Advertise on podcast: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Before this podcast had a name, before COVID, it began as a collection of conversations with friends. This is the very first interview ever taped for this project, pulled out of the archives. Meet Attorney Ben Gonring, a Madison, Wisconsin public defender who's spent thirty years as a shield protecting kids in juvenile court. Ben has a cartoon taped next to his desk of a prosecutor asking a judge to charge a tadpole as a frog — and it's become the lens through which he sees his entire career. This conversation is about why we must defend children differently than we defend adults, and what the juvenile system can teach us about criminal justice at large.  In this episode, you'll learn: Why juvenile court exists as its own world. The legal and philosophical case for why a 12-year-old sitting in front of a judge can't — and shouldn't — be treated by the same rules as an adult.Why the goal is behavior modification, not punishment. Ben breaks down what juvenile court is actually designed to do, and why he believes punishment alone rarely accomplishes it for anyone, kid or adult.What three decades on the front lines of the system reveals about it. From the built-in fairness gaps kids face, to the small, quiet moments that change a kid's trajectory more than any verdict does — Ben's career offers an honest look at what attorneys can do in this system.In addition to his legal lessons, Ben shows us why kindness is a skill that triumphs all, and how each of us can learn it, teach it, and use it more.  Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Nineteen times, Andrea Lyon stood in front of twelve people and asked them to spare her client’s life. Nineteen times, those people chose not to convict the death penalty. Over her ongoing 50 year career, the trial attorney the Chicago Tribune dubbed "The Angel of Death Row" began in the Cook County Public Defender's Office, where she rose to become Chief of the Homicide Task Force. Of the more than 30 potential capital cases she defended at the trial level, she took 19 all the way through the penalty phase — and won every single one, making her the first woman in the country to serve as lead attorney in a death penalty case. Beyond the courtroom, Andrea founded the Illinois Capital Resource Center and went on to hold academic leadership roles, including a stint as Dean of Valparaiso University Law School and, before that, Clinical Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Clinical Programs at DePaul University College of Law, where she also directed the Center for Justice in Capital Cases. She's the author of the memoir Angel of Death Row: My Life as a Death Penalty Defense Lawyer, among many other publications.  But this episode isn't just about her record — it's about how she used emotion to win those cases. We discuss why juries are quick to accept fear, anger, and shame as legitimate, but treat compassion and empathy with suspicion. Because a trial isn't really a contest of facts — it's about how twelve human beings feel about those facts. Andrea shares what decades in the highest-stakes courtrooms in America taught her about the most powerful thing you can do in front of a jury: remind them they're human too. Buy Andrea's book here. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

In this episode, we discuss the growing gap between what happens in a real trial and what shows up on screen, why Hollywood keeps inventing drama when the truth is already dramatic enough, and how those choices have reshaped the way the public understands the presumption of innocence. Our guest is uniquely positioned to see both sides of this gap. Steve Hurley has spent decades as a criminal defense attorney in Madison, Wisconsin. He's also written for legal TV shows and movies including Primal Fear and Picket Fences, for which he shared an Emmy award. When the media portrays defense attorneys as sleazy and defendants as guilty, those stereotypes bleed into real courtroom decisions. Steve shows us what defense attorneys can and must do in trial to counter this.  Come learn along with us! Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

In this episode, host Aaron Nelson sits down with Karen Smolar, the Dean of the National Criminal Defense College and former Public Defender in the Bronx, to unpack the real difference between performance skills and being performative. Karen has spent decades training young lawyers, watching them fall into the same trap: adopting "the lawyer voice" until they sound less like truthtellers and more like TV characters. But trust in a courtroom isn't built on replicating the media. It's built on authentic tone, pacing, volume, and body language.  In this episode, you'll learn: Why "performative" and "skilled at performance" are oppositesThe physical, non-verbal elements of storytelling most lawyers never train for How authenticity earns trust — from clients, judges, and juriesWatch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Law school teaches you case analysis. Becoming a great trial lawyer comes from working hard cases with real stakes and learning on your feet. In this episode, host Aaron Nelson sits down with Vadim Glozman, a federal defense attorney based in Chicago, who came up under the mentorship of legendary Chicago attorney Ed Genson — a man whose office saw everyone from politicians and alleged mobsters to your everyday neighbor. It's where Vadim learned that behind every case file is a human being, meaning every human has a new lesson to teach you. In this episode, you'll learn: Why the trial lawyer "playbook" doesn't exist — and why the best attorneys are the ones who learn how to figure it out when they don’t know something.How to try strategies that nobody else will — because sometimes the best moves are the ones nobody thinks will work.Why hiring an expensive lawyer can be the smartest move you make — and why we should all value it more.Whether you're a young lawyer trying to find your footing or a law student wondering what actually separates good attorneys from great ones, this episode is packed with hard-earned insight you won't find in a casebook. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

What happens when one attorney realizes helping veterans one case at a time isn't enough? Brock Hunter is a criminal defense attorney, U.S. veteran, founder of the Veterans Defense Project, and author of The Attorney's Guide to Defending Veterans in Criminal Court. He has spent his career reshaping how the legal system treats those who've served. In 2008, he helped pass a veterans sentencing statute in Minnesota: legislation that caught the attention of the U.S. Supreme Court and sparked nationwide state legislation. But this episode starts somewhere more fundamental, with an honest look at how military service and exposure to violence actually affects people, and how those changes ripple into families, communities, and courtrooms. When we better understand how veterans find their way into the system, we better understand why compassion and accountability help bring them back to our communities. Brock's book, The Attorney's Guide to Defending Veterans in Criminal Court puts that philosophy into practice. It covers combat PTSD, the attorney-client relationship, and legal strategies for every stage of a case. It even helped divert two of Aaron’s own clients from prison to mental health treatment. If you work in law, mental health, veterans services, or simply care about how society treats the people it sends to war, this one's for you. Buy Brock’s book here Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

This week, host Aaron Nelson is joined again by fellow criminal defense attorney Keith Belzer for a new kind of Sanctuary analysis. In this bonus episode, we’re stepping back from serious interviews for a full breakdown of My Cousin Vinny, the 1992 courtroom comedy that somehow became required law school homework.  What seems like a fun, Friday night watch becomes a surprisingly sharp masterclass on trial skills. From Joe Pesci's relentless cross-examinations to the art of impeaching a witness, there's real courtroom strategy hiding beneath the laughs. Aaron and Keith separate the kernels of truth from the Hollywood of it all, hopefully just in time for your next hearing.  Thinking on your feet, cutting to the real questions, and mastering courtroom charm: it's all in there, wrapped in a New York accent and an ill-fitting suit. Grab some popcorn and get your law nerd on, you might just learn something new. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

This week, we step back from interviewing defense attorneys to hear from a different kind of decision-maker. The one who sets the tone of the courtroom, Judge Mario White. Judge White joins us to talk about what it actually takes to make a courtroom feel less like an institution and more like a place where justice is possible. We get into why diversity on the bench goes far beyond filling seats, how plain language can change the experience of someone in crisis, and what it means to truly listen to everyone involved. For most people, a courtroom is foreign—a place newcomers are suddenly expected to navigate during the hardest moments of their lives. And yet, our legal system only functions if the public trusts it. Trust requires understanding, and understanding requires someone willing to listen and explain. Judge Mario White has spent his career being that someone. Before he took the bench in Madison, Wisconsin, he stood beside defendants as a public defender, and before that, he taught math to high schoolers. Each role, it turns out, was training for the same thing: learning how to meet people where they are, and bring them somewhere clearer. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Craig Mastantuono didn't leave public defense just to be his own boss. He left because he had a vision for what a great law firm could actually look like. Today, his firm is less a practice and more a culture. It’s built around a philosophy that truly defending someone is setting them up for success both in the courtroom and out. Craig walks us through how his team uses the ACE questionnaire to uncover clients’ stories, why holistic client services are a necessary backbone to defense, and how he helps his clients flourish beyond the requirements of the court. Whether you're thinking about starting your own firm, have your own already, or want to learn how to improve client services in any practice, this episode is for you. CHAPTERS: 00:00 Introduction 01:15 Welcome & Guest Background  29:05 Why start your own firm? 39:35 Why are client services so important? 48:19 What is the ACE Questionnaire? 1:07:03 Motivations & Why Defense Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

So you've learned how to be comfortable in cross examination. Now what? Jim McComas has spent decades redefining what's possible in the courtroom. Between leading the trial division at the Washington D.C. Public Defender Service to becoming a legendary homicide defense lawyer in Alaska, Jim didn't just master cross-examination. He reimagined it. Building on the fundamentals explored in our previous episode with Matt Dodd, Jim introduces his next steps: dynamic cross-examination. Forget rigid scripts and predictable patterns. Jim argues that the lawyers who win hard cases are the ones willing to take calculated risks — turning witnesses into active participants in cross. Drawing from his book Dynamic Cross Examination, Jim reveals how to gather your own facts, pull them out with precision, and stay fluid when the unexpected happens. If you've ever wondered what separates a good cross from a great one, this episode is your answer. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Joining us this week is an expert in cross examination, Attorney Matt Dodd. In this episode, he lays the groundwork for telling a story through facts, breaking down the how-tos and whys behind the art of asking questions. It’s a great listen for lawyers and non-lawyers alike looking to improve their communication and persuasion skills.  While cross examination, or questioning adverse witnesses, is often thought of as a time for poking holes in the government’s theory, Matt tell us we should see cross as another chance to illustrate your theory and speak on your client’s behalf. It’s a chance to paint your client’s story by establishing facts and empowering the jury to agree with your conclusions. If you’re interested in diving deeper into these techniques, be sure to check out Matt’s book Cross Examination for Depositions.   Whether it's using constructive cross methods or showing appreciation to court staff, Matt reminds us we should always lead with decency and kindness. We hope you enjoy.  Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Despite knowing she wanted to be a public defender from the age of ten, Colette shares that even when you know where you want to go, finding who you are on the way there is the most rewarding part.  Colette’s career has taken her through public and private defense work in DC, Massachusetts, Seattle, Denver, and more. Along with practicing, she has also served as Director of Public Defense Training and Reform at the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL). Through all of these experiences, Colette not only continues to discover her own voice but has helped create spaces for other defense attorneys to find their own. At its core, criminal defense work is about belonging: helping our clients feel seen and heard starts with an attorney who can stand confidently in who they are. This is a conversation about growth, identity, and the lifelong process of becoming the advocate your clients need. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Today’s conversation sits at the heart of what we do as defenders: story. I’m joined by my friend Keith Belzer, a master of courtroom storytelling who has spent years studying not just what makes a story persuasive, but why it moves people. If you’ve been with us since episode one, you’ll know story is a frequent topic. We’ve explored finding our clients’ stories with Michele Lavigne and using story to build empathy with Matt Hefti — today, we go even deeper. Keith unpacks the roots of storytelling, the power of archetypes, and the fine line between authentic connection and empty acting. With a background in theater, he brings a rare blend of heart, attention to detail, and an understanding of performance. Because while law school trained us to think logically, the courtroom is still a human space — and people are persuaded by emotion and meaning, not just mechanics. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Welcome back to Sanctuary in the Jungle, a podcast for criminal defense attorneys about the importance of humanity and reason in the criminal legal system.  In this episode, host Aaron A. Nelson sits down with Texas criminal defense attorney and writer Matthew Hefti. Matt’s path to becoming a defense lawyer is deeply personal. While deployed overseas, he was involved in a tragic incident and charged with homicide in the military justice system. Matt shares how his various experiences—from writing a novel, to dismantling bombs to parenting and religion—informs how he stands with his clients and how he works to make the system more just. Drawing from his own case, he discusses how change often comes from recognizing where discretion exists—even when the system insists “there’s no other option.” This episode is a powerful listen for criminal defense attorneys, public defenders, and trial lawyers seeking deeper insight into how we can better tell clients’ stories, demand accountability, and bring more healing into defense work.   —--- Matt is also the author of A Hard and Heavy Thing, a novel about friendship, sacrifice, and the weight of it all. In 2016, it was named Top Ten Books of the Year by Military times, Top Ten First Novels of the Year by Booklist and Great Group Reads pick by the Women’s National book Association. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Sanctuary is back with a true Wisconsin criminal defense legend—Attorney Deja Vishny. A longtime public defender, Deja has handled more than 125 homicide cases, earning much recognition for her work. Deja is the recipient of NACDL's 2023 Champion of Justice award, two lifetime achievements from WACDL, the Wisconsin Law Journal's "Women in the Law" award, and many more.   She brings that depth of experience to a powerful conversation about what it means to build sanctuary in cases defined by loss. She'll tell us about how she brings humanity and healing to the courtroom, including how she has conversations with families of the deceased. Beyond trial work, Deja teaches defense and trial advocacy across the country, serves on the faculty of the National Criminal Defense College, has held leadership roles with the NACDL, and authored a book on suppressing criminal evidence. So tune in! Deja Vishny has much to offer. Watch on Youtube  Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net  Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle TikTok:  ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩   Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle