Advertise on podcast: The Legal Edge: Marketing Smarter for Law Firms

Most personal injury firms are the biggest spenders in the legal marketing world. Rachel Okun built hers the opposite way. As founder of Okun Law in Maine, she grew a profitable practice with no paid ads, no elaborate website, and no LinkedIn presence until earlier this year. Instead, she leaned on reputation, referrals, and relationships built inside her own community. In this conversation, Rachel and Rob talk about the moment that changed everything for her: missing her son's kindergarten Halloween parade and realizing she needed a different path. She shares how she rebuilt her career around time freedom, why she still personally talks to nearly every client, and why "listen" isn't a marketing buzzword at her firm but an actual operating principle. Rachel also opens up about her path from plaintiff's work to defense work and back, what that taught her about negotiation, and how she built a firm culture with no weekend work and real boundaries, without losing a single case. If you run a firm and wonder whether grassroots growth can actually compete with a big ad budget, this episode makes the case that it can. Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Rachel:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-okun-14486459/ Website: https://www.okunlawoffice.com/

Most law firms put their security budget into hardware. Matt Perry, IT and information security specialist at the Masters Law Firm in Charleston, West Virginia, says nearly every breach starts with a person, and that education will protect a firm better than any blinky light box. He has the stories to prove it. In this conversation, Matt and Rob trace his path from learning BASIC on an Atari 800 in 1982, to investigating financial and computer crimes for the Kanawha County Sheriff's Department, to joining the firm in 1999. His first big project there was scanning and indexing a tractor-trailer full of Fen-Phen discovery so the trial team could search it. Matt explains how the firm got through two ransomware attacks without paying, why a backup doesn't count until you've restored something from it, and the physical penetration test that ended with a well-liked attorney plugging a stranger's thumb drive into his own computer. He also shares what he does for the trial team, from straightening ties before the jury sees them to having an answer ready when a lawyer turns and asks, "Is there anything else I'm supposed to ask?" Plus how he set up ChatGPT to say "I don't know," and why he still won't put client medical records in the cloud. If you run a small firm and assume nobody would bother hacking you, this episode is a good reason to go check your backups and your front desk. Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Matt: Email: [email protected] Secure West Virginia: https://securewv.org Book: You're So Far Behind You Think You're In Front (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NYN1LWS?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback)

Most attorneys treat AI like a vendor problem. They wait for someone to sell them the perfect tool, or they avoid it entirely out of fear of sanctions. Kimberly Russell did neither. Kimberly is the founder and lead counsel at the Russell Law Firm. Before law school, she worked as a journalist, and she still approaches legal problems the way a producer approaches a story: starting with the end in mind. She spent years litigating mass tort cases, motion practice across multiple jurisdictions, and learning the hard way what parts of legal work are worth a lawyer's time and what can be delegated. But what sets Kimberly apart is how she thinks about technology. She didn't buy something off the shelf. She partnered with engineers who understand machine learning at the graduate level and built custom tools designed specifically for motion practice and litigation. Not chatbots that hallucinate case law, but deterministic systems that eliminate the risk of sanctions while moving work forward faster. She also trained large language models to understand her voice, her firm's objectives, and her niche, then used that foundation to generate a single LinkedIn post that pulled nearly 200,000 impressions and added 300 new followers in a matter of days. In this conversation, Kimberly and Rob break down the difference between law practice management AI and the tools you deploy in actual litigation, why most lawyers are approaching AI backwards by shopping for vendors before mapping their workflows, and how to use technology without getting sanctioned or losing your license. She walks through how she uses AI for legal research, document drafting, business development, and social media, and why she believes the lawyers who refuse to develop competency around this technology over the next two years are going to lose in the courtroom. Kimberly also talks about the emerging practice area she's building around AI harm, including cases involving deepfakes targeting minors, algorithmic employment discrimination, and product liability theories being applied to AI systems. She's tracking regulations and litigation in every state, advising businesses on liability, and co-counseling on cases that are reshaping how the law applies to technology. If you're a law firm owner who keeps putting off learning about AI, or you've tried it once and walked away frustrated, this episode will show you exactly what you're missing and how to start using it the right way. Connect with Rob: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Kimberly: Website: https://russellatlaw.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberly-lynn-russell/

Carey Beyer is a partner at O'Connor and Partners, a New York personal injury firm built around car accidents, construction and worksite injuries, medical malpractice, nursing home abuse, and product liability. He is also an accomplished appellate lawyer admitted to argue before the US Supreme Court, and he has argued in front of every level of the New York Courts of Appeal. But Carey built his public reputation somewhere else entirely: dog bite and animal attack law. Even though it makes up a small slice of his actual caseload, that niche became the platform that built his name, his referral network, and his firm's broader reputation. In this conversation, Carey walks Rob through where that reputation started, a dog bite case he lost at trial almost a decade ago and fought all the way through the appellate courts. That loss led him to write the amicus brief in Flanders v. Goodfellow, the New York Court of Appeals case that unanimously overturned twenty years of dog injury law. He breaks down his theory of "a niche without a niche," why young attorneys should plant as many professional seeds as possible instead of narrowing too early, and how showing up for local bar associations, writing, and speaking built credibility that no ad budget could buy. Carey and Rob also get into food poisoning and mass tort litigation, the events Carey built to bring young attorneys back into their local bar associations, and why chasing Google Ads is a losing game for most personal injury firms. If you are trying to build a name for yourself or your firm without competing dollar for dollar with the big spenders, this conversation lays out exactly how it is done.

Stolle Voigt was never supposed to be a lawyer. She grew up quiet, horse-obsessed, and far from any courtroom, until a cancer diagnosis at eighteen put her family in the middle of an insurance fight they didn't know how to win. The attorney who stepped in to help, a defense lawyer named Micah, became a mentor and close friend, and reshaped the entire direction of her life. Today Stolle is a partner at DLL Law, a Texas firm handling personal injury and commercial litigation out of Plano and Houston. She ran the trial advocacy program at Pepperdine Law School, finished second in the country in mock trial, and made partner faster than almost anyone Rob has interviewed on the show. What sets her apart is the path she took to get there: she worked plaintiff's side, then insurance defense, then came back to plaintiff's work, carrying the inside knowledge of how adjusters think with her the entire way. In this conversation, Stolle and Rob talk about why she believes plaintiff's attorneys with defense experience are simply better at the job, how a cancer diagnosis taught her patience she couldn't have learned any other way, and why she thinks the phrase "everybody hates us, so they need us" captures exactly what her profession gets wrong and right at the same time. She's honest about the reputation problem plaintiff's attorneys face, the difference between chasing a settlement and fighting for someone, and what it actually takes to market a firm without becoming the lawyer on the billboard. If you handle personal injury work, manage a firm, or want a clear-eyed look at what separates a good plaintiff's attorney from a bad one, this is a conversation worth your time.

Most attorneys spend years waiting to be handed leadership. Abby Chin built it from scratch while still in her early career. As co-managing partner of Cooper Elliott, a 12-attorney plaintiff litigation firm in Columbus, Ohio, Abby became one of the youngest people to step into that role in the firm's 30-year history. She did it by drawing on something that had nothing to do with law school: a decade of training as an NCAA Division I swimmer who competed at the Olympic trials three times. In this conversation, Abby and Rob break down what it actually takes to run a successful litigation firm while still trying cases, how an athlete's discipline translates directly into courtroom preparation, and why the stereotype of the personal injury attorney misses the point entirely. Abby talks openly about the moment she knew trial work was where she belonged, what it is like to manage people older than you with grace and directness, and why she believes the true sign of leadership is knowing when to let go. Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Abby:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbyfchin/ Website: https://www.cooperelliott.com/

Most attorneys who say they want to start a podcast never do. Most who do start one quit before it matters. Bob Byrne is neither. Bob is the president and managing shareholder at Martin Wren in Charlottesville, Virginia, with more than 20 years handling catastrophic personal injury and wrongful death cases. He is the only attorney in Virginia and one of roughly 100 in the entire country to hold a board certification in truck accident law from the Academy of Truck Accident Attorneys, a credential that requires years of verified experience, a written examination, peer references from opposing counsel, and judicial endorsements. A few years ago, Bob and his wife Lauren, a trial attorney and his co-counsel at Martin Wren, launched Trials of a Lawyer, a podcast built around the actual craft of trying cases. Two attorneys who try cases together and raise a house full of kids together, talking shop without a sales pitch attached. This conversation is not about whether podcasting is a good idea. Rob and Bob get into what it actually costs in time and commitment, who is and is not well suited to do it, how to navigate bar rules without neutering your content, what equipment actually matters, and what Bob has seen come back to him professionally since starting the show. Including cases, speaking invitations, and attorneys from across the country who recognized him at conferences before he knew who they were. If you are a firm owner who keeps telling yourself you need to start creating content, this is the honest read you have been looking for. Follow Rob and Bob: Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Bob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertebyrnejr Website: https://martinwrenlaw.com/about/attorneys/robert-byrne/

Most law firms shoot a few videos, get discouraged by low views, and quit. Jeff Hampton did the opposite. Starting in 2020 when he spotted a wide-open gap on YouTube, Jeff built a channel for Hampton Law Firm in Fort Worth, Texas that now pulls 18 to 20 million views a month and generates millions in annual revenue annually. He didn't stop there. When a cold-call attorney from Oklahoma offered him $50,000 to teach him the model, YouTube Rainmakers was born. In this episode, Jeff breaks down: Exactly how law firms can use YouTube as a true client acquisition engine, not a vanity platform Why practice area videos beat viral content every time How his three-step hook formula keeps viewers watching Why chasing views is the fastest way to kill your channel. Jeff also covers the intake side of video marketing, including how to attribute signed cases back to specific videos through disciplined CRM tracking, and why your sales attorney needs to be part of your YouTube strategy from day one. If your firm has dabbled in video and walked away thinking it doesn't work, this episode will show you exactly what went wrong and what to do instead.

When venture capital flooded the personal injury market and national firms started spending half a billion dollars a year on advertising, most small firm owners decided they couldn't compete. David Craig decided to do something different. As managing partner of Craig, Kelley & Faultless, a 10-attorney firm with offices across Indiana and Missouri, David has spent 40 years doing exactly one thing: truck accident and commercial vehicle cases. He's one of fewer than 100 attorneys in the country board certified in truck accident law, he's written two books including It's Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney, and he hosts After the Crash, a consumer-facing podcast ranked in the top five nationally among personal injury shows. In this conversation, Rob and David break down why the legal advertising market is unrecognizable from what it was 20 years ago, what the average consumer still doesn't know when hiring an attorney, and how a firm committed to depth over volume keeps winning cases, and clients, against gorillas with unlimited budgets. If you're a law firm owner trying to figure out how to compete without outspending the market, this episode is your blueprint. Timestamps:  00:00 Why Wrong Lawyers Win 00:18 Meet David Craig 01:54 Writing the Book 04:44 Empowering Clients 06:15 How PI Marketing Changed 09:45 Learning to Win at Marketing 11:51 Big Ads vs Real Quality 15:06 Unethical Solicitation Stories 18:02 Competing When Outspent 20:53 Authority Marketing in Action 25:13 Client Focused Firm Systems 27:13 Service Mindset and Empathy 29:02 Craft Before Care 30:10 Podcast With Purpose 32:02 Content That Converts 35:41 Building a Legacy Firm 37:06 Hiring From Law Clerks 40:04 Investing In People 41:54 Training To Stay Elite 44:54 Growing Without Breaking 46:36 Advice For Small Firms 48:41 Rapid Fire Marketing 52:10 Differentiate Or Lose 53:32 Where To Connect 54:13 Final Takeaway Follow Rob and David: Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with David:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-w-craig-78bb4a9/ Website: https://www.ckflaw.com/attorneys/david-craig/ Book: It’s Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney (available on Amazon) Podcast: After the Crash (YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts) Crash Map: semicrashmap.com

Most family law firms plateau at five attorneys—unable to scale without sacrificing quality, culture, or their sanity. Charles Hatley defied that ceiling. As CEO of Melone Hatley, he's grown a two-person operation into a 33-attorney, multi-state powerhouse that landed #3 on the Law Firm 500 and earned back-to-back Inc. 5000 recognition. In this conversation, Charles pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to make the leap from legal practitioner to business leader—from the Ritz Carlton-inspired client concierge department to the "flat circle" philosophy that keeps attorneys and staff aligned. If you've ever wondered how to scale a law firm without the wheels coming off, this episode delivers the blueprint. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction to Law Firm Growth 00:14 Meet Charles Hatley: From Litigator to CEO 01:38 Transitioning from Legal Practitioner to Business Leader 03:33 Big Law vs. Boutique Practice 06:44 Embracing Risk and Business Strategy 07:43 Stepping into the CEO Role 11:37 Scaling During COVID: Remote Work and Technology 13:11 Maintaining Client Experience Across Offices 16:35 Intentional Growth and Business Coaching 18:55 Balancing Growth and Profitability 20:40 Building a Strong Corporate Culture 22:50 Building a Culture-Focused Law Firm 24:03 Office Distribution and Autonomy 25:46 Preventing Burnout in Family Law 28:11 Hiring for Success 30:35 Leadership and Accountability 32:43 The CEO's Toolkit 34:36 Balancing Strategy and Operations 38:09 Cross-Industry Leadership Lessons 41:09 Rapid Fire Questions and Final Thoughts Connect with Rob: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Charles: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesdhatley/ Website: https://www.melonelawpc.com

Most attorneys think scaling means hiring expensive associates and leasing bigger office space. Diana Khan, founder of DK Law Group in Maryland, proved that wrong by growing from 3 employees to 43 in just three and a half years—all while raising three kids under seven and building multiple businesses including a title company, real estate brokerage, and property management firms. After a breaking point involving 15 costume requests for summer camp, Diana discovered that systems, not working harder, was the key to sustainable growth. From AI-powered weekly client updates to speaking at 323 events in her first year, this conversation reveals how Diana built authority, streamlined operations, and created an ecosystem of businesses that feed each other. If you're drowning in your practice or think technology and marketing are beyond your reach, this episode shows you exactly how to build a modern, scalable law firm without losing your mind—or your family time. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview 00:26 Diana Kahn's Multifaceted Legal Practice 02:01 The Importance of Systems in Legal Practice 04:49 Hiring and Managing Staff 09:41 Building a Business Ecosystem 12:15 Leveraging Technology and AI 26:40 Evaluating and Implementing New Technology 28:10 Building Authority Through Community Engagement 30:45 Overcoming Public Speaking Anxiety 32:02 Finding Speaking Opportunities 35:06 Building Authority Through Speaking 36:54 Engaging the Hispanic Community 38:15 Converting Speaking Engagements into Clients 38:54 The Power of Personalized Follow-Up 44:49 Mentorship and Its Benefits 46:22 Advice for Attorneys on Public Speaking 49:35 Stepping Out of Your Comfort Zone 52:16 Rapid Fire Questions 54:57 Conclusion and Contact Information Follow Rob and Diana: Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Diana:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianakhanmd/ Phone: 443-739-6724 Website: www.dklawmd.com

Family law is one of the most emotionally demanding and competitive practice areas in legal marketing. Maggie Nowell, family law attorney at the Nowell Law Firm in Spartanburg, South Carolina, has spent 14 years mastering it. After nearly a decade at the Kate Law Firm practicing exclusively in family law, Maggie joined her husband Mark at the Nowell Law Firm in December 2020—right in the middle of COVID uncertainty. Despite the timing, they've grown steadily every year since. Recognized as a Super Lawyers Rising Star every year since 2020 and a member of the inaugural class of the South Carolina Family Court Chapter of the American Inns of Court, Maggie shares the marketing strategies, client communication approaches, and reputation-building tactics that work in a market where word of mouth is everything. If you're a family law attorney looking to differentiate yourself in a crowded field or a solo practitioner trying to build something sustainable, this conversation delivers the blueprint. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction to the Legal Edge 00:32 Meet Maggie: A Family Law Expert 01:25 Maggie's Career Journey 03:39 Transition to the Nowell Law Firm 04:53 Navigating Challenges and Risks 06:42 Recognition and Credibility 13:13 Marketing Strategies for Family Law 18:54 Community Involvement and Client Acquisition 23:55 Attracting High-Level Clients 26:10 The Importance of Specialization in Family Law 28:07 Community Impact on Legal Marketing 30:38 Effective Client Communication 33:22 Common Marketing Mistakes in Family Law 39:12 Managing and Growing a Legal Practice 44:55 Rapid Fire Questions 47:15 Conclusion and Contact Information Follow Rob and Maggie: Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/ Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Maggie:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/margaret-nowell-280512102/ Website: https://www.nowelllawfirm.com/

Most attorneys launch solo practices with a brick-and-mortar mindset that bleeds cash before they sign their first client. Artie Vaughn, founder of Vaughn Defense, flipped that script entirely. After 12 years as a JAG officer in the US Air Force, Artie hung his own shingle in November 2023 and built a profitable criminal defense and Title IX practice from day one—all while keeping overhead under $2,500 a month. From AI-powered intake systems to why he refuses to mail anything to clients, this conversation reveals the operational secrets most solo attorneys never discuss. If you're thinking about going solo or struggling to scale without burning out, this episode shows you exactly how to build a lean, profitable practice that actually works. Timestamps: 00:23 Meet Artie Vaughn: From JAG Officer to Solo Practitioner 01:14 The Decision to Go Solo 04:03 Early Challenges and Lessons Learned 04:17 Advantages of Military Experience in Law Practice 06:30 Navigating the First 90 Days 07:55 Choosing Practice Areas: Criminal Defense, Student Conduct, and Title IX 12:06 Managing a Solo Practice Without Burnout 18:37 Client Acquisition and Marketing Strategies 22:12 Organic Content vs. Paid Advertising 23:49 Operational Excellence in a Solo Practice 24:25 Client Intake and Communication Systems 27:43 Navigating Title IX and Student Conduct Cases 30:56 Effective Client Communication Strategies 37:24 Ethical and Risk Management in Solo Practice 40:38 Rapid Fire Questions and Final Thoughts Follow Rob and Artie: Connect with Rob: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/   Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Artie:  Website: https://vaughndefense.com Email: [email protected]

Most personal injury firms burn through marketing budgets without understanding why their lead generation keeps failing. Devin Downey, founder of Blue Sky Legal, pulls back the curtain on what actually works, and what's putting firms at serious compliance risk. From the "vampire clients" you'll never reach to why your intake team's follow-up strategy is probably costing you cases, this conversation challenges everything you thought you knew about paid lead acquisition. If you're spending money on leads but not seeing ROI, this episode will show you exactly where the breakdown is happening. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction to Legal Edge and Guest Devin Downey 00:44 Devin Downey's Background and Blue Sky Legal's Origin 02:40 Challenges and Strategies in Legal Marketing 04:30 Compliance and Ethical Advertising in Legal Marketing 08:22 Mass Tort Marketing and Client Relationships 15:15 The Role of AI in Legal Marketing and Intake 20:03 Effective Lead Generation and Intake Processes 27:02 Performance Review Challenges 27:18 Importance of Screening and Questioning 27:42 Lead Generation and Attrition 28:52 Evolution of Intake Processes 29:27 Online Journey and Attrition Study 31:25 Branded Advertising vs. Referral Partners 32:20 Intake Follow-Up and Speed 33:44 Challenges in Lead Attribution 37:44 Media Buying and Lead Sourcing 41:58 Compliance and Risk Management 43:57 Rapid Fire Questions 48:31 Conclusion and Contact Information Follow Rob and Devin: Connect with Rob:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/   Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Devin LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devindowney/  Website: https://blueskyLegal.com

Most mass tort marketing follows the same tired playbook, spray and pray on social media, burn through budgets on expensive search ads, and hope something sticks. But what if the most effective channels are the ones everyone else has written off? In this episode, Zack Smith and Holden Berlin of Transport Digital Media share how they've built a lead generation machine that starts with data, not platforms. From their "cradle to grave" approach that controls every touchpoint to their surprising success with print media, they reveal strategies that challenge conventional wisdom in legal marketing. You'll discover why Camp Lejeune campaigns require different tactics than Roundup, how a sensitive doctor abuse case settled in record time through Spanish-language marketing, and why the intake process, not the ads, is where most campaigns fail. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction to High Performance Digital Marketing for Law Firms 00:48 The Origin Story of Transport Digital Media 02:39 Building a Unique Marketing Approach 07:50 Data-Driven Strategies for Legal Marketing 18:21 Challenges and Successes in Campaign Implementation 28:33 Facing Pricing Challenges in New Ventures 29:02 The Underrated Power of Print Media 32:06 Building Successful Client Partnerships 36:29 Understanding Marketing and Lead Generation 44:47 Future Trends in Legal Marketing 50:15 Advice for Law Firms on Marketing Strategies 54:45 Conclusion and Contact Information Follow Rob Rosasco and Zack Smith & Holden Berlin: Connect with Holden & Zack:  LinkedIn: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-rosasco-57672a3/  Website: Website: https://www.toodarnloudmarketing.com/ Connect with Zack Smith & Holden Berlin:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zacksmithprofile/ | https://www.linkedin.com/in/holdenberlin/  Website: https://transportdigitalmedia.com/