Advertise on podcast: In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

What if the behaviors we label as “maladaptive” are actually brilliant strategies for survival? And what if the most powerful thing a therapist can offer isn't a technique, but the experience of being genuinely cared for? In this thought-provoking episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with trauma therapist, somatics practitioner, researcher, and activist Mariah Rooney to explore the intersection of trauma, healing, justice, and the transformative power of human connection. Together, Janina and Mariah challenge some of the mental health field's most deeply held assumptions—from the limitations of evidence-based treatments and rigid therapeutic protocols to the ways diagnostic labels can pathologize the very adaptations that helped people survive. Drawing on their clinical experiences, they explore why genuine warmth, attunement, and even delight in a client can be profoundly healing, and why progress isn't always something that can be measured on a checklist. Their conversation also moves beyond the therapy room, examining how systemic injustice, institutional practices, and unsafe environments shape trauma responses. They question what it really means to be regulated when hypervigilance may be necessary for survival, and why therapists must understand the realities clients return to after each session. This episode is a compelling invitation to rethink trauma treatment, not simply as a process of changing behaviors or reducing symptoms, but as an opportunity to honor survival, restore connection, and create conditions for healing both individually and collectively. Key Takeaways: Survival strategies aren't necessarily symptoms of dysfunctionThe therapeutic relationship is more than a vehicle for treatmentEvidence-based doesn't always mean effective for everyoneHealing doesn't always look like measurable progressEven positive change can feel threateningTrauma treatment cannot be separated from social contextHealing must extend beyond the therapy room About Mariah Rooney Mariah Rooney, MSW, LCSW (they/she) is a trauma therapist, educator, and consultant working at the nexus of trauma, healing justice, and transformative change. Mariah has had academic appointments at Winona State University, the University of St. Thomas, and The New School for Social Research, and brings a deep grounding in clinical practice and critical, feminist, and liberatory pedagogies. Their clinical work specializes in complex trauma, dissociation, and identity development across the lifespan, with a focus on 2SLGBTQIA+ and gender-diverse communities.Their research and teaching emphasize body-centered approaches to trauma care, integrating somatic, relational, and justice-oriented frameworks. Mariah is the founder of Trauma Informed Weight Lifting, a program of the Center for Trauma and Embodiment, which expands access to embodied healing through inclusive, community-based strength training. They are the host of MOVD, the podcast and their work is animated by a commitment to collective liberation, dignity-centered care, and the belief that healing is both personal and political. Website: https://mariahrooney.com/ Founder of Trauma Informed Weight Lifting https://www.tiwl.org/ MOVD Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/movdpodcast

What if, instead of trying to silence our inner critic, push away painful feelings, or overcome distress, we simply became curious about what those experiences are trying to tell us? In this special episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina offers something a little different—a guided meditation inviting listeners to slow down, turn inward, and gently explore the many parts of themselves. Drawing on her compassionate, parts-based approach to trauma healing, Janina guides us in noticing our thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations as communications from different parts of ourselves. As we begin to recognize how these parts interact—how a critical thought might trigger shame, or how feelings of hopelessness might awaken another part that wants to fight back—we can start to understand our internal experiences with greater curiosity and less judgment. Rather than trying to change or silence these parts, Janina invites us to make room for them, recognizing that even our most distressed or critical parts have stories to tell and deserve to be heard. This meditation is a small gift from Janina to her listeners, an opportunity to pause, reconnect with yourself, and practice meeting all your parts with kindness and compassion. We hope you'll return to it whenever you need a moment of understanding, connection, or gentle self-reflection.

What happens when talking about our pain keeps us circling the same story instead of helping us move through it? In this engaging episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinical psychologist and psychodrama expert Dr. Tian Dayton to explore the power of experiential therapy—and why sometimes healing requires more than talking about what happened. Tian introduces some of psychodrama’s most powerful techniques, including role reversal, doubling, and the empty chair, and explains how they can help clients move from talking about a relationship or experience to engaging with it in the present moment. By stepping into another perspective, clients may discover feelings, insights, and possibilities that weren’t accessible through the familiar story alone. Janina and Tian explore the difference between repeatedly retelling painful experiences and revisiting them within a safe, supported therapeutic environment. Rather than remaining trapped in the role we have always occupied, experiential work can interrupt old narratives, bring the body into therapy, and allow emotions such as grief or anger to be felt and move through us. Their conversation also explores the healing potential of groups, co-regulation, grief work, and the simple but powerful experience of encountering another person rather than remaining alone with our internal world. Tian shares how psychodrama and sociometry can create connection through shared experience, allowing group members to become therapeutic resources for one another. Ultimately, Janina and Tian arrive at something larger than any one therapeutic method: healing is not a destination. We don’t finish our healing once and for all, and we don’t need to wait until some future moment to finally be “there.” Growth happens through experience, relationship, practice, and learning to return again and again to the present moment. Key Takeaways: Telling the story isn’t always the same as healing from itPsychodrama helps clients move from talking about an experience to engaging with itRole reversal can open perspectives that talking alone may not reachThe body and emotions need a place in therapyGroups can become powerful sources of connection and co-regulationExperiential work can be especially powerful for grief and unresolved relationshipsHealing isn’t something we finish—it’s an ongoing processSometimes the most powerful therapeutic interventions are also the simplestAbout Tian Dayton Dr. Tian Dayton is a clinical psychologist, internationally recognized expert in psychodrama, trauma, addiction, and Adult Children of Alcoholics, and the author of numerous books on trauma, recovery, relationships, and experiential therapy. A board-certified trainer in psychodrama, Tian has spent decades bringing psychodrama, sociometry, and experiential approaches into trauma and addiction treatment. She taught psychodrama at New York University for eight years and has trained generations of clinicians in methods that engage not only the thinking mind, but the body, emotions, relationships, and lived experience. Her work includes the development of Relational Trauma Repair (RTR), an experiential model integrating psychodrama and sociometry with contemporary understandings of trauma and relational healing. Tian’s Website: https://www.tiandayton.com/ Books by Tian Dayton: Growing up with Addiction: How Adult Children of Addicts Can Heal Family Trauma, C-PTSD, and Codependency https://www.amazon.com/dp/1785046497?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback# Other books can be viewed at author’s website: https://relationaltraumarepair.com/endorsements/ The Living Stage: A Step-by-Step Guide to Psychodrama, Sociometry and Experiential Group TherapySociometrics: Embodied, Experiential Processes for Healing Trauma and AddictionThe ACoA Trauma SyndromeEmotional SobrietyTrauma and AddictionThe Soulful Journey of RecoveryTreating Adult Children of Relational Trauma

What if the relationships we long for most are also the ones that activate our deepest protective patterns? In this warm and insightful episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with attachment expert and longtime Somatic Experiencing trainer Diane Poole Heller to explore how our earliest relationships shape the way we connect, protect ourselves, and respond to intimacy throughout our lives. Together, they discuss why healing trauma doesn’t automatically heal attachment wounds—and why understanding attachment intellectually is very different from changing the patterns held in the body. Diane explains how early experiences can show up as the impulse to withdraw, cling, distrust, or even push away the very love and connection we desperately want. Most importantly, their conversation offers a hopeful message: secure attachment can be learned. Through awareness, co-regulation, corrective experiences, and practice, we can gradually build a greater capacity for intimacy, repair, trust, and receiving care. Drawing from clinical work as well as her own experience learning to receive love rather than deflect it, Diane brings attachment theory out of the abstract and into the lived, embodied moments where relationships actually happen. As she and Janina explore, healing isn't simply about understanding our patterns—it's about practicing something different until our nervous system begins to believe it too. Attachment patterns aren’t fixed overnight Trauma healing and attachment healing aren’t necessarily the same thing Our relationship reactions often have a history Sometimes we want love but can’t comfortably receive it Attachment work has to involve the body Small doses of connection can create meaningful change Secure attachment affects more than romantic relationships About Diane Poole Heller As a therapist and practitioner in the field of attachment theory and trauma resolution, my driving passion and life’s mission have been dedicated to helping people understand how to create deep and lasting relationships by strengthening secure attachment skills, repairing attachment wounds and supporting resilience and post-traumatic growth. I’ve spent over 30 years discovering, practicing and teaching new tools, approaches and strategies that alleviate suffering and foster healing—from corrective exercises that resolve trauma to complete frameworks and training that “repatterns” insecure attachment adaptations. I’ve helped clients diminish the intensity of their symptoms, shift their behaviors, enhance resilience and often recover completely—and I’ve spent decades guiding and training other therapists in this work. And after working with thousands of clients and therapists worldwide, I am convinced that not only do we all have the potential and capability to heal and build resilience—but that we are in fact innately designed to do so! Diane’s Website: https://traumasolutions.com/ Diane’s Books: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Attachment-Lasting-Intimate-Relationships-ebook/dp/B07FDQW9QW/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JQLuItjncm1sxFoZr72I-wvaohXniRyrUBUeVaz2kg0.Tr5UjJKANzRmsqqrMTkr5lTovUPJAwpc76PS87k9Dtc&dib_tag=se&qid=1785967976&refinements=p_27%3ADiane+Poole+Heller+Ph.D.&s=books&sr=1-3 HEALING YOUR ATTACHMENT WOUNDS: How To Create Deep And Lasting Intimate Relationships https://www.amazon.com/dp/1622038738?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Free Attachment Quiz on their website Take it multiple times Great resource

What happens when the person we most want to feel safe with is also the person who triggers our deepest wounds? In this insightful episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with pioneering couples therapist Dr. Ellyn Bader to explore why intimate relationships can so easily activate old wounds—and why those same relationships can also become powerful opportunities for growth. Together, they unpack how childhood trauma, fear of intimacy, and unresolved disappointments can keep couples trapped in the same conflicts, even when both partners desperately want connection. Ellyn shares how her Developmental Model of Couples Therapy helps partners move beyond blame, understand what each person brings to the relationship, and learn to stay connected without abandoning themselves. Janina and Ellyn also explore what therapists need to understand about working with couples, why individual therapists should be careful about taking sides, and how collaboration between couples and trauma therapists can open new pathways toward healing. This episode offers a compassionate and nuanced look at relationships not simply as places where our wounds are activated, but as places where growth, differentiation, and healing can become possible. Trauma can make intimacy feel threatening. People may deeply desire closeness while simultaneously becoming fearful or dysregulated when it occurs. Repeated conflicts often point to something deeper. Unresolved trauma, early disappointments, and longstanding coping patterns can keep couples trapped in the same cycles. Disillusionment can become an opportunity for growth. Learning to navigate disappointment and difference can help partners develop greater maturity and intimacy. Healthy relationships require differentiation. Each partner must learn to express their own needs and values without abandoning themselves or expecting the other person to provide perfect safety. Couples therapists need to actively interrupt destructive patterns. Simply allowing partners to reenact their conflicts in therapy rarely creates meaningful change. Collaboration between couples and trauma therapists matters. Working together can help clinicians address both individual trauma and the relational patterns it influences. About Ellyn Bader Dr. Ellyn Bader is a psychotherapist, co-founder of The Couples Institute®, and co-creator of the Developmental Model of Couples Therapy. A pioneer in the field of couples therapy, she has spent more than four decades advancing approaches that help partners grow, change, and stay connected. The Developmental Model, now used by therapists in more than 74 countries, is widely taught in graduate programs and featured in her award-winning textbook, In Quest of the Mythical Mate. She is also the co-author of Tell Me No Lies with her husband and longtime collaborator, Dr. Peter Pearson. Through The Couples Institute®, Ellyn continues to train therapists around the world in the art and practice of effective couples therapy. Upcoming Conference: 2026 Couples Conference - October 8-10, 2026 https://www.amazon.com/portal/customer-reviews/srp/-/R268UI916X5O1Z/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8 Training: Couples Institute Training Program https://www.couplesinstitute.com/developmentalmodeltraining-wl/ Books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001KIVSSY?ccs_id=df3d1f88-c175-4725-9788-72a7706dadbe

In this reflective episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with pioneering trauma clinician, researcher, and author Dr. Christine Courtois to look back on the evolution of trauma treatment—and the work that still lies ahead. From the early days when childhood trauma and dissociation were largely dismissed by the mental health field, Janina and Christine revisit the groundbreaking ideas that transformed psychotherapy, including Courtois's enduring reminder that "remembering is not recovering." Together, they explore why healing requires far more than uncovering memories. Their conversation courageously examines one of the profession's least-discussed topics: sexual boundary violations by therapists. Drawing from painful firsthand experiences as a clinical director, Courtois reflects on how these violations occur, why even skilled clinicians can become vulnerable, and why openness, supervision, and ongoing self-awareness are essential to protecting both therapists and clients. Along the way, Janina and Christine discuss the importance of phase-oriented treatment, the growing integration of neuroscience and somatic therapies into trauma care, the challenges of treating dissociation, and the urgent need for trauma-informed education within graduate training programs. Their dialogue is both a tribute to how far the field has come and a passionate call to continue improving how clinicians understand and respond to complex trauma. Healing is more than remembering Boundaries protect healing Stabilization is not a delay—it is treatment Trauma therapy is relational Graduate programs devote far too little attention to trauma and dissociation Dissociation deserves greater recognition Neuroscience and somatic approaches are reshaping the field The field of trauma has made remarkable progress—but the work continues Christine A. Courtois, PhD, ABPP, a board-certified counseling psychologist, retired from 35 years of clinical practice in Washington, DC, is now a licensed psychologist, author and consultant/trainer on trauma psychology and treatment in Lewes, Delaware. She is known for her work on adult survivors of incest and other developmental trauma in childhood and complex trauma and its treatment.  Dr. Courtois has published numerous chapters and journal articles as well as a dozen books. Sexual Boundary Violations in Psychotherapy co-edited with Drs. Lu Steinberg and Judie Alpert and the revised edition of Treating Complex Traumatic Stress Disorders, co-edited with Dr. Julian Ford were published in 2020. The revised edition of Treatment of Complex Trauma: A Sequenced, Relationship-Based Approach co-authored with Dr. Ford, will be published later this year. In addition to other professional books, she has written a consumer book entitled It’s Not You, It’s What Happened to You. Dr. Christine Courtois Books Healing the Incest Wound: Adult Survivors in Therapy (Norton Professional Books) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393705471?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Sexual Boundary Violations in Psychotherapy: Facing Therapist Indiscretions, Transgressions, and Misconduct by Arlene Lu Steinberg (Editor), Judith L. Alpert (Editor), Christine Courtois (Editor) https://www.amazon.com/dp/143383460X?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Treatment of Complex Trauma: A Sequenced, Relationship-Based Approach by Christine A. Courtois (Author), Julian D. Ford (Author), John Briere (Foreword) https://www.amazon.com/dp/1462506585?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback

A thoughtful exploration of neurodivergence, creativity, and the transformative power of seeing clients not as problems to solve, but as people whose worlds are worth entering. In this engaging and deeply insightful conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with drama therapist and neurodivergence specialist Liz McDonough to explore what becomes possible when therapists let go of assumptions and learn to follow the client’s lead. Drawing on nearly two decades of experience working with autistic and neurodivergent children, teens, and young adults, Liz shares how play, creativity, special interests, improvisation, and even puppets can become powerful pathways to connection, emotional expression, and healing. Together, Janina and Liz challenge traditional ideas about communication, emotional processing, and therapy itself. They discuss why many neurodivergent clients struggle in conventional talk therapy, how therapists can move beyond agendas and expectations, and why curiosity is often more important than expertise. Through stories of puppet characters, improv groups, video games, and beloved fictional worlds, Liz demonstrates how meaningful therapeutic work happens when clinicians enter the client’s world rather than asking the client to enter theirs. This conversation is a reminder that healing does not always begin with words. Sometimes it begins with a shared interest, a playful moment, or the willingness to see communication in forms we might otherwise overlook. Key Takeaways: Meet clients where they areSpecial interests are therapeutic resourcesCommunication is bigger than wordsPlay creates safetyWhat looks like resistance may be communicationGrowth happens through co-creation, not correctionCuriosity is more valuable than certainty www.lizmft.com Liz McDonough, LMFT, is a therapist, drama therapist, educator, consultant, and speaker specializing in supporting neurodivergent individuals and the professionals who work with them. Drawing on a unique background that bridges a theatrical career in New York with more than two decades as a licensed marriage and family therapist, Liz is known for her creative, strengths-based approach to helping neurodivergent people thrive in school, the workplace, and their communities. A late-diagnosed ADHDer herself, Liz combines lived experience with clinical expertise, bringing warmth, humor, and practical insight to her teaching and consulting. She has presented nationally at conferences including the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium and the AAMFT Systemic Therapy Conference, and works with educators, therapists, and organizations to create more accessible, inclusive, and joyful environments. Liz holds a B.A. in Drama from NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and a Master's degree in Counseling Psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies. She has taught at the graduate level, supervised associate therapists toward licensure, and provides neurodiversity consultation internationally. Liz lives in Durham, North Carolina, where she's often singing, hiking, or dreaming up her next creative idea—sometimes all at once.

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with pioneering neuroscientist Sue Carter, whose groundbreaking work has transformed how we understand attachment, bonding, and the biology of human connection. Best known for her decades of research on oxytocin, Sue reflects on the scientific journey that led her from early studies of attachment and imprinting to uncovering the profound role hormones play in shaping relationships, caregiving, stress regulation, and resilience. Together, Janina and Sue explore how our earliest relational experiences are not only psychological but deeply biological. Sue shares the surprising story of how her own experience of childbirth sparked questions that changed the trajectory of her career, leading to discoveries about oxytocin’s influence on stress, social bonding, and even trauma. Their conversation bridges neuroscience and clinical practice, illuminating how the body’s caregiving systems shape our capacity for connection throughout life. Attachment is both emotional and biological Oxytocin is far more than the “love hormone” The body changes profoundly through caregiving Trauma affects relational biology Bonding is not limited to biology alone Healing requires understanding the body, not just the mind C. Sue Carter, PhD, is the Rudy Professor Emerita of Biology and Director Emerita of the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University. A pioneering researcher in the biology of attachment and social connection, her work has transformed our understanding of the hormones and neurobiological systems that shape bonding, caregiving, stress regulation, and human relationships. Through her groundbreaking studies of the socially monogamous prairie vole, Dr. Carter was the first to identify the physiological foundations of pair bonding and monogamy, helping to establish the scientific basis for contemporary research on oxytocin, vasopressin, and the biology of love and attachment. Her work continues to influence the fields of neuroscience, psychology, psychiatry, and trauma treatment. https://kinseyinstitute.org/about/staff/carter-c-sue.html

In this powerful conversation, Janina Fisher is joined by therapists, educators, and longtime collaborators Debra Chatman-Finley and Gliceria Pérez to explore the intersection of trauma, race, identity, and clinical practice. Reflecting on a collaboration that began during the upheaval of 2020, the three discuss how experiences of racism, discrimination, and systemic inequity create ongoing conditions of threat that can profoundly shape the nervous system. Drawing parallels between chronic childhood trauma and the hypervigilance many Black and Brown individuals navigate every day, they examine how trauma is often rooted not only in discrete events but in environments where safety can never be assumed. Together, they explore implicit bias in psychotherapy, the importance of therapists doing their own self-reflective work, and the ways race and culture are always present in the therapy room—even when they go unspoken. With honesty, warmth, and mutual respect, this conversation offers an invitation to move beyond good intentions toward deeper awareness, curiosity, and genuine connection. Whether you're a clinician, student, or someone seeking to better understand the impact of race on lived experience, this episode offers valuable insights into what it means to create safety, build trust, and engage in meaningful conversations across difference. Key Takeaways Trauma can be an ongoing condition, not just a single eventLiving under chronic threat changes the nervous systemImplicit bias affects every therapist"Doing the work" starts with self-reflectionRace is always in the roomSafety cannot be assumedCuriosity matters more than perfectionHonest conversations create connectionAbout the Guests Debra Chatman-Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ, and a former Adjunct Professor at New York University, where she taught Racial and Social Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. She previously served as Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency and is a graduate and former Associate Faculty of The Multicultural Family Institute. Trained in EMDR, Brainspotting, and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST), with a Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute, Debra has devoted her practice to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma—particularly on African American women and their parenting. She co-facilitates a monthly BIPOC Safety, Belonging and Dignity Gathering for The Academy of Therapy Wisdom, provides clinical consultation for BIPOC clinicians, and has led numerous workshops on racism, dissociation, implicit bias, and racial trauma in clinical practice. Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual/bicultural therapist in private practice in New Jersey, working passionately with BIPOC and other marginalized communities from a social justice perspective. She is trained in EMDR, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy (Levels One and Two), and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST), completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at the Justice Resource Institute, and is currently pursuing Brainspotting certification. A former Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program and Adjunct Faculty at NYU's Silver School of Social Work, Gliceria currently runs two support groups for Women of Color, co-facilitates the monthly BIPOC Safety, Belonging, and Dignity Gathering for the Academy of Therapy Wisdom, and co-leads the Awesome Clinicians of Color Book Club. Together, Debra and Gliceria are developing a podcast and writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color. Janina's LinksWebsite: https://janinafisher.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjaninafisher/?hl=en-gbNew book: https://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Our-Fragmented-Selves-Therapists/dp/1683738918

In this candid and thought-provoking episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with somatic therapist, educator, and founder of The Embody Lab, Dr. Scott Lyons, for a wide-ranging conversation about trauma, embodiment, and what it means to be fully alive. Together, they reflect on the personal experiences that shaped their paths into trauma work, exploring how helping others can sometimes begin as a survival strategy of its own. Along the way, they unpack the nuanced differences between trauma and difficult life experiences, discuss the impact of growing up with dysregulated caregivers, and examine how our nervous systems learn to adapt in order to survive. Janina and Scott also trace the evolution of somatic trauma therapy—from the early days when body-based approaches were often dismissed to the growing recognition that healing must involve more than insight alone. They explore why no single method can address the complexity of trauma, the importance of meeting each person as an individual rather than applying a formula, and how collaboration across disciplines is shaping the future of trauma treatment. Blending humor, personal stories, and decades of clinical wisdom, this episode is a powerful reminder that healing is not about becoming someone new—it is about reconnecting with the parts of ourselves that had to be hidden in order to survive. Dr. Scott Lyons is an international keynote speaker, serial entrepreneur, licensed Clinical Psychologist, and Doctor of Osteopathy (Spain). He is the Founder and CEO of The Embody Lab, the world’s largest online learning platform for body-based trauma therapies, reaching more than two million practitioners across 30+ countries. A recognized innovator in transformative wellness, Dr. Lyons is the creator of Somatic Stress ReleaseTM, founder of Primal Reset Supplements, and architect of more than 40 advanced professional trainings spanning trauma therapy, embodied leadership, integrative health, and human performance. His work integrates neuroscience, somatics, and executive development — earning him recognition from Oprah Daily as “The Beyoncé of Trauma Therapy.” Beyond his clinical and educational leadership, Dr. Lyons serves as an executive coach and wellness consultant to founders, CEOs, and high-level leaders, bringing a rare blend of psychological depth, physiological precision, and strategic vision. He is the bestselling author of Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and Others and host of The Gently Used Human and Hot Seat Therapy, his YouTube series exploring transformation in real time. https://www.drscottlyons.com/ https://theembodylab.com/ Book:  Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and Others Key Takeaways 1. Trauma and adversity are not always the same thing 2. Many helping professionals are drawn to healing through their own survival adaptations 3. Somatics is about more than trauma 4. There is no single "right" trauma therapy 5. Trauma often involves adapting away from our authentic selves 6. The future of trauma treatment is collaboration 7. Accessibility matters 8. Healing begins when we are met as we truly are

In this fascinating episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina Fisher sits down with psychiatrist and neuroscientist Fredric Schiffer to explore a provocative question: can trauma be understood as a dialogue between two distinct “minds” within the same brain? Drawing from decades of clinical work and neuroscience research, Schiffer shares how his pioneering “dual-brain psychology” emerged from split-brain studies and his observations that trauma survivors often seem to shift between profoundly different states of self. Together, he and Janina examine how one hemisphere may carry the emotional imprint of trauma while the other holds a more grounded, resilient perspective—offering a compelling framework for understanding internal conflict, fear, and healing. Their conversation bridges neuroscience and psychotherapy, touching on the lasting effects of traumatic memory, why insight alone often cannot override fear, and how healing may happen when the healthier parts of the self can connect compassionately with the wounded parts. This episode offers a rich exploration of the brain’s adaptability and the deeply relational process of trauma recovery. Trauma can create sharply different self-states The two hemispheres of the brain may process emotional experience differently Healing is not just cognitive—it is experiential A healthier part of the self can support the traumatized part  Neuroscience can validate lived experience. Dr. Schiffer is an assistant professor of psychiatry, part-time, at Harvard Medical School and research associate at McLean Hospital. He has developed a theory of psychology that is the subject of his recent book Goodbye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, & PTSD: The Life-Changing Science of Dual Brain Psychology. The theory has been studied extensively at Harvard and its clinical applications have been articulated in multiple peer-reviewed publications. Dr. Schiffer is also the Founder and CEO of MindLight, LLC which has received 2 SBIR grants from the US National Institute on Drug Abuse that were give an FDA Breakthrough Designation for the treatment of opioid addiction. He has a private practice of psychiatry in Newton, Massachusetts, USA https://dualbrainpsychology.com/ Books: Of Two Minds https://www.amazon.com/Two-Minds-Revolutionary-Dual-Brain-Psychology-ebook/dp/B001PO6CMK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=211HASIEUKUKI&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xV8hnS3a19gKRei-jFVGJsij5GooeoQMnr847BIMRGCj6DDirhPGo1B_Rp4M6JEPkUxU_edZMfoRYxjd8rXXVI1HRnvgRfTFc5EylUFxyC-vf5KnteegxS6T4Xn1-seSKtksvSw7Q85UZ8xCzRGN2g.lTn1SDp4auJQ9Zp_6aXZHyoG8ih8BTx40F6Yc__LWjk&dib_tag=se&keywords=frederic+Schiffer&qid=1778621398&sprefix=frederic+schiffer%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1 Good-Bye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, and PTSD https://dualbrainpsychology.com/good-bye-anxiety-depression-addiction-ptsd-the-life-changing-science-of-dual-brain-psychology Dr. Schiffer’s Papers: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1aJk1vEbT1cMpcGF1sBgftrIoNwwDNvLT

In this timely and thought-provoking conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with somatic therapist, activist, author, and social change leader Staci Haines to explore the profound relationship between personal healing and collective transformation. Drawing on more than three decades of work at the intersection of trauma recovery and social justice, Staci challenges the idea that trauma exists only within individuals. Instead, she invites us to consider how systems of oppression, violence, inequality, and disconnection shape both our nervous systems and our societies—and why healing must address both. Together, Janina and Staci discuss what it means to pursue healing in a world that often feels unsafe, how trauma lives not only in events but in environments, and why resilience grows through connection, community, and shared purpose. They reflect on the emotional toll of living in turbulent times, the importance of finding beauty and “micro-joys” amid uncertainty, and the role of embodied healing in helping us stay engaged rather than overwhelmed. From childhood trauma and social movements to climate anxiety, community care, and intergenerational hope, this conversation offers a powerful vision of healing that extends beyond the therapy room and into the broader world we are creating together. Whether you're a clinician, activist, or someone trying to navigate these challenging times with greater courage and compassion, this episode offers inspiration, perspective, and a reminder that healing and social change are deeply connected. Trauma is not only about what happens to us—it is also about the environments and systems we live withinPersonal healing and social change are not separate endeavorsSystems built on “power over” relationships often create the conditions for trauma, oppression, and disconnectionCommunity is one of the most powerful antidotes Healing helps us access the resilience needed to stay engaged with the challenges of our timeEmbodied practices can help transform fear and helplessness into presence, purpose, and actionWorking toward a more just and life-affirming future is both a healing practice and an act of hope Staci has been experimenting at the intersections of personal and social transformation for the last 30 years through the work of politicized somatics, trauma healing, embodied leadership, and transformative justice. Her work brings transformative capacity building social and climate justice leaders, organizations and alliances.  She is currently the co-lead of The Outer Work Project, an initiative partnering with internationally known trauma healing and embodiment leaders, and their communities, to mobilize thousands of new people into progressive social movements. The first cohort starts July 11th! Staci is the author of The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing and Social Justice (2019) and Healing Sex: A Mind Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma. She co-founded generative somatics and founded generationFIVE, committed to ending child sexual abuse within five generations.  https://www.stacihaines.com/ The Outer Work Project https://theouterworkproject.org/ Staci’s Books: The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing, and Social Justice https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Trauma-Somatics-Healing-Justice/dp/1623173876 Healing Sex: A Mind-Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma ⁠⁠https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Sex-Mind-Body-Approach-Sexual/dp/1573442933 Trainings: https://www.stacihaines.com/self-paced

In this heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with longtime colleague and dear friend Deirdre Fay, a pioneering voice in somatic and attachment-based trauma treatment. Reflecting on nearly three decades of shared work, they revisit the early days of trauma therapy—when integrating the body, creativity, and relational healing into psychotherapy was still considered radical. Together, Janina and Deirdre explore how healing from trauma requires more than revisiting painful memories. They discuss the importance of building safety first, helping clients develop the capacity to “notice” rather than become overwhelmed by their internal experiences, and using the body as a gateway to compassion and connection. Their conversation touches on the power of externalization, the role of creativity in trauma treatment, and how shame often emerges not as a personal flaw but as an attachment wound. This episode offers a rich and deeply human reflection on how trauma treatment has evolved—and how healing happens through tiny steps, community, and learning to turn toward what nourishes us. Safety is the foundation of trauma healing Healing involves both body and mind “Notice you noticing” is a powerful therapeutic skill Shame is often an attachment wound Community reduces isolation and shame Deirdre Fay believes that a good life is not an accident, but the result of consistently choosing compassion, connection, and inner growth. She invites people to experience life itself as a kind of modern-day Bodhisattva training — learning to listen deeply to the inner wisdom that can guide us through life’s challenges and transitions. Her work resonates with those who appear successful on the surface yet privately struggle with shame, anxiety, depression, emotional distress, or repetitive relationship patterns. Through a transformational methodology developed over more than forty years of clinical practice and teaching, Deirdre offers practical pathways toward building what she calls a Solid, Steady, Secure Self. Rooted in trauma therapy, attachment theory, yoga, and contemporary neuroscience, Deirdre integrates modern therapeutic approaches with wisdom traditions to help people transform suffering into a more fulfilling life. More recently, she has been exploring the use of creative arts as a way of externalizing inner experience and helping people find words for what has previously remained unspoken. Her work has been described as “a radically positive approach to life.” https://www.dfay.com/ Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery: Simple, Safe, and Effective Practices for Therapy https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinical psychologist Paul Gilbert, the founder of Compassion-Focused Therapy, for a rich and reflective dialogue on shame, compassion, and the evolutionary roots of suffering. Drawing on over four decades of clinical work and research, Gilbert explores how shame is not simply a personal failing but a deeply embedded, biologically shaped experience tied to our need for social belonging. Together, Janina and Paul examine how threat-based systems dominate in trauma survivors, and why cultivating compassion can be both profoundly challenging and profoundly healing. This conversation weaves together science, clinical insight, and personal reflection, illuminating how compassion can transform our relationship to ourselves and others. For therapists and curious listeners, this episode offers a powerful reframe: healing is not about eliminating pain, but about changing how we meet it. Shame is evolutionarily wired, not a personal defect The brain is shaped for survival, not happiness Compassion-Focused Therapy offers a pathway to safety Healing happens when clients can safely experience something different Clinicians play a crucial role in embodying and transmitting compassion, helping clients internalize it over time. Moving away from blame and toward curiosity is a foundational step in trauma recovery. Paul Gilbert Bio Paul Gilbert, FBPsS, PhD, OBE is Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Derby and honorary visiting Prof at the University of Queensland. Until his retirement from the NHS in 2016 he was Consultant Clinical Psychologist for over 40 years. He has researched evolutionary approaches to psychopathology with a special focus on mood, shame and self-criticism in various mental health difficulties for which Compassion Focused Therapy was developed. He was made a Fellow of the British Psychological Society in 1993, president of the BABCP 2002-2004, and was a member of the first British Governments’ NICE guidelines for depression. He has written/edited 23 books and over 300 papers and book chapters. In 2006 he established the Compassionate Mind Foundation as an international charity with the mission statement: To promote wellbeing through the scientific understanding and application of compassion (www.compassionatemind.co.uk). There are now a number of sister foundations in other countries. He was awarded an OBE by the Queen in March 2011 for services to mental health. He established and is the Director of the Centre for Compassion Research and Training at Derby University UK. His latest book is a major edited book with Prof G Simos (2022) Compassion: Clinical practice and Applications (Routledge). www.compassionatemind.co.uk www.profpaulgilbert.co.uk       Key papers and links to further publications Compassion: From Its Evolution to a Psychotherapy Creating a Compassionate World: Addressing the Conflicts Between Sharing and Caring Versus Controlling and Holding Evolved Strategies Google Scholar Profile   For recent videos series: Creating Compassionate World Interview Series   Follow us on: Facebook l Instagram l LinkedIn View our training workshop programme and BPS Approved Diploma Did you know? Results of a meta-analysis suggest CFT is effective in reducing symptoms of depression, anxiety and self-criticism.  Access the paper for free.

In this illuminating conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with Bruce Ecker, co-developer of Coherence Therapy and co-author of Unlocking the Emotional Brain, to explore the powerful role of implicit memory in shaping trauma and human behavior. Together, they challenge the long-standing focus on traumatic events themselves, shifting attention instead to what was learned from those experiences—and how those learnings continue to live on in the body and nervous system. This episode offers a nuanced, practice-informed look at how therapists can access and shift implicit emotional learning, while also inviting listeners to reconsider how patterns, symptoms, and suffering may reflect meaningful adaptations rather than pathology. A must-listen for clinicians and anyone interested in the deeper mechanisms of healing. Trauma lives on through implicit emotional learnings, not just memories of events. Implicit memory drives present-day experience. Cognitive understanding has a limited impact on subcortical, implicit patterns. Lasting change happens when lived experiences directly contradict implicit beliefs. Effective therapy works gradually, allowing clients to access implicit material without overwhelm. Current experiences provide an accessible entry point into implicit memory. Repetitive behaviors and emotional responses reflect stored learning, even without explicit recall. Letting go of long-held implicit beliefs may bring relief, but also mourning for the life shaped by them. Bio: Bruce Ecker, MA, LMFT, is co-originator of Coherence Therapy, co-founder and co-director of the Coherence Psychology Institute, and coauthor of Unlocking the Emotional Brain: Memory Reconsolidation and the Psychotherapy of Transformational Change; the Coherence Therapy Practice Manual & Training Guide; and two other books and numerous peer-reviewed journal articles. Since 2006 he has driven the clinical field's understanding of memory reconsolidation as the core process of transformational therapeutic change, and has developed the application of this brain research breakthrough for major advancements in therapeutic effectiveness and psychotherapy unification. He has taught in clinical graduate programs, is a frequent presenter at conferences and workshops internationally, co-leads the Institute’s annual training intensive, leads several ongoing case consultation groups, and leads the Institute's team of research associates.  Show Notes: https://www.coherencetherapy.org/ Bruce’s peer-reviewed journal articles provide rigorous accounts of matters he mentions in this conversation with Janina, for example: Ecker B. A proposal for the unification of psychotherapeutic action understood as memory modification processes. Journal of Psychotherapy Integration, 34, 291–314. https://doi.org/10.1037/int0000330  Download>> Ecker, B., & Vaz, A. (2022). Memory reconsolidation and the crisis of mechanism in psychotherapy. New Ideas in Psychology, 66, 100945, 1–11.    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.newideapsych.2022.100945 Download>> Ecker, B., & Bridges, S. K. (2020). How the science of memory reconsolidation advances the effectiveness and unification of psychotherapy. Clinical Social Work Journal, 48(3), 287–300. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10615-020-00754-z  Download>> Key Takeaways: