Advertise on podcast: On Theme: Design Systems in Depth

📲 Text the show your thoughts! I'm back from Zeroheight's Converge conference in Bristol, UK, with my recap and thoughts. In this minisode, find out my three major themes from the event: reducing complexity, shifting towards code to design, and the narratives "framing our future".  Resources & Links: Zeroheight's Converge3 practical ways LLMs can support design systems teams today, on the Zeroheight blogFrom Promises to Practice: the Future of Design Systems, my talk at Converge (video coming soon)John Voss's talk Framing the Future (coming soon)US Section 174 R&D Tax explained

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Surprise minisode! In this quick episode, hear a few ways AI tools are useful for design systems now, my new favorite design-eng handoff tool, and three can't-miss industry events this fall.

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Chat, this is the last episode of season one! Thank you for listening and supporting the show! There's no better way to wrap up, IMO, than an optimistic and curious exploration of what it means to be a creative human in an increasingly technological world. So to wrap up season one, Natalya Shelburne joins me to explore how design leaders can cultivate creativity in an era of rapid technological and organizational change. Drawing from her degree and research in creativity, Natalya shares insights on fostering innovation, overcoming fear-driven management styles, and why embracing artistic thinking is essential for teams navigating the age of AI. She explains the importance of creating safe environments to unlock creative potential and why outdated corporate structures simply can't compete. Plus, flow state, goats, expansive thinking, and hobbies.  Links & References Natalya Shelburne on LinkedInGitHub PrimerNatalya's talk at Beyond Tellerand, Channeling Chaos: Role of the Artist in the Age of AITwilio's Paste design system assistantResearch and books mentioned:Lev Vygotsky on cognitive developmentLauren Sosniak on phases of learningDr. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's classic book Flow and an overviewOliver Burkeman's Four Thousand WeeksThe Extended Mind 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Y’all, I’ll be honest. Some days, I’m scared and nervous and uncomfortable with AI’s emergence, and implications, too. But I am also curiously optimistic, and more importantly — I don’t want to use any platform I have to spread even more fear and discontent and drama. So today you’re getting a dose of two things that I love: infrastructure and optimism. Drawing from his experience leading design systems at three very large orgs, Sam Anderson from Intuit shares how framing design systems as infrastructure can help them be recognized as essential to business success. He shares his vision for the importance of patterns as the next frontier of systems work, particularly in a rapidly changing tech landscape accelerated by AI, and we talk about what leadership conversations look like. Plus, Sam drops a spicy take that he believes AI won’t destroy design system jobs but make us even more valuable. Links & References Sam Anderson on LinkedInSam's article Design Systems are Infrastructure: The evolution of design systems in the age of AINate Baldwin's Leonardo and Proportio 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Guy Segal joins Elyse to unpack the messy, complicated world of… people. Guy shares practical strategies from his experience at Thomson Reuters, including the powerful "pre-mortem" exercise he used to rebuild trust and alignment for the design system. They get vulnerable and unpack why (as cliche as it sounds!) genuine listening, storytelling, learning to give and receive feedback, and actively engaging with product teams, is so much more impactful than relying solely on processes or artifacts. Plus, Guy shares why he hated it at first when product teams started using the name of the design system. Links & References Guy Segal on LinkedInGuy's talk at BeMore Festival on feedback, Working with Humans: Resolving Conflicts with EmpathyGuy's talk Mastering the Painless Design CritiqueGuy on the Knapsack Design Systems PodcastGuy's podcast, Design Downtime, celebrating the joys of living a balanced creative life outside the pixels and wireframesBrad Frost's article Choosing a Name for your Design System 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Ben Callahan joins Elyse for a fun conversation on creating impact with design systems. Ben shares insights from his consulting experience, discussing common pitfalls like organizations expecting a design system without adequately supporting their teams. They break down the "Four Quadrants of Design System Impact" framework, which breaks down tactical versus strategic work, helping teams avoid pitfalls like endless component creation. Plus, hear Ben’s predictions for the future of design systems Links & References Ben Callahan on LinkedInThe QuestionRedwoods, Ben's community supporting design system practitionersBen's post on The Four Quadrants and Why you’re NOT seeing Holistic Impact from your Design SystemBen's overview of our episode of The QuestionCam Worboy's Broken Promises of Design Systems talk at Config 2024 (and the worst screen made with DS components)Kotter's Leading Change book 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Marcela Rodriguez Joos shares the story behind the One UPS project, a massive effort to modernize and unify UPS’ brand and digital experiences through a new design system. Marcela reveals how a “why does everything look different?” moment from their CEO was the catalyst for this ambitious effort, how they’re collaborating across a massive org, and successfully reducing development timelines from years down to months. Plus, Marcela’s team dishes out their design system spice takes! Links & References Marcela Rodriguez Joos on LinkedInMarcela on the Into Design Systems Connect your Design System to business value Roundtable 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Ever had a team come to you after an a11y audit like, "but I used the design system, why does my product have accessibility defects??" Daniel Henderson-Ede, one of design systems' leading accessibility voices, joins me on the show today to unpack a spicy myth in design systems: that accessibility can be fully "built-in." Daniel walks us through the common pitfalls of overselling accessibility, how teams often mistakenly assume the system handles everything, and we explore the challenges and missteps of managing accessibility. 📋 Plus, check out Daniel's Systems-Accessibility Ownership Matrix resource that you can use on your Design System team! Links & References Daniel Henderson-Ede on LinkedInDaniel's websiteDaniel's recorded talks and showsMantis & Co accessibility servicesDownload Daniel and CVS's Figma Web Accessibility Annotation KitStark Figma pluginUse this for your teams! Daniel's Systems-Accessibility Ownership MatrixInconsistent consistency within design systems 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! This one’s a little bit different than some of the projects and topics that we've had on the podcast so far — we’re talking about starting a new role. I think it's one of the hardest things that we do sometimes as design system practitioners, because the design system is really about changing your organization, changing the way we build UI, and so there's a lot of weight on your shoulders when you come into a new role. Starting a new job as a design system practitioner can feel exciting and terrifying all at once—but Amy Ogg has some insights to help us navigate the emotional rollercoaster. Amy and Elyse chat about how to spend your first 30-60-90 days, building genuine trust, and why making big changes as a new hire can actually backfire. They commiserate over balancing the overwhelming backlog as a small team, and Amy shares why she thinks cross-training outside your expertise is a must. Plus, Amy shares how her experience as a barista shaped her approach to UX design ☕️ 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References Amy Ogg on LinkedInDesire paths in UXAmy’s article on how starting out with research and understanding users can help shape effective design systems on the Design Systems for Figma blogYour first 90 days in a UX design role by Christopher NguyenThe First 90 Days (original book) by Michael D WatkinsInto Design Systems Meetups - Seattle, USA chapterWill Larson's book Staff Eng 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Design systems aren’t just about components—they’re about how teams work together to build better UI. Jeff Pelletier, a frontend engineer with a design background, joins the show to talk about feature workflows for design systems, how design and engineering can work in parallel, and why documentation should be part of the process, not an afterthought. Jeff and Elyse dive into how to create API-first component specs, the challenge of design-code parity, and the ~drama~ of having a formal process. 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References Jeff Pelletier on LinkedIn and websiteNathan Curtis, Design System Features Step by StepJeff's article Front-end Roles and ResponsibilitiesJeff on Design System TiersChris Coyier, The Widening Responsibility for Front-End Developers 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Spotify’s ad platform just got a serious glow-up, and Smith and Tyce are here to tell us how they pulled it off. Smith Schwartz, Product Design Manager, and Tyce Clee, Engineering Manager, walk us through the redesign of Spotify Ads Manager—why it was needed, how they used design systems to make it happen, and what it took to get buy-in. Smith and Tyce tell us about the shift from a playful UI to a more data-dense, enterprise-friendly experience, how their local design system worked alongside Spotify’s global Encore system, and why storytelling (not just metrics) is key to selling design system work internally. Plus, how a simple name like "Bye Purple" helped them drive alignment and make the redesign a company-wide priority. 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References Smith Schwartz on LinkedInTyce Clee on LinkedInBackstory time! Smith & Tyce on the Knapsack Design Systems podcast last year talking about Ads Manager pre-redesignReimagining Design Systems at Spotify on spotify.designCreating coherence: How Spotify’s design system goes beyond platforms, on the Figma Shortcut blog 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! Adriana Morales from HEB (aka the best grocery store) poses a tricky question for the show: what happens when your design system can't support all your products, or your flagship product? Hashtag enterprise organization problems. Adriana and I explore some of the scenarios where this might occur, the "system of systems" concept, product team autonomy, and pace layers. Don't miss Adriana's explanation of her "ways of working" workshops and thoughts on creating empathy across your org. 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References Adriana Morales on LinkedInHEBPace layers (might as well just link this from every episode??) 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! I invited Beau to the podcast because of his great Medium articles on design systems... but he's not working on a system team right now! Beau shares his experiences on both sides of the—fence? aisle?—and the lessons he's taken away. We chat about the tradeoffs of building for speed vs stability, bringing new designs for AI products into the system, onboarding, cross-team empathy, and why we're always complaining about the other side. Plus, find out what Beau wanted to be when he grew up. 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References Beau Ulrey on LinkedInBeau on the Knapsack Design System PodcastBeau's articles on MediumA Design System That Holds Your HandUS Bank Shield Design SystemOracle Redwood Design SystemShip Faster by Building Design Systems Slower - Big Medium (pace layers) 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! ToniAnn joins the show to share her experience building a multi-brand design system for BetMGM and Entain's joint venture. This episode is our first project deep dive and it's full of legacy codebases, lessons learned, and big wins. ToniAnn talks to us about dealing with ambiguity, owning your decisions, and keeping leadership on board as you ship a system that changes the way your business works—and your partners businesses, too. 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References ToniAnn Drenckhahn on LinkedInBetMGM 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers. 

📲 Text the show your thoughts! If the way we're building design systems has a fatal flaw, it's "waiting for enough investment to get it right." In this episode, Brian teaches us to not wait for permission and how your product teams' success is your success. Brian reminds us how important it is to remember that we're all on the same team, building the same product—and why internal politics and storytelling matters way more than components. Plus, why design systems are like toilets (not a Dad joke, I promise) and why Brian and I think "measuring the system is hard" is a beautiful thing. 💖 On Theme is a brand new podcast, so if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe and sign up at designsystemsontheme.com! Links & References Brian Alfaro on LinkedInThe Washington Post Design SystemBrian on bringing value first on the Connecting your Design System to business value panel with Into Design SystemsBrian on the anatomy of WaPo's component sprints on the Figma blog 🎨🎟️ Into Design Systems is May 25-28 Get your ticket at intodesignsystems.com/ontheme Into Design Systems is back with their annual virtual conference, May 28-30, 2025. Get your ticket now for three days of practical, hands on sessions showing the what, why, and how of design systems. This year, the conference is focused on developer handoff, accessibility, multi brand theming, and governance. You'll get hands on knowledge you can put to use at work immediately, files and resources to take away, and hear from very well known industry speakers.