Advertise on podcast: Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple

I have become enchanted by myth. Commonly understood to mean an “untrue story,” the original definition of myth was actually quite the opposite. It is more rightly defined as “a symbolic, traditional narrative of unknown origin that relates actual events, often associated with religious beliefs.” In other words, myths were understood to convey truth. My friend Bill Turnbull once made a comment that has stayed with me. He said something along the lines of, “I believe there is no story more true than myth, because it reveals realities truer than any other.” (Excuse my poor paraphrasing, Bill!) In this episode, Meghan takes us on a journey—the soul’s journey, to be specific. She reveals the classic pattern of the beloved Hero’s Journey within our temple drama. But she also introduces us to a less familiar pattern, one that I personally believe may be even more important: the Heroine’s Journey. Or, in other words, the inner journey of transformation we are all called to make. She explores how the temple invites us into both journeys, and how their convergence allows for the fullest expression of our divine humanity. The insights in this episode are rich and layered, and truly worth sitting with. Meghan prepared some incredible slides that are included on the YouTube and Substack version. I highly recommend checking them out, as the visuals help bring some of these big ideas into focus and allow us to see the larger picture. Meghan Farner is an author, spiritual mentor, speaker, and founder of Hidden Wisdom, a Christ-centered school of spiritual development devoted to awakening, transformation, embodiment, and ascension. She is the author of Consider Yourself as Eve: A Guide to Spiritual Development for Women (and the Men Who Love Them) and host of the Hidden Wisdom podcast. Through her teachings, mentorship, and retreats, Meghan invites women beyond intellectual understanding into direct divine experience, helping them deepen their relationship with God, reclaim their feminine nature, and embody their divine identity. At the heart of her work is a simple conviction: divine wisdom is not merely something to discover or understand, but something to experience, embody, and ultimately become. Meghan lives in Idaho with her husband and four children. Free Spiritual Reflection Workbook - Discover how you really relate to God - Father and Mother - and your own inner divinity as a woman Meghan’s website. Meghan’s book. Meghan and Cory Jensen’s Temple series: House of Learning Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

What if the temple recommend interview was never meant to be about proving our worthiness, but about preparing our hearts to encounter God? Of all the topics we received questions about while preparing for this project, it became clear that the temple recommend interview was a particular point of tension within our faith community. I felt that Ben’s compassionate spirit, paired with years of serving in this particular part of the vineyard, made him the perfect person to explore these questions with. We begin in the only place I feel we rightly can: the love of God and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Without these realities at the center, questions of worthiness and obedience can easily become entangled with shame, control, and fear. Together, we explore the stories we tell ourselves about worthiness, how much faith is enough faith, and what it might mean to see the temple less as a reward for obedience and more as a sacred, revelatory experience we prepare our hearts to receive. Ben’s hope is that the temple recommend questions, rather than feeling like gatekeeping, might become invitations to take one step closer to knowing the perfect love of God. I hope this conversation offers a little more room for compassion, curiosity, and trust in the God who is always inviting us closer. Ben Behunin is a full-time artist and the writer of 14 books, making his living primarily with his work in pottery. Ben and his wife, Lynnette, raised their two children in the vibrant and colorful downtown area of Salt Lake City, where they still live, just inches away from Ben’s whimsical studio. They invite and encourage everyone to move to the city if you can, but to lift, mend, and love wherever you are. You can learn more about Ben, his work, and his books at www.potterboy.com. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

I chose to begin this season with Mandy’s episode because I felt it so beautifully captured the heart of what I hoped this next chapter would be. The temple was never meant to be the final destination. Rather, it was meant to initiate us into a journey of becoming something more—of encountering our God and discovering our own Divine Nature in ever-deepening ways. Joseph Smith had a dream and vision that each of us might have our own face-to-face encounter with God. That is a radical vision, one I believe in. But the kind of encounter we are called into will require much of us—nothing less than everything. Each of us is invited to ascend that mountain. As Mandy said, there may be some clawing and scrambling up steep cliffs along the way, but the vistas awaiting us are beyond what we can now imagine. Let’s embark on that journey and discover those vistas together. Mandy holds a Master’s degree from Duke Divinity School and an undergraduate degree in Humanities from Brigham Young University. Her deep appreciation for the arts and scripture creates beautiful connections permeating every aspect of her scholarly and personal life. Academically, Mandy explores the rich theological territories of the Divine Feminine and Mary Magdalene, with rigor and spiritual insight. Her ongoing study of Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek, enables her to examine scriptural texts with greater proximity to their original languages and cultural contexts.She shares her extensive learning through classes at Project Illumination, leading educational tour groups across diverse global destinations with Forbidden Adventures, and writing and producing her podcast, “Reflecting Light.” Mandy currently resides in Utah, where she continues her scholarly and educational endeavors, and maintains a modest collection of flamingo memorabilia. Mandy’s website. Mandy’s podcast. Mandy’s tours. Purchase her illustrated retelling of The Hymn of the Pearl here. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

It’s official! Season 2 of Sanctuary launches next week! This project only continues to mean more to me.It’s difficult to express just how important I believe this work is: that together, we come to a much greater understanding of the temple, the priesthood, and what Joseph Smith envisioned for the Saints.That each of us learn how to truly encounter God to greater degrees and, through that encounter, discover our role in this Great Work.This season, we are digging deeper.And my hope is that you’ll dig with us. That somewhere along the way, you’ll uncover your own Pearl of Great Price—a piece of light, truth, and revelation that becomes uniquely yours, and that has the power to transform you.I can’t wait for you to join us. 🕯️ Be sure to subscribe to Sanctuary on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts- whichever platform you prefer! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Joseph Smith’s vision for the saints was that we would each have our own visionary encounter with God and see Him face-to-face. Season 2 of Sanctuary will begin a deeper exploration of what it means to BECOME a temple, and encounter God to greater and greater degrees.(Don’t worry, there will also still be a lot of the same Season 1 style content!)Thank you a million times for all of the support you have shown the show. It means the world to me.Can’t wait to dig deeper with you. Season 2 of Sanctuary coming to you this fall 🤍 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

This is part two of a two part conversation with Dave. If you have not first listened to part one that was released last week, check that out first! I credit Dave, among others, with playing a significant role in igniting my fascination with the temple. About a year and a half ago, I was introduced to his work, and I was immediately captivated by it. His ideas opened up entirely new ways of seeing the temple and became the catalyst for a deep exploration of our sacred ordinances. Since then, I have felt a steady invitation from God to meet Him in the imaginal realms—to explore new dimensions of meaning in both scripture and the temple. Dave’s work has been a meaningful companion on that journey. In this episode, Dave takes us on a fascinating exploration of the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5–7 has long puzzled scholars because this “sermon” does not appear to be a sermon in any conventional sense. The prevailing view is that these chapters are a collection of Christ’s sayings that were remembered and later woven together by the Gospel writer. Dave offers a very different—and deeply intriguing—perspective. An extensive researcher and author of several books (which I’ll link in the show notes), he argues that the Sermon on the Mount, as well as the Book of Mormon, was written by temple initiates for temple initiates. As he guides us through each chapter, he invites us to encounter the mysteries of God in ways that may be entirely new to you. You’re going to want to strap in for this one. It’s dense, rich, and absolutely worth slowing down for. I encourage you to have your scriptures nearby so you can follow along. And honestly, this is one of those conversations that is worth a second listen. There’s so much here to absorb, and Dave offers insights you’ll likely be reflecting on long after the episode ends. This is part 1 of a 2 part episode, so stay tuned for the second half, you won’t want to miss it. Dave Butler is a writer, publisher, and speaker with a passion for scripture, the temple, and storytelling. He is the Editor-in-Chief of Plain and Precious Publishing and the author of more than twenty novels. He is especially known for his work on the Book of Mormon as temple literature. He believes many of its deepest teachings become clearer when read through the lens of temple experience, and he has written several books exploring this idea, including Plain and Precious Things, The Goodness and the Mysteries, and In the Language of Adam. Dave has shared his research through podcasts, conferences, and speaking engagements. He lives in Utah with his wife and children and enjoys playing guitar and banjo. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

I credit Dave, among others, with playing a significant role in igniting my fascination with the temple. About a year and a half ago, I was introduced to his work, and I was immediately captivated by it. His ideas opened up entirely new ways of seeing the temple and became the catalyst for a deep exploration of our sacred ordinances. Since then, I have felt a steady invitation from God to meet Him in the imaginal realms—to explore new dimensions of meaning in both scripture and the temple. Dave’s work has been a meaningful companion on that journey. In this episode, Dave takes us on a fascinating exploration of the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5–7 has long puzzled scholars because this “sermon” does not appear to be a sermon in any conventional sense. The prevailing view is that these chapters are a collection of Christ’s sayings that were remembered and later woven together by the Gospel writer. Dave offers a very different—and deeply intriguing—perspective. An extensive researcher and author of several books (which I’ll link in the show notes), he argues that the Sermon on the Mount, as well as the Book of Mormon, was written by temple initiates for temple initiates. As he guides us through each chapter, he invites us to encounter the mysteries of God in ways that may be entirely new to you. You’re going to want to strap in for this one. It’s dense, rich, and absolutely worth slowing down for. I encourage you to have your scriptures nearby so you can follow along. And honestly, this is one of those conversations that is worth a second listen. There’s so much here to absorb, and Dave offers insights you’ll likely be reflecting on long after the episode ends. This is part 1 of a 2 part episode, so stay tuned for the second half, you won’t want to miss it. Dave Butler is a writer, publisher, and speaker with a passion for scripture, the temple, and storytelling. He is the Editor-in-Chief of Plain and Precious Publishing and the author of more than twenty novels. He is especially known for his work on the Book of Mormon as temple literature. He believes many of its deepest teachings become clearer when read through the lens of temple experience, and he has written several books exploring this idea, including Plain and Precious Things, The Goodness and the Mysteries, and In the Language of Adam. Dave has shared his research through podcasts, conferences, and speaking engagements. He lives in Utah with his wife and children and enjoys playing guitar and banjo. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

This episode has been a long time coming. More than any other topic, our community has asked questions about the Divine Feminine and Heavenly Mother. There is so much to explore, especially in relation to the temple, and I hope this is the first of many conversations on the subject. Many of us feel the absence of the feminine in our stories, symbols, and ordinances. Years ago, I began my own search for the Divine Feminine, and I’ve found that She is far more present than I once realized. Katherine has spent the last decade studying and seeking Heavenly Mother. Her book, The Mother Tree, is one of the best works I’ve read on this topic, and I couldn’t recommend it more. In this episode, Katherine explains that the feminine is often veiled—not missing, but hidden. Discovering her takes faith, patience, and consistent seeking. But she is there for anyone who wants to know her, and as her children, it is our birthright to seek and know our Mother. We discuss temple symbols that may point to the Divine Feminine, Wisdom as a feminine archetype, the Tree of Life, and the connection between Heavenly Mother and nature. We also touch on how the female deity was removed from the ancient Israelite temple tradition, and how Christ—born of both Father and Mother—can help us come to know her more fully. I hope this conversation offers insight, comfort, and an invitation to keep seeking. Kathryn Knight Sonntag is the author of The Mother Tree (Faith Matters Foundation, 2022), winner of The 2022 BIBA Literary Award in Non-Fiction: Religion, The Tree at the Center (BCC Press, 2019), and No Sudden Bright Way (Orison Books, forthcoming). Her poems have appeared in Sugar House Review, Image, Colorado Review, and the anthology Blossom as the Cliffrose (Torrey House Press, 2021), among other places. She works as a landscape architect and serves as the poetry editor for Wayfare. Get The Mother Tree from Amazon. Read more of Kathryn’s work at wayfaremagazine.org. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

As a lover of poetry, I was especially excited to bring Darlene Young on for a conversation about two passions close to my heart. One day, I was struck by the realization that poetry and the temple feel deeply similar to me. Both feel like crossing a threshold — moving from the concrete into the abstract, the mundane into the sacred, mortality into eternity. Darlene has an extraordinary gift for capturing these realities in her poetry and drawing readers into the space where the two meet. In this conversation, we explore the possibility of heaven in the here and now — in ordinary life — as well as how approaching the temple the way we might approach poetry can open us more fully to the gift being offered there. We talk about progression, yearning, and what Eve might teach us about navigating the tension between hungering for more while also learning to trust in our inherent wholeness. Like poetry, the temple can feel deeply open-ended. In a mind-driven culture that often seeks safety in definitive answers, what might it look like to develop the capacity to sit within that openness, allow it to work on us, and begin learning not only with our minds, but also with our bodies and hearts? I have found profound transformative potential in leaning into and embracing the mystery, something I feel the temple continuously invites me into. You can meet and learn from Darlene Young, Thomas McConkie, Kathryn Knight Sonntag, James Goldberg, George Handley, Meghan Farner and more at the Wayfare Festival on July 11 in Heber City Utah! You can learn more and RSVP here, and take 20% off the regular ticket price with code SANCTUARY. Darlene Young is the author of three poetry collections (Count Me In, Here, and Homespun and Angel Feather), two of which have won the Association for Mormon Letters’ awards for poetry. She is a past resident of the New York City arts residency sponsored by the Center for Latter-Day Saint Arts and a recipient of the Smith-Pettit Foundation Award for Outstanding Contribution to Mormon Letters. Darlene teaches writing at Brigham Young University and has served as poetry editor for Dialogue and Segullah journals. Her work has been noted in Best American Essays and nominated for Pushcart Prizes. She lives in South Jordan, Utah. Find more about her at darlene-young.com. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Something I have wrestled with in my own faith journey is how I can simultaneously feel such a strong witness of restored gospel truths and ordinances while also recognizing immense truth and beauty in other religions. In this conversation, Dave shares his journey of developing a deep love and appreciation for all faith traditions, and how embracing other religions has not threatened his own faith but has actually deepened and informed it. Together, we explore ritual as a means of connecting to the divine, forming our identity, and discovering the common threads of ritual across faith traditions—something Dave attributes to God inspiring people “in their own language and symbols.” One temple teaching I love is the invitation to participate in God’s work of circumscribing all truth into one great whole. Joseph Smith was a seeker of all truth and implored us to be the same. This conversation felt like an opportunity to reach wider, embracing more truth and, ultimately, more of humanity within the arms of our faith. Dave offers a vision of rooting ourselves deeply in our faith while also reaching far and wide to gather all of God’s children to the table. I am finding that, rather than separating us from the rest of humanity, temple worship invites us into deeper communion with the whole human family and our shared longing to encounter the divine. David Butler is a speaker, author, and storyteller who helps people see faith and scripture in fresh, hopeful ways. Through teaching, tours, and creative faith projects, he invites others along to discover wonder, grace, and a deeper love for God. Follow Dave on Instagram Listen to Dave’s podcast Don’t Miss This Enroll in Dave’s Holy Envy course Explore Dave’s tours Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

As a feminist and lifelong member of the LDS faith, Deidre brings an important voice to this community. In this episode, she shares her own temple journey, which—like mine—began with challenges but ultimately evolved into something deeply meaningful. She describes the temple as a space that empowers her as a woman and expresses her belief that it holds a vision of who women truly are and who God is inviting them to become. In the second half of the episode, we explore the garment. Deidre has drawn fascinating meaning from it, some of which we discuss here. I highly recommend reading her article for Wayfare, where she delves more deeply into this topic—it was an impactful read for me. She speaks about the garment as a symbol of the veil and suggests that, in wearing it, we are perpetually standing before the veil, declaring, “Here I am,” and communicating to God our openness, trust, and willingness to submit to His will. Step by step, God has drawn me into this holy surrender, transforming me and setting me free in more ways than I can express. Deidre Green is Assistant Professor of Latter-day Saint/Mormon Studies at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. She is the author of multiple books, chapters, and articles related to feminist theology, Kierkegaard, and Mormon Studies. Deidre co-edited with Eric Huntsman Latter-day Saint Perspectives on Atonement (University of Illinois Press, 2024) and authored Jacob: A Brief Theological Introduction. Read Deidre’s Wayfare article on Garments here. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Matt is a strong believer in developing an understanding of the biblical temple to increase our temple literacy, and he has dedicated most of his life’s work to studying this very thing. This episode felt like a continuation of my previous conversation with Josh Matson. Matt helps us explore more deeply the similarities and differences between the modern LDS temple and the ancient Israelite temple. Something I deeply value is the ability to hold space for differences in cultures and religions while recognizing the validity in all of them. I love that this is something Matt truly stands for in his work. Sometimes, as humans, it can make us uncomfortable to observe differences in our core experiences and beliefs. But I believe in a God who reaches all of Their children and wants us all to sit at the table together. My biggest takeaway from this episode was the reminder that expanding my knowledge prepares me to receive revelation—which is ultimately the intention behind the entire temple experience. It is a gift and message received by revelation and is best understood through revelation. If Sanctuary offers you anything, I hope it helps prepare you to experience your own sacred, divine encounter. Matthew J. Grey is a professor of ancient scripture and the coordinator of the ancient Near Eastern studies program at Brigham Young University. He researches the material culture of daily life in Roman Palestine and for over twenty years has been involved in archaeological excavations, research, and publications relating to the world of the New Testament. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

In this conversation, Josh walks us through the pattern of the ancient tabernacle and Solomon’s temple, helping us begin to understand what temple worship and sacrifice looked like for the ancient Israelites. Gaining an understanding of what the temple experience was like anciently has really helped to enrich my relationship with our modern temple. I was struck by both the similarities and the differences in how we relate to the temple today. Josh breaks down the various types of sacrificial rites the Israelites performed and shows how they are more similar to our modern law of sacrifice than we might expect. These were people who faced the same challenge we face today: how to move beyond outward performance and truly offer our whole heart and soul to the Lord. Josh teaches that, in the end, the only thing we can really offer God is our will. God invites us into the experience of sacrifice and repentance—a journey that both transforms and liberates, a journey back to Eden. And all that is needed to begin is our desire Joshua M. Matson is an assistant professor in the Department of Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University, with an appointment to the Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. His published work has focused on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew Bible (particularly the Old Testament Minor Prophets), ancient and modern manuscript studies, and the Jewish context of the Greek New Testament. He is the editor for the book of Haggai for the Society of Biblical Literature Hebrew Bible Critical Edition and is a member of the editorial board for the BYU New Testament Commentary Series. He is a former researcher for the Scripta Qumranica Electronica project and an Orion Center for Dead Sea Scrolls Research Fellow at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. A former Religious Educator with Seminaries and Institutes of Religion, Josh and his wife Erin are the parents of four children and reside in Santaquin, Utah. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

As we began preparing to create the Sanctuary podcast, one of our goals was to offer a resource for those preparing to attend the temple for the first time. We wanted to have a straightforward conversation about what you can expect in the endowment ceremony and provide some context to help you begin understanding the purpose behind these sacred rituals. In this episode, Jasmin and I zoom out and take a bird’s-eye view of the “covenant path.” She helps us begin to see the greater message and pattern that is unfolding, and how the different ordinances connect to one another. I was inspired to have this conversation with Jasmin after hearing a comment she once made: “The endowment covenants are deeper iterations of baptismal covenants.” If you—or someone you love—is preparing to receive their endowment for the first time, this episode is for you. I remember wishing that someone had walked me through what happens in the endowment ceremony, like Jasmin does in this episode, before I went through the temple for the first time. Sometimes, simply knowing what to expect can make something as big and magnificent as the temple experience feel more approachable. At the same time, as Jasmin mentions in this episode, there is also something to be said for leaning into the mystery and surrendering to the experience. Come learn about God’s invitation to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses—and how taking on Christ by emulating Him is the process through which we move toward this eternal destiny. Jasmin Rappleye is a social media content creator, where she focuses on addressing challenging Latter-day Saint beliefs, history, and news. She has a degree from Brigham Young University in Ancient Near Eastern Studies and has a passion for sharing her faith online. She was the former Director of Communications at Scripture Central and is now on the Executive Committee of the Ancient America Foundation and Faith Creators Alliance. Follow Jasmin on Instagram here. Follow Jasmin on Youtube here. Listen to Jasmin’s podcast here. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

This conversation with Matt was one of my favorites. I am endlessly fascinated by ritual. Why have humans, since seemingly the beginning of time, performed rituals? I want to understand the role ritual plays in my life, in my community, and in the world. I have wrestled with it. I have hated it. I have been transformed by it. I have come to deeply love it—and will likely cycle through all of those feelings many times throughout my life. I’m convinced of ritual. I really am. Even more so after this conversation with Matt. In this episode, he walks us through the history of Christian ritual, how our relationship with ritual was profoundly transformed during the Reformation, and what Joseph Smith envisioned for the Saints when establishing something radically different in the 1830s. We explore why people believe that Jesus “did away with the law of Moses,” where that phrase came from, and why so many Christians believe we have “outgrown” ritual. Matt invites us into a new way of understanding the purpose of our rituals, and I left the conversation feeling truly inspired to more fully embrace what we are doing in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Matthew Bowman was appointed the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies in 2019, with a joint appointment in History and Religion. He is a specialist in American religious history, with particular interests in Mormonism, new religious movements, UFOs, and the development of the concept of “religion” in the United States. Most recently, he is the author of Joseph Fielding Smith: A Mormon Theologian and The Abduction of Betty and Barney Hill: UFO Encounters, Civil Rights, and the New Age in America. Finding Matthew’s books here. Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org