Advertise on podcast: Church Staff Book Club

The person on your church staff who drives you crazy might be the one you have the most to learn from. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and why it's worth doing the hard work of understanding difficult coworkers instead of writing them off. Jonathan opens with a confession. When he was younger, he learned from everyone because he assumed every adult had it figured out. Now he sees dysfunction faster, dismisses people quicker, and learns less. He shares the story of a college pastor who burned him badly, and why he still carries lessons from that man today. Jason tells the story of a coworker whose voice alone made him cringe, and what he realized years later about why that person was on staff in the first place. Then there's the time Jonathan got fired because his own personality test flagged him as hard to manage. In this episode we cover: • Why we stop learning from people as we get older, and what it costs us • New research: people aren't leaving bad bosses anymore. They're leaving bad coworkers. • Why it's hard to love what you do when you struggle with who you do it with • Empathy: everyone is carrying something into the meeting you can't see • Is this person always difficult, or are they in a season? • Why people operate the way they do (and the lesson they learned that got them there) • The Bachelor lesson: the person you obsess over is the reason you get voted off • Don't answer a fool according to his folly • You can't fix them, but you can control how you show up • Leading with curiosity instead of frustration • Why almost every work problem is partly a people problem • Culture is built one interaction at a time

There are four ways to handle a difficult person at church: avoid them, change them, cancel them, or understand them. Three of those feel easier. Only one actually works. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off a new book, How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and dig into Chapter 1. Everyone has someone in mind when they hear that title. A volunteer who never shows up on time. A pastor who doesn't respect your ideas. A coworker whose voice alone sets you off. But the first chapter has a twist: you're complicated too. 74% of people think they're easier to work with than average, and the math on that doesn't work. Jonathan shares how his dad helped him see that his frustration with a pushy youth pastor was mostly about his own insecurity, and Jason explains why "understand them" feels so unfair even though it's the only option with a real payoff. In this episode we cover: - Why in church world the difficult person is usually a volunteer, not a coworker - The difference between working with complicated people and staying in a toxic environment - Why church isn't the only way to be in ministry - The five traits people associate most with complicated coworkers - How personality, culture, and values (think DISC) make people seem difficult when they're just different - Judge me by my intentions, I'll judge you by your actions: the unfair scale we all use - Why complicated doesn't mean bad - The question to ask yourself: why does this frustrate me so much? - The four options: avoid, change, cancel, or understand - 95% of people think they're self-aware. Research says 10 to 15% are. - Why your default muscle (avoiding, fighting, or fixing) is costing you the same energy as understanding would

Getting promoted over your friends is one of the hardest transitions on church staff. On Friday they were your peers. On Monday they report to you. In the final episode of our Likable Leader series, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young talk through Chapter 11, Forged in the Fire, and what happens to your leadership when things get hard: conflict, disappointment, transitions, and chaos. Anyone can be likable when the church is healthy and everyone agrees with you. The real test comes when a friend doesn't get the promotion you got, when a volunteer talks trash behind your back, or when everyone in your house is sick and you snap at your team. Jason shares the story of being promoted over his close friend Andrew and how they stayed friends for over a decade. Jonathan explains why leaders have to be willing to be the bad guy, and why half the chaos in ministry is self-inflicted. In this episode we cover: - Passive likability vs. active likability (and why most leaders borrow theirs from the organization) - How to lead former peers without losing the friendship - Why the relationship has to change when you get promoted, and that's okay - Communication, humility, and respect: the three keys to the peer-to-leader transition - Why your team has the right to respond badly, but you don't - The six-month rule for every transition - Why change is really about loss - Don't make your team pay for the chaos around you - Using the Enneagram to spot how you behave when you're unhealthy - Why emotions are signals, not leaders - Self-inflicted chaos and being willing to be the bad guy - The one question to ask your team: what does it feel like to be led by me?

Is having fun at work killing your church's productivity? Short answer: no. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young walk through Chapter 10 of their book Likable Leader and take apart the idea that fun and productivity are enemies. If your church staff culture feels tense, quiet, or overly serious, it's probably not because your team lacks personality. Something is blocking the fun, and there's a good chance it's coming from leadership. People naturally have fun together. Put strangers in a park and eventually someone pulls out a frisbee. So when your church staff or volunteer team isn't enjoying the work, that's a diagnostic sign. Jonathan and Jason break down the three ways leaders unintentionally kill fun, share stories from highly productive teams that played hard, and explain why likable leaders don't manufacture fun. They make room for it. In this episode we cover: - The three ways leaders kill fun: punishing frivolity, fear of looking unproductive, and fear of doing something wrong - Why the "enough of that" line in the sand makes your team afraid to relax - How a highly profitable company played Call of Duty every day at 4:30 - Why a foosball table doesn't mean you have a fun culture (don't confuse an activity with a culture) - Why church leaders should stop policing whether their staff is working hard enough - The myth that work is serious and fun is an escape from work - Why forced icebreakers and awkward team building backfire - The Argentine asado and what it teaches about preparing vs. connecting - The one question every leader should ask: what does it feel like to work with you? - Why some small groups connect and others never do

Why do good church staff quit? It's usually not the paycheck. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young unpack Chapter 9 of their book Likable Leader and get honest about the real reason church employees walk away: leaders who take from their team instead of investing in them. If you lead church staff or volunteers, you've probably felt the fear. You encourage someone, they realize how talented they are, and they leave. So you hold back. But holding back is exactly what pushes people out the door. Jonathan shares the story of an employee he encouraged to take a higher-paying job at another church, and why that employee still wants to keep working with him. In this episode we cover: - The five ways leaders invest in their team: time, encouragement, growth, connection, and wisdom - Why an open-door policy doesn't mean you're approachable - Putting wind in someone's sail vs. putting holes in their boat - Why investing in people and getting results are not enemies (the 23% productivity difference) - How to handle underpaid church staff who need a side hustle - The fear that your staff will surpass you, and why that's the wrong fear - Why growing teams are messy, and why that mess is worth it - What investing in someone actually looks like beyond sending them to a conference #ChurchLeadership #ChurchStaff #ChurchStaffRetention #LikableLeader #PastoralLeadership #MinistryLeadership #ChurchCulture #ChurchStaffTurnover #LeadershipDevelopment #ChurchStaffBookClub

You can have the best content in the room and still lose the room. But the right story, even a short one, can turn a hostile audience into a leaned-in one before you've said anything else of substance. In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 8 of Likable Leader, making the case that storytelling isn't just a communication skill; it's one of the most powerful trust-building tools a leader has. From why Jason opens every emotional intelligence workshop by admitting he was once told he had none, to why announcements at church consistently fail, to the carrot costume that showed up right after the Gaza attack... this one is equal parts practical and honest. In this episode, you'll learn: Why stories build trust faster than facts, credentials, or enthusiasm ever willThe neuroscience behind "neural coupling" and why your team literally simulates the experience you're describing when you tell a story wellHow to make your story about the listener, not yourself... and why that distinction separates good storytellers from forgettable onesWhy telling someone else's story (with permission) can be more powerful than telling your ownThe difference between connecting through story and manipulating through story as well as the warning signs that you've crossed the lineWhy church announcements fail so consistently and what to do insteadHow even an 8-10 second social media video can carry the emotional weight of a full storyPlus Jonathan walks through "Jim's story" as a model for why volunteers open doors on Sunday mornings, and Jason makes the case that your stories give your vision somewhere to live.

Arrogance makes leadership about the leader. Humility makes leadership big enough for other people. And the difference between the two might be the thing your team is waiting for you to figure out. In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 7 of Likable Leader, reframing what humility actually means for leaders and why it has nothing to do with downplaying yourself or deflecting every compliment. From false humility that argues with people trying to encourage you, to ego quietly becoming part of your organization's operating system, this conversation goes places most leadership books won't. In this episode, you'll learn: Why humility and insecurity are not the same thing and how confusing them is quietly shrinking your organizationThe real test of humility: not whether you can admit you're good at something, but what happens inside when someone tells you that you areHow to know if your ego has become part of your church's operating system (hint: if nothing can happen without your approval, it has)Why letting a 60% idea win is sometimes better for your organization than making sure your best idea always gets throughWhat happens in the room when a leader admits "I got that wrong" and why the exhale you'll hear is one of the most powerful moments in team cultureWhy shrinking the vision to match yourself is actually a form of arrogance, not humilityThe parenting analogy that perfectly captures what long-term humble leadership looks likePlus Jonathan reflects on what it cost his team when he spent years fighting to make sure his ideas won, and Jason calls out the soundtrack many leaders play on repeat: "if I'm leading, I need to have the answer."

You don't have to have all the answers. You just have to know the next step and have the courage to say it out loud. In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 6 of Likable Leader, making the case that clarity isn't just a communication skill; it's one of the most profound acts of care a leader can offer their team. Because ambiguity doesn't just slow people down. It exhausts them, puts them in survival mode, and quietly chips away at everything you've built together. In this episode, you'll learn: Why unclear leaders – even kind, charismatic, encouraging ones – are perceived as exhausting to work forHow clarity creates psychological safety and actually lightens your team's mental loadWhy a clear mistake is often better than unclear leadership and how humility makes that workThe difference between leadership clarity with control and leadership clarity without control (and why Andy Stanley's volunteer story is the perfect example)What imprecise spiritual language is actually costing your church and why we use it when we're trying to be likedHow moving faster than your organization can sustain destroys clarity and why stopping temporarily might be the wisest leadership move you make all yearWhy leaders raised in unstable environments often become crisis leaders and what it costs their teams when they stay therePlus Jason gets honest about a resource he rushed to print that came out with missing page numbers, Jonathan reflects on what it felt like to panic on the basketball court when no one knew which basket to shoot for, and both of them make the case that the genius is usually already in the room... your job is to define the problem clearly enough to let it out.

In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 5 of Likable Leader, unpacking what it actually means to support and invest in the people you lead. Jason shares the story of implementing a scheduling change that caused 210 volunteers to quit overnight and what his pastoral team said to him in that moment that changed everything. Jonathan reflects on the difference between leaders who show up to inspect and leaders who show up to encourage, and why your team can feel the difference immediately. In this episode, you'll learn: Why the most overlooked form of support isn't resources... it's your visible presence at the right momentHow to identify what actually motivates each person on your team (growth, community, autonomy, or purpose) and why you can't just ask themWhy the leaders who get promoted are often the worst candidates for leadership and how to navigate that shift yourselfHow to show your team real movement toward vision, not just activity that looks like progressWhy acknowledging lost yardage is just as important as celebrating wins and what happens when you don'tThe "blow it up" exercise that helps you reset your vision when you've been running on autopilotWhy over-relying on your most committed volunteers is a quiet form of lazy leadershipPlus Jason makes the case that celebration through the lens of vision (not the lens of the leader) is one of the most powerful fuels a team can have, and Jonathan shares why sometimes the most supportive thing you can do is just show up.

Every church says they have a vision. Very few have one their team can actually act on. And when vision is vague, people don't just drift... they fill in the gaps with their own. In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 4 of Likable Leader, unpacking what makes a vision compelling enough that people actually want to give their lives to it, not just show up and do their jobs. From ego-driven vision that quietly uses people to build a platform, to fake work that simulates progress without actually moving anything forward, this episode gets honest about why so many church leaders struggle to cast vision that sticks. In this episode, you'll learn: Why vague mission statements like "love God, love people" leave your team filling in the gaps with their own vision and why that's a leadership problem, not a people problemThe subtle but destructive difference between a vision for the church and a vision about the leaderWhy staff don't resent a leader's success... they resent feeling used to create itHow uncertainty around vision is one of the most overlooked accelerators of church staff burnoutWhat "fake work" is, why it's everywhere in church world, and how to stop creating itWhy you don't have to pioneer the church's overall vision but you do have to be a participant in itThe case for margin: why giving your team white space isn't laziness, it's one of the greatest gifts a leader can givePlus Jonathan reflects on what it looks like when a church's support staff and senior pastor are clearly operating from two completely different visions, and Jason makes the case that vision leaks... and so does meaning.

Most leaders think they're good listeners. Most of them are wrong. And the gap between what you intend to communicate and what your team actually hears might be quietly costing you more followership than you realize. In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 3 of Likable Leader, unpacking why the most likable leaders aren't necessarily the best speakers... they're the best listeners. From the airport PA system trick to the noise that's already drowning out your message, this one gets refreshingly practical about what great communication actually looks like in a church context. In this episode, you'll learn: Why leaders often have a communication problem, not a people problem and how to tell the differenceThe listening statistics that should humble every church leader (only 8% of mid-level leaders are rated as good listeners by their teams)Six practical ways to actively listen that go way beyond just being quiet while someone else talksHow "noise" – organizational chaos, staff transitions, conflict, emotional departures – distorts everything you say and how to navigate itWhy your casual comments and facial expressions communicate just as loudly as your wordsThe three-announcement rule from airport PA systems and why it applies directly to how you lead changeWhy slow leaders can actually calm an anxious team and how to know when to adjust your speed limitPlus Jonathan gets honest about how he's had to learn to repeat back what his wife says just to realize he misunderstood her, and Jason reflects on what changed in his leadership when he stopped rushing to judgment and started assuming people are doing the best they can with what they're carrying.

Your team isn't afraid of your feedback. They're afraid of not knowing which version of you is going to show up today. In this episode, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of Likable Leader and reframe what integrity actually means for leaders. Forget the moral definition for a moment. The kind of integrity that builds followership is about consistency. Predictability. Being the same person on a hard Tuesday as you are on a great Sunday. And it turns out, that kind of integrity might be the greatest gift you can give your team. In this episode, you'll learn: Why "predictable" is actually one of the highest compliments a leader can receiveHow unpredictability, not workload, is one of the biggest hidden accelerators of team burnoutThe difference between being predictably likable and predictably unlikable and the false beliefs that drive eachWhy larger organizations and growing churches are especially vulnerable to leaders becoming callous without realizing itHow your values create a filter for every decision you make and why the hierarchy matters more than the listFour questions to ask yourself before making any leadership decisionWhy your employees, not your mentor or spouse, are actually the least likely to tell you who you really arePlus Jason gets candid about some of the most arrogant leaders he's encountered in 28 years of church work, Jonathan reflects on what it looks like when churches use "their reward is in heaven" as an excuse not to show appreciation, and both of them make the case that the closer you get to the center of a church, the kinder it should feel... not the opposite.

Nobody wants to admit they want to be liked. But what if likability isn't about feeding your ego... What if it's about whether people actually want to follow you? Welcome to Season 4 of the Church Staff Book Club. Jonathan Malm and Jason Young are diving into their own book, Likable Leader, and right out of the gate they're wrestling with the title itself. Because "likable" sounds like something a people-pleaser cares about, not a serious leader. Except the research says otherwise. And so does every volunteer who ever quietly stopped showing up. In this episode, you'll learn: Why likability has nothing to do with personality type and everything to do with consistent behaviorThe critical difference between being nice and being kind as well as why confusing them is quietly killing your team cultureHow the strongest leaders use kindness while holding people accountableWhy the banking metaphor is the most honest picture of how trust actually works in leadershipWhat "honor culture" gets wrong and why you shouldn't have to manufacture what should happen naturallyWhy people stay with leaders not because of competence but because of how they're consistently treated7 simple questions to take inventory of your own likability right nowPlus Jonathan shares what it was like watching his brother lead a worship team with zero sugarcoating and total loyalty from everyone on it, why the sandwich feedback method is eroding trust faster than you think, and why being a chameleon leader is the fastest way to lose your kids.

We talk a lot about learning from failure. But what about success? It might be quietly doing more damage than you think. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. The big idea: success and failure don't belong in isolation, and when we treat them that way, both become dangerous. 🎧 What We Cover in This Episode: Why success can deceive you just as much as failure can discourage youThe danger of "I am a success" vs. "I am a failure" and why both are wrongWhy the most successful people are sometimes the worst ones to write the bookHow repeated success quietly causes you to misalign your values and your whyWhy churches struggle to define success and how failure helps realign itThe importance of doing an autopsy on your wins, not just your lossesJonathan's story: the tuxedo skit that nobody learned anything fromJason's honest confession: falling into the identity trap with book reviewsTwo practical tools to evaluate success and failure: Five Whys and KaizenThe quarterly journal idea for tracking your team's progress like a scoreboard📖 We're Reading: How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell Follow along chapter by chapter with us! 💬 Key Quotes from This Episode: "I am a success is just as dangerous as I am a failure." "Success can inflate your ego. Failure attacks it. How do you live inside both?" A bad day doesn't make you a bad leader." 🛠 Free Tools Coming: Jonathan and Jason are building individual and team debriefing tools based on this conversation. Download them at churchstaffbookclub.com 🔗 Connect & Subscribe: Follow us on social media and join the conversation Subscribe so you never miss a chapter Grab How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell and read along with us

Every leader fails. The question isn't whether it'll happen... it's what you do with it when it does. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off their third book: How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. Chapter 1 reframes the way leaders think about failure. From something to avoid at all costs to something that, when handled well, actually pays you back. 🎧 What We Cover in This Episode: Why most people treat failure as final and why that's costing themThe difference between you failing and being a failureWhy avoiding failure has a cost too (and we rarely count it)Small risks vs. big risks: the fencing approach to leadershipJason's story: 210 volunteers quit in one day and what happened nextWhy school is actually the safest place to fail (and we've made it terrifying)Planning for failure: anti-faith or just smart leadership?What your first reaction to failure reveals vs. what you do nextThe Moses principle: why God rarely gives you the full picture up front📖 We're Reading: How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. 💬 Key Quotes from This Episode: "You are not a failure. That thing you did might have failed, but that's not your identity." "Your first reaction to failure is the human part of you. What you do next is the leadership part." "If we don't take risks, things naturally decline." 🔗 Connect & Subscribe: Follow us on social media and join the conversation Subscribe so you never miss a chapter Grab How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell and read along with us