave morality.  Plus: how Christianity's meaning-making project curdled into Romanticism, then Hegelian historicism, then modern secular doomerism.  Full transcripts are available at doyouevenlit.com, where you can filter and search episodes by key ideas, authors, and themes. Timestamps (00:00:00) how would a wizard signal being gay? (00:04:11) announcing Herzog: Bellow's "bitch wife" genre and Jewish New York neuroticism (00:09:30) sampling Herzog's letters and the appeal of saying what you really think (00:14:22) the kaleidoscopic, disorienting structure of the opening chapters (00:18:09) is Herzog a reliable narrator of his own infidelities? (00:23:50) is Madeline really the schemer Herzog paints her as? (00:27:38) the suffering Olympics: how Gersbach out-victims the man he betrayed (00:36:56) Herzog's genius delusion, from Kanye West to Nietzsche (00:48:05) tracing modern doomerism back to Christianity, via Romanticism and Hegel (00:54:49) Bellow's own Marxist phase, and historicism's swing from hope to doom (01:00:06) misunderstood genius or deluded narcissist? plus predictions for part 2 (01:04:47) outro: Rich's new site and building an AI oracle from your back catalog Write us We love listener feedback! Send it to [email protected]

"The growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts." — Middlemarch The DYEL boys finally finished George Eliot's Middlemarch and finally answered the question of what this thing is about. At least we think we did: A 900-page long cope on being mid.  Updated Website: We unveil the new Do You Even Lit website: doyouevenlit.com. It now has searchable tags by theme, book, and thinker and a breakdown of our most biggest obsessions: Christianity, David Foster Wallace, signalling, death, David Foster Wallace, and the sexual revolution. Thwarted ambitions: Nobody seems to achieve what they set out to: Dorothea, Lydgate, Casaubon, even Bulstrode. We ask whether Eliot is simply describing reality or arguing against ambition. Ordinary goodness: Related to the above, we unpack the famous final paragraph. Rich wonders if it's all just cope. And points out how it seems at odds with the real life of George Eliot, aka "Mary K", aka Mary-Ann Evans. Full transcripts are available at doyouevenlit.com, where you can filter and search episodes by key ideas, authors, and themes. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) shiny new website (00:14:04) Bulstrode scandal and Lydgate's innocence (00:24:42) Lydgate, a failure? (00:28:06) Emphasise on Middle (00:32:11) Is this book anti-ambition? (00:40:42) close reading of the final paragraph (00:59:52) Rosamond's (slight) redemption (01:14:03) Next book   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question. NEXT UP: Herzog by Saul Bellow

Rich reflects on his truly deranged reaction to the film, after entering a manic state and staying up all night penning a 2500 word rant. Meanwhile Cam had a nice time at the cinema and gives it a soft seven. Benny liked it too, until he thought about it, and is now hopelessly hung up on whether you can fairly judge an adaptation of something you know so well. Just after we recorded, Emily Wilson came out swinging with a review in the London Review of Books, in which she shares many of our disappointments: Nolan’s Odyssey lacks many of the elements that make the poem great. It has nothing convincing to say about time, memory, history, war, or about the relationship between one warrior’s glorious return and the lives of his family, adversaries, comrades, friends and neighbours. It lacks psychological, emotional, political and ethical depth. Its narrative structure is gimmicky. The writing is abysmal. None of the characters has convincing motivation for their actions or words. Oof. anyway, 7/10 Full transcripts are available at doyouevenlit.com, where you can filter and search episodes by key ideas, authors, etc. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) a normal and proportionate reaction (00:07:25) Homer's Odysseus vs the Matt Damon character (00:22:59) nostalgia for Nolan blowing our teenage minds (00:29:30) Making Zeus's law central to the entire plot (00:39:46) do we like the treatment of the Gods (00:45:52) woke casting discourse and post-Christian morality (00:59:52) Half-hearted slaughter of the suitors (01:05:53) final ratings + has book club ruined our ability to enjoy things WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question. NEXT UP: Middlemarch finale Herzog — Saul Bellow

O, beware, my lord, of jealousy; It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock The meat it feeds on. Tackling Shakespeare's 1604 play Othello. It goes a lot better than last time, altho Rich gets a bit of a fright when the lead actor comes out in blackface. Othello the outsider: Was interracial marriage an uncrossable divide for a man of Othello's station? What do we think of race-swapped casting? What exactly is a Moor anyway? A special investigation. Iago as master manipulator: Why does he keep escalating his schemes? How did the most conniving man in Venice get the nickname 'honest Iago'? Is he too OP to be believable? We try to make sense of whether he's motivated by ambition, sexual jealousy, or is purely in it for the love of the game. Sexual jealousy as a uniquely destabilising force: How does a general who can stare down an armed mob go to pieces over his wife's handkerchief? Benny runs through Othello's many epistemological mistakes. Cam gives us the evo psych line on why men have a deep-seated fear of being cucked. Some embarrassing personal confessions emerge. Full transcripts are available at doyouevenlit.com, where you can filter and search episodes by key ideas, authors, etc. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) when an old black ram is tupping your white ewe (00:06:50) race-swapped casting and a brief history of blackface  (00:16:26) So You've Been Passed Over For Promotion (00:23:46) What does Iago actually want? (00:30:04) the crusty handkerchief and 'eavesdropping conversation' gambit (00:38:11) Confirmation bias and bad epistemology (00:44:22) Let the bodies hit the floor (00:49:21) Sexual jealousy as a uniquely destabilising force (00:59:11) original vs modern translations discourse   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question. NEXT UP: Middlemarch finale (hopefully some time before christmas, if Cam ever pulls his finger out of his ass) Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey

"In such a crisis as this, some women begin to hate." Let's go baby, things are getting steamy.  Rich isn't sure if he's turned on or terrified by Dorothea, Cam can't figure out whether he'd take blood money, and Ben is torn about whether marrying a psychopath is worth it if she's a hottie.  The middle section of this 800-page whopper is a tournament of injured pride. Casaubon exits early, Will (stupidly?) can't take or give a hint, Rosamund becomes Lydgate's worst nightmare, and Fred ... somehow fumbles his way back into credibility??  Question of the ep: Is Mary Garth a stand in for George Eliot who, as it happens, was described by Henry James as "magnificently ugly, deliciously hideous."  Listener mail: a non-native English speaker writes in to say Cam's sentences are hard to follow. Cam accepts the feedback with unusual grace. Full transcript for this episode (and every episode) is available at doyouevenlit.com, where you can filter and search by key ideas, authors, etc. (00:00:00) fiction as thought experiment (or: anti-thought experiment?) (00:07:44) Dorothea's arc: the crisis of rejection (00:18:00) Will Ladislaw in the vicinity (00:26:23) Bulstrode's pawnbroker past revealed (00:30:51) would you take the blood money? (00:37:40) Featherstone's will surprise — enter Rigg (00:44:45) Fred finds his feet with Caleb Garth (00:47:56) Farebrother's impossible magnanimity (00:51:36) is Mary Garth a George Eliot stand-in? (00:55:03) Lydgate and Rosamund: the marriage goes off a cliff (00:59:40) the sexual politics of Lydgate's mistake (01:06:05) listener mail: Cam gets roasted Write Us We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question. Next up  - Finish Middlemarch  - ???

For our big summer read we're cracking into Middlemarch, the 1871 doorstopper written by Mary Ann Evans under her pen name George Eliot. This chat covers the first 30 chapters. Not a whole lot has happened so far but it's a very cosy read. On Eliot and Tolstoy: which way does the influence go? How does this compare with our beloved Anna Karenina? Worst honeymoon ever: did we buy Dorothea and Casaubon as a couple? how were age-gap relationships treated in ye olden days? Did they even bone? And if girls like Dorothea exist in real life, where might we find them today? Lydgate and Rosamond: who he will vote for as chaplain at the new hospital? Tyke or Farebrother? The stakes are higher than they might first appear. Fred and the Garths: a charming failson coasting on a rich uncle's dangled inheritance. We debate whether every heir ought to be lightly humiliated before they're allowed to inherit. Plus, from the listener mailbag: have the boys ever read a book by a black person? Full transcript for this episode (and every episode) is available at doyouevenlit.com, where you can filter and search by key ideas, authors, etc. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) the guardian's #1 novel, aka English Anna Karenina (00:10:40) Dorothea as wish-fulfilment fantasy for sperges (00:20:08) Elliot's language: the civilised art of the subtextual dagger (00:29:50) worst honeymoon ever (00:34:06) Casaubon is a little too much like us (00:41:48) Lydgate the ambitious outsider (00:58:39) TYKE VS FAREBROTHER!!!! hold onto your seats (00:58:39) Fred the affable failson (01:16:29) Listener mail: on the merits of assigning authors by race WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question. NEXT ON THE READING LIST: - The rest of Middlemarch ???

Raymond Carver's Cathedral might be one of the most simple and beloved American short stories, but Benny is determined to overthink it anyway. On meta-deception: before we dive in, Benny obsesses over “meta-deception” and feels betrayed by magicians. On jealousy: is it OK for your wife to write intimate poetry about another man tenderly stroking her face? Also, what does it take to be a good host? Moment of transcendence: what is the narrator transformed by drawing the cathedral, or is this just an over-interpreted moment in American fiction? We talk about sincerity, empathy, and seeing other people. Full transcript for this episode at doyouevenlit.com enriched with links, ideas, authors, etc. CHAPTERS: (00:00:07) benny mad at magicians using magic (00:04:55) carver’s plain writing (00:07:19) poetry not the first thing we pick up (00:07:48) tribulations of being a good host (00:12:46) getting reality from tv (00:17:12) boundaries on friend zones (00:20:41) dining in the dark (00:26:42) winding down for the night (00:28:24) describing cathedrals (00:35:23) on gaining empathy (00:38:02) what we get from cathedrals (00:41:17) on still being a good host (00:44:54) benny still not getting it (00:49:20) next book announcement WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at Some say it's good.)

Ursula K. Le Guin's 1973 story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas has been discussed to death, but the boys have finally cracked the ONE TRUE reading. huddle in Rich remembered this being a glorified trolley problem that would allow us to settle the question of 'who is the most utilitarian-brained of us all' but it's not! It's about politics, and capitalism, and bold utopian leaps! On the real-world parallels: does western prosperity actually depend on the suffering of the global south? Is there a difference between culpability and moral luck? Is there such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism? Fighting the hypothetical: Benny has largely solved moral philosophy and finds the story less compelling the second time around. Also, Omelas is not very revealing as a thought experiment. We talk about how thought experiments fail, and compare with Nozick's experience machine. On those who walk away: morally serious dissenters, or virtue-signalling posers? Is Le Guin really so against incrementalism that she has set up the experiment so it's impossible? We manage to find an optimistic reading lurking in there too. Plus: Why can't kids these days read good? We debate whether it's a moral panic, if the use of LLMs helps or hinders, and how f*****g stupid you'd have to be to try and start a literature podcast in a post-literate society. Full transcript available at doyouevenlit.com — you can sort all episodes by ideas, authors, and more. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) this is a running podcast now (00:05:50) Impressions vs the first time we read the story (00:09:30) synopsis: a utopian city with a dirty little secret (00:17:50) FIGHTING THE HYPOTHETICAL (00:25:00) The case against thought experiments: If magic was real, would you grant that magic was real? (00:28:00) Is walking away a moral act or empty posturing (00:30:42) Le Guin's true motive: socio-political critique or glorified trolley problem (00:35:00) is Omelas actually an anarchist utopia? (00:43:01) is there such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism (00:52:28) moral luck vs. culpability (EA is good akshully) (01:02:00) The stickiness of the Omelas story (01:05:00) Eric T's listener mail: can kids still read good? (01:18:00) on the stupidity of starting a lit podcast in a post-literate age   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: Cathedral — Raymond Carver Middlemarch — George Eliot

Wrapping up our discussion of Philip Roth's American Pastoral, in which the Swede is finally reunited with his missing daughter. it's bleak. On losing your daughter: Can you save people from themselves? Should the Swede have dragged Merry out by the hair? Did he do anything wrong, or is he torturing himself for nothing? The American berserk: Was '60s counterculture violence a freak aberration, or just a manifestation of the undercurrent that lies beneath the pastoral dream? Is Roth an old man shaking his fist at clouds? Or is he making a clever point about the obliviousness of those who live behind white picket fences? Plus: Roth vs Dostoevsky, in praise of blue-haired activist types, and the problem of assimilation. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) Roth vs Dostoevsky (00:10:00) Merry's motivations and lack of interiority (00:16:52) Coercing loved ones to save them from themselves (00:23:53) Champagne socialists are good akshully (00:26:20) Violence in america always has been meme (00:40:25) Roth's pessimism about assimilation (00:45:20) Roth's pessimism about knowing your fellow man (00:55:10) next book(s) announcement   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas - Ursula K. Le Guin Cathedral — Raymond Carver

The Swede was the poster boy for the American dream. Football star. Marine. Marries a beauty queen. Inherits dad's glove factory and treats the workers like family. Buys the stone farmhouse in Old Rimrock, New Jersey. Loves his daughter unconditionally. Protests the Vietnam War in his own measured way, just to show her he's on her side. Then his precious little girl blows up the local post office and kills a man. "This says a lot about Society."—Philip Roth In this episode, covering the first five chapters of Roth's Pullitzer prize-winning novel, we find ourselves a book club divided. Rich hated the opening frame story. Nathan's over-interpretation of the Swede's every fart is written that way on purpose but that doesn't make it any less of a suffocating 80 pages to wade through. File under 'writers wanking themselves off about writing'. meanwhile Ben is deeply moved. He defends the frame story and mounts a convincing case that it's doing real work on memory, regret, and mortality. Cam is kind of on the fence but overall he likes the book. "I like the book."—Cam Opinions will no doubt change as we move into the second half but there's one thing we can say for sure: Basketball was never like this, Skip. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) hot takes: mid-wit or masterpiece? (00:03:35) synopsis and the Zuckerman frame story (00:07:48) the Swede as WASP-adjacent golden boy (00:13:59) is the American Dream ever not a fantasy (00:17:21) Merry gets radicalised: a parent's worst nightmare (00:25:2) Rich rant on Zuckerman/Roth's cloying line-by-line exegesis (00:31:50) Benny's defence of the frame story (00:36:18) would you go to your 50-year high school reunion? (00:44:37) Woolf did it better tho   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas - Ursula K. Le Guin

Robert Louis Stevenson's 1886 novella The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde really gets the juices flowing. Rich tells on himself big time, we find out we're all faking our authentic selves, and Benny is forced to bite some weird philosophical bullets. The Ring of Gyges: Are all men secretly depraved? How much bad stuff would you actually do if you had total anonymity? Rich says a lot; Benny is suspiciously optimistic. A typology of evil: Teasing out the banality of evil vs sociopathic indifference vs pure sadism. Where does Hyde fit? How does someone develop a taste for cruelty? On the opponent process model, why serial killers escalate, and our porn viewing habits. Virtue ethics vs utilitarian brain: Rich is losing faith in galaxy-brained consequentialist reasoning. Can you corrupt yourself by consuming bad things even if no one is harmed? On the Westworld problem, violent video games, and other gnarly thought experiments. Incongruous f*ggots: do we feel like a unified self or a coalition of competing entities? Why does Cam hide his books when his uncle comes to visit? On code-switching and the different masks we wear. CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) Listener mail: Nicole and Stefan (00:06:48) synopsis and the big twist (00:16:25) The perfect crime (00:21:53) Hyde's sordid pleasures (00:24:16) the Ring of Gyges: are people good when no one's watching? (00:29:43) A typology of evil (00:38:49) Developing a taste for sin (00:51:14) utilitarian brain vs virtue ethics (01:05:34) Is there anything beneath the mask   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: American Pastoral — Philip Roth

IMMORTAL ASEXUAL CLONES: YES NO? Did aella's birthday g******g generate positive externalities? Why is Cam's fridge full of dead chickens? These are the big questions of our age and we are the only ones brave enough to tackle them. Join us as we wrap up our discussion of Houellebecq's Atomised (also known as The Elementary Particles). The sexual marketplace has no safety net: Houellebecq says individualism devours the rational structures meant to protect us. Rich argues we've already mostly solved this problem in the economic realm. Sex is harder tho. Are there any positive-sum status games to play here?Why do we tolerate redistributive policy for wealth but not for sex? Is Freddie deBoer a hypocrite for clowning on incels?  Bruno visits the Lieu de Changement: A sex commune with much kindly compassion for the outcasts masturbating on the fringes. Could this scale beyond extremely rule-following Germans? Is enforced monogamy the real solution, or has that ship long since sailed? Houellebecq's rhetorical sleight of hand: is paternal love purely instrumental? Do hippies really have a direct lineage to sadists and serial killers? Is the hedonic treadmill of transgression a real thing? probably not but we love our cheeky boy. One trillion identical Cams: Michel's solution is to eliminate sexual reproduction, individuality, and desire entirely. Would this even work? Is H being serious or just proving the problem is insoluble? What happens to science and progress in a world with no genetic or ideological diversity? CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) penis size chat (00:05:41) Brave New World and other failed utopias (00:15:30) The intractable problem of inceldom (00:25:58) Sexual social democracy and compassion for the lone masturbator (00:37:22) Houellebecq's rhetorical sleight of hand (00:41:30) the hedonic treadmill of transgression: hippies to serial killers (00:47:25) positive externalities of aella's birthday g******g and other status games (00:54:01) Rich rants about positivism and quantum physics woo (01:00:22) the third metaphysical mutation: asexual immortal clones (01:11:12) Next book announcement   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde — Robert Louis Stevenson American Pastoral — Philip Roth

Houellebecq's 1998 novel Atomised (also known as The Elementary Particles) is prophetic, provocative and absolutely filthy. This chat covers the first ~200 pages: On the sexual revolution: Are inceldom and looksmaxxing the inevitable consequences of the intrusion of market forces into every facet of human society? If Clavicular did not exist, would it be necessary to invent him? Fertility crisis: Can we rely on new technologies to save us from population crash? Rich argues that this time might really be different; Benny is more optimistic. Do any of us really want to RETVRN to forced monogamy? Is liberalism at risk of extincting itself? Which cultures will win the memetic battle? ...and more   CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) Metaphysical mutations and historical determinism (00:08:00) Bruno the proto-incel and Michel the proto-asexual (00:15:30) Mother nature is Bad, Actually (00:21:50) Clavicular and the sexual marketplace (00:32:36) Enforced monogamy and slut shaming (00:42:30) The fertility crisis and population crash   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: Atomised — Michel Houellebecq (part 2)

This week's between-novel quick read is Stefan Zweig's The Royal Game: A Chess Story, written in 1941, immediately before Zweig obliterated his map. We argue over the perfect answer to the 'desert island book' question, whether it's possible to fracture your own mind into pieces, why Cam sucks at chess, and whether we should pressure our kids to become pro athletes/chess prodigies/concert pianists.   CHAPTERS: (00:00:00) plot summary (00:05:43) What’s the perfect desert island book? (00:17:00) Tulpas and fractured psyches (00:26:10) Our own chess performance (00:34:56) On monomania and pressuring kids into sports/music/chess   WRITE US: We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.   NEXT ON THE READING LIST: Atomised — Michel Houellebecq