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Sixteen years ago, my very first podcast conversation was with my sales coach Matt Nettleton. So, naturally, when Matt came back to More Than A Few Words, we talked about how the fundamentals of good sales haven't changed all that much. Matt and I agree that when you're starting a business, a qualified prospect is often anyone with a pulse, a checkbook and the ability to fog a mirror. And that's okay. You have bills to pay. But eventually, you need to get a little pickier. We have talked for years about customers as deer, moose and elephants. The problem is, too many salespeople spend their days chasing squirrels and rabbits while trying to hit goals that require much bigger game. And then there's the really big elephant. What happens when you land a customer that's actually too big? Matt shared the story of a client preparing to chase an opportunity that would increase revenue by 50% in about 60 days. Sounds fabulous, right? Except they didn't have the people, cash or capacity to deliver. They walked away, found two customers that were a much better fit and ended up growing 30%. Sometimes saying no really is a growth strategy. In this episode of More Than A Few Words, Matt Nettleton and I talk about knowing who belongs in your sales pipeline, giving yourself permission to let bad prospects go and why the customers who got you here may not be the customers who take you where you want to go. And yes, after sixteen years, we're still talking about deer, moose and elephants.   ***************************************************** About Matt Nettleton For Indianapolis Business Owners Tired of the Revenue Roller Coaster | I Build Sales Engines That Forecast Accurately | Sandler-Certified | My Clients Have Closed $3.2B+ in New Sales | Book a 30-Min Diagnostic Call Matt is also the host of the Default Profitable podcast, where I interview successful small business owners and share valuable insights, tips, and trends on starting and running a business. I am a certified instructor of Sandler Training, Extended DISC, PeopleBest and OMG Profile. I specialize in sales organizational assessment, sales process development, and leadership programs. More Than a Few Words More Than a Few Words is a bite-sized marketing podcast for people who want practical ideas they can actually use. Each episode cuts through the noise with smart conversations about what’s working, what’s changing, and every now and then, what went wrong. Hosted by marketing strategist Lorraine Ball, the show has been serving up marketing ideas with no fluff and no jargon since 2010. Like what you hear? Follow More Than a Few Words so you never miss a conversation. https://morethanafewwords.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorraineball/

For years, Sunday nights had a routine. Around eight o'clock, I'd start thinking about Monday. Emails. Client requests. Deadlines. That one surprise waiting to derail my plans before I'd even had my first cup of coffee. Like a lot of business owners, I figured the answer was simple. Work a little harder over the weekend and get ahead. It never worked. The more I worked, the longer my to-do list seemed to get. Instead of feeling prepared, I felt like I was starting every week one step behind.   What finally made a difference wasn't anything I did on Sunday. It was what I started doing on Friday. Back then, Friday afternoon became protected time. No meetings after one o'clock. No "just one more call." Instead, I spent a couple of hours wrapping up the week so Monday had a much softer landing. The first stop was my inbox. I've always been an Inbox Zero fan, not because it's trendy, but because I don't like loose ends. I answered what I could, delegated what I should, and filed the rest. When I shut my computer down, there wasn't a pile of unanswered email waiting for me on Monday. Then I reset my workspace. There was a lot less paper than there used to be, but somehow receipts, notes, and sticky notes still multiplied during the week. A quick cleanup on Friday saved me from hunting for things on Monday morning. Next came my task list. I collected ideas all week long. Friday was when I decided which ones deserved my attention. Some became projects. Some were delegated. Others quietly disappeared because they really weren't that important after all. One habit made an even bigger difference. When I had a good idea that simply wasn't right for right now, I didn't leave it sitting on my list making me feel guilty. I scheduled it to come back in three or six months. If it came back and still didn't make the cut, I knew it wasn't as important as I thought. Finally, I planned my weekend. Yes, I usually checked in on work at some point. That's life when you're running a business. But I decided ahead of time when I'd work and, just as important, when I wouldn't. Walks, dinner with friends, and family time all went on the calendar, too. If I didn't plan my downtime, work happily filled every available minute. The best part was that Sunday nights lost their grip on me. I knew what was waiting on Monday, and I knew it already had a place on my calendar. These days, I don't have the pressure of running a business anymore, but I still protect Friday afternoon. I clear my desk, close the open loops, and head into the weekend knowing Monday won't be waiting to ambush me. Some habits are worth keeping, even after the job changes. What about you? Do you have a Friday routine that makes Monday easier? I'd love to hear about it. And if you'd like to compare notes, you can book an Office Hours conversation at morethanafewwords.com/officehours.

When you spend 17 years creating content for your business and others, you kind of have it down to a system.   You write, you post, you check all the boxes.  But what happens if one day you wakle up and realize, your content is boring.  That happened to industry veteran, Rachel Allen. One day she looked at her own freshly published Substack and thought, "I wouldn't read that." Ouch. I suspect we've all written that post at least once.   The really scary part wasn't that her content wasn't working. It was what she did next. She stopped. No backup plan. No carefully crafted pivot. She simply gave herself permission to be quiet until she had something worth saying. If that idea makes your palms sweat, you're not alone. Mine did too. What I loved was what happened when she came back. She stopped trying to "get attention" and started sharing the things she genuinely enjoyed. Some of it was marketing. Some of it was about writing a musical about her cat. I have to admit, as a fellow pet owner, I'd probably read that. The funny thing is that the less she tried to sound like a marketer, the more people paid attention. More engagement. More conversations. More clients.

People may tell their friends they're fine. They may tell a salesperson what they think they should say. But when they open Google, they're honest. They type in the questions they're almost afraid to ask out loud. That simple idea turned into a fascinating conversation about why so many businesses miss the mark online. Stephan Bajaio one of the pioneers in enterprise SEO, and now leads Vibe Logic. After years helping some of the biggest brands in the world understand search behavior, he's convinced the real opportunity isn't chasing keywords. It's understanding people. Here are a few ideas that really stuck with me. Stop obsessing over keywords and start listening for intent. The words matter, but the questions behind those words matter even more. Don't fall in love with your own language. Customers don't care what you call your product. They search using the words they know. If you insist on inventing new terms, be prepared to spend a fortune teaching the market your vocabulary. Look beyond the bullet point. Stephan shared an example from an insurance company that listed "change in marital status" as a simple bullet. Behind that one phrase are dozens of emotional questions from people trying to figure out what happens after a divorce. Those are the questions customers are searching for, and the company wasn't answering them. Help before you sell. One line from Stephan's T-shirt says it all. "If you're not helping people, you're just selling stuff." That idea showed up again and again throughout our conversation. My favorite moment wasn't about SEO at all. It was Stephan's story about flipping through a cousin's wedding album. We have all done that, and be honests when you are flipping the pages, you aren't really looking at the bride. You are looking for a picture of you.  That's exactly what visitors are doing on your website. They're trying to see themselves in your content and decide if you understand what they're need.

I want to talk about upselling, and when it actually works against you. Most smart companies have a core product and a menu of add-ons. The really smart ones know not to throw every extra at a customer the minute they say yes.  You listen first. You find out what they need. Then you decide which add-ons make sense. The other day, I stopped at Hardee's and ordered a hamburger. No cheese. What followed felt like an interrogation. Did I want a combo? A drink? A pastry? Was it a number one? A number seven? Meanwhile, I kept repeating the same thing: "I just want a hamburger." By the end of the conversation, I wasn't hungry. I was annoyed. And that got me thinking. Are you doing the same thing to your customers?  Are you so focused on selling the extras that you stop listening to what they actually came to buy? Don't get me wrong. Add-ons are a great way to increase revenue. But only when they're relevant. Offering everything to everyone isn't a sales strategy. It's the business equivalent of that drive-thru speaker that won't stop talking. Before you pitch the upgrade, ask yourself a few questions. Does this solve a problem the customer has already mentioned? Have I explained why this add-on matters? Am I offering it at the right point in the conversation? And here's one more thing to consider. Are customers asking for services or features you don't currently offer? Sometimes the biggest opportunity isn't another upsell. It's paying attention to what people are trying to buy. The goal isn't to sell more stuff. The goal is to help customers get more value

Ever feel like your marketing plan is the rope in a tug-of-war match? The sales team is pulling one way. The owner is pulling another. Someone's daughter took a marketing class in college and has opinions. And the person who's actually responsible for the campaign is standing in the middle, trying not to get dragged through the mud. That's why my conversation with Beth Trejo really struck a chord with me.  Beth is the CEO and co-founder of Chatterkick, and she works with franchise organizations, multi-location businesses, and other companies where marketing decisions rarely come from just one person. While her examples came from large organizations, I couldn't help thinking about all the small businesses I've worked with over the years. Sometimes a "multi-layer brand" is just a family business with three generations around the conference table. A few things stood out from our conversation: Marketing isn't just about customers. Sometimes you need to market your ideas internally. Beth pointed out that marketers spend a lot of time building buy-in inside the organization. If stakeholders don't feel included, they'll grab the rope and start pulling in their own direction. Not everyone has to participate the same way. Some people love being front and center. Others would rather hide behind the camera. Beth's advice was simple: meet people where they are and help them contribute in ways that feel natural. Stop arguing and start testing. This might have been my favorite part of the conversation because it brought back memories of my corporate days. When someone insisted my idea would never work, I'd ask for a small test. Data has a wonderful way of settling arguments without bruising anyone's ego. Local voices make brands stronger and easier to find. For franchise and multi-location businesses, there needs to be consistency. But there also needs to be room for local personality. That's good for customer relationships and good for SEO. Search engines, just like customers, want signals that you're connected to the community you serve. Remember that you are not the customer. This sounds obvious, but it's amazing how often we forget it. The things we like, dislike, click on, or ignore may have nothing to do with what our customers want. The strongest marketing teams stay curious and let customer behavior guide the decisions. Ultimately, it isn't about winningt the game of tug-of-war, it is about .getting everyone to pull in the same direction, the customer's direction!

I’ve watched a lot of entrepreneurs build amazing communities, only to discover that applause doesn’t always pay the bills. In this conversation with , we talked about the moment she realized her thriving podcast community needed more than goodwill and good vibes to become a sustainable business. Angel has always been brilliant at bringing people together. Her podcast networking platform created real relationships, real collaborations, and real opportunities. But somewhere along the way, she realized she was creating enormous value without building a business model around it. That’s a lesson a lot of women business owners know all too well. What made this conversation especially interesting was how intentionally she shifted from “free for everyone” to a tiered community with clear value, stronger positioning, and protected intellectual property. A few takeaways worth stealing: • Free can open the door, but it shouldn’t be the whole house. Angel discovered that even a small monthly fee changes the quality of participation. The people willing to invest, even modestly, are usually the ones serious about growth. • Your intellectual property has value. Treat it that way. One of my favorite moments in the conversation was our discussion about trademarks, ownership, and protecting the assets you create. Too many business owners build incredible frameworks and never stop to realize they actually own something valuable. • Visibility works best as an ecosystem. Angel shared her “Apples” framework for building visibility through articles, podcasts, press, live events, and evergreen content. I loved this because it’s a reminder that marketing rarely works as a one-and-done tactic. The magic happens when all the pieces support each other. • Start messy. Just start. We also laughed about early podcast recordings that sounded like they were captured inside a tile bathroom. But the point was important. Waiting for perfect usually means never starting at all. This episode is a great reminder that building a business takes more than creating value. You also need structure, intention, and the confidence to ask people to invest in what you’ve built. Because “free forever” is not a marketing plan. It’s a hobby.

Great Marketing Isn't About Being Clever. It's About Being Understood. One of the biggest mistakes marketers make is chasing creativity for creativity's sake. A clever campaign might win awards, but if it doesn't help customers understand why they should buy, it misses the mark. That was the heart of my conversation with Scott Flood, a veteran copywriter who has spent decades helping companies communicate complex ideas in ways that drive results. Whether you're selling snacks, software, or something that costs a quarter of a million dollars, the goal is the same. Your marketing needs to connect with the right audience and give them what they need to make a decision. What I Took Away from the Conversation Clarity beats cleverness in complex sales. When buyers are making big decisions, they aren't looking for entertainment. They need information they can trust and share with others involved in the buying process. Creativity isn't the same as being funny. Scott made a great point. Real creativity is finding the best way to capture attention, hold interest, and make your message memorable. Sometimes that includes humor. Sometimes it doesn't. Constraints can actually make you more creative. Whether you're working within brand guidelines or industry expectations, limitations often help focus your thinking. Instead of worrying about endless options, you can put your energy into solving the real communication challenge. Even technical buyers are still human beings. Engineers, attorneys, contractors, and executives all make decisions with a mix of logic and emotion. The best marketing speaks to both. You can't understand customers from behind a screen. One of my favorite moments in the conversation was our discussion about getting out and talking to real people. Customer avatars and AI-generated profiles can be useful, but nothing replaces listening to customers explain their challenges in their own words. The best marketing answers practical questions. Customers want to know how you'll help them make money, save time, avoid problems, or improve results. Focus there first, and the creative execution becomes much easier. My biggest takeaway? Before you spend time making your marketing more clever, make sure it's more useful. That's what customers remember, and that's what drives results. Sometimes the most creative thing you can do is simply understand your customer better.

Marketing Lessons Everywhere Here’s the thing about marketing—lessons are everywhere. You just have to know where to look. Sometimes it’s in the obvious places, like watching how competitors roll out a campaign. Other times it’s less obvious. Like standing on a floating dock in Santiago, staring at a mussel farm. There, I learned that mussels grow best when they have room. The farmers pull up the ropes, remove the ones that aren’t thriving, and separate the rest so they can mature. The smallest, youngest mussels are placed where the water is richest, giving them the best chance to grow. Business works the same way. Sometimes, you have too many clients. You’re trying to serve everyone, but no one’s getting your best. You may need to “thin the herd” and let go of clients that drain your time and energy. Create space for your best customers to grow with you. And when you do, you’ll have more time to nurture the next generation, the new leads with potential to become long-term, loyal partners. Not every client is worth your attention. Some are just taking up space. And some, like those thriving mussels, are ready to become something really special

As a podcaster, you can crank out 100 episodes and still get nowhere. That’s an uncomfortable truth for many podcasters.  So how do hosts get into this situation? I sat down with Nathalie Dorémieux, who helps podcasters turn listeners into real business results, and she shared how her first podcast started as a bold experiment and stalled out just as quickly. The idea was simple. Nathalie took 100 days of Facebook Lives and turned them into a podcast. Plenty of content, plenty of consistency, and zero results. What went wrong? No strategy, no clear goal, and no path for the listener to take the next step. The content was fine, but it wasn’t doing a job. It didn’t invite connection or action, it just existed. For a long time, marketing rewarded people who knew the most and said it the loudest. Write more blogs, record more episodes, share more tips. The assumption was simple. If you show how smart you are, people will want to work with you. That worked… until everyone started doing it. Now there’s no shortage of good content. Your audience isn’t sitting there thinking, “I wish someone would explain this better.” They’re thinking, “Who do I trust? Who gets me? Who feels like my kind of person?” That’s where connection comes in. Connection is what makes someone stop mid-scroll and actually listen. It’s your point of view, your stories, your voice, the way you frame a problem. It’s the moment when a listener thinks, “That’s exactly what I’ve been struggling with.” Content delivers information. Connection creates momentum. And here’s where Nathalie’s mistake really shows up. She had plenty of content, but there was no intentional path to deepen that relationship. No invitation to continue the conversation. No moment where the listener moves from “that was interesting” to “I want to talk to her.” So yes, keep creating content. Just don’t stop there. Make it easier for people to connect the dots… and then connect with you.

Ever notice how often someone asks for a brochure when what they really need is something else entirely? That’s where this conversation goes, and it’s a good one. I sat down with Bill Shander, an information designer and author who calls himself a “stakeholder whisperer.” And trust me, it’s not as mystical as it sounds. It’s actually a practical, powerful way to rethink how you show up in your marketing conversations. We talked about why storytelling isn’t just about your audience. It’s also about how you communicate with the people inside your business who shape what gets created in the first place. A few takeaways worth holding onto: Don’t jump to the solution too fast When someone asks for a deliverable, a brochure, a campaign, a website, pause. That request is often just the symptom. Your real job is to figure out the problem underneath it. Your most important stakeholder isn’t always your boss It’s easy to default to the person giving the assignment. But the real priority is usually the end user. The person who will read, click, buy, or ignore what you create. Influence comes from expertise, not opinion “I like this better” won’t get you far. But “data shows this performs better” changes the conversation. Bring evidence, not just ideas. Ask one better question You don’t have to challenge everything. Start small. One thoughtful question can open the door to a smarter solution and a deeper conversation. Stop being an order taker The people who grow in their roles aren’t the ones who say yes to everything. They’re the ones who think, question, and guide. The real magic here is simple. When you shift from doing what people ask to understanding what they actually need, everything gets better. Your work, your results, and how people see you.   About Bill  Bill Shander is an information designer, helping clients turn their data into compelling visual and often interactive experiences. He teaches data storytelling, information design and data visualization on LinkedIn Learning, and in workshops around the world. Clients include the World Bank, Starbucks, multiple U.S. Government agencies, Big Four firms, and many more household names across a spectrum of industries. He is a keynote speaker and has lectured for graduate and undergraduate students at Harvard, Northeastern, UVM, and other universities across the United States. LEARN MORE: https://billshander.com/

After twelve hundred episodes and sixteen years of conversations, I’ve heard a lot of smart ideas about marketing and sales. But every once in a while, one sticks with me. This one goes all the way back to the beginning, to a conversation with my very first and very frequent guest, Matt Nettleton. It’s about sales, but not the pushy, fight-your-way-in kind. It’s about something much simpler and a whole lot more effective. I sat down with Matt, a sales coach and founder of Sandler Training, to talk about what he calls “storming the castle.” And no, it’s not about medieval strategy. It’s about what most salespeople get completely wrong. Here’s the shift that matters: • Stop pitching, start asking Most sales calls fall apart because we lead with what we want to say. Matt flipped that on its head. When you ask thoughtful, structured questions, prospects don’t resist. They lean in and start talking. • Questions are a discipline, listening is an art That line stuck with me. Great questions aren’t random. They’re planned. When you know where the conversation is going, you can actually listen instead of just waiting for your turn to talk. • Guide the conversation, don’t force it Matt shared a simple flow. Start broad, narrow it down, and uncover the real issue. By the time you get there, the prospect has basically invited you in and handed you the problem to solve. The big “aha” for me was this. You don’t have to fight your way into the conversation. If you do it right, they lower the drawbridge for you. And honestly, that’s a lot more fun than storming the castle.

I knew that Danielle Hughes and I were kindred spirits the first time I saw the name of her company More Than Words Copywriting. Clearly, we had the same attitude about words, but our bond was stronger than that. We agreed on so many things in marketing that it has been an absolute pleasure to get to know her over the years. And so I could not dive into my archives without sharing at least one of our conversations, this one about creating a bio that makes people want to get to know you is my favorite.  Ever read a bio that sounded like a LinkedIn résumé in a tuxedo? Polished, proper, and completely forgettable. That’s exactly what we set out to fix in this conversation. I sat down with Danielle Hughes to talk about how to turn your bio into something people actually want to read and more importantly, someone they want to work with. Danielle helps entrepreneurs and organizations uncover their personality brand so their message feels natural, not forced, and actually connects. Here’s where the conversation really landed: Your bio isn’t about you, it’s for them Yes, it’s your story, but your reader is scanning for one thing. Can you help me? Shift the focus from “here’s everything I’ve done” to “here’s how I make your life easier.” Personality beats perfection A great bio makes someone feel like they already know you. Danielle calls it becoming a “fully formed human on the page.” That means sharing just enough of who you are to spark a connection, not your entire life story. You have permission to leave things out This one hit home. Just because you did it doesn’t mean it belongs in your bio. If you don’t want to do it again, don’t highlight it. Your bio should point toward where you’re going, not where you’ve been. Give them something to grab onto A hobby, a quirky detail, something you love to talk about. It doesn’t have to be relevant to your work. It just has to be interesting enough to start a conversation. Make it easy to skim Most people won’t read every word. Front-load the good stuff, break it up, and don’t be shy about including results or even a well-placed humblebrag. If your bio is making people yawn before they meet you, it’s time for a rewrite. Wake it up with a little personality, a dash of honesty, and just enough of you to make someone think, “Okay, I want to talk to her.”

I love diving into my archive.  There are so many amazing conversations there, like this one with Deirdre Tshien.   We talked about the difference between creating fun content for the feed and functional content that starts conversations and drives prospects to your door.  If your social media feels like shouting into the wind, you’re not alone. So many business owners post, promote, repeat, and then wonder why no one responds. The problem usually isn’t the platform. It’s the approach. In this conversation, I sat down with Deirdre Tshien to talk about what it really means to be social on social media. And spoiler alert, it has a lot less to do with posting more often and a lot more to do with starting better conversations. Deirdre shares a simple four-part content rhythm that helps turn random posts into a smart strategy. Key Takeaways Start with awareness Ask a question. Share an opinion. Use a poll. Give people an easy way to jump into the conversation. If no one engages, it’s hard to build momentum. Follow with elaboration Once people show interest, go deeper. Share advice, explain the topic, or answer questions. This is where you show your expertise without sounding like a know-it-all. Build community Talk about clients, partners, collaborators, or even life lessons that connect to your message. Tag people when it makes sense. Social media works better when it feels human. Then make the ask After you’ve opened the conversation and offered value, invite people to take the next step. Listen to the podcast. Join the webinar. Download the guide. Timing matters. Why This Matters Too many women business owners treat social media like a billboard. But it works much better as a coffee shop conversation. People don’t gather around billboards. They do gather where they feel seen, heard, and included.

The same tool that helps you find your best customer can also be used to find someone’s fears, anger, or bias. That’s where smart marketing turns into something a lot messier. In this conversation, from our archive, we unpack market segmentation, the good it can do, and the risks that come with it.  Recorded in 2017 many of the same concerns are still valid today.  I chatted with Lydia Thurston and Sam Von Tobel about demographics, psychographics, and why every business owner should understand both sides of the story. Why this matters: Targeting helps you spend less and connect faster. But when powerful tools land in careless hands, the results can get ugly. Takeaways: Good targeting saves time and money Demographics help you narrow by age, gender, income, or location. Psychographics help you understand interests, values, and habits. Together, they help you reach moms looking for cooking classes or families searching for healthy meal ideas, instead of shouting into the void. The same data can be misused We talked about the ProPublica case, where ad targeting tools were tested to reach groups based on hateful beliefs. That’s a wake-up call. These systems don’t just sell soup and cooking classes. They can also spread division if no one is paying attention. Just because you can target someone doesn’t mean you should Marketing always needs a moral compass. It’s easy to get excited about precision and forget responsibility. Smart business owners need both. Platforms have work to do Facebook responded by blocking some harmful terms, but the bigger challenge remains. People can still be reached through indirect signals like music tastes, interests, or online behavior. This problem doesn’t disappear with one patch. If you use targeting tools, ask yourself, will this help my customer, and would I be comfortable explaining how I used it?