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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism. You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan. 00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary 03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF 11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera 15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’ 24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct 26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset 33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity 34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats 40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’ 45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry 54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era 58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community. In a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through the World Cup! This will be dropping every Wednesday on Patreon - so we've gone with the imaginative title of World Cup Wednesdays! If you join, you'll also be getting ad-free main episodes, loads more bonus episodes, magazine retrospectives and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community. Patreon subscribers get: BONUS EDITIONSExclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories. WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament. RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTIONFlicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past. MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHANYour chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A. JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITYConnect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show. What’s includedExclusive contentQ&AsAd-free episodesPrivate community Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into Pep Guardiola’s story at Manchester City 10 years on from his appointment at the club and the difficulties he would face in his opening season. Join us as we explore the highs and lows, from the thrilling victories to the unexpected defeats. We discuss his controversial decisions, key matches, and the significant signings that shaped the team's future. Can Pep's philosophy adapt to the rigors of English football? Discover how one of the world's most acclaimed coaches navigated his debut season and set the stage for a legacy at the Etihad. Don't miss out on the in-depth analysis and special bonus content available exclusively on our Patreon page, following the link below: https://www.patreon.com/cw/ItWas 00:00 Exciting News: Join Our Patreon Community! 02:51 Introduction 04:47 Pep Guardiola's First Season Struggles 07:56 The Tactical Challenges and Key Matches 15:52 Pep's Appointment and Early Expectations 22:02 Transfer Market Moves and Squad Challenges 27:53 Yaya Touré's Controversial Exit 28:56 Manchester City's Winning Streak 30:34 Champions League Group Stage Drama 32:02 Pep's Concerns and Criticisms 43:49 Champions League Humiliation 51:44 End of a Disappointing Season 53:19 Looking Ahead: Pep's Future at City Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're launching on Patreon! And to kick things off, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community. In this first episode in a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through historic issues of football magazines - starting with Shoot! If you join, you'll also be getting all of our main episdoes ad free, bonus episodes, World Cup countdown and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community. Patreon subscribers get: BONUS EDITIONSExclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories. WORLD CUP COLLECTIONOur countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament. RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTIONFlicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past. MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHANYour chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A. JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITYConnect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show. What’s includedExclusive contentQ&AsAd-free episodesPrivate community Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are excited to announce that we will be launching a Patreon on Friday 6th February, where you can get bonus episodes and exclusive content. Follow the link below to sign up: Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. On today's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue exploring one of the most controversial football transfers - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. In this second part of the two-part series, they delve into the public and private turmoil surrounding the transfer, including the dramatic fallout at both clubs, fan reactions, and the momentous pig's head incident. They also examine the long-term impact on Figo's career and friendships, and the profound changes this transfer spurred in football. Don't miss this thrilling conclusion! 00:00 Exciting News and our Patreon Launch 02:51 Introduction to the Episode 04:28 Speculation and Media Frenzy 06:17 Election Drama and Figo's Dilemma 07:30 The Final Decision 09:52 The Fallout and Consequences 11:51 The Election Results 13:56 Figo's Reluctance and Pressure 16:26 The Persuasion Tactics 19:20 The Final Agreement 28:19 Florentino's Persuasion Tactics 31:22 Figo's Announcement and Gaspar's Reaction 33:14 The Fallout in Barcelona 40:57 The First El Clásico After the Transfer 43:49 The Infamous Pig's Head Incident 48:56 The Lingering Legacy and Impact 53:20 Figo's Reflections and Conclusion Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into one of the most shocking football transfers of all time - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. They discuss the immense impact of this transfer on both clubs, the controversy surrounding it, and how it altered the landscape of football transfers forever. Featuring insights about the political machinations in both clubs, the role of agents, and the seismic shift this transfer created in the football world, this episode brings to life the dramatic story behind the headlines. Tune in for part one of this fascinating two-part series! 00:00 Quote to open the episode 05:53 Figo's Role and Style of Play 09:16 The Political and Historical Context 17:03 The Presidential Election and Florentino Perez 26:39 Florentino Perez's Strategy 30:44 The Complacency at Barcelona 31:23 Florentino Perez's Scramble for Figo 32:20 The Role of José Veiga 36:11 The Pre-Contract and Its Implications 48:06 The Election and the Leak 52:54 The Fallout and Future Implications 53:20 Exciting News: Launching a Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. In the final episode of our four-part special on the NASL, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the decline and eventual collapse of the league. From financial instability, over-expansion, and missed opportunities, to the controversial business decisions and the rise of indoor soccer. This episode covers the myriad of factors that led to the NASL's downfall. Explore the final turbulent years, the impact on US Soccer, and the lessons learned from one of football's most intriguing leagues. 00:00 Introduction to the NASL and Its Peak 02:08 The Decline Begins: Post-Pele Era 05:36 Celebrity Owners and Financial Woes 09:01 The Cosmos' Dominance and League Format Issues 19:21 Franchise Movements and Player Strikes 29:03 The Beginning of the End: Financial Losses and Decline 36:13 Ownership Disputes and Relocations 37:53 Franchise Failures and Player Movements 43:34 NASL's Struggles and FIFA's Ultimatum 44:28 The Final Collapse of NASL 55:18 Failed Experiments and Indoor Soccer 01:01:49 The End of NASL and Its Legacy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this third episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dive deep into the transformation kicked off by the arrival of legendary soccer star Pele. We go on an epic journey of the NASL, from shambolic beginnings to becoming one of the most iconic and influential leagues in world football, even if just for a short while. We explore how the NASL went from drawing crowds, to attracting the highest-paid player in the world, and the ensuing excitement and challenges that followed. Featuring the key moments, star players, innovative marketing strategies, and the initial signs of financial instability, this episode captures the league at its highest just before its inevitable decline. Don't miss this fascinating look at the peaks of NASL's history and what ultimately led the league to stumble. Tune in next week for the final episode of this four-part series. 02:33 The Growth of Soccer in American Schools and Colleges 03:32 Financial Struggles and the Arrival of Pele 13:54 Innovative Rule Changes and Attendance Issues 18:11 The Role of Media and Celebrity Influence 23:55 The NASL's Expansion and Financial Commitments 31:20 The Pursuit of Soccer Superstars 33:01 Pele's Impact on American Soccer 34:56 The Rise of NASL Franchises 36:59 Challenges and Financial Struggles 39:11 Marketing Gimmicks and Celebrity Players 55:03 The Golden Year of 1977 01:04:36 Pele's Farewell and Future Uncertainties Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Following the sacking of Ruben Amorim by Manchester United, here is a recommended replay from our episode released in November 2024, when Amorim first arrived at Manchester United. Jonathan and Rob discuss the clubs persistent challenge in finding a manager capable of replicating the legacy left by its legendary figures - something that still stands today... Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue onto part two of a four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL). They discuss the initial attempts to establish professional soccer leagues in America, including the rivalries between the NASL and the National Professional Soccer League (NPSL). The episode covers the impact of foreign teams, the financial and logistical hurdles, and the ongoing struggle to gain popularity and acceptance in the U.S. market. With input from past experiences and key figures, they provide an in-depth look at why American soccer faced numerous setbacks and what was done to overcome them. Join us next week for part three! 01:09 The Early Years of Soccer in the USA 01:34 The Impact of the Wall Street Crash 06:46 Post-War Challenges 09:43 The Decline of American Soccer in the 1950s 21:46 The 1960s: A Decade of Missed Opportunities 27:15 The Birth of the NASL 33:25 Lack of American Players in Early Leagues 34:55 Rival Leagues: NPSL vs NASL 35:42 Initial Matches and Attendance Issues 40:11 Discipline Problems and Game Abandonments 48:10 Financial Struggles and Legal Battles 49:13 National Team Struggles and Attempts at Growth 50:31 Foreign Influence and Pre-season Tours 54:48 Financial Instability and League Contraction 58:20 NASL's Unconventional Season Format 01:00:32 Legacy and Future Prospects of NASL Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring you a New Years Day Special Episode. We hope you enjoy and wish you all a Happy New Year! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by a special guest and former footballer Dennis Tueart. In this first episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), Dennis, known for his iconic moments with Sunderland and Manchester City, shares his remarkable journey from English football to the booming NASL in the 1970s. Discover his experiences with the New York Cosmos, playing alongside legends like Franz Beckenbauer, replacing Pele, navigating cultural shifts, and understanding the challenges and triumphs that shaped the future of soccer in America. Don't miss this deep dive into football history, glamour, and the evolution of the beautiful game in the United States. 00:57 Dennis Tueart's Transfer to the Cosmos 02:05 Challenges and Decisions 04:19 Arrival and Initial Impressions 07:15 Experiences and Reflections 11:38 Life in the NASL 17:18 Training and Facilities 18:58 Pre-season and Early Challenges 25:14 The NASL's Unique Rules 29:55 Challenges and Triumphs in the NASL 30:25 Play-off Performances and Nicknames 30:59 Intense Matches and Injuries 31:36 The Semi-final Comeback 36:27 Winning the Conference Final 37:40 Facing Rodney Marsh and Tampa Bay 42:51 Touring and Transitioning 46:53 Final Reflections and Legacy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this Christmas Special Episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author John Smith to talk about his new book - 'Escape: A Love Letter to a Cult Football Classic' all about the film 'Escape to Victory'. The trio delve into the making of the film, revealing behind-the-scenes stories, discussing the film's historical context, and analysing the football sequences. We take a look at inside stories from the remarkable cast and crew, including Pele and Sylvester Stallone. The three discuss amusing anecdotes, the authenticity of the football matches and the film's lasting impact. This episode is a must-listen for fans of film and football history. Wishing you all a Merry Christmas from the It Was What It Was team! 00:00 Introduction and Welcoming John Smith 04:41 The Making of 'Escape to Victory' 20:44 Historical Resonances and Themes 28:59 Behind the Scenes Stories 34:09 The Escape Plan in the Film 37:11 The Cast and Their Connections 41:36 The Missing Footballer Mystery 46:01 Lack of Female Characters 47:06 The Football Game Analysis 53:19 The Half-Time Escape Plan 58:00 The Final Match Moments 01:06:13 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into George Orwell's infamous essay on sport, specifically focusing on Dinamo Moscow's 1945 tour of Britain. They explore Orwell's controversial viewpoint that serious sport is akin to 'war minus the shooting,' and delve into the historical and political context of this post-WWII football tour. The discussion covers the tactical innovations introduced by the Soviet team, the media and public's reaction, and the broader implications for international sport and politics. This episode provides an in-depth look at how football can both unite and divide, reflecting on Orwell's critique and its relevance to today's sports culture. 00:00 Introduction: The Dark Side of Sports 01:05 George Orwell's Influence on Sports 01:49 The Political Context of the 1945 Moscow Tour 02:47 The Goodwill Tour: Ideals vs. Reality 05:00 The Soviet Union's Football Strategy 08:23 The Arrival of Dinamo Moscow 21:45 The First Match: Dinamo Moscow vs Chelsea 30:53 The Political Showdown: Arsenal vs Dinamo Moscow 32:31 The Final Game in Scotland 35:56 Soviet Propaganda and the Legacy of the Tour 40:36 Tactical Innovations and English Football's Response 47:36 George Orwell's Critique of Sport 53:18 Football's Role in Nationalism and International Relations 01:00:51 Concluding Thoughts on Orwell and Football Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest and historian David Goldblatt. In this episode, they discuss David's new book, 'Injury Time,' which examines the impact of recent seismic events like Brexit, COVID-19, and populism on football in Britain. They delve into the popularity of football despite its numerous challenges, the economic disparities within the game, and the global obsession with the Premier League. The conversation also touches on the significance of football as a cultural and political space, the rise of women's football, and the ethical concerns surrounding state ownership of clubs. They also examine the role of fans and community. This episode provides a comprehensive look at the current state and the future of the beautiful game. 00:00 Introduction 00:55 The State of Football Today 03:21 Football as a National Obsession 07:41 Globalisation and Football's Cultural Impact 19:12 Economic Disparities in Football 21:35 Football Reflecting Social Inequalities 29:50 Football's Role in Social and Political Issues 31:20 The Role of Football in Society 33:38 Economic Inequality in Football 36:50 The Super League Controversy 41:25 Cultural Resistance and Football's Future 54:42 The Impact of COVID on Football 59:20 State Involvement in Football 01:02:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.