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Joining me today from Evanston, IL is ALLEN EPLEY — singer, songwriter, guitarist, bassist, & loop-maker — of the bands SHINER, THE LIFE & TIMES, & BIRDHANDS. Shiner’s about a week away from the second half of their fall tour, with upcoming dates starting October 4th in Lawrence, KS, then moving across the north- & southwest for a couple weeks after. Those shows will, in part, celebrate the release of THE Y SECTION, a career-spanning collection of b-sides, loosies, & rarities, out October 9 via SPARTAN RECORDS. In early November, they’ve got 4 dates in Japan: one night in Kyoto & Nagoya, & two in Tokyo. Their excellent 2025 record, BELIEVEYOUME, came out just over a year ago this month, also on Spartan. Links below. From 2019 to 2025, he hosted THIRD GEAR SCRATCH, a podcast about the practical realities of making art today & what it takes to survive creatively in a mostly unforgiving world. There are many many great conversations, but definitely tune into the interview he recorded live @ Fitzgerald’s with Matt Talbott, if you haven’t already. That’s episode 100. It’s a rare view into Matt’s creative process & projects, direct from the source. Link below. So check out all of that, along with Allen’s other projects The Life & Times, BirdHands, his solo record Everything, & his lesser-discussed quartet Spacesuit, who released a lovely slow, moody, & atmospheric record called Future Girls back in 2013. In this episode, we talk about keeping the math seductive, the textures of puncturing the fourth wall, the Kansas City-Champaign nexus, & the simple sonics of the psychedelic glow. **** THE Y SECTION **** BELIEVEYOUME **** SHINER TOUR DATES **** T.G.S. 100: MATT TALBOTT **** THE LIFE AND TIMES **** BIRDHANDS **** ALLEN EPLEY, EVERYTHING LP **** SPACESUIT **** 03:15 // “Surgery” (Shiner) 04:27 // Fall Tour ’26 06:20 // The Y Section Compilation 10:34 // “Only Shallow” (MBV/Shiner) 14:45 // “A Sailor’s Fate” & Barkmarket 20:24 // 4th Wall Breaks, BYM, & “The Alligator” 28:23 // Vocal Inspirations 30:31 // CD Renaissance 34:38 // Andy Mueller’s Shiner Designs 42:13 // HUM in KC 49:18 // Downward is Heavenward / “The Scientists” Discussion 01:11:51 // "Christ-Sized Shoes" (Shiner) **** Further Listening: GRIFTERS, Crappin' You Negative BARKMARKET, Gimmick & L. Ron CHEAP TRICK, "Mandocello" **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s guest is ANDY MUELLER — designer, photographer, art director, filmmaker, business owner, record label founder, & longtime visual wizard of HUM-world. As with Love Cup last time around, Andy’s been mentioned in almost every episode, & for good reason.  In 1993, he founded OHIO GIRL DESIGN CO., a Chicago-based art studio with an amazing portfolio that looks more & more influential with every passing year.  He’s done image & packaging work for artists ranging from HUM & Shiner, to Castor, Braid, Menthol, Jimmy Eat World, Molly McGuire, Trans Am, & many others. Across the late ‘90s & early 2000s, his Ohio Girl offshoot label Ohio Gold Records released albums by Dianogah, C-Clamp, the Zincs, & Pinebender, for all of whom he also did design & photography. He started THE QUIET LIFE clothing company in 1997 & has run it full-time ever since. They have an always-updating online store, as well as a flagship location in the Highland Park neighborhood of Los Angeles. In this episode, we discuss the spooky alchemy of photography, dissect the design of HUM’s 3 most recent records, & explore the surprising monumentality of a less-is-more approach. **** VERY IMPORTANT: We talk about lots & lots of images in detail during this conversation, & a 50-page PDF of those is linked below. [Some quick factual corrections: the R.E.M. album with Starn Twins photography is actually Out of Time from 1991, & the photographer behind the “Green to Me” single cover is ALISON DYER.] **** IMAGES WE DISCUSS **** THE QUIET LIFE **** TIMESTAMPS: 03:12 // Pinebender, "California" (Ohio Gold Records) 04:42 // Ohio Girl Origins & Early Influences 13:27 // Steakdaddy Six, the U. of I., & Honcho Overload 27:40 // Y.P.A.A. Design 45:46 // Ohio Girl Credits 50:38 // Y.P.A.A. Design, Part 2 01:07:54 // "The Pod" & "Stars" Videos 01:16:51 // D.I.H. Design 01:30:14 // "Puppets" & "Comin' Home" EP Designs 01:34:25 // Inlet Design 01:41:37 // '90s Album Art Peers 01:45:31 // C-Clamp, "Morning" (Ohio Gold Records) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today I’m speaking with 2 fixtures of the Champaign-Urbana music scene, MARK BALDWIN & KENT WHITESELL. In the ‘90s, Mark sang & played guitar in the highly influential Love Cup, a band name you’ve heard in almost every episode of this show. Their discography was small but their impact was huge, gradually perfecting what Mark has called the “heavy but pretty” sound at ear-splitting volumes. Since then, he’s played in Absconder, California Mummy (with Matt Talbott), The Shit People, & The Mezzanines, who just released a new record called Sugarpants this year. There’s lots to explore in his ever-expanding discography on Bandcamp, links below. Kent started playing in & recording with power-pop bands in high school, including The Martyrs, Schoolyard Truce, The Outnumbered, & Three Hour Tour, with whom he’s working on new material this year. In 2010, The Martyrs released a CD reissue of their discography, including their first & only record, plus compilation tracks & other extras. He’s also produced dozens of Champaign bands at his local studio, Clubhouse, from the ‘80s & ‘90s through today, including HUM’s first record, Hot Glue Gun, Mother, 16 Tons, Corndolly, Hardvark, & many others. In this episode, we talk about Champaign’s early indie & alternative scene, the importance of Jane's Addiction, & the telepathic thrill of improvising songs in public. There were some technical difficulties toward the end of the interview, so the song conversation is a little abbreviated. **** LOVE CUP BANDCAMP **** MEZZANINES BANDCAMP **** LOVE CUP INTERVIEW **** THE MARTYRS BANDCAMP **** TIMESTAMPS: 03:04 // "Billfershort" (Love Cup) 04:52 // Mark & Kent's Early History 06:06 // Kent's '80s Bands 06:55 // "Trends of the Turmoil" (The Martyrs) 08:19 // "Boy on a Roof" (The Outnumbered) 12:06 // Mark's First Bands 15:34 // Clubhouse Studio 18:03 // "Strangled with Flowers" (The Flat Earth Society) 20:55 // Love Cup Demos & Tearing Water EP 25:35 // "Tearing Water" (Love Cup) 27:30 // Jane's Addiction, the "Heavy But Pretty," & Local Touring 38:06 // ...Grefus Gronks & Sheet LP 46:47 // "Nothing in Particular" (Love Cup) 49:00 // Meeting HUM Members 53:50 // "Roar, I'm a Tiger" Discussion 01:07:00 // "Scientifically Yours" (Love Cup) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week I’m talking with MATT MCGUYER & ALEX WALLWORK of the Evansville, Indiana bands FAERIE RING & AMBLARE. On August 21, Faerie Ring will release their self-titled third album on KING VOLUME RECORDS. It was produced, engineered, & mixed by Tyler Watkins, Alex Kercheval, & Morgan Satterfield @ Postal Recording in Indianapolis & mastered @ Sound Artillery in Miami by Jonathan Nuñez of Torche. Two singles are out already, & -- in my opinion -- this record is the band’s best work yet. Pre-order links below. Across the month of July, they’re passing through Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, & Indiana, with hopefully some more dates in more cities later this year. Not to be missed. In 2024, Amblare released their self-titled debut on Melodic Virtue, & if you haven’t heard it, pause this & play that. (Link below.) The album features the late Bryan St. Pere’s final recorded drum work, & it’s a beautiful testament to his craft & personality behind the kit. His playing is the first thing you hear on the record, as it should be. In this episode, we discuss amplifier worship, crawling deeper into love, & vibrational empathy at the micro-scale. **** FAERIE RING **** "NEW GODS" VIDEO **** "FATTEST WITCH" VIDEO **** AMBLARE **** EPISODE 001: AFTERNOON WITH THE AXOLOTLS **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:37 // "New Gods" (Faerie Ring) 03:56 // Faerie Ring News 11:15 // Live Show Ethos 15:50 // New Singles & Videos 24:07 // "Fattest Witch" (F.R.) 25:32 // Amblare to Faerie Ring Chemistry 32:45 // Hearing HUM, Meeting Bryan 36:25 // BSP's Drum Approach 42:38 // "Puppets" Discussion 01:15:49 // What's Next 01:20:27 // "Mine'd" (Amblare) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s guest is BOB NANNA of the bands BRAID & HEY MERCEDES.  Earlier this year, POLYVINYL RECORDS reissued the entire Hey Mercedes discography on vinyl, & in 2023 they released a 25th anniversary remixed & remastered edition of Braid’s Frame & Canvas. Obviously, those are highly recommended. Links below. His other projects include Lifted Bells, The City on Film, Friction, & -- as we’ll discuss in a few minutes -- the explosive but under-heard ORWELL, who released a compilation LP called 1995 on EXPERT WORK RECORDS. He has an extensive archive of both original solo work & cover songs on his Bandcamp, also linked below. In this episode, we discuss genre-fluid shows, the Champaign-Urbana/Chicago nexus, the joys of alliteration, & the sonics of the psychonautic state. [Editor's note: the Castor song title we couldn't remember is "Stay Lo"] **** BRAID @ CBGBs '97 **** BOB NANNA BANDCAMP **** HEY MERCEDES REISSUES **** BRAID, FRAME & CANVAS 25TH ANNIVERSARY ED. **** ORWELL, 1995 LP **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:20 // “A-List Actress” (Hey Mercedes) 03:35 // CBGBs Flyer & Fireside Lineups 09:00 // Champaign/Urbana/Chicago Scenes & Venues 15:41 // Touring with (& Covering) Castor 20:53 // “Moving Backgrounds” (Bob Nanna/Castor) 21:49 // Orwell, 1995 LP 23:12 // “Ph9 Green” (Orwell) 25:25 // “4242” (Orwell) 29:06 // “9.30” (Orwell) 30:40 // HUM & Braid Shows 32:27 // “The Pod” Video & DIH Fandom 35:42 // “The Pod” Discussion 01:02:22 // Upcoming Shows 01:04:16 // “A Dozen Roses” (Braid) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s episode features a couple of LTG alumni, LYLE HODGES & KEITH M., & they’re back to discuss the first 2 Slide Away shows.  We talk about the '90s rock scene’s newest youth infusion, bask in the hypnotic audiovisual spectacle, give thanks to everyone who made it happen, & pick some standout moments from an unforgettable weekend. Links to these guys’ previous episodes & various musical projects in the notes below. **** LYLE: ELECTRIC STALLION // CHROME CHRIST EPISODE 024: CENTAUR'S IN STREAMS **** KEITH: MEMORY ENTRY // THE NEW SCENE PODCAST EPISODE 025: THE INUIT PROMISE **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s guest is DOMENIC PALERMO of the band NOTHING. This past February, in-between tours of Japan & the U.S., they released their 5th album, A SHORT HISTORY OF DECAY, on RUN FOR COVER RECORDS. It veers from raw downer lullabies to overdriven beat-based raptures of distortion, sometimes even within the same song. Nothing will play their second album, TIRED OF TOMORROW, in full at all 6 dates of this year’s Slide Away Festival, which begins this Friday & Saturday (May 15th & 16th), in New York City, then moves to Chicago & L.A. the following weekends. As everyone listening already knows, HUM are headlining those shows, marking their first live performances in almost 7 years. Nicky started the festival in 2024, & it’s already featured a multi-generational variety of shoegaze-adjacent bands like Swervedriver, Astrobrite, Swirlies, Whirr, Knifeplay, Mo Dotti, & many others. In this episode, we discuss the logistics of festival curation, night-capping at a pseudo-strip club, the weary routines of touring, the kaleidoscopic gloom of songwriting, & meeting Kevin Shields when you can barely stand up. **** SLIDE AWAY '26 **** "VERTIGO FLOWERS" VIDEO **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:35: “Cannibal World” (Nothing) 04:07: Japan & M.B.V. Shows 18:24: Album Titles 22:08: Touring Logistics 24:29: Slide Away Prep & Production 32:00: Lineups, HUM, & '90s Influences 43:24: Tired of Tomorrow LP 49:39: “Vertigo Flowers” Song & Video 57:59: “Curse of the Sun” (Nothing) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I’m joined today by JAY RYAN — bassist, guitarist, screenprinter, poster-maker, author, teacher, & longtime shining star in the HUM-verse. For 3 decades, Jay’s been designing & making posters & prints at his studio THE BIRD MACHINE for artists ranging from HUM & Matt Talbott, to Stereolab, Melvins, Shellac, the Flaming Lips, Seam, & Silkworm, to his own band, DIANOGAH. He’s published a trio of richly illustrated books brimming with his designs, from the 90s to now, with lots of helpful captions that situate the works in their respective times & places. The first book is called 100 Posters, 134 Squirrels, & it was followed by Animals & Objects In & Out of Water, & then No One Told Me Not to Do This. Links to everything below. Dianogah recently released a discography box set titled 1995-2008, which compiles their 4 full-lengths & another LP of singles & compilation tracks. The sets have sold out, but you can still get the remastered audio from their Bandcamp, also linked below.   In addition to Dianogah, Jay plays in the live presentation of Chicago band THE MOST DISTANT OBJECT, who are set to release their second record, VOLITION, on May 4th. In this episode, we discuss the productive limitations of screen printing, dig into the scratchy histories inside his images, & try to make sense of the ups & downs of the angsty bounce. [We refer to quite a few posters during the conversation, & a PDF of those is linked below as well.] **** JAY'S BOOKS **** DIANOGAH **** THE MOST DISTANT OBJECT **** POSTERS WE DISCUSS **** TIMESTAMPS: 03:05 // "Lone Tree Point" (Dianogah) 04:11 // Line Work 11:50 // The Bird Machine 15:53 // Gig Poster as Concept & Challenge 24:25 // HUM Posters 32:42 // Matt Talbott Solo Posters 38:34 // Early '90s & Electra 2000 49:24 // "Pinch and Roll" Discussion 01:08:07 // "The Smallest Chilean" (Dianogah) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s conversation is with JONATHAN PEREZ, co-founder & guitarist of TRAUMA RAY.  This past February, they released their CARNIVAL EP, a highly recommended 5-song trip through the warped abstractions of the psyche. It takes their sound in more meditative & even ambient directions, while also intensifying the pulverizing riffs & rhythms they’re known for. Following the success of their U.S. run with Loathe last fall, they’re just a couple weeks away from a nationwide co-headlining tour with GLIXEN, which goes from April 10 to May 16. Jon also writes & records music as JUAN CORDERO, & he released his debut LP, SONGS ABOUT GHOSTS, via SUNDAY DRIVE RECORDS back on Halloween 2023. FFO: Duster, Bedhead, Lowercase, Sparklehorse, & so forth. In this episode, we move song-by-song through the Carnival EP, talk about surviving the love/hate relationship with your own music, & explore the overlap between everyday life & the cosmos. **** CARNIVAL EP **** SPRING 2026 TOUR DATES **** SONGS ABOUT GHOSTS LP **** HUM @ CHINA CLUB / CHICAGO '93 **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:30: "Chameleon" 03:44: Carnival Record Release Show 08:44: "Hannibal" Video 10:36: Carnival EP 14:18: "Carousel" 18:38: "Hannibal" 23:19: "Méliès" 28:50: "Funhouse" 34:12: "Clown" 40:03: HUM's Influence 42:36: "Liftoff" 47:32: "Pewter" Discussion 01:06:39: "Breath" **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s guest is GABE VAN — producer, mixer, engineer, singer, songwriter, & guitarist. He owns & operates AKIRA AUDIO in Woodland Hills, CA, where he’s done a wide range of in-house sound work across music, film, fashion, TV, & web media. There he's recorded thousands of sessions, most frequently with drummers KELLII SCOTT of FAILURE & BEN KOLLER of CONVERGE. He’s also gone on the road to do live sound with Failure, Autolux, Local Natives, & others. His band MOSSBREAKER released their first album, Between the Noise & You, in 2017 on Glory Kid Records. Check the Bandcamp links below to hear that, along with an early EP, singles, & more recent demos. They opened for HUM & Mineral at the Regent Theater in LA in September 2015. In this episode, we discuss finding your niche, the stress-tests of guitar tech'ing, & the way sound travels through the memory-space of time. **** https://www.akiraaudio.com **** https://mossbreaker.bandcamp.com/album/between-the-noise-and-you **** HUM on Modern Rock Live [1998] **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:25 // "Runway" (Mossbreaker) 03:37 // Akira Audio 07:53 // Recording Schools 12:55 // Working with Ken Andrews 19:55 // "Between the Noise & You" (Mossbreaker) 23:06 // Hearing HUM 26:45 // "Ms. Lazarus" Discussion 49:31 // "Shamer" (Mossbreaker) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s guest is TOM WINDISH — a highly respected veteran booking agent, manager, A&R executive, & label owner. Across three decades, he’s worked at every level of the music industry, from booking shows out of his college dorm room to navigating the global circuits of some of music’s biggest names. His booking roster has included artists of many genres, ranging from HUM, New Radiant Storm King, & Smog to Billie Eilish, M83, & Lorde. He’s also a frequent speaker at music industry conferences, sharing his experience & guidance with audiences around the world. In this episode, we talk about bringing bands to campus, the complexities of long-distance calling, & what appeared on HUM’s very first rider. **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:08: Mowing Lawns, Buying Tapes 03:43: College Radio & Booking Bands 10:55: Poster Children & HUM @ Campus Pub 14:33: Venue Networks 16:51: Long-Distance Calls 19:23: Reconnecting with HUM 22:29: Howard Stern Show 26:43: Alternative Boom 33:50: "Yume Utsutsu" (Lamp) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week I’m talking w/ DAVID CHAVEZ & RACHEL STANG from the Kansas City band FOREVER ☆.  A few months ago, they released a 7-song EP called 2ND GEN DREAM on À LA CARTE RECORDS, & it’s bursting with euphoric waves of guitar, smeared ethereal vocals, & the manic energy of drum n bass.  Highly recommend checking that out, along with their 3 SERIES EP from 2023. Links below. David also works at SEEN MERCHANDISING, where he probably had a hand in screen-printing the HUM shirt you’re wearing right now. In this episode, we talk about the mechanics of the breakbeat, the acoustics of sonic weapons, & the cosmic patterns of deep space. **** https://foreverstar.bandcamp.com/music **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:08 // "Heat Seeking Missile" (F☆) 03:25 // 2nd Gen Dream EP 12:23 // 2GD Layout 15:55 // "Blade Silver Metallic" (F☆) 22:10 // "Competizione" (F☆) 27:40 // Discovering HUM 35:22// "Little Dipper" Discussion 58:56 // "Your Angel Speaks" (F☆) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Joining me today from the outskirts of Austin, Texas is singer, guitarist, & songwriter ANDY SWITZKY. In 1989, Andy co-founded HUM, & he wrote for & played on their demo, the first LP (Fillet Show), & the subsequent 2 singles (Hello Kitty & Sun Dress). He was a vital part of the Champaign music scene in the ‘80s & ‘90s, & also made music in Tugrik Dhugugrik, Designer Mustard Gas, Obvious Man, & Alaskan Mothership. From time to time, he uploads material from that period to his SoundCloud page; link below. In this episode, we talk about the mid-to-late ‘80s Champaign music scene, blending the dissonant with the melodic, & trying to match the volume of your awe-inspiring drummer. **** https://soundcloud.com/aswitzky **** Steve Albini's Basement Studio **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:16 // "Lake of Fire" (Alaskan Mothership) 03:29 // Early Music Fandom 07:29 // First Bands 10:16 // Tugrik Dhugugrik 11:34 // "Mucus" (T.D.) 12:48 // Obvious Man 15:46 // "Facts & Figures" (O.M.) 17:51 // Designer Mustard Gas 18:39 // “Workstation” (D.M.G.) 20:42 // Forming HUM 22:20 // “Kissing Me is like Kissing an Angel, She Said” Demo Tape 30:18 // "Time is Melting" 34:45 // "Kissing Me..." 37:44 // "Diamonds" 41:32 // Fillet Show LP 50:48 // "Sunshine" (Alaskan Mothership) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today I’m talking with guitarist & producer KURT BALLOU — a true luminary of the heavy music scene, on both sides of the mixing board.  In 1990, he co-founded the pioneering metalcore band CONVERGE, whose 11th studio album, LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH, arrives on February 13. Kurt also owns & operates GOD CITY STUDIO in Salem, MA, where he records, engineers, produces, & mixes a breathtaking array of bands. He’s given an instantly recognizable mix of grit & clarity to scores of landmark punk, metal, & hardcore records, including LPs by his own band, as well as Cave In, Isis, Pg. 99, Torche, Trap Them, Russian Circles, & many more.  In this episode, we discuss the mechanics of track sequencing, the alien geometry of sound capture, & the dreamy rhythms of deep time. **** https://godcitystudio.com **** https://www.godcityinstruments.com **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:19 // "Love is Not Enough" (Converge) 03:27 // Album Leaks 06:52 // New LP & Track Sequencing  12:09 // Studio Geometry 16:01 // ‘90s Boston Rock Scene 21:22 // Hearing HUM / “Stars” on the Radio 27:34: "Isle of the Cheetah" Discussion 01:00:38 // "Eagles Become Vultures" (Converge) [Misc: Karate, "This Plus Slow Song"] **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today’s conversation is with TIM DOW, one of my all-time favorite drummers.  He’s played in and/or toured with SHINER, YEAR OF THE RABBIT, SEASON TO RISK, THE JOY CIRCUIT, ON, VAE VICTIS, & more.  He was in Shiner from 1993 to ‘98, & drummed on their early landmark records, SPLAY & LULA DIVINIA, as well as on their first 6 EPs. Both LPs have since been remixed & remastered, & then reissued in 2024 on SPARTAN RECORDS.  After leaving Shiner, he played in a couple of early 2000s L.A. bands with Failure’s Ken Andrews: first the pop-leaning electronic project ON, then the heavier rock band Year of the Rabbit. He & his Y.O.T.R. bandmates, Jeff Garber & Sol Snyder, then tracked & self-released their first & only studio record, so far, called EP 1.  He’s also done studio session work for Pete Yorn, Abandoned Pools, Jonny Polonsky, & others.  In this episode, we talk about ‘90s recording styles, the web of alt-rock riff tropes, & the revved-up release of thunderous drumming. **** TIM'S DRUM DISCOG (Streaming) **** "Iron Clad Lou" Video **** TIMESTAMPS: 02:34 // "Brooks" (Shiner) 07:10 // Pre-Shiner Recordings 12:23 // Shiner & Indie Production 19:47 // Riff Drumming 22:43 // "Sailor's Fate" (Shiner) 26:12 // "My Life as a Housewife" (Shiner) 32:22 // '90s Drumming Influences 33:18 // L.A., Ken Andrews, & Year of the Rabbit 39:12 // "Absent Stars" (Y.O.T.R.) 41:59 // The Joy Circuit 44:32 // "X's" (T.J.C.) 45:48 // Pete Yorn Sessions 48:42 // "Undercover" (P.Y.) 49:42 // HUM's E2K Tape 56:34 // "Iron Clad Lou" Discussion 01:26:13 // "Sideways" (Shiner) **** Support the show! **** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.