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In this deeply moving conversation, John sits down with Valentyn Syniy, a Ukrainian pastor, theologian, and author whose life and ministry have been profoundly shaped by the reality of war. For many of us—especially those who have never served or lived in a war-torn region—war can feel abstract. Something debated from a distance. Should troops be sent? Should they not? But for Valentyn and millions of others, war is not theoretical. It is daily life. It is uncertainty, fear, loss—and for many, hell experienced in the here and now. This interview was recorded under extraordinary circumstances. Scheduling had to account for the very real possibility of Russian airstrikes and power outages. Valentyn’s wife graciously joined the conversation to assist with translation at moments, helping ensure that everything Valentyn wanted to communicate was conveyed with clarity and care. Together, we explore: What it means to live, pastor, and hold onto faith in the midst of active warHow violence and trauma test long-held theological assumptionsThe difference between discussing war and surviving itWhere hope, honesty, and spiritual resilience are found when everything familiar is under siege Some stories shared in this episode may be difficult to hear, but they are necessary—and deeply human. About the Book Valentyn is the author of God Under Siege, a powerful and unflinching reflection on faith, suffering, and God’s presence amid the devastation of war. Drawing from lived experience rather than distant theology, the book challenges easy answers and invites readers into a more honest, grounded faith. Get the book: AmazonMajor booksellersWherever books are sold Support the Show — Join Our Patreon We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for. Subscribers get access to: Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversations If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast 👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible. For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This episode dismantles the most persistent myths surrounding immigration and replaces them with how the system actually works. We walk through immigration policy historically and in real time—naming the racial roots of U.S. immigration law, explaining why “just do it legally” is not a serious policy position, and breaking down the real costs, timelines, and barriers people face today. We also look at crime data, benefits myths, economic contributions, and the very real impact current enforcement strategies are having on American farmers and food systems. Topics covered Why immigration law has always been shaped by racePolicies that restricted Italians, Asians, and other groupsObama-era deportations vs. today’s enforcement tacticsWhy deportation numbers vary depending on who’s countingReal immigration pathways, timelines, and costsWhy asylum is slow—and dangerous to wait throughCrime data vs. fear narrativesTaxes, benefits, and economic contributionFarm labor shortages and food supply impactsWhy immigration reform is urgent—not theoretical Key historical policies referenced Chinese Exclusion Act (1882)Immigration Act of 1917Emergency Quota Act (1921)Immigration Act of 1924 (Johnson–Reed Act / National Origins Act) Immigration system & policy resources U.S. State Department — Visa Bulletinhttps://travel.state.gov/visa-bulletinU.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services — Asylum & Work Authorizationhttps://www.uscis.gov/asylumhttps://www.uscis.gov/i-765Migration Policy Institutehttps://www.migrationpolicy.org Crime & data resources National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine — Immigration & Crime Summaryhttps://nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/21746/issue_brief_crime.pdfPNAS peer-reviewed study (Texas arrest data)https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117Cato Institute — Incarceration Rates by Immigration Statushttps://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-incarceration-rates-2010-2023 Benefits, taxes & economy National Immigration Law Center — Benefits Eligibilityhttps://www.nilc.org/resources/overview-immeligfedprograms/Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/ Agriculture & labor impact Wisconsin Public Radio — Farm labor shortageshttps://www.wpr.org/news/deportations-worry-farmers-labor-shortage-harvestDairy Herd Management — ICE raids and dairy workforce losshttps://www.dairyherd.com/news/labor/overnight-exodus-how-ice-raid-cut-dairys-workforce-more-half Reflection question If the system looked then the way it looks now—who would have been allowed in at all? Support the Show — Join Our Patreon We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for. Subscribers get access to: Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversations If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast 👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible. For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org Special music provided by: Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This episode steps back and asks a harder question: What has the church done in moments like this before—and what does faithfulness actually require now? We begin with church history, tracing how Christians have repeatedly been asked to bless state violence in the name of order and safety. We examine how labels like “criminal,” “terrorist,” and “threat” have historically been used to short-circuit moral responsibility. We then turn to Scripture—not as proof texts, but as story—allowing the biblical narrative to confront modern assumptions about power, violence, and the stranger. Topics covered Historical patterns of Christian complicity with state violenceWhy labels matter more than we thinkFalse equivalence arguments (“what about…”)Why due process is a moral issueJesus, the stranger, and state powerWhy faith rooted in the margins looks different Scripture referenced Exodus 22:21Leviticus 19:33–34Deuteronomy 10:18–19Isaiah 1Amos 5Micah 6:8Luke 10:25–37Matthew 25:31–46Matthew 26:52John 18–19Romans 12–13 (read together, not selectively) Historical & analytical resources Migration Policy Institute — Immigration & Enforcement Analysishttps://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/explainersTransactional Records Access Clearinghousehttps://tracreports.org Reflection question Who are we being asked to look away from—and what does that cost our faith? Support the Show — Join Our Patreon We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for. Subscribers get access to: Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversations If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast 👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible. For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org Special music provided by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

When Fear Becomes Policy In this episode, we address what’s happening right now in the United States as Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) operations escalate in visibility, intensity, and violence. This is not a political episode. It’s a human one. We examine verified facts, video evidence, and legal realities surrounding recent enforcement actions, including documented cases involving American citizens, the failure to follow established protocols after lethal force, and the growing pattern of intimidation, escalation, and public spectacle. We also talk about confirmation bias—how fear and identity shape what we’re willing to see—and why Christians and the spiritually curious alike have a responsibility to trust evidence over narratives. Topics covered What ICE can and cannot legally doWhy due process matters even when immigration law is involvedThe danger of pre-justifying violenceConfirmation bias and moral shortcutsWhy “order” is not the same thing as justiceThe role of witnesses, neighbors, and allies Key resources & links American Civil Liberties Union — Know Your Rights (Immigrants & Bystanders)https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rightsNational Lawyers Guild — Legal Observers & Recording Rightshttps://www.nlg.org/legal-observers/Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC Immigration)Independent reporting on ICE enforcement and immigration court datahttps://tracreports.org/immigration Reflection question When fear is loud and authority is visible, how do we decide what we’re willing to accept—and what we’re willing to question? Support the Show — Join Our Patreon We’ve just launched a brand new Patreon, and it’s packed with content many of you have been asking for. Subscribers get access to: Brand new exclusive videos on requested topicsStudy guides for deeper reflection and group useReference materials and sources to support further learningBehind-the-scenes content and extended conversations If you value thoughtful, well-researched conversations like this one—and want tools to keep exploring—Patreon is the best way to support the work and dive deeper. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast 👉 Join us on Patreon and help make conversations like this possible. For all things Deconstructionists check out: www.thedecontructionists.org Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode Description In Part Two of our conversation with Alexander Shaia, we move beyond theory and into practice—exploring what spiritual transformation actually looks like in real life. In Part One, we traced the foundations of Dr. Shaia’s work and why his approach to the Gospels resonates so deeply with people navigating faith, doubt, and deconstruction. In this episode, we go deeper—into lived experience, inner change, and the courage it takes to move forward when certainty falls away. Dr. Shaia shares how spiritual frameworks are meant to form us, not control us, and why the Christian tradition—at its best—has always been about movement, growth, and becoming. This conversation speaks especially to those who feel stuck between belief and disbelief, longing for a faith that can hold both honesty and hope. About Our Guest Alexander Shaia is a theologian, speaker, and author best known for his work on the transformational structure of the Gospels. His book, Heart and Mind, explores the fourfold journey found within the Christian tradition and presents a compelling alternative to rigid, belief-based models of faith. Dr. Shaia’s work has become especially meaningful for those who are deconstructing inherited belief systems while still seeking depth, wisdom, and spiritual grounding. Education: Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, CA, 1991 Graduate Certificate, Pastoral Psychotherapy, University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA, 1982 Master of Religious Education, Seattle University, Seattle, WA, 1981 M.A., Counseling Education, University of Alabama in Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, 1976 B.A., Cultural Anthropology, University of Notre Dame du lac, Notre Dame, IN, 1974 Jungian and Sandplay Studies, 1973 - Current; month intensive with Dora M. Kalff – Jungian analyst & originator of Sandplay, Zollikon, Switzerland, July/August 1989 Psychosynthesis Certificate, Psychosynthesis Training Institute, San Francisco, CA, Two year training, 1986-1988  Website: www.quadratos.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/quadratos/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/Quadratos1/featured Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderJohnShaia/ Support the Show If you’d like to help support The Deconstructionists Podcast and go deeper with the kinds of conversations we’re having here, check out our brand-new Patreon. Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast 🎧 Book of the Month Club is back📚 Educational resources & study guides available for anyone supporting the show at $5/month or more—less than the price of most Starbucks drinks💛 Your support helps keep the show independent and sustainable Listen & Connect Subscribe wherever you get your podcastsFollow us on social media for clips and updatesShare this episode with someone navigating faith, doubt, or transition Website: www.thedeconstructionists.org Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

A Holiday Conversation with Dr. Alexander Shaia — Part 1 For many people, the holiday season isn’t filled with joy and nostalgia — it’s filled with grief, loneliness, exhaustion, and complicated memories. This episode is especially for those who find this time of year difficult. In Part One of this two-part holiday conversation, we’re joined by our dear friend Alexander Shaia for a reflective, unhurried dialogue about meaning, presence, and the wisdom found in honoring seasons rather than fighting them. Rather than offering platitudes or quick fixes, Dr. Shaia invites us to slow down — to consider what it looks like to live faithfully and humanely when certainty feels thin and the world feels overwhelming. Drawing from ancient Christian wisdom, lived experience, and deep compassion, this conversation offers space to breathe, reflect, and feel less alone. This is not a teaching session or a debate. It’s a pastoral, contemplative conversation — meant to be received gently, especially by those who are carrying more than they can name this season. Part Two will continue the conversation, moving deeper into themes of hope, transformation, and what it means to move forward without rushing resolution. 🕯️ About Dr. Alexander Shaia Dr. Alexander Shaia is a theologian, speaker, author, and Quadratos-trained scholar best known for his work on the ancient Christian fourfold Gospel model, a framework that predates modern linear approaches to Scripture and spiritual formation. His work focuses on helping individuals and communities rediscover cyclical wisdom, spiritual maturity, and transformative faith — especially for those who feel disillusioned, wounded, or worn down by rigid or overly simplistic expressions of Christianity. Dr. Shaia is widely respected for his ability to bridge scholarship, spirituality, and real human experience, offering language for faith that is honest, compassionate, and deeply grounded in history. 📚 Learn More & Connect with Dr. Shaia Official Website:https://www.alexandershaia.com & https://www.quadratos.org/Books by Dr. Shaia:Heart and Mind: The Four-Gospel Journey for Radical TransformationReturning From Camino Speaking & Teaching:Information about events, workshops, and courses can be found on his website. Education: Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, CA, 1991 Graduate Certificate, Pastoral Psychotherapy, University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, WA, 1982 Master of Religious Education, Seattle University, Seattle, WA, 1981 M.A., Counseling Education, University of Alabama in Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, 1976 B.A., Cultural Anthropology, University of Notre Dame du lac, Notre Dame, IN, 1974 Jungian and Sandplay Studies, 1973 - Current; month intensive with Dora M. Kalff – Jungian analyst & originator of Sandplay, Zollikon, Switzerland, July/August 1989 Psychosynthesis Certificate, Psychosynthesis Training Institute, San Francisco, CA, Two year training, 1986-1988  🎧 Coming Up Next ➡️ Part Two of this holiday conversation continues with deeper reflection on wisdom, hope, and what it means to live faithfully in uncertain times. If this episode resonates with you, consider sharing it with someone who might need a quieter, gentler voice this season. Follow us:www.thedeconstructionists.org or on social media! Support: https://patreon.com/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode Summary: Part 2 of our conversation with philosopher and friend of the show Peter Rollins goes even deeper into the psychological, existential, and communal dynamics of faith and identity. If Part 1 set the stage, Part 2 pulls the curtain all the way back. This is one of those conversations that lingers. It’s dense, it’s provocative, and it’s full of the kind of insights that Pete has become known for all around the world. Resources & References: Peter Rollins’ official website: https://peterrollins.comPyrotheology gatherings, seminars, and resourcesPeter’s books and lectures on belief, identity, and desire Connect With Us: Website: www.thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram: @deconstructionistspodcastEmail: [email protected] you enjoyed this two-part conversation, share it with a friend and tag us on social media. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode Summary: In this long-awaited return to the podcast, philosopher, storyteller, and longtime friend of the show Peter Rollins joins us for a rich, mind-bending conversation about faith, identity, and the transformative potential of doubt. Peter was one of our earliest guests and someone who understood the heart of this podcast from day one. After far too much time away, he’s back — and this conversation does not disappoint. In Part 1, we dig into some of the themes Peter has become known for: embracing uncertainty, challenging religious narratives that promise certainty or comfort, and exploring how belief functions psychologically and communally. One of the biggest takeaways in this episode is Peter’s insight into Communion vs. community — a deeply fascinating reframing of what spiritual connection actually is and what it isn’t. Whether you’ve been following Pete’s work for years or you’re encountering him for the first time, this episode is packed with ideas that will challenge, encourage, and maybe even unsettle you (in the best way). Resources & References: Peter Rollins’ official website: https://peterrollins.comBooks by Peter Rollins, including The Idolatry of God, The Divine Magician, and How (Not) to Speak of GodPyrotheology community and events Connect With Us: Website: www.thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram: @deconstructionistspodcastEmail: [email protected] tuned for updated Patreon tiers launching soon! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

🎉 We’ve Launched a Brand New Patreon! After years of letting our old Patreon quietly collect dust, we’re excited to officially announce that The Deconstructionists Podcast now has a fully rebuilt Patreon — with brand new tiers, fresh content, and one beloved classic perk we kept just for you. This podcast has always been — and still is — 100% independent. We cover the costs out of pocket, not because it’s easy, but because we believe in the conversations we’re having and in the community that’s grown around this work. Your emails, messages, and stories are what keep us going. ✨ What’s New on Patreon? Brand new Patreon hubUpdated support tiersLong-form educational video contentExtended versions of topics you may have seen on TikTokResources and references to go deeperAnd more exclusive content on the way The short-form clips you see on social media are just the beginning — on Patreon, we take the time to slow down, provide full context, and really explore the questions beneath the surface. ❤️ Thank You Whether you’re a brand new supporter or someone who’s been with us for years, we cannot thank you enough. As we approach our 10-year anniversary, we have some special surprises planned to celebrate with you. 🔗 How to Join You can support the show and join our Patreon: Through the link here: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastOr on our website at thedeconstructionists.org More interviews, deeper dives, and exciting new content are already in the works for the year ahead. Thank you for being part of this journey with us. — The Deconstructionists Podcast Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode SummaryIn this deep-dive episode, we explore one of the most influential — and controversial — doctrines in the history of Christianity: Original Sin. For many of us, Original Sin was presented as a foundational truth. We were told it explained everything wrong with humanity: our impulses, our desires, our bodies, our failures. But where did this idea actually come from? How did early Christian communities understand human nature? And how did one interpretation, shaped by the life and worldview of Augustine, grow into a theological framework that still impacts psychology, sexuality, gender, and modern Christian identity? This episode unpacks the text, the history, the cultural influences, and the lasting consequences of the doctrine — and invites listeners to reconsider what it means to be human, good, flawed, and beloved. In This Episode, We Explore: 📜 1. What Is Original Sin? The doctrine as many of us inherited itWhy it came to dominate Western ChristianityHow it differs from concepts of sin in early Jewish and early Christian thought 👤 2. Augustine’s Influence Augustine’s life, trauma, and worldview — and how each shaped his theologyHow his readings of Paul became the backbone of Original SinWhere he diverges from earlier Christian writers and the Greek Fathers 📖 3. The Biblical Passages Used to Support Original Sin Romans 5 and its contested interpretationsGenesis 3 as story versus doctrineHow translation choices influenced meaningWhy Jewish interpretations of the same texts are radically different 🔍 4. The Theology Behind the Theology How ideas about sex, bodies, and desire shaped the doctrineShame vs. guilt — and how Western Christianity confused the twoThe psychological cost of believing we are “born broken” ⛪ 5. What Early Christians Actually Believed A look at diversity in early Christian thoughtEastern Christian views on sin, growth, and human potentialHow the doctrine evolved over centuries, not overnight 💔 6. The Modern Impact How Original Sin shaped purity cultureHow it influenced sermons, parenting, and “Christian counseling”Its role in reinforcing fundamentalism’s fear-based frameworksWhy many of us internalized shame as spirituality 🌱 7. Reclaiming a Healthier View of Humanity Alternatives rooted in scripture and traditionWhy many theologians argue the doctrine is not essentialWhat happens when we start from belovedness rather than brokenness Why This Episode MattersSo many deconstruction journeys begin with questions like: “Am I really this messed up, or did I just inherit a harmful framework?”“Is the human story fundamentally about failure?”“Why does the church talk about sin more than love?” Understanding where the doctrine of Original Sin came from — and how historically recent and culturally shaped it actually is — can be freeing. It opens the door to new ways of understanding ourselves, our bodies, our past, and our future. It also challenges the narrative that progressive or post-evangelical Christians are the ones “not taking the Bible seriously.” In reality, reassessing the doctrine through context, language, and scholarship is exactly what taking scripture seriously looks like. Resources Mentioned / Recommended ReadingThe Birth of Satan – Pagels & B. McGinnThe Sin of Certainty – Peter EnnsThe Evolution of Adam – Peter EnnsThe Story of Original Sin – John E. ToewsSin: A History – Gary A. AndersonWritings of Augustine, especially Confessions and On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins Connect & Share Your ThoughtsHave a topic you’d love to hear explored in 2026? Reach out anytime: Website: www.thedeconstructionists.org Email: [email protected] Instagram/TikTok: @deconstructionistspodcast Want to support the show? The Patreon relaunch is coming early next year with new tiers and some returning favorites. Thank you to everyone already supporting — it truly makes the work possible. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode OverviewIn this second half of John’s conversation with Pastor Joe Ingle, we continue exploring the deeply human, often heartbreaking realities of prison ministry — particularly Joe’s decades of work with individuals on death row. If Part 1 introduced the calling and contours of his work, Part 2 steps fully into the emotional, spiritual, and ethical complexities of walking with people whom society has condemned and often forgotten. Joe shares stories from his time working with incarcerated individuals, the end-of-life moments he has witnessed, the failures and blind spots of our justice system, and the surprising ways grace and humanity still break through in the darkest circumstances. This is not a conversation about abstract theology or distant policy — it’s about presence, dignity, and the costly practice of seeing people when no one else does. In This Episode, We Explore: 👉 Joe’s experiences accompanying individuals through their final days and hours 👉 What capital punishment looks like from the inside — spiritually, emotionally, and practically 👉 The toll this work takes on families, communities, and those who minister in these spaces 👉 How systemic failures and racial inequities shape incarceration and sentencing 👉 The difficult conversations Joe has had with death row inmates — and the moments that stay with him 👉 The theological and moral implications of state-sanctioned execution 👉 Why Joe believes presence, not answers, is the most powerful form of ministry 👉 How his experiences have shaped his own understanding of justice, mercy, and the Gospel Why This Conversation MattersPastor Joe’s work forces us to confront the human cost of our justice system — not through statistics or talking points, but through stories of real people with real families, real trauma, and real hope. His ministry challenges us to consider: What does justice actually mean?What does mercy look like when lives hang in the balance?What does faith ask of us when the systems around us fail?And how do we honor the humanity of those our society has discarded? These questions aren’t easy — but they’re necessary. And Joe brings decades of lived experience to help us wrestle with them. About Pastor Joe InglePastor Joe Ingle is a long-time prison minister, author, activist, and advocate for people on death row. For decades he has been a steady presence for individuals facing execution, providing pastoral care, support, and companionship in some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable. His work has shaped national conversations on criminal justice reform and continues to call the Church toward deeper compassion and accountability. Listen to Part 1If you missed the first half of this conversation — including the origin of Joe’s calling and the stories that shaped his approach to justice — be sure to listen to Part 1. Support the Show If this episode resonates with you, you can help support the podcast by: 🔥 Leaving a 5-star review 🔥 Sharing this episode with a friend 🔥 Following us on social media 🔥 Subscribing so you don’t miss future interviews Your support helps new listeners find the show and keeps conversations like this possible. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this long-awaited and nearly lost conversation, John sits down with Pastor Joe Ingle, a longtime prison minister, advocate, and spiritual companion to people on death row. Joe’s work challenges our assumptions about justice, punishment, compassion, and what it means to show up for people society has thrown away. This interview was recorded last year and was almost lost forever when the laptop it was saved on died unexpectedly. Miraculously, the file was recovered just in time — and we are finally able to share Part 1 of this important two-part conversation. Following our recent episode with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, who offered insight into spiritual care within the military, Joe continues our exploration of ministry in difficult, often unseen places — where grief, hope, and humanity collide in profound ways. In This Episode In Part 1, we cover: Joe’s early call to prison ministryHow he became involved with individuals facing executionWhat it actually looks like to walk with someone on death rowThe spiritual, emotional, and human complexities of prison chaplaincyHow society frames “criminals” — and what we miss when we refuse to see their humanityThe cost of compassion, and why Joe refuses to turn awayWhy faith traditions often struggle to handle justice and mercy wellThe surprising places Joe has seen grace show up behind bars Why This Conversation Matters Joe’s work invites us to confront just how uncomfortable — and necessary — compassion can be. His stories shine light on systems we rarely see and raise hard questions about accountability, punishment, redemption, and what Christian faith looks like when lived out in the shadows. For listeners who appreciated our recent conversation with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, Joe’s perspective provides a powerful complement. Together, their episodes explore ministry in spaces most people never encounter, each revealing a different facet of what deep presence and care look like. About Pastor Joe Ingle Pastor Joe Ingle has spent decades ministering to incarcerated individuals across the United States, particularly those on death row. His work centers on accompaniment, advocacy, and restoring dignity to people society has deemed irredeemable. Joe is also an author and activist committed to criminal justice reform and the abolition of the death penalty. Links & Resources Grab a copy of Joe's book, "Too Close to the Flame: With the Condemned inside the Southern Killing Machine." Support the Show If this episode resonates with you, please consider: Sharing it with a friendLeaving a 5-star reviewSupporting the podcast on PatreonFollowing us on Instagram, X, TikTok, and YouTube Your support helps new listeners find these important stories. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, we continue our conversation with Army Chaplain Lieutenant Colonel Kerstin Hedlund. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, we recommend starting there for context. Kerstin has spent years serving alongside soldiers in moments of grief, trauma, transition, and deep personal struggle. Her work isn’t about offering easy answers. It’s about presence, listening, and holding space for real human complexity. This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with suffering, loss, or disillusionment. It’s also for those who care deeply about someone who has served. Kerstin’s insight offers a grounded and deeply humane perspective on what it means to stay present with one another through the hardest parts of life. Resources & Further Reading If you’d like to explore more about topics mentioned in this episode: “Soul Repair: Recovering from Moral Injury After War” – Rita Nakashima Brock & Gabriella LettiniThe Moral Injury Project – Syracuse UniversityVA National Center for PTSD: https://www.ptsd.va.govMilitary Chaplaincy Overview: https://www.goarmy.com/chaplain Connect with UsWebsite: thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram: @deconstructionistspodcastX (Twitter): @deconstructcastSupport the show: patreon.com/deconstructionists Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode Summary In this two-part conversation, John sits down with Pastor Kerstin Hedlund, a U.S. Army Chaplain whose story offers a rare window into what faith looks like when it’s lived out in the hardest and most human places. From her path into military chaplaincy to the deep questions that arise in the presence of trauma and moral injury, Kerstin’s perspective brings theology down to earth — into barracks, hospitals, and battle zones — where hope, compassion, and grief often collide. Together they explore what it means to serve others in a system defined by hierarchy and discipline, how empathy and faith can survive amid loss, and why doubt and mystery might actually make us more compassionate people. Why It Matters Pastor Kerstin’s story reminds us that faith isn’t tested in seminaries or sanctuaries — it’s tested in the trenches of real life. Her honesty about doubt, fatigue, and renewal challenges the neat formulas we often attach to belief and invites us toward something deeper, more embodied, and more human. Listen Now 🎧 Available wherever you get your podcasts. 🔗 More episodes at TheDeconstructionists.com Follow & Support 📸 Instagram — @thedeconstructionistspodcast 🐦 X / Twitter — @deconstructcast ☕ Patreon — Join for bonus episodes, behind-the-scenes discussions, and community Q&As Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode: Hell, the Devil, and Atonement Theories What exactly do Christians mean when they talk about hell? Where did the idea of the devil come from, and why does it look so different across the Bible? And why are there so many different theories of atonement—Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection—when most of us only ever hear one? In this episode, we dig deep into the history, language, and theology behind three core ideas that have shaped Christianity for centuries: Hell – from Sheol and Gehenna in the Hebrew Bible to Dante’s Inferno and modern evangelical preaching.The Devil – tracing the figure from the Hebrew Bible’s “accuser” to the cosmic enemy of God in later Christian thought.Atonement Theories – surveying models from Christus Victor to Moral Influence to Penal Substitution, and asking how these different views reveal the diverse ways Christians have tried to understand salvation. This conversation explores how these concepts developed over time, why they remain so influential, and what happens when we step back to ask whether we’ve been handed the whole story. Helpful Resources & Further Reading If you want to dive deeper, here are some books and articles we recommend: On HellEdward Fudge – The Fire That ConsumesRobin Parry – The Evangelical UniversalistJerry L. Walls – Hell: The Logic of Damnation On the Devil & SatanElaine Pagels – The Origin of SatanHenry Ansgar Kelly – Satan: A BiographyArchibald Robertson – The Devil: His Origin and His Fall On Atonement TheoriesGustaf Aulén – Christus VictorN.T. Wright – The Day the Revolution BeganFleming Rutledge – The Crucifixion: Understanding the Death of Jesus ChristTony Jones – A Better Atonement (shorter, accessible resource) Broader ResourcesBart Ehrman – Heaven and Hell: A History of the AfterlifeC. S. Lewis – The Great Divorce (a classic imaginative take, though not academic)The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entries on “Hell,” “Satan,” and “Atonement” (for an open-access scholarly overview). Connect with UsWebsite: thedeconstructionists.orgInstagram & X: @deconstructcast Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists1035/exclusive-content Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy