Zero To Travel Podcast

Graham Hughes 0:00
Although I was traveling alone, I never really felt lonely. I didn't feel like I was, you know, it was me against the world. It was more kind of me with the world kind of pushing me forward. And that was a really, really positive experience.

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You're listening to the zero to travel Podcast where we explore exciting travel based work, lifestyle and business opportunities, helping you to achieve your wildest travel dreams. Now your host, world wonder and travel junkie, Jason Moore.

Jason Moore 0:35
Hey there, it's Jason weds you want to travel.com Welcome to the show, my friend. Thanks for hanging out letting me bring a little travel into your ears today. This is the show to help you travel the world on your terms to fill your life with as much travel as you desire, no matter what your situation or experience. And today's guest certainly did a great job filling his life with travel. This is one from the archives. And we're calling the Greatest Hits because Graham Hughes is the guest today. And he's the first person and as far as I know, still the only person to visit every country in the world. Without flying This dude has incredible stories to share. As you can imagine, not only that he's got really practical advice for any independent travelers out there listening, who want to find ways to travel safer, to want to know what to do if they end up in jail, where to carry your money, how he traveled on $100 A week, a lot of different things going on in this conversation. And I wanted to highlight this one from the archives because some of these shows, they get buried after some years and this one deserves to be heard again, I'm also going to share my three iconic overland journeys you may not want to travel to every country in the world overland like granted, and you'll hear some of the crazy experiences he had getting thrown in jail and plenty of stuff going on in this chat. But we can all do some of these other overland journeys that are still crazy, long, adventurous, but iconic and doable, and many people have done them and there are three that I would consider doing in my life for sure. I also want to give a quick shout out somebody in this community who wrote me a message while they were traveling overland and talked about one of my favorite parts of overland travel. First, here's how you can finally make one of your bucket list vacations a reality travel lovers meet the US Bank altitude connect Visa Signature card with this credit card you'll get four times points on travel, including gas and evey charging stations, and five times points on prepaid hotels and car rentals when you book directly through the altitude rewards center and no matter where in the world you are, you'll get two times points on groceries dining and streaming with a $30 annual credit for streaming services to visit us bank.com/altitude Connect to apply and learn how you can earn 50,000 bonus points. You deserve a credit card with more and more travel rewards apply to become an altitude Connect card holder at us bank.com/altitude. Connect, limited time offer the creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. Now the subject of this email was muito obrigado. This is from Ali who said Hi, Jason. This email has been a long time coming. We've been listening to your podcast since 2016, maybe longer. My name is Ali and my husband is Henry gay. I'm originally from the US and he's Brazilian. I'm writing you this letter in the notes of my phone while on a bus and my friend and I are on my way to para chi. Brazil, my friend is sleeping and I am watching the landscape change feeling very inspired. wanted to thank you for all the work you've done with the podcast. My husband and I have listened to it all around the US South America and Europe might sound strange, but your voice is familiar now and one of a friend it really is the 21st century. She goes on to say my husband and I are now at the point where we can choose where we want to live and work remotely. I feel immensely grateful as I look out the bus window and see the beautiful landscapes. We're spending three months in Brazil, at that point can't imagine who I'd be without this Brazilian influence in my life. I say half jokingly now that I'm Brazilian on the inside Next we go to Portugal and spent two months there anyway, just want to thank you so much for supporting people on the path to freedom. It's been very influential, and keep up the work. So thank you, Ali and Henry K. awesome to hear from you. And I wanted to include this shout out here because that is one of my favorite parts of overland travel. She mentioned watching the landscape change and that is one of the greatest joys to me seeing that physical change changing the landscape, giving yourself time to slowly make your way to another destination space to think and something about looking out the window and seeing that is relaxing, inspiring. A lot of things. And you know, you've been there, you've been looking out the windows of the buses and the trains and had those same feelings. And it's it's part of the travel magic, really. And thank you again to Ellie and her husband for being such longtime listeners of the show. Really, truly appreciate that. And please, I invite you to get in touch anytime Chase net zero to travel.com is my email, you can always leave me a voicemail with that handy link in the show notes. Now, let's slip and slide into this interview with Graham Hughes. For years and 31 days, he traveled to 2017 countries and territories. Overland insane. Join the chat, and I'll see you on the other side, my friend.

Unknown Speaker 6:00
Ladies and gentlemen, those of you queuing up at the ticket machines, if you turn to your right, the distributed circle and signs along the corridor, follow the blue lines along with more to the district that certified ticket ATF ticket machines available for you to use.

Jason Moore 6:20
So excited today to welcome this amazing guy cram us who spent four years traveling over 201 international borders, cross by foot, bus, taxi, train, ship, canoe, whatever the main thing was, he didn't fly anywhere he did, basically the entire planet Earth all Overland. On the way he said again, this world record visiting every sovereign state on the planet. And you were only spending about $100 a week. Am I missing anything? Graham, can you give me the overview on this crazy audacious adventure that you're kind of my travel here? Oh, man, I'm a little bit in awe of what you've done to be honest with you. So lay it on us. Let me hear the overview from you.

Graham Hughes 7:02
Well, I was I was kind of inspired by around the world nature today's are both the book by Jules Verne and also the TV show that Michael Palin from Monty Python did, where he traveled around the world without flying yet to get from London to London. Some people have been to every country in the world, but no one had done it without flying. And so I set this rule for myself, you know, I'm going to do it without flying. And just as added, no circumstance prevailed or whatever. There were also some other restriction. On the while I was doing Yes, I traveled alone. And I couldn't convince anyone but enough to go with me to do it on a shoestring budget. Because I didn't have much money and had to plan everything myself. I didn't have I had my mum and dad and my golf and a few other people helping me along the way. But the bulk of the sort of doing my research and sorting out which countries are open and which countries are needed visas for and all that kind of thing. That all came down to me. In the end, on the estimates how long it would take to go to every country without flying, I thought it'd take about 12 to 18 months in the in the end, it took about four years.

Jason Moore 8:06
Do you think like if you knew it was going to take four years going into it, you would have gone on it? Or was it probably better to be just sort of ignorant about it? Right?

Graham Hughes 8:13
I think I might have gone on it. But I don't think my girlfriend would have allowed me. I think that was a bit longer than I thought it would take. And I wasn't that out really because in the first year of my travels went to 133 countries. And in the second year, I managed to get to another 50 There's only last two years of travel circumstances and things like that prevailed. And the last 17 countries that I had to get to pretty much all islands. And I was at the mercy of cargo ship timetables. And also, I needed to get to the Maldives and Seychelles to see both in the Indian Ocean and both in the high risk area for Somali piracy. And that makes hitching a ride on a cargo ship. That little bit more difficult. And compounding all this, the Guinness World Records before I started said to me, you're not allowed to drive yourself and you're not allowed to hitchhike overland in case I went faster the speed limit basically. So it was all all the overland stuff was all done on buses and trains and Bush taxis and public transportation. The deal was if I had another member of the public with me it counted as public transportation. And so that it added another dimension of of sort of difficulty on the onto the journey. But by the time I got to sort of 184 countries, I just thought, I've got to finish this you just give up now, even though the difficulty curves just gone up through the roof.

Jason Moore 9:43
It's so insane. And I've traveled overland and cross borders and all that stuff. But then you just factor in all of these different sort of obstacles and this all these rules based around what you had to do. It's absolutely incredible. And it says on your website that you're the guy and I kind of quote So you're the guy who always says yes. And then worries about how you're going to do it afterwards. Yes, do something like this. It almost has to be that way. But is that how this whole thing started is just kind of like one day saying, Hey, I'm going to do this thing. I have no idea how but but this is it. When did this all start

Graham Hughes 10:17
wanting to go through every country in the world starts whenever the kid is to go on caravan trips, camping trips around Europe, it was about around the time that the USSR fell apart. And suddenly we had all these countries that we could never go to be forced out, you know, difficult visas. Suddenly open to us, I get hungry, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and I found I found that already exciting. And as soon as I finished university, I started saving up to go travelling, and I spent a year going around the world, I went to India and Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and all around South America, and just loved it. And then the years after that, I worked as a video director and Liverpool, and whenever I'd go away anywhere, I'd always shoot videos of what I was doing. And this would be for YouTube. So it was kind of just home videos that I was using. At the time, I didn't really have a mind for it to go online. With about 2008 and 2008. I was looking for my next big project, my 30th birthday was looming, and I wanted to do something, you know, something quite sort of interesting, I guess. And I took,

Jason Moore 11:27
I'd say a little bit more than that. It's yeah, audacious.

Graham Hughes 11:31
Well, I took the concept to Lonely Planet in Australia, alien in Melbourne, and I sent off a pitch video to them, which you can view on line, if you call me on my YouTube page. And off the back of that they invited me in. And luckily, I was in Australia at the time. And they invited me in for a chat and they said, Do you want to make a TV show of this? Okay, then, I thought was a fantastic idea. What happened was, I took my trusty camcorder out with me and I filmed myself as I went and sent the tapes over to Australia. And they put the first year of my travels together into a TV show.

Jason Moore 12:04
So you can read all along with your adventures on the Odyssey expedition, your website and I was reading through it last night. And man, I really encourage people to read it. I know you finished this trip in November of 2012. But it takes you right there and to just hear oh, I went to every country in the world, but then to read, you know, sentences like you were in Congo, and there was nowhere to buy hot foods. So you had to, quote unquote, make do with a fly covered stick of bread, and a five year old tin of sardines. This is a true adventure. This is no joke. So I want to hear a few of your stories I know, you know, from getting thrown in prison to dealing with officials and what was your low point, I guess. And then on the flip side, what was your high point here?

Graham Hughes 12:49
I mean, the a few difficult sort of obstacles to get past usually regarding islands, the biggest mistake I made on the journey, the lowest point of the journey was I got into a situation in Senegal in which I didn't organize my own transport. I had someone do it on my behalf. And it was the only time that I'd ever sort of let go of the reins of the horse if you like and that someone else sort of helped me get on my way in that in that respect. And it really did blow up in my face. I ended up taking this leaky wooden canoe paroled a fisherman's boat, over 400 kilometers to Cape Verde Islands, the local fishermen there were there was there was no safety equipment, there was no radio. There are no oars, or anything, you know, it was just an outboard motor on the back of a wooden canoe effectively out in the open ocean, upon arrival I hadn't organized properly, so that the authorities would know what we were doing. And hadn't really thought through the consequences of me turning up on a boat with a bunch of Africans in another country. In the end, they recorded my fax that we'd sent from the UK to tell them that we were coming as a tip path because it was mistranslated, and I ended up getting thrown in jail in Cape Verde for a lot of the fishermen for six days, which is an absolute nightmare, to say the least. And eventually we will get out on the sixth day because we hadn't actually committed any crime. And the fishermen were sent back to Senegal, they were actually flown back. We couldn't get back on their boat. So I had to find another way of getting back to the mainland. And that that took a long time about six weeks for me to escape from Cape Verde. And that really was the point where I realized I wasn't going to get this done in a year. It was going to be a nice thought because up to that point. You know, I've been to 89 countries at that point. It had been a simple checklist. It had been going around South America, the Caribbean, Central America, North America and Europe. And with a British passport, that pretty straightforward. Even in places in the Caribbean where there's no ferry service. There's lots of little boats running around islands and each each of the islands so close that it's only a overnight Sail from one island to the next. So this was something new. It was that point where I had to decide whether to continue on with the journey or just give up at that point. And I'm a bloody minded sword. So I didn't give. I continued on. I was eventually rescued from Cape Verde by a German guy called Milan and his French friend, Sebastian, they came over in a little sailboat from one of the other islands in the Cape Verde chain. And they picked me up and took me back to Senegal, I continued my journey. That was the biggest stumbling block at the beginning. And then Congo and lightning struck again, I was again arrested this time, no charge whatsoever,

Jason Moore 15:42
you're gonna getting arrested for not really doing anything wrong. Like one of your specialties now.

Graham Hughes 15:49
Again, I was held for six days, this time in this police station in labor, capital, and that that was most unpleasant. I think that was the point where I sort of put my head in my hands and thought, What the hell am I doing, they put me in the cell, they took my shoes and socks, they took my tarpan they took my glasses, so I can actually see just kicking in the cell wall of a dog. What on earth? I don't deserve this. And what infuriated me was how blase the police were, they were kind of like, what's your problem, where you moaning about that, you know, they didn't understand why I might be a little bit perturbed or upset that they were keeping me in a jail cell. And when I got out, I had to make the decision, whether I was going to finish this no matter what. And that's the decision that I made. And I was another three years after that on the road. So that resolve that the Congo put into me, helped me out in the end. Yeah, I

Jason Moore 16:45
suppose that going into something like this, it's so grandiose that you know, things are going to happen. But then reality hits pretty hard when you're sitting in a jail cell and you literally don't know if you're going to I'm just putting myself in your shoes, which I don't even think you had shoes on at the time. When you were in jail. You know, you don't know if if or when you're going to get out. You have no idea what's going to happen. It's that's pretty scary stuff. Man. To

Graham Hughes 17:09
be honest with you at the time, I was too angry to be scurred. I was just really test I just asked him like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this to me? I was kicking the door with bare feet and just generally being an uncooperative prisoner. And I watched the movie the lives of others German movie about the Stasi in East Germany, just after I got out of jail, really. And then it's the guy says, top interrogator for the secret police. And he says when they're guilty, they tend to be quiet. And when they're innocent, that's when they kick up a false and start being a problem to you. And I thought that's absolutely right. Because when you're innocent when you've done absolutely nothing wrong, then you're not thinking in the back of your head. Well, you know, it's a fair cop, I suppose I kind of deserve this. You start freaking out. I think that's just the human condition, this raging sense of injustice that you normally was the end of a move.

Jason Moore 18:02
Yeah, I don't know if you're a glutton for punishment during this trip or just a sucker for adventure, or perhaps both.

Graham Hughes 18:10
Those were the low points and and I think that they were in in the minority, massively. Most of the time I was having a ball, I was staying with local people, I was traveling on public transport. So everywhere I went, I was chatting to local people, and just get to see these places for myself, even some of the places that I just passed through and, and wished to return to in next few years. It was just an experience. And when I talked about the high points of my journey, I've got so many in my head. I got to watch a space shuttle take off from Florida, one of the last space shuttles, I got to climb the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt, we broken in the middle of night and climb that system that wants to do since I was a child. And we didn't get caught on like those bushes. I swam with this lake of jellyfish in Palau. And in the Pacific, these jellyfish have evolved not to stink, they've got no predators on their enemies. And they make their energy through photosynthesis. And so there's enough food for everybody. So this this, this lake was billions of these jellyfish in the swimming and it's like being on another planet like another world. I had a close encounter with a with an orangutan, in Borneo with a lemur in Madagascar. There was just so many experiences along the way that were just incredible. I think one of my favorite was, when I was in Papua New Guinea, I was taken out on a boat, one of the people who work for the shipping company that I was eventually going to take from happening in the Solomon Islands and on to Australia, over to an isolated tribe that there was no road to get to this tribe. In Papua New Guinea. I got to stay a couple of days with them. And that was an amazing experience where I was the only Westerner in this tribe and you know, I slept there and ate there. It was fantastic. It was just a real experience and something that I probably never thought would happen beforehand and But afterwards, it becomes so obvious you're in poverty. Get it. Of course, you got to stay with the drive. I could wax lyrical all night about the different places that I've visited and the wonderful things that happened to me while I was there.

Jason Moore 20:09
When you were in poppin, beginning with the tribe, did they accept you in after a little while? How did that whole dynamic work? Did you just show up there? Tell me a little bit more about that.

Graham Hughes 20:18
There were two occasions actually on stage with tribes. And both times I was introduced by a member of the tribe who will be a chief or chief sort of the tribe. And when you think tribe, you think everyone's sitting around a campfire. And it wasn't quite like that. It was more a village, a town because it was a road down the middle. Although it wasn't connected to any other roads, and houses, well built house, dive aside, and then your kids playing on the beach, and there's a church there. There was a school, it was great to watch people sort of do their everyday lives guy took me out of the dugout canoe, and we got to see the women who go out and they collect mud crabs from the mangroves. And the men go out and they fish during the day and children goes to school. Then when I got back to the main city of Olay, that weekend, they were having the Moromi show, which is rabies is the area of the province that layers within they invite the Highlanders and people from all over Papua New Guinea to calm for big SingSing which is you know, big honkin dance routine. And each tribe has their own language, they have their own way of dressing, costumes and their own songs. But it was just a fantastic, fantastic experience to be there. With all he is a warrior people with the makeup on there, and war paint and amazing, you know, bird of paradise feathers coming out their heads and stuff, it was just the beginning with a lot of trepidation and have to say this quite a dangerous place. If you're lucky. I think I'm quite lucky. It can just be so amazing. It'd be so otherworldly, you know, something that you wouldn't expect.

Jason Moore 21:48
I wanted to ask you a little bit I know this has obviously changed your whole life because you obviously have some celebrity now and then amongst travelers. I mean, you're like a superhero in a way. I mean, we're really, it's amazing what you what you got. Yeah, I mean, I know you're a humble guy. But you know, what you've done is truly an awesome accomplishment. I mean, I think it's inspiring on a couple levels. One is the Guinness record is great. But just I mean, the fact that you've done something that hadn't been done before. And also just for budget travelers, independent travelers, people listening to the show people like myself, you know, you did it on like 100 bucks a week, and you had this crazy goal. And just with what you've done, we don't have any excuses anymore to go anywhere, right?

Graham Hughes 22:28
Well, no, I mean, that's the thing. It's, I wouldn't want to be in the position where I say to someone, yeah, go to Papua New Guinea on your own, you'll be fine. But I would like people to travel more. And I would like people to get out of the comfort zone a little bit more, and go and see the world because one of the things I grew up with, and I'm sure you grew up with loads of news stories, telling you the worst of what was happening.

Jason Moore 22:50
The world isn't as scary as people think. Yeah,

Graham Hughes 22:52
it's a case of just picking where you go. Somalia is a good example of this, because Somalia used to be three different countries. It used to be Italian, Somalia, British, Somalia, and French, Somalia and French Somalia is now Djibouti, and British, Somalia, and Italian Somali, all got lumped together as what we now call Somalia, but the region of British Somalia, which calls itself Somaliland, is remarkably peaceful. They have their own currency. They have their own government, they have their own flag. And they have free and fair elections, which are quite rare for that region, you can visit Somaliland and the chances are, you'll be fine. You get to see a little bit of Somalia. You know, go and see the world. But make sure you do your research first, and pick the places that you want to see. And so long as there's not an active or prising going on there. You know, nine times out of 100, you'll be fine. Most countries aren't fighting, most countries will welcome you with open arms, especially places that don't get too many tourists. I found Central Asia like was Becca, Stan, and Kyrgyzstan and Iran are exceptionally friendly countries.

Jason Moore 23:57
Yeah, yeah, the media, like you said, it really can skew the way we perceive the world. It's not as dangerous as you think. And then obviously, when you're in these countries, meeting people on the ground, you realize they're, you know, we're all human beings. And we're all, you know, doing what we need to do. And I don't know, that's one of the beautiful things about traveling. And I want to pick your brain like crazy on a lot of the practical stuff, obviously, your budget overland guru. So I wanted to hear some more your tactics, I guess, and just some things that we as, you know, independent travelers, long term travelers can implement while we're on the road that you've learned in your vast experience. But first, I wanted to touch a little bit on water aid because I know you did some of this for water aid, which is a charity I know that's near and dear to your heart. So tell us a little bit about that and how we can get involved or help.

Graham Hughes 24:46
The remarkable thing is, you know, in this day and age is over 2 million children who die every year through lack of access to safe water, clean water. This happens mostly in developing countries, but it's something so simple But it should be a basic human rights. And there are people working very hard around the world to actually eradicate this kind of needless suffering. They reckon by about 2030. If we all band together, every child on the planet will have access to clean fresh water, which means so much. I mean, it's not just for the sake of children who are dying, it's also to free up women who has to walk, because usually, the matriarch of the family is the one who has to walk four miles to a dirty well, to get the water each day. And that takes a lot of her time up. And so she can't do anything else with her time. So it's important with other things, knock on effect, like the emancipation of women, is something that I think and you know, we're in the 21st century now. And we've all got mobile phones and laptop computers and things. And it just makes me think, you know, we have to really get the basics right, as well, you know, it's all well and good having this amazing technology that we have these days. But if we can't get clean water to people, then we're not doing our job right at the end of the day. And one of the cool things about water aid, as opposed to say, some other charities, Not to disparage them. But one of the problem, I think we do have with charities is sometimes somebody goes to the wrong place. And sometimes the charity will come in, they'll dig a well, or they'll build a toilet, and then they'll leave the village. But the problem is the villagers don't really know what to do with this toilet thing that they've been given. It's not been part of their culture, it's not been part of their life. And so they think, Oh, well, it's a nice little place to keep some goats when it's when it's raining. So people actually value what they've got, whilst water aid and other water and engineering charities, like Engineers Without Borders, over in America and in Canada, do they actually go into villages, and they first of all, explain why the people should have toilets, and then they helped to build them. So it's not just a case of dropping some charity down on people and walking away. It's a case of people actually building their own thing. We find time and time again, that when people have to work for something that they tend to charge a bit more they tend to look after, I'd love to see a day when no child on this planet dies of diarrhea. I mean, it's it's ridiculous. It's one of the most easily preventable and I'm most easily treated, cheaply treated disease in the world, it's not something that's long term, it's gonna cost a few pence in terms of sugar and salt solution, and it can really save a child's life. So that's why I picked water aid. Because I think for any backpackers who have been somewhere like India and had to deal with the toilets, it's something that gets very close to our hearts. My attitude is, well, I just have to use this toilet for a few days or a few weeks, that people who live here I have no choice. And that's what I wanted to help change. When I was traveling, we raised over $10,000. Along the way, when my book about my journey comes out, hopefully later this year, a quarter of the proceeds from NAFTA are going to go towards your aid as well. So hopefully, we'll end up making quite a lot of money for

Jason Moore 27:59
great and I'll link out to your page. But where do we find you as far as we want to donate through you to WaterAid

Graham Hughes 28:05
if you go into the Odyssey expedition.com page, there's a link on the right hand side or you can go straight to justgiving.com. Forward slash the Odyssey expedition. And that'll take you to that just giving donation page. We're not asking for boosters, we're not asking for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. But just as someone who enjoys reading my blog, so enjoys watching the videos, like to throw sort of five $10 into the past, it honestly could save a child's life.

Jason Moore 28:29
I have enjoyed your videos and your blog. So I'll be sure to go ahead and do that. Yeah, I appreciate everything you're putting out there. Oh, your

Graham Hughes 28:36
case, JSON B to one 100.

Jason Moore 28:38
You got no problem, man. I'm committing to that right now. You can hold me to it, man, you can help me do it. Now I want to switch gears to practical stuff. Because you're part of the show. Obviously, it's it's inspiring to hear about the journey you've so much experience with your traveling that I feel like obviously, we have something to learn from you that we can use in our travels, whether it's a three week trip or a three month trip, or you know, four year trip like you did. So just wanted to ask you a few questions that maybe you could provide some practical advice for us hitching ride on cargo ship. Something I've heard about I know exists, but I have no experience with it. I'm just wondering how you go about that?

Graham Hughes 29:14
Well, it's tremendously difficult. And I think those days of people just saying up a port and saying, Hey, can I get on board this ship? And the captain saying okay, well, you can swap the decks and you can come along them over. I mean, it's very difficult to do that maybe in some parts of the Caribbean and in Africa, and possibly in some parts of the Middle East. It might still be possible. But by and large ports are like airports now, you know, they've got a big perimeter fence around them. You can't just be walking up and asking to get on the ship. What I did is I approached it this way out right to the charter of the ship, which would be one of these big companies like mercy or CMA CGM. I'd looked up their timetables to find out which ships were going in the direction I want. to go, and I made sure that my plans are pretty free and easy, you know, I'd have a month window or something to to get out the country. And I had, say three different options of where to go. And then off the back of that, I'd write to them and say, Hi, my name is Graham Hughes, I'm traveling to every country in the world. It's my dream, and I'm raising money for the charity water aid. And I'm also making a TV show that screening on the National Geographic adventure channel, because I had those kinds of credentials, I got a lot more positive responses than I would have gotten, if I was just the chancellor, if I just said, Hey, I just want to get in your ship. And also, one thing that I found very quickly was, you know, I didn't have a staff working for me back in England or anything, but what I'll do is get one of my friends to write on my behalf sometimes as like the email and say, Can you send this from your accounts. And then it was I am writing on behalf of Graham Hughes, British adventurer, blah, blah, blah. And that sort of elevated position a little bit with the with the chartering company. And then it was just a case of making some phone calls with a local agent, and trying to get on board. And to do that, I needed permission, not just from the charters, but also from the owners of the vessel, and the local agents, and the captain of the ship. So sometimes one of those four would say no, and I'd be waiting, you know, to go outside the port and roll my bags, and they say, No, you can't get on board. Okay, back to square one. The trick is to try to dry and try again, these ships have to have empty cabins on board, usually the captain and the crew. And the officers are quite happy to have a supernumerary and extra personnel onboard. It's not a huge problem for them. But I think a few shipping companies sort of look at it as an inconvenience, especially in terms of insurance, like if you're going to fall overboard or get ill, and they have to change course, because of you. My little bit of advice for fellow travelers is offer some money. So you'll pay $50 a day or something like that for your room and board. And also, when you write into these companies, and you're looking for who to write to try and find someone who's got the title captain, because that means that there'll be a little bit older, they would have served on a ship. And now they've sat me retired and living in Wellington or in Paris or London or somewhere, and they're still working for the company, but in an office. So have that kind of sailor's mentality of Yeah, sure, we get off board a bit more than someone who's straight out of university never been at sea and just sort of thinks this is going to be an inconvenience, I can't be bothered. But even with sort of my credentials, and and the fact that I had already developed a good working relationship with a few of these big companies, I still found it difficult. And sometimes I'll be in a situation in which you know, nine companies out of 10, returning me down flat and say we just do not take passengers at all. The other thing to look at is a few companies. I think CMA CGM are doing this actually offering cargo cruises now, where you come on the ship as as a passenger, and you actually pay for it, but they're a little bit expensive. So I would still at least try to get down the hitchhiking route first. And from my experience, the smaller companies are usually easier to get a yes from. But once you get one of those big companies behind you like mercy, CMA, CGM, Hamburg sword, something like that, they can usually help you time and time again, the guys at Pil, who are based out of Singapore were absolutely fantastic. And they helped me get from Papua New Guinea to Australia, Australia, all around the Pacific Islands to New Zealand, and then even from Australia, up to Taiwan, so to get to Palau and Federated States of Micronesia, so they were, they were incredible. Oh, and they also helped me get from Singapore to Sri Lanka, which is one of the last countries I needed to get to PIL were amazing. And so it's just a case of go online, do some research and look at some timetables, find out where the ships are going. I don't think anyone would reply to an email that said, Hey, I'm thinking of going somewhere where your ships going question mark. It's tough at work.

Jason Moore 34:15
Right? I mean, everything you just said is super actionable and totally doable. And for listeners that don't necessarily have Graham's credentials, I mean, you can still create your own credentials in a way you know, I don't think you necessarily have to be traveling to every country in the world. And I know you're definitely not the only person that's gone on cargo ships, but it is possible but I think that your advice was really actionable great stuff.

Graham Hughes 34:37
You should you should have a mission you should be able to say I'm doing it because not just I'm doing it because it sounds like fun. I mean, even if it's I'm mortally afraid of flying or something and I I've got to get to Europe for some reason. I mean,

Jason Moore 34:51
not some kind of some kind of condition,

Graham Hughes 34:54
creative in your reasons for wanting to get on a cargo ship. But I've got to say it's a fun fascinating experience. These ships are amazing machines and just being cut off from the outside world for a few days, because you've got no Taliah, you've got no radio, you've got no cell phone reception, got no internet. So being cut off in that way is strangely liberating in this day and age. Absolutely.

Jason Moore 35:16
I'm sure it's when you got a lot of writing done to. How do you avoid giving bribes? Because I noticed that something when I was reading through the Odyssey expedition that seems like you're pretty against that. And what's your advice to avoid giving bribes to officials to get through? Is it just being stubborn or

Graham Hughes 35:33
octal? Smilow just be very cheerful. Drop really helps if you're born in Liverpool, especially if you've traveling around Africa, because Liverpool Football Club is really big in Africa, someone asked to see my passport and it says place of birth Liverpool, they all smile, Liverpool. Yeah, we love the club. That out, not so much in the French speaking countries. Nevermind, I think being a little bit stubborn, and at least playing dumb a little bit. But I think that the main thing is to smile, if you can try and get a little bit of rapport going between you and the guy who's obviously going to ask you for a bribe, because you know, it's obvious, they're going to do it. So it can work wonders. Another thing is, I don't smoke and I didn't really carry cigarettes with me while I was showing him around. But some other backpackers have said, they always carry a packet of cigarettes, if officials you know, not been very helpful, they offer them a cigarette, and that help oil the wheels if you like not to actually pay a bribe, but then you'll be giving him lung cancer. So you know, it's, I didn't want to do that. It can be very frustrating and very annoying, especially if you're in a rural area. There's no ATMs around, you've only got a set amount of money on you, you know, I'd always have $100 Bill hidden not my person somewhere in case of emergencies. But I didn't have to get that out to buy a $1 loaf of bread or something. So it's an official took on my change. I was kind of like, great, what do I do now? Well, I'm going to change this money, who's going to change it, they're gonna give me a terrible exchange rate. So there are a lot of knock on effects of having to pay all these bribes all the time, my advice would be have a pack of cigarettes and maybe just have a wad full of $1 bills or something that you can just pop out. I actually had two wallets with me as well. I had one that was stuffed full of $1 bills and had some expired credit cards, and if anyone ever booked me out to give them that, but I was never booked. So happy days.

Jason Moore 37:28
There you go, you went to cross 201 international borders, and you never got mugged. So we can't use that as an excuse anymore, right?

Graham Hughes 37:38
I didn't think ill I just did very well, I think I'm just very lucky. But another thing you can do, talking about the wallet trick is take your wallet out and have a wallet that's got nothing in it. And just open it and go like just have $1 and just say this is all I've got. And it goes to the town and get some more money I'm sorry, I just and then I could probably take you $1 And go I'd go on go on go on. So if you make it a little bit more hassle for them to just go through with the operation and made them force them to actually say what they want because a lot of the time it's kind of unspoken, you know, it's kind of they just sort of rub the thumb against the forefinger and

what you mean by that? Well, do you want to join some salsa to Chico you're in jail for a week in Congo.

Jason Moore 38:23
Yeah, we don't want it's especially after reading your article that wasn't

Graham Hughes 38:27
being cheeky. That was being grumpy. Basically I got pulled over that the cops obviously wants to bribe and I was just I was just too tired and annoyed and I was like you're not getting any money off me go away. You know, come on. I've got to go into town. I've got a pizza ready for me and I've got this thing

Jason Moore 38:43
which six days later you got to sing it after being in prison I guess so. I guess that just goes along with your advice to just be try to be cheerful no matter what your mood. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So outside of couchsurfing, which I know used a lot. What other share economy type of services do you recommend or what other you know techniques you recommend just for keeping on a budget.

Graham Hughes 39:03
I use couchsurfing a lot. And I made a lot of really good friends with a couchsurfing network and have any real real bad experiences with it. I know Airbnb are very good, but you don't have to pay for that. One of the easy tricks that you can do is get on a overnight boss accommodation for the night. And also, if you can sort of walk in if you're not too scruffy and you have your big backpack with you, you usually walk into some quite nice hotels and just make out that you're staying there and ask the concierge if you can just use the you've got a meeting and you need to freshen up and you go into the private bathroom. They have a nice warm shower in the middle of Kinshasa or somewhere. There's a few little tricks you can do. You know when I was in Sri Lanka, I stepped on the beach a few times not because of the nominee where to stay actually did it was just that half and there was some lounges out there and it was quite nice to sleep on the beach. No one stole my things. So

Jason Moore 39:55
yeah, I mean, I've definitely crashed outside and numerous places around the world and I It's the best.

Graham Hughes 40:01
Obviously, there is a difference various if you're female, I think he probably won't get away with us. But one of the good things about couchsurfing, for instance, and some of these other things, you can choose your gender of the people that you're staying with. So if you're a female traveling on our own, you can just stay with other females, which a lot safer. And also, you've got someone waiting for you in each town and city that you go to. And if you don't turn up, they're going to start wondering why you haven't turned up and can start raising alarm bells, it just adds a little layer of safety. And when I get the example of Congo, it was actually Christoph, the guy who was supposed to be couchsurfing with who raised the alarm that I had been taken in by the police and actually told the British Embassy after my experience in Cape Verde, I carried two mobile phones with me, you know, both of them were just very cheap Nokia as I gave the police one, and the other one I texted, so it came up on my Twitter account, I've been arrested. And he came to the police station, and he was trying to sort things out to the police at me. And when I did finally escape, and they got out, I got to stay with him. So I can't say enough good things about couchsurfing and those other networks. And I know there's a few people who have had bad experiences on it. But if you're sensible, and you research the people that you're staying with, and you make sure that they're accredited, and they've been vouched for I think most people will have a whale of a time,

Jason Moore 41:25
you know, your safety conscious carrying two mobile phones and two wallets. And those are all great tips, particularly if you're traveling through more dangerous areas, a little

Graham Hughes 41:34
pouch that stuffed down Hungama belts, a little poem, a belt that you couldn't see. And then as my pants basically and walked around, and I had my emergency money in it, it had a little pen knife in it had Medici credit cards that I could use for an account that I didn't touch about traveling on, there was a problem. So I mean, that the worst thing in place in case everything went horribly wrong. But luckily, I you know, even when I was arrested karma stuff back. So I was I was always on that front. I think another thing is you shouldn't have flashy things on you, obviously. And you see people traveling around and they've got the latest canon seven day and they're in the middle of, you know, a farm in Namibia. And you're thinking What what are you doing? Actually, Namibia is like safe as Democratic Republic of Congo. And you think, you know, someone might come along and say, Oh, I love that, especially if you're on your own. So what I tend to do my HD camcorder, it's pretty, it didn't look like much even though it's it's quite a good camera. I kept it in a scruffy little bag, that was a car key bag that was all sort of wrapped in everything. My laptop was in another bag that had the names of all these countries written on it. So it just looked like an old school bag that I had just had pens and pencils. And it's, and I think that as well, sort of the shovels.

Jason Moore 42:56
Yeah, it's pretty scary, because you know, you got like, basically, this is your, you're documenting all this. And this is, you know, your life, your media, and your writing, and all that stuff. So I'm sure it was pretty scary to make sure that you didn't lose all your work and all the video you shot.

Graham Hughes 43:11
The great thing at the moment is we have the cloud. And so we can upload all of our photos and videos we've been able to do with photos for a while, but not with videos. And these dating apps are 25 gigabytes. And if you've got someone else who's connected the same cloud at home, they can download your stuff to free up the space. So every day, you can make sure your videos are kept in a secure location. And that's something well worth doing. I remember, you know, I started backpacking back in the 90s. And I remember the horror stories of people, you know, with their rolls of film, and that they've taken 26 of them and they'd left them in a bag in the taxi on the way to the airport, or they'd put them through a weird old x ray machine and it wiped them all and and so this day and age that is an excuse for losing your cherished pictures and videos and things like that, when they make the best fermenters I'd rather have a wonderful picture of me in one of these countries, with a few locals having a good laugh than a better chintzy thing to put on my mantelpiece, right.

Jason Moore 44:14
Is there a cloud service you recommend quickly? Was there one used or

Graham Hughes 44:17
No, when I was traveling, the cloud wasn't a big thing. What I used to do was I filmed on tape at the time, it wasn't an SD card, I recorded it onto these little Western Digital hard drives that I had. And then I'll send them once at once had a collection of sort of 10 tapes, I would send them by FedEx or DHL, DHL, pretty good actually, to Australia for the TV show. And then after the TV show ended I'll send to my parents in the UK. So even if they did go missing or whatever, you know, I still have a copy. I did really well. I didn't lose a single tape.

Jason Moore 44:47
Thankfully. You've been through a lot of it. But common

Graham Hughes 44:50
did break a few times. And unsurprisingly, some of the countries that you think wouldn't be able to fix your camera usually the best place to go to fix it. I had a problem with a screw In brokes, I couldn't see, I could see what I was filming for the viewfinder, but I couldn't actually operate the buttons to make it do anything because it's touchscreen. And I took it to a little place in Nepal. And they charged me $30 and fix it. The next day, I had the same phone the exact same problem in Australia a couple of years afterwards, I was only in Australia for a couple of weeks at the time, took it into the repair shop. And they said that'll be $170. And you can come back in six weeks time. And I was like, you're like,

Jason Moore 45:31
I'm gonna go fly to Nepal right now. You couldn't get on a plane, I guess. Fly to

Graham Hughes 45:42
ask around. And this is another thing you know, the amazing hospitality I was shown by people around the world just really bowled me over. And we have this sort of fear of, of strangers, fear of others fear of foreigners. And it's so unfounded, most people in the world are just like us, they're just chugging along in life. And you know, they just wanna have a good time and meet the right person and be paid a decent wage for what they do. They're not out to cause you harm, they're not out to get you. And you could be anywhere in the world and stand there lost your map on the street corner, and someone will come over and say, you're like, can I help, what you're looking for was I found remarkable was places in Africa where people had very, very little will come over and share their food with me or, you know, just want to have a chat with me or even just put me in the right direction. And that was that was just phenomenal. And I although I was traveling alone, and I never really felt lonely, I didn't feel like I was you know, it was me against the world. It was more kind of me with the world kind of pushing me forward. And that was a very really positive experience.

Jason Moore 46:50
Yeah, those are the most beautiful moments, I think of traveling, just the real human connections you make on the ground, you know, you were on the ground, so to speak more than anybody I've ever spoken with. So you probably had a lot of opportunity for some amazing interactions, not having taken any planes anywhere. You know, that's just a whole other unique experience. And where, where would you love to return? Because you've been to all these places. This is just, you know, what's your one or two standout spots?

Graham Hughes 47:16
Everywhere? Palau, Ethiopia, I think asker Iran, I only spent about half an hour in Panama, I got to the border, and they wanted an onward ticket. And I said, Well, I haven't gotten onward ticket and said, Well, can you go to the place down the road and get yourself an onward ticket? And I said, Okay, so I walked into Panama, got my picture at the thing and bought a coke and then walked back out again not getting the passport stamp. But I've I've just won an island Amar. And I'm going to be living there for next year. So I'm gonna go back I'm gonna go back to pretty much everywhere that I went to I'm only I'm only set for So got a few left in me. And I'd love to go some more time.

Jason Moore 48:01
Tell me a little bit about this island you won and how did you win it?

Graham Hughes 48:05
Well, it's so they came into the province out of one an island and then we make Tommy looked up from the Wii and just sounds like something that you would say Graham, okay. was one of my videos, which is inspired by Cesar Koyama is video one second every day, which a lot of people would say not now it's a brilliant thing to do. I realized I had one second footage of me in each country from all of the footage I got from my channel. So I put together a video called one second every every country that got a lot of viewers over the summer. So I've had over a million views on YouTube, which is incredible on that there was an advert for this SOS Ireland thing by Samsung phones. And they were going to send 16 contestants out to this tropical island and it just off the coast of Puerto Rico. And if you want you want $100,000 towards an island experience of your choice. So because a long story short, I want and the what do you want to do? Do you want to do want to buy a plot of land in Tahiti? Do you want to stay on Necker Island, Richard Branson for a couple of days. I'm like, No, I don't want to live on a deserted island for a year like Robinson Crusoe. And everyone's looking at me like, Okay, then we'll make that happen. We got in touch with islands broker, this guy who runs private islands online.com. He does the TV show islands sponsors, which is a daytime TV show over in the States. And it's a bit like, you know, bargain hunters, property hunters or whatever, but it's a tropical island. And he put me on to the guy who sold his life on eBay about five years ago, this guy called Ian OSHA, and he sold his entire life. He sold his house, his car, his motorbike, everything in it in one loss on eBay. And you went off traveling and did 100 Amazing things 100 weeks, and she's a fellow Brit like myself, so I think I think it's something in the water over here. Hi And then Panama and he bought it a few years ago. And since then he's put a house there and solar panels and, and these chickens and a dog and all this kind of stuff, but he wants to move on. He wants to start traveling around the states and doing inspirational speaking. And so I came in, I said, Well, look, I can't afford to buy the whole island, but can I buy a section of it, you know, go in for a portion of it, and have exclusive use of the island for a year. And then when you do come to sell it outright, I get my third back. And he said, Yeah, sure, that sounds like a great idea. So that's what we're doing and march 22, me and my girlfriend leave here, these wet and windy England for the Panama. And we're going to try and make a go of it. It should be quite interesting. We're going to call the Ireland ginger Ireland spelt Jn ja like Ninja, but ginger, because I'm a ginger and my girlfriend's ginger too. It's going to be my next adventure. I think it's a fifth thing after going everywhere to spend a year going absolutely nowhere. Because once I'm on the island, I really can't leave the island, I've got animals to look after I've got you know, art clubs to attend to and things like that. And the idea of the will make it as self sufficient as humanly possible. I mean, I want to get to a point where we can go for months without having to go back to the mainland for supplies,

Jason Moore 51:14
totally living off the grid and just living off the land, basically. Yeah.

Graham Hughes 51:18
And using sort of high technology and low technology as well. There's this amazing little stove for the bio light stove, and you put tweaks in it and burn it and it heats a little element so you can cook your food on it smoke lessly. But it's also got a USB jack, so you can charge your mobile phone off it. So you can charge him for fire, which I think is brilliant. It's just been on online and just look at all these things that you can get. So I like the idea of going somewhere and starting a fire with a flint and having to you know, eat eggs that are delivered by the chickens in the morning, but also having this technology that allows us to charge on mobile phones get online and share our experiences with the world.

Jason Moore 51:56
Ginger Island. I love it. Are you going to keep writing about this on the Odyssey? expedition.com? Or can we follow you with all this stuff?

Graham Hughes 52:03
The object's position.com is kind of close now that that's over the complete store is there if you want to read it. And it's free for anyone it's 600,000 words altogether. So it's a bit of an epic one just reading it. There's my website is grand David hughes.com. And from there that's going to be the platform that we market ginger Island as another adventure for people to follow. On the way I see it as you know, I like I like technical on the adventure and I'm not going to charge anyone and you know, they can read my stuff if they want. They can watch my videos if they want it's gonna cost them anything.

Jason Moore 52:35
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check it out. I'm curious to see what you share there. And, man, you've done so many amazing things already. And seems like you're you kind of keep going I love a love that your mates are just looking at from their beer like yeah, that sounds about right. That's that's so funny, man. I don't know what you're gonna do after after this island thing. Um, I know you're working on this book. And you know, if you do tour through the states, and I happen to be in Colorado, you got a couch here, my friend.

Graham Hughes 53:03
Oh, thank you. That'd be great. I mean, this is something that I intend to do to go to all the states of America without flying because obviously, the main line state's gonna be pretty simple. But then I'm also trying to get to Hawaii and different feeling very adventurous. So for to Rico, American Samoa Guam, so I plan in there as well. Just for giggles. I'm into most of them already. But I'll get up to Guam and they wouldn't let me off the boat because I didn't have a visa for America. That made me very Oh, really? Yeah. They just changed the visa regulations. And they said, Oh, no, it's not a visa. You need that thing that's like a visa, but it's not a visa. And I said is that the thing that you have to supply your photograph and a load of information and have to pay for it? Before you come to the country and the like? Yeah, that sounds a lot like a visa. No, no, no, really? Yeah. Make our British friends have a visa to come to the stage though. welcome anytime. You're just not allowed off this boat. So I had to just in Guam I just got on the boat all day. Never got to see Guam because a chip. But now I've got my American visa. So I can come and go now for the next three years until I get put on the NSA is most wanted list or something either public listening to this.

Jason Moore 54:15
Right? Well, man, we love what you're doing. And it's truly inspirational. I just really appreciate you taking time to share your story, but also all these amazing tips just for that we as travelers can use I think he gave us a lot of stuff today. I'm gonna put it on the show notes on zero travel.com. And I'm definitely going to be following you along. Like I said, you're welcome to crash here anytime if I'm around. Man, Graham, good luck on the island out there with your gal and I really appreciate your time and keep going brother. I love what you're doing. Brilliant. Thanks so much.

Three habit. Hope you enjoyed my conversation with Graham Hughes. You know, I think we're overdue for a catch up with Graham. Maybe having back on the show again since his trip, he's done a lot. I mean, I know he's writing books, but also he want an island. And he's been building some properties there where people can come and stay. It's off the coast of Panama. And he's become a bit of a political activist. So time to time to bring Graham back on. I'll give him I'll drop him a line, we'll see if we can get him back on the show for you. Now, I wanted to share three iconic overland trips that you might want to consider doing. And maybe you're inspired, extra inspired to do after hearing this episode Graeme today. First, a quick reminder, this episode did come from the archives. And if you want to access all of this year to travel archives, bonus episodes, exclusive content you never heard before, and also support the show, you can do that over at zero to travel.com/premium. For just $1, you can try it out. And with two clicks, you'll get access to this private feed with ad free shows. All the stuff I just mentioned, I have little mini series that you can listen to like how to quit your job and travel the world. One on International House sitting and loads more, check it out zero to travel.com/premium. You heard today's show, imagine what else is in there that you can dive into that you haven't heard and would appreciate you checking it out, and just your support for being a member over there. So thank you so much. Again, that's your travel.com/premium Thanks for being a member of this community. Appreciate your time. Now I did boil it down to these three iconic trips. And here they are. First one, Cairo to Cape Town. This is known as a pretty epic journey. I don't know anything about planning it. I did read somewhere that it could take a minimum of four months if you're doing it overland, on public transport, but that might be a little tight. And then I went to a really fun website. And if you've ever been to Rome to Rio, Rome to the number two Rio where you can look up different ways you can get from point A to B. And one of the ways they include on this Cairo to Cape Town journey is driving and they say it takes five days and 13 hours. So who knows. But I'm looking at the line right now from Cairo to Cape Town. Does that look like an epic journey or what? Really incredible. Now, the second over lands mini adventure if you want to compare it to Graham's, but still huge adventure. Very well known the Silk Road forced the old trade route that would link the west to the Middle East and Asia. And we've had guests on the past that have traveled parts of the Silk Road. Again, another epic journey to consider. And lastly, one that I'm super keen on is the Pan American highway from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska all the way down to the tip of South America, which will take you to Schwab to southernmost city in the world where I've been really amazing place in Tierra del Fuego, Argentina. And that is a journey I would love to do one day, that's probably at the top of my list. Now there are official parts of the Pan American highway. And then there's sort of the unofficial network, you can read all about it if you're curious. But that whole route, there is a very sort of classic overland route. So something to consider, I just wanted to give you a few different options, some itinerary, some ideas coming out of this because I think we look at something like Graham did, it really opens up our minds to what's possible for us. And maybe it's one of these epic adventures. It's on a lesser scale, but we can compare it to what Graham did. We can just know Hey, one person was able to do this. It just makes even these grand adventures that I just described, these three iconic overland journeys seem more attainable, doesn't it just by hearing Graham's stories, I just love that about the podcast and the guests that come on here. They really make me feel like the world is so accessible and that travel is just something we can get out there and do and we can do on any scale that we want. We're really limited by our minds and our thinking and the scales that we put ourselves on. So there you have it, I'm gonna leave you with a quote pulled a couple out of the quote drawer that I found recently. First one is from Lao Tzu who said music in the soul can be heard by the universe. I love that I'm keeping that on my desk your second one. Keep up and you will be kept up by Yogi Bhajan. Keep up and you will be kept up.

Keep up. Keep being kept up. Keep on keeping on. Love here. Thanks for listening. And I'll see you next time. Peace and Love

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