Zero To Travel Podcast

Richard Hammond 0:00
It's great to go away and have a great time. Just how can I do that just doesn't quite have the same kind of negative impact on the place I'm visiting on the atmosphere on carbon emissions. You know, there are many ways that you can travel now that reduce that and also positively impact on the place as a sort of net positive.

Jason Moore 0:17
That is our guest today, Richard Hammond, an expert on low carbon travel, eco holidays and sustainable travel and he is going to share plenty of those tips and strategies today so you and I can become a better more sustainable travel without hassle or getting overwhelmed really simple, straightforward stuff that we can use to just lessen our impact while still fulfilling our travel dreams. You're going to learn why you should work towards being carbon neutral when traveling tips for becoming a flexitarian. When traveling you'll hear what that is, which forms of travel have a lower carbon footprint, what is greenwashing and how to spot a truly sustainable company why being a green traveller is a state of mind the three golden rules to be more environmentally friendly on your next trip and much more. All that happening today. Plus, I want to give a shout out to somebody taking their first big step towards a life filled with more travel and they had to overcome some big things to make it happens one of the fellow listeners of the show so you'll hear that story and plenty of other goodies packed into today's show. So let's get into it. Shall we buckle up strap in. Thanks for being here. And welcome to the zero to travel podcast, my friend.

ad 1:40
You're listening to the zero to travel Podcast where we explore exciting travel based work, lifestyle and business opportunities helping you to achieve your wildest travel dreams. Now your host World wonder and travel junkie, Jason Moore.

Jason Moore 1:58
Hey, what's up, it's Jason with zero travel.com Welcome to the show. Thanks for hanging out letting me bring a little travel into your ears today. This is a show to help you travel the world on your terms to fill your life with as much travel as you desire, no matter what your situation or experience. How are you today, my friend, hope this episode finds you well. And you know, it's always a good sign when you have to go to the store to buy an adapter for charging things. And for plugging things in. I've got whom I can't right now, because I'm taking a trip soon, which is always a good feeling. And I do want to do what I can to cut down on my carbon footprint and be a more sustainable traveler. I think we all do. But the intention and the practical side of it is sometimes two different things, right. And it's kind of a balance, we talked about a lot of these things in the show today, you want to do the right thing, but it's not always easy. And then sometimes you just kind of rationalize the things you do as Okay, and maybe try to make up for it later. I don't know about you, but I can be a little guilt ridden sometimes when it comes to the traveling I've done and the environmental impact that has had. And I'd like to think I have offset that in other ways, by not owning a car for many years, for example, and things like that. But it's really hard to say I do think it's important to have this conversation to all be a part of this conversation as humans who share the planet and to do what we can, right. And how we can do that is by having some tools to work with having some simple tips. Nothing too overwhelming, just some practical strategies, some things to be aware of some things we can do and implement. So we can lessen our impact. And if all of us do, you know one or two of these things, imagine how that adds up as we travel over many years collectively. So that is why I wanted to put this show out. We can all try to become better travelers, we can do our parts. And even again, if we just take one thing and implement it. Let's do that together. So we can bless our impact. And I hope you enjoy this conversation. I do want to give a shout out to somebody in this community so you can stick around for that. I loved reading the story. And on the back end. I'll also share my favorite tip for being a more environmentally friendly traveler. It's a very simple one. Not something I do all the time, but when I do it, it feels great. One last thing before the interview I do want to remind you I have a premium private podcast feed that you can access at zero travel.com/premium And this is a way you can support the show help keep the lights on at the podcast but also get something amazing in return. I do bonus episodes each month I've got one coming up this month on how to make a living location independent living off your artwork. I I have a five part series coming out that's never been published before, all about International House sitting. And all of these bonus episodes, exclusive content, ad free shows, and all that is in this private feed. So if you go to zero to travel.com/premium, you can learn more, you can try it for just $1. And you'll also again, be supporting me and independent creator and getting something awesome in return, we'd love to welcome you into the community there. So if you've thought about, you know, hey, let me support a couple of my favorite creators. Hopefully, I'm one of them, maybe I don't know, for you know, the price of a cup of coffee a month. And you want to do something like that and get something cool. Zero to travel.com/premium. Thank you for taking the time to consider that and for listening to this podcast. Now let's slip and slide into this interview with Richard Hammond and I will see you on the other side my friend.

My guest today is the founder of the award winning travel website green traveler.co.uk. That's traveler with two L's and we'll leave that link in the show notes. He was previously the Guardians eco travel correspondent and travel editor of National Geographics green. He's also the author of a new book called The Green traveler, a conscious adventurer that doesn't cost the earth. Today, he's going to help us learn how we can plan a green trip and minimize our impact as travelers. Richard Hammonds, welcome to the zero to travel podcast, my friend, how are you today?

Richard Hammond 6:30
I'm very well, thanks for asking me on. I'm delighted to be here.

Jason Moore 6:34
Delighted to have you. And usually important topic, I wanted to start with kind of trying to figure out how you got into this line of work, because you've been doing this type of work for a while. I mean, I went on your LinkedIn and I saw in 1994, you were volunteering in the islands doing some research on I think coral reefs and things like that, like how far back does your work in sort of sustainability and climate change? And all of these topics that are so relevant now? Or were then at least there? They've got more awareness? Now? How long has this been a part of your life?

Richard Hammond 7:10
You know, it's been part of my life ever since I graduated, you know, from university, and I did a post grad in publishing. And one of the production courses I did there was the environmental issues facing the 90s. So it was so yeah, it was it goes back a long way. And of course, it's a lot of the issues we're facing today. We know the world was facing back then. And they just become a bit more further on and a bit more prescient and a bit more urgent, or a lot more urgent, we should say now, so yeah, it's really bad back then. And you I studied, I studied physiology, I was really interested in, you know, the sort of how things worked. And then did a post grad and publishing and I wanted to kind of communicate natural history and science and my first jobs were in publishing, for book publishers in natural history and travel publishing. And then then, I got to work on a book about the national parks of Malaysia, and went out to Borneo, Borneo parts of Malaysia, Saba, to look at Eco tourism there, which is still a very was a very nascent industry then. And that, you know, changed my world really, I saw how I met some fantastic people running brilliant examples of eco tourism, and particularly a plumber from the Isle of Man who was out in Western Australia to set up this eco beach with lots of the kind of local, Aboriginal indigenous people. And it was amazing. I just thought, this is the future of travel, it makes for a better experience. That's all I thought, I thought this is the future sort of community based tourism. And I came back and started writing about it and got a few got a few gigs, as it were, and went from there.

Jason Moore 8:49
Why did it take so long for the future to arrive? You know what I mean? Like, I feel like the media tried over and over again, to talk about climate change, and some of these issues and things like that. And that, as you just mentioned, you know, having a connection in terms of travel with the local community, the local culture, it just makes for a better travel experience. It just makes sense. So all of these things that we talked about now, as a part of, say, ego conscious travel, or whatever label you want to use, why did it take so long to get here?

Richard Hammond 9:20
You know, I think it's funny because some of the big tour operators like small group, adventure tour operators, like intrepid travel, and G adventures, they've been doing this for a heck of a long time. You know, and maybe they didn't shout about it early on, because, you know, it was kind of part of what they did. And the same for the kind of UK based organizations like Exelis and explore the interpreter base in Australia and do ventures in Canada, but they're all worldwide now. And I think that may be, you know, maybe there. I mean, the reason why those companies grew was because of the product they were offering with the sorts of things that people wanted and they were about going to low impact places community run initiatives that So what it was all about, and that that was seemed to be maybe the preserve of the small group adventure travel section, not mainstream travel. Yeah, right. And the reason why it's taken a long time to come because it's, it hasn't taken, it's taken a long time to get into the mainstream. And if you like, those small, niche sort of companies have grown really big. I mean, intrepid in GE ventures, a huge companies now. And it's almost as though those companies had to grow rather than mainstream travel, you know, took on those trips. But I think we see it across the industry now that we know, one of the issues of the travel industry is so fractured, you know, there's the hospitality section. And then there's the transport, there's the cruising, there's the, there's the travel sector, there's the trains, the buses, the planes, and then there's the, the tour operator side to it, you know, they're all quite generally they're quite separate. I mean, there are these sort of vertical integration, in some aspects of it, you know, where the big, the big companies own all stages of the, of the booking process. But, you know, a lot of it is quite, you know, disconnected if you like, so I think that hasn't helped, you know, in moving the agenda forward, because it's always like, well, it's someone else's problem.

Jason Moore 11:17
Right now, that's true. Yeah. And as individuals planning a trip, which we're getting into today, I mean, like you just described, hadn't thought of it that way. But you are taking this fractured environment. And if you're, if you're looking at it through the lens of, you know, I want to minimize my impact. As a traveler, I want to be a better traveler. Now, it's our job to kind of figure out all these pieces, and put them together in a way that makes sense for independent travelers, as you mentioned, there are companies that serve small group trips, and you can read about the things they do. And we're going to talk about greenwashing and things like that, because I want to get your advice on making sure you know, we we do our due diligence when it comes to that. But in terms of the independent travelers, that is that is a bit of a responsibility and a feat and it takes effort, right? I mean, that's what you're kind of here to help us with is to kind of figure out, what are some of the sort of the top line? easiest ways we can we can kind of do that, but I mean, what what are your thoughts on? Yeah, just independent travel through that lens, you know, that,

Richard Hammond 12:20
you know, you mentioned that, you know, I've been covering this for some quite some time since the early 90s. One of the things in writing this book in the last year is I realized, you know, I went back and sort of looked at all my notes and work that I'd done in previous decades, and then actually to enter, update it. And I realized now there are just so many more options, now it's so much easier to go green than ever used to be. So there are lots of ways lots of tools and and it's it cuts across all aspects of the holiday when right from the beginning, from where you're planning to going to where you're looking to book to what you pack in your luggage to how you travel out to the destination, where you stay when you get there, and what you do when you get there. So all elements of your trip. Now, there are options, the choices that you can make. Yeah,

Jason Moore 13:02
I want to start by giving a nod or maybe addressing perhaps the elephant in the room. Which is why should we travel in the first place? I always think this is unfair, because when I reflect back, you know, I did all this traveling Well, it's easy for you to say you've done all this traveling, and now you can sit back and I mean, that's not really fair, right? Shouldn't we just stay home? Like why? You know,

Richard Hammond 13:24
yeah, I'm so glad you raised this, because it's, you know, it's, it's the elephant in the room. And it's funny, actually, in the pandemic that we've all most of us experienced, you know, we've all been forced to not travel, and to discover the hyperlocal if you like and see what's on our doorstep, and I think a lot of people have discovered for the first time walks and places to go near to where they live. And I've realized that there are many more walks and places to go near where they live, that they still haven't seen, and they want to find out more. So I think, you know, if there's, if there's one thing that packed them, it has helped with the travel, it's actually see what's on our doorstep more appreciate what's on our doorstep. But I do think, you know, travel, you know, there's so many positives of travel, you know, just from a very sort of personal point of view of just getting away from where you are seeing another culture, getting under the skin of another country, and just seeing how it all works in it and you learn a lot about your own way of life by looking at other people's way of life. You know, I think that's a really powerful part to, to traveling. And also, I mean, it's I forget, it's just fun, isn't it? You know, just having those spontaneous moments, you know, with family and friends in a different place is enjoyable, and you know, and and if it can do good, then great as well. I think the problem is that we tried to look at is that you can have a great time but there are lots of ways in having a great time you can actually really hard on the place that you're visiting. I think we've got time to turn it around and think well I'm gonna go away. It's great to go away and have a great time. Just how can I do that just doesn't quite have the same kind of negative impact on the place that I'm visiting. On the atmosphere on carbon emissions, and, you know, there are many ways that you can travel now that reduce that and also positively impact positive, you know, on the place as a sort of net positive impact, whether that's through helping species, you know, survive. I mean, there is a little tourism can really help bring much needed money into conservation of wildlife, desperately needed wildlife that's, you know, being threatened by all sorts of reasons, all sorts of destructive forces. So there, travel can be a good thing. If it's done the right way.

Jason Moore 15:37
We love to travel people, if you're listening to this, obviously, you're you're a fan of travel, so we're probably not going to stop doing it, it's going to be a part of our lives. So why not get some education here and figure out some some things from you on how we can we can do it better in a way that's also like, I love the idea of, you know, even net positive and when you were talking about I know this might sound like a stretch for some people in my head. That's sort of how I like to think of it were like, Okay, on the whole, if we're traveling with a mindset where we're, you know, kind of learning about cultures, learning about the world diving in, we come back, perhaps as a better version of ourselves. Although maybe you can't make a direct correlation between being carbon neutral, and whatever good you do after traveling, because your mind has been open in a certain way. That might be that somebody has a very sort of, oui oui oui to some people, I don't know. But I do believe with the right mindset and coming back from a trip, you're changed. I like to think you're more of a global citizen, in many ways, you're more aware of some some things and some of the issues. And I do think overall, that might tip the scales in favor of balancing some of that out. Now, you can't say that, you know, you're buying a certain amount of carbon credits, and eliminating you know, it from that flight, but I mean, what yeah, what are your thoughts on that? You understand what I'm saying? It's, you know, I

Richard Hammond 17:04
think it's actually comparing apples with pears, isn't it?

Jason Moore 17:06
It's hard. I know, I know, it's a stretch, but at the same time, it's, like, it goes back to just there being value in travel in and of itself. Right. So you should not eliminate, not look to eliminate that but improve it.

Richard Hammond 17:18
Yeah, I think, you know, I think there's different levels of, of traveling and the impact that you have, and I think that, you know, dressing things like being we're very casual, we become very casual about flying, for instance, you know, flying, but you know, although there are lots of no frills airlines around now, it's still quite expensive for a lot of people. But for equally for, for some people, it's incredibly cheap. And I think that we have to look at I think that understand that, you know, flying off to New York for one weekend, and then you know, on a shopping trip, and then going to Milan three weeks later for another shopping trip, surely that has to be kind of looked at and think well, actually, do we really need to be doing that, given the destruction that flying is contributing to? I mean, it's not the only contribution to climate to carbon emissions. But it's part of the mix. And, you know, and I think that we have to address that issue. First and foremost, you know, about the, you know, we're not saying don't fly, I mean, the world is gonna continue to fly, fly is going to get greener eventually. But right now, where we are, it is a big polluter. And we have to kind of address that. And I think that, you know, on the other hand, tourism can be very positive, how can we use our flight to the best effect? And I think that, you know, if you're gonna fly, I think it's an understanding that actually, we are causing some pollution here. How can we actually somehow address that by the types of holiday that we have when we get to the destination? And if that means doing something that's good for community, local community empowerment, or climate justice or biodiversity conservation? That's all well and good, it's very hard to kind of, you know, make that equilibrium between the two and equal those things out. But I think that is that understanding that will actually I'm going to try and do some good because I imply

Jason Moore 19:06
Yeah, it's tough to because it's, we all have our own justifications for things right as travelers, let me use a real world example because I'd love your feedback on this. I am planning a trip with my family. My I have two small kids and they don't get to spend a lot of time in the US with their grandparents because I live in Norway. And so we are going to be flying to Florida and spending a little over a month to be with them to do things and all that stuff. So my justification is what you just heard well, let me Well, first of all, yeah, I'm aware of that carbon impact. I don't feel great about it, but at the same time, I want my kids to see their family. Also, I am going to one destination and coming back so we're not taking like many flights around so there's that that's a that's a good thing. I feel we're gonna be contributing and guests to the local economy. I don't know if Florida needs more contribution or if this New Worlds need more more contribution to their economy. But, you know, as a real world example, this is me saying, Okay, well, I understand this impact. Would it better be better if I just stayed home? Yes. But at the same time as like a father, I want my kids to see their grandparents. And but that's no small flight from Europe to to America. So yeah, I just want to hear your thoughts on that. Again, there's no necessarily right answer. But people have

Richard Hammond 20:27
proposed a flexitarian approach to flying like sort of vegetarianism, where you don't necessarily give up meat altogether. But you just eat a lot less meat. And I think that it's the same thing, you could apply that to flying there. Yeah, if you have, you want to go to your family who you haven't seen for a long time, you want to give your children a great experience, you want to go to some big family event, whether it's a funeral, or a wedding, or whatever it is, you know, I think that people can continue to fly. But I think that so you go to Florida one year, and you think, Well, next year, perhaps we'll go somewhere a bit closer to home works, but we'll explore more of, you know, Sweden and Denmark on Finland, you know, whatever, Omoro Norway, and I think there's, you know, and maybe there was a model produced over three years, you sort of look at one long haul flight, couple of mediums and a short haul or something like that, we'll try and kind of mix it up like that, rather than automatically clicking for the long haul flight every year. And in some cases, every holiday people click for the long haul. Option, you know, I think trying to trying to balance it like that. Imagine if someone flew every holiday, and then they decided actually, every other holiday we're gonna fly they've immediately half eating. And I think that's, that's where we need to be and it's about personal responsibility isn't I think there's you say there's no real, total solution to it. Unless, you know, there's carbon emission, the embedded carbon emissions and everything we do is being calculated and we can assess what we pay and how much carbon emissions that's going to be. We're, we're a long way off from that. So I think it comes down to personal responsibility and what you feel comfortable with, I don't want to dictate what people should do, because it's up to people's own responsibilities. And, and it comes back to your own carbon footprint as well, for instance, at home, you know, how well insulated is your house? You know, how, how do you drive, you know, everyday to work in a petrol car, there's all those other things. And I think a lot of people who, you know, live very green lives, you know, and then and then want to then go away and travel and they say, Well, we've been eating, how much? Can we afford to go away traveling on airplane, given how green we are looking at your total carbon footprint? And, you know, there's, we've looked at I mean, in the UK, for instance, the average is something like eight to 10 tonnes a year of carbon dioxide emissions. I mean, it's, and that's got to come down drastically, if we're going to really address climate emergency, you know, by heart by more than half. So I think that it's people understanding that I think that's the greatest issue is people understanding what their footprint isn't Pretenders, and how can they address that when they go on holiday and still continue to travel?

Jason Moore 23:09
Let's talk about the practicalities around that. And perhaps through through your book, and some of the content in there, around how to plan like green, more green trips, you can give us a framework to work within or some kind of parameters within which to plan I'm not sure if you can break it down that way or how you would go about explaining that. But if he was kind of want to walk us through maybe the types of questions we should ask ourselves because as you mentioned, that there's the fractured industry, but but all of those sort of core elements are a part of any trip, right? You got your accommodations, your flights, your food, your transportation, whatever, can you help us kind of figure out what how we should approach a trip from this,

Richard Hammond 23:53
the largest part means 70%. If we're just looking at carbon emissions, to start with that 70% 70 to 80%, on average of a holiday, the carbon emissions are in the getting there and back. So that first and foremost is the thing to address, you know, and to really address that. There's a step difference between flying and every most other forms of overland transport, you know, perhaps not SUV, cars, but most overland transport is a lot less, has a lot less emissions and fly. So if there's any way that you can possibly try and not fly to a destination, you really address that problem, you know, straightaway. You know, it's kind of probably easier in Europe to do that because there's a fantastic high speed rail network, the infrastructure for that has had massive investment over recent years. Slightly put on hold during the pandemic but it we're now seeing the fruits of that really happening now and lots of fantastic overnight sleeper trains coming on new services all the time. And it's just a lovely way to travel. The world the benefits of traveling by train and not have to worry about your baggage You know, wait, and not worrying too much about if you missed the train, you can get the next one. And you arrive in the city center right in the heart of the city center, you don't have to that sort of extra transfer in. You know, there's, it's just a lot less Hasley way to travel, you know, and I love also when you arrive, you know, a train station in another country, and you come up, you get to the platform off the train into the platform. And there are buskers, and there are bike racks, and you already feel like you're like traveling like a local. So you don't have to wade through duty free or get wait for your bags to be paid somewhere else to it. So you're addressing that is a fundamental thing I'd start with and then I think it then comes down to, you know, what are you? Where are you going to stay? And what are you going to do on your holiday? You know, there have been huge changes in the hospitality industry to go greener. And I think now there are, there's a wealth of choices for everyone. For every choice, I almost go as far today as for every chore, every, every holiday for every hotel, you find there's always a green alternative now, whether that's in the city center, or out in the wilderness, that there is going to be a more sustainable option. So that would be the second thing I'd look at. And then thirdly, you know, things like, what do you do when you there? What restaurants do you eat at, and this is similar, actually, for the hotels for the restaurants, there's generally a more sustainable option for where you eat, you know, the places that serve local seasonal produce, not not shipped in from overseas. And then also what you're doing when you there, I mean to you try and use low impact activities that you know, don't have such a kind of destructive impression on the destination, you know, whether that's you going walking, or kayaking, or, you know, rather than using kind of high impact emissions, that can really help as well.

Jason Moore 26:50
I love trains as well sounds like you're a fan. I mean, there's something about the gentle rocking the landscape going by actually being a part of the change that you're witnessing, as opposed to just kind of getting plopped down on the other side. And so I guess I would challenge people listening, if they haven't taken, or it's been a while since they've taken some of these other modes of transportation before. There are some incredible adventures to be had outside of plane journeys, just just by traveling Overland. Right. Yeah.

Richard Hammond 27:22
You know, I think that a lot of, you know, certainly for British people that a lot of people's experience of traveling by train is, is during the week when it's crowded, and expensive.

Jason Moore 27:34
Right? Yeah, like commuting. Yeah.

Richard Hammond 27:36
And, you know, the difference between when you're traveling for leisure is a different, it's a different experience. You know, especially, you know, you're not traveling at the peak times, you know, unless people on board is pleasurable, you get to see toys, and look out the window. And I think that also a lot of people's past experience of traveling, especially things like with fairies, when they did it when they were younger. Yeah, and it's, you know, very travel has changed enormously, you can, there's really good quality of not just the food and the sleeping, you know, the purse, the accommodation, but also things like the kids clubs, and cinemas and things to do on ferries, it's a brilliant way to travel with families have two young children as well. And they always seem to fall asleep.

Jason Moore 28:21
On a benefit to

Richard Hammond 28:24
well, you know, having hanging around waiting to check into, you know, for an airline, you know, with two young children is no fun, is it?

Jason Moore 28:30
Oh, no, it's the opposite of fun. How old? Are your kids?

Richard Hammond 28:37
The eight and nine? Yeah, okay.

Jason Moore 28:38
As they they're probably at the age of their travel pretty well now. Right?

Richard Hammond 28:41
Yeah, they do. I mean, but you know, when they were younger, that, you know, they need to be busy, and they need to have things to do. And, you know, I mean, for instance, is a terrific very service that goes down from South of England down to northern Spain. And, yeah, the quality and there's fantastic things to do on board, and you get on the ferry, and you can have a dinner before the ferry leaves. So you eat quite early, and get the kids you know, into bed. And they sleep through the night. And then you know, you wake up and you're there.

Jason Moore 29:12
Yeah, that's cool. There's a ship that goes from Oslo to Copenhagen. And I've been meaning to do a family trip on that, because it just sounds like a really cool sort of mini adventure, not too far. And you get to get a little taste of, you know, boat life. And there's a little train mixed in there and stuff like that. So it's cool. I mean, I think that's one of the things I was thinking about when you were kind of sharing some of that is our inclination in Western society, I feel is to optimize our efficiency, right? It's like well, a plane is the quickest way to get there. So we're just going to fly but is it is the quickest way always the best for the travel experience? Well, I

Richard Hammond 29:53
mean, exactly that. I mean, if you travel overland and the traveling because part of the journey comes down to the holiday and

Jason Moore 30:00
I like that, right? I mean, you have to Yeah. And,

Richard Hammond 30:03
you know, I mean, a great one is, you know, going down to Morocco, in Northern Africa on the train. And, you know, I mean, maybe it's because we've all been locked down for so long, but I knocked over, I went down to Barcelona in a day on the train from London. And is this exciting getting to Paris and looking at the destination board and seeing all these great destinations you can reach by training, you know, Switzerland and south of France and Italy. But you know, going out to Morocco, you then take the train down, down through northern Spain, down to Milan, Spain, and progressively becomes more and more ish. And you get this sense of like, how the culture is changing. By the time you get to, you know, just serious in southern Spain or to reefer have a night there in Texas bar. And then in the morning, you get the ferry over, you pass a straight, you go across the Strait of Gibraltar, you see the Rock of Gibraltar next to you. It's like, wow, I get that. And then ahead of you is looming, the continent of Africa, you arrive. And by the time you get there, you feel assimilated, you know, to what Northern Africa is about, because you kind of traveled with a few of them. And you've sort of gone through southern Spain, and it becomes progressively more of, as I say, more recent things. And then when all the taxi drivers come to the port, like they do at the airport, and thing, you feel kind of cool with it, because you're just you're a sense, and the humidity and everything else. But I have flown that trip, and it takes you a couple of days for your head to catch up with you, you know, to get assimilated into this massive change of culture in Northern Africa is a very different place to be than, you know, then Northern Europe and but traveling by train, you do you get you get acclimatized to. And it's so it's so much, it's so fascinating. You're just traveling through those on that route. And then you get to North Africa. And then you've got all these options available there. And actually, you know, the train system in North Africa is in Morocco is pretty good, you know, and then carried on up into the Atlas Mountains by train via Casablanca. And it's done the trip several times. This is terrific.

Jason Moore 32:04
Nice. Well, what are some of the red flags that people should look out for when they're planning and I'm specifically referring to the idea of green washing, if that's the first time you're hearing this term, maybe you could just break down what that means. And then give us some tips on how to go about researching and understanding and doing due diligence in a way that's not overwhelming.

Richard Hammond 32:25
I mean, I think there are a lot of companies now that have seen the effect on climate and the nature emergencies and are doing a lot of good things to address that. But at the same time that a lot of companies sort of more unscrupulous companies who've seen their sort of writing the green wave, if you like, and marketing this idea I'm using for marketing purposes, and trying to kind of promote themselves as green businesses when that they're not as quite as green as they as they think they are, because they're seeing other people are booking green businesses. So they're looking for a slice of the of this new pie. Like, I think one of the biggest things is really I think if people, it's about overclaiming, you know, a lot of companies sort of say they do this, that and the other. And you need to really see if they have had some kind of third party verification of what they do. Is there been someone else has there been another organization who has come in and looked at the business and sales yet these guys are doing what they say they're doing? You know, and I think there is another issue in the tourism industry that there are so many eco labels around, I think, last count over 250 different types of eco labels, some are very regionally based some nationally, some international, I often I like the ones that are national, because they are the same issues within one country. Whereas international schemes, you know, the issues of water, for instance, are less of an issue in, say, Wales in Britain than they are in southern Spain, where water is an enormous scarcity. So I think that you're looking at national schemes is really good. There's B Corp, you know, which a lot of people may have heard of, you know, outside the travel industry. And there are a lot of companies travel companies that are getting certified by B Corp. And I think that that's a really good because they're looking at whether companies are balancing people and profit and the planet. So they're looking at those three aspects. And that's really important and to make sure these companies and you have to go through a process every few years to make sure you still are doing what you say you're doing. So I think that's really a good one to look at. You know, companies like intrepid have got B Corp. And there's several other good organizations here in the UK where they're, you know, that gave that certification and the many others in Europe but also so I think UK labels can really help because that you know, especially when the UK label has had someone go and visit the company, look through the book, see what they're doing, and that's not just for tour operators, but for accommodations as well you know, certification schemes where they go in and say, so what are you doing with your energy waste water provision of local food? And are you encouraging your guests arrive by public transport? You know, these five things are really important to look at. And, you know, no one business, or very few businesses do absolutely everything 100% perfectly all the time. But what you can, what you want to get a sense of is that the owners of those businesses are committed genuinely committed to reducing their impacts on the environment. So I think that's where you can liberals come in, that's a really strong way of checking that. But it's not the only thing. And I'm quite keen to stress this because it's it's a matrix. It's it's a matrix of eco labors. It's also word of mouth. Do you know, anyone that's been to these places? What do they say about it? And it's also looking at the website of these companies and seeing what are they saying, you know, some people can write amazing, you know, copy on their website. So thank you, they're doing brilliant things. So you can't go on that alone. But that's why I think you need to build up these different things that can add in four or five different channels just like it is when you're booking a holiday in the first place. You You don't just go on, you know what one online travel agency says necessarily, you often will look around, you know, anyone that's visited it, what does its own website? So have you seen advertised anywhere, you know, those kinds of things. So same for looking, you know, about whether or not something is green or not? You know, I think, you know, increasing the big online travel agencies and are flagging up properties that are greener. So, you know, for instance, Google, now you search on Google, and it's starting to flag up those hotels that have gone through some certification scheme. And a verified certification scheme that has been accredited by a third party organization. So that's, that's, that's a really important way of checking

Jason Moore 36:43
that. I did notice that little sidebar that Google Flights, for example, is now starting to list the carbon impact on the flights next door, which I thought was brilliant. You know, that being said, let's say we have to fly, right, and we are trying to be eco conscious, is it? Are these schemes where you can buy carbon credits or things like that? Is it worth the investment to do that type of

Richard Hammond 37:08
thing? I think I mean, I know Skyscanner, ISCO, people will probably have heard of Skyscanner, they've done a lot of work in making sure that when you in your results, you can find you see what the various submissions are of the various airlines that you're choosing, and you can select the ones that agree, and I think that's a really important piece of work that they've done. You know, I think fundamentally what, you know, carbon offsets and carbon grants and all those things, what we're trying to do is to reduce the emissions in the first place, not try and continue being part of the problem and try to sweep it up afterwards. That said, you know, if you're gonna fly, choosing a green airline, you know, can make a can make a significant difference, because some airlines are a lot greener than others. And also, if you want to go further and do offsets, I mean, why not? I mean, it's it, you can do good, as long as you're choosing schemes that, again, have had some kind of third party verification, and they really are doing what they say they do. I mean, and there are there are companies that are doing great things. Yeah, and in doing that, but I think what we what we really need to do, is to move to a society that's producing less carbon, and consuming less fossil fuels.

Jason Moore 38:15
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your point, back in the beginning was a great one. I mean, probably have to start with, if not forget the traveling, but what are we doing at home? First of all, right? Because that's our, our daily life. I mean, except for listening to this show a lot of people their home is the road, or they, you know, spending many months on the road, which I think, you know, certainly can lessen the impact. If you're traveling overland, and you're slow traveling and things like that. I'd imagine that's a better way to go about it. One of the other benefits,

Richard Hammond 38:49
Oh, do you wonder how, you know, how well publicized is about the effects of long haul flying is on carbon emissions, I mean, because you can be incredibly green most of the year, take one flight to Australia, for instance, long haul and you can pretty much obliterate your carbon footprint from the air from everything else you're doing. So I think that it's important to, to emphasize that that you know, that a lot of people who who are green and I think actually it comes back to the sense that as your green traveler, it's the state of mind, it's not about a one off gesture, or right this year, I'm not going to fly and desert and you know, the next year you carry on flying or something, you know, it's like it's a state of mind and most people who are now mindful of, of what's going on climate change, you know, it's about all recycling that normally do it is about reusing a jam jar for another thing, it's it's day to day things that you know, becomes part of a mindset and then you start applying that to how you travel. And I think that's perhaps been missing in the past where people haven't you know, they thought right, we're gonna go on holiday with us we did recharge, you almost when you choose a holiday you want to forget About all your responsibilities, don't you? It's sort of getting away from the day to day, you know, responsibilities that we all have. But I think now is the increasing realization that we have to take those, that mindset when we travel. And I think that's, you know, that's where it lies. So. So but anyway, going back to what we said right at the very beginning, you know, although it's very important, obviously, to be green in your day to day life, you also have to be green when you choose a holiday. And I think that, and that doesn't necessarily mean never fly again, because that's impractical. I think people still are going to do that. But it's about looking at ways of minimizing that being selective of how often you fly long haul. And also doing choosing those kinds of trips that once you're there, do you benefit in a destination and conservation of the species.

Jason Moore 40:51
I appreciate your presence here today. Because I think, you know, a big part of that is like you said, the mindset or the it's really the intention, right? Like, if we're not asking ourselves these questions, when we're booking, we're not thinking about this, if it's not top of mind. Well, we're just going to, we're not going to think about it at all. And then some things might work out and some things might not. I mean, in the end, we'll still go on the trip, we still do our thing. But you know, when we're thinking about the impact we're making, it makes a big difference, even if that is impacting even just a couple decisions more than it would have impacted originally. How do you find what airlines greener, I wouldn't even know where to begin?

Richard Hammond 41:32
Well, I mean, it's, you know, actually tools like Skyscanner. What they what they've done is they've done the work for you.

Jason Moore 41:39
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Are Good flights. Yeah. When they have the Yeah,

Richard Hammond 41:42
Google Flights. Yeah. And you know, and there's an organization called Travel list, which is, is, is bringing together lots of the big agencies like booking.com, and Skyscanner and stuff, and they're, they're doing a lot of work to help consumers make those those better choices. You know, I think it's really exciting in this show, because you set a big level, you know, there's been a lot. The Small tour operators are one thing, you know, and they may be getting bigger and bigger, but it's actually about addressing, you know, how do most of us book most of the time and trying to get into that, and I think the work they're doing is really important.

Jason Moore 42:18
Are there any small sort of small action, big impact type of things we should consider on the ground? Like, for example, you know, traveling with like a purifier, or a water bottle, that's refillable, you know, not using all the plastic and in some of these

Richard Hammond 42:37
things are really important. As you mentioned, it's really important, but the packing is such a kind of we all do and often last minute, that area, and it's actually just a few small things you can do before you leave the door is and just things like you know, refillable thing and a coffee cup, you know, and even if you're not drinking coffee, or you because you might don't stop somewhere and get something else and people provide, you know, lots of increasingly lots of businesses provide discounts, you know, if you if you have your own cup, and you know, I think refillable for water as well, I mean, bottled water, it makes so much sense, doesn't it? To take that with you, but also, you know, even things like taking, you know, non non single use plastic containers can be really useful. You know, if you're, if you're going out into a market and picking up food to eat, you know, put it in that rather than having to always buy a plate and cutlery that are just gonna get thrown away. You know, it's a, it's a really good thing to do. And also looking at things like your suntan cream, and also your toiletries and making sure that there have any other nasties in the you know, because, you know, you think you're too small to make a difference. Well actually imagine how big the travel and tourism industry is just responsible for one out of 10 jobs in the whole world, isn't it? It's a massive industry. And the numbers of people flying numbers of people traveling, you know, from every country now is enormous. And, you know, we all make a difference ourselves personally, it does ramp up collectively.

Jason Moore 44:06
Yeah, it's hard because there are a lot of moving pieces. So I mean, do you have like a certain set of questions you ask yourself, kind of as you go through this process that just like, or any, you know, no, we've covered a lot. But I mean, just any, like sort of simple general rules of thumb, because a lot of times we get these conversations so multi layered. And I'd love for people to just walk away. I mean, the big thing I think people can walk away with right now that they won't forget his like, we'll just try to avoid flying, right? That's like a big sort of general rule that's going to wipe out a lot of your carbon footprint.

Richard Hammond 44:37
But if you are going to fly, try and find a more efficient airline. And I think that because a lot of people still are flying. And we met I don't want to turn them off from this conversation because it's still a big thing that they are going to happen. Yeah, yeah. And there's a huge difference, you know, that people can make if you do it by choosing a more efficient airline,

Jason Moore 44:59
you Uh, but any other sort of general rules of thumb that we can just kind of like, take away?

Richard Hammond 45:05
So if you're, you know, you're sort of thinking, gosh, what am I going to pack? Where am I going to stay? What am I going to do? I think energy wastewater, you think of those three things, you know, energy in terms of, you know, the using electricity that helps with the sort of transport question the waste, particularly around where you're going to stay? How do they deal with the waste, you know? And also, when you're packing? How can I reduce the waste? Can I kind of unwrap the plastic inner that's around my batteries, for instance, and not take that, because then you don't want to dispose of it. When you're abroad in the mountain, I have the recycling facilities for that. So I think energy waste and water, obviously, you know, if you're going to water constrained area, just really think about where you're staying. And they'd be mindful of that, you know, especially, especially in places like the Middle East, you know, or in Mediterranean countries where water is becoming a huge issue.

Jason Moore 45:53
Cool. Some people might think this is a silly question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway, inevitably, I think it's gonna be very hard to plan, like sort of a perfect green trip, right? It's just not going to happen, things are gonna happen. And so when things are happening, or you let things slide, for whatever reason, there might be some guilt that comes with that, right? Especially if you're, you're a conscious traveler, and you're trying to do the right thing, but you know, you're not doing the right thing, but you're doing it anyway. And those things are gonna happen. Do you ever have that guilt? How do you manage it? Just want to wondering what where you are with that?

Richard Hammond 46:28
I think, I think sharing the good bits of what you've done with others to encourage other people to do it is a really powerful way of dealing with that. Because if your chip isn't 100%, but what elements in it have been good, that you can share with other people to the winds kind of thing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And especially because people are nervous about, you know, overland travel, because I think they'll end up at a train station with waiting for connection that never comes, you know, something and, and to say, actually, you know, it's super easy, you know, to get to Norway, from the UK, for instance, or vice versa, or, you know, or travel from Norway down to Southern Italy, I mean, there's just so many good in that combination, it's about connectivity, for instance of that, and you know, how you can get off, you take a train to a ferry and then get to, on the other side, you know, get a transit bus into the town, or to take a, you know, or, or to hire a bike and go cycling around, it's those kind of, I think there's pinch points of people feel very nervous about that. But if you've had experience of that, and say, Actually, it was super easy, you know, we got off the ferry, and the train station platform was right there. 100 yards from the ferry was super easy enough to carry our bags very far. And off, we always zipping down through the country. I mean, a great example of that is to get from get from the UK, for instance, to to the Netherlands to Amsterdam, you know, you can get that there's a ferry that goes to the East of England, across, and it connects right next to the train stations or both sides. So it's a seamless kind of sale rail initiative. And that makes a big difference. So and it's not just about the transport, I mean, all sorts of other things, you know, like whether it's, you know, refillable bottles, if you come across, you know, some place where they did actually provide a discount for you, because you bought, it's quite good sharing that because then people feel well, yeah, it's good is worth me taking these things. Yeah,

Jason Moore 48:18
I think when we get into these conversations, I think the initial sort of thought is that you as the traveler, the individual is going to now be depriving yourself of certain things, and that there's no upside. Right? We talked about train travel, and some of the benefits that you just mentioned another example of okay, well, let's say you bring your own coffee cup or water bottle, and now you're getting a discount, you're saving money, right? There are these unexpected benefits, I think that can get lost, or maybe hiding within these types of conversations with the narrative around. You know, well, if you're if you're trying to be conscious or intentional, that means you're gonna have to like give up certain things, and then therefore, everything's going to be harder, when in actuality, maybe you're getting a lot more unexpected benefits that that then you realize, so what are like, I just wanted to highlight some of those maybe unexpected benefits around this style of travel that, that we leave people like, oh, yeah, like this is actually really freaking cool. This isn't like work, this is actually making my trip better. I think

Richard Hammond 49:21
particularly around slow travel, you can look at the elements of taking time getting to know the culture of a destination. And if you're spending more time doing this kind of travel, you do get a better experience because you're more immersed in the culture of the place. Like for instance, talking about when you arrive by train in the middle of us, you know, you come off platform, and all of a sudden you feel like you're traveling like a local. But also, there are benefits that you can get that you might not necessarily know about. And if you sort of dig beneath what you're doing, then you start seeing actually your travel is, you know, the for instance, how it's benefiting a local community. I mean, for instance, going on a safari, you know, there are umpteen different ways Use of choosing a safari. But if you choose one that benefits the local community, I remember going on once, one on ones, and there was a woman who's driving us around in the safari thing, and then we had to kind of do a kind of an Alpha was coming quite close to us, you had a very sharp cut a nine point turn, because it was really difficult with all the scrubbing and everything. And one of the tires got got punctured. But we managed to get back to the lodge away from the elephant. And I said, I said, Seamus, you should know it's actually because great because it will give my brother in law some work because he mends the tires for the lodge, it's like, and you see that they haven't just got mechanics in from elsewhere, you know, they're actually, this so far is really helping work for local people. And, and those local people then value the Safari, the reason why the safari works, because people come to see the wildlife, and they value the wildlife and see them as you know, better alive than dead. So it does, it's, I think, if you're choosing a more sort of greener, more sustainable experience, there are these other things that infiltrate out there might not be immediately obvious. But actually, if you start digging around and reading up about what you're doing, will actually come fun. And if you share those with other people, it then becomes, you know, a kind of shared resource and you feel you feel better about your trip, because you've contributed to that.

Jason Moore 51:16
Yeah, and there's so many simple things I feel on the ground that I just like, one random example that came to mind is like choosing to, you know, rent the bike and paddle out to the beach, instead of taking the public transport that that one there, you just have a different kind of adventure, right?

Richard Hammond 51:30
Yeah. And also, funnily enough, you can, you can end up being a bit more spontaneous. And you know, spontaneity is one of the great things with travel, isn't it when things happen that you haven't quite planned and you're going sort of slow route, you know, rather than just jumping in a taxi and being taken from A to B efficiently as quickly as possible. If you, like you say, hire a bike, you know, you might meet the guy who's hurting the bike, you might then stop off and pass a cafe on the way thing, oh, I got to hang out there, that looks quite nice. And you can't really do that in a taxi. You can, but it'll cost you a lot more money. And, you know, it's complicated, isn't it? So you know, a new cycle, and you start seeing other things that you might not ordinarily see. And so it frees up I think it's been, it's that kind of immersion in the local way of getting around and being really helps.

Jason Moore 52:11
I've always wanted to walk across a country. Yeah. You know, yeah. Eric, and I could do in a couple of days,

Richard Hammond 52:21
as initiative, this initiative in the UK called slow waves, where they're trying to sort of provide roots of every urban dwelling, to check an activity that you can do with by walking. You know, I love in Switzerland, I think there's a in Switzerland, as if there are a certain number of people that live in an area, there has to be a train station. So it's, so it seemed completely brilliantly well served by chains, because that's the law, you know, it to have that confidence as well, to know that you can travel around that country, you know, the trains run like clockwork, most of the time. I mean, it's just, it's just a joy going to such brilliant places as well. And I think other countries have seen what slits Switzerland has, in that sense and replicating it, you know, and, you know, the, there are more high speed lines in Spain, and there are another every other country, you know, it's really quickly moved over to the, you know, getting between Madrid and Barcelona was super quick, just like in Italy, you know, traveling between Rome and Milan now is, it's really well served by high speed lines. So it's happening, you know, the, the rail renascence is upon us. So I think, you know, the future is really right for people, you know, if you're traveling around Europe, you have so many options now.

Jason Moore 53:40
Yeah. How does it feel to get these years of ideas and experiences into a book, man?

Richard Hammond 53:47
It feels great. I do feel like I've scratched the surface with it. I think that, you know, originally I thought this book would be kind of a gathering together of everything. In fact, all it is, is a is just a taste of many more things that there are available. You know, for instance, I talk about your 10 Great campsites that are reachable by public transport. I mean, I Chet had to choose 10. But there are hundreds,

Jason Moore 54:13
right? That's another great example of like, wow, yeah, you can take public transport to your camping site. I mean, there's, it's just, there's so many adventures to be had. And they don't have to involve all of the sort of traditional things that are the most damaging, I guess, is a big takeaway for me. And it's just a reminder, really, you know, are there any big things we missed here? I mean, I know there is a lot to unpack so we can't unpack it all in one interview. I always like to ask, you know, hey, what are we missing anything? Here? What do you want to kind of leave people with?

Richard Hammond 54:44
I think we've talked a lot about and that's it talked a lot about the traveling to the destination, you know, the carbon emissions associated with it is really important. But equally I think that the, the nature emergency that we're all facing it You know, is is as important. I mean, you look at the number of species that are threatened now, and you look at things of the degradation of the environment, and therefore the habitat of lots of wildlife, and not just the big well known species, but the small things that really matter. And I, there's a section in the book called about indicator species. And it's perhaps a bit kind of random to put that in. But what I wanted to get across was, you let's look at the small things, and I didn't choose like the big wildlife, you know, mammals and things, I looked at really small things like the butterfly and door mice, and liking, and these kinds of things, if you see them and spot them, then you know that that habitat is probably doing okay, because they're thriving. But if you, you know, we're increasingly seeing those things not appearing where they should be. And that's, you know, it's a big signal that things aren't going the way they should. But equally as great when you do starts seeing this, there's a section I put in the book on hotels, with the Natural Swimming pools, you know, beautiful swimming pools that are, you know, wildlife friendly. And when you stay in one of these places, they're gorgeous places, and there's lots of wildlife, and that you've got a particular swimming pool, just like every hotel swimming pool, but it's wildlife friendly. And that, to me is so exemplary of for how, you know, we can all choose to go a bit more sustainable, you know, and then that has terrific example of, you know, of it just being just being a better experiences for you, but also for helping with wildlife.

Jason Moore 56:28
That's cool. Do you think the pandemic sort of the big pause, we were put really took a big pause on travel in many ways? Do you think that has benefited the work that you're putting out into the world in terms of getting more people to kind of ask these types of questions and sort of reframing and changing travel? Like, how is that going to change travel? If, if at all,

Richard Hammond 56:50
I think I think that, you know, over tourism was, we know, that was really in the news, wasn't it before the pandemic. And I think that the pandemic has really put that into a sharp contrast, you know, just seeing we had over tourism. Now, we have no tourism. This is what the difference is. And I think that in terms of bouncing back from all of this, I think a lot of destinations, have beginning to begin to rethink what do we actually want? How can we make tourism work for us better in a more intentional with their intention to still be stalled, still help with being being economically advantageous to the destination, but also, in a way that isn't as disruptive?

Jason Moore 57:30
Yeah. Cool. Thanks for your time. Thanks for all the work you've been doing around this over the years, I think it's really, obviously it's a it's important as an understatement, because this is, you know, we get the one planet, this is what we get. So we want to travel we want to explore. But I do think it's so incredibly key to have an awareness around this stuff, and to really try to do our best to make some good decisions along the way. So thanks for helping us do that.

Richard Hammond 57:59
Well, thank you is an enormous subject. And we could talk for hours and hours about this, but it's great to whistled through some of the the options. And I think if I can just leave listeners with this is that you know, there are many more choices. Now it is every time you think right. I'm gonna go I just think what could I do that could be just make even if it's just one choice? Yeah, that'll make a big difference.

Jason Moore 58:20
For sure. Thank you so much. And we'll chat soon.

There you have it. Thank you so very much to Richard for stopping by the show. Of course, he could pick up his book, and check out his website, all those links are in the show notes, awesome stuff. I mean, it's it's just good to have tools to work with and to have the conversation and to keep these things top of mind, especially as we kick into the travel season, the high travel season, you might call it in the summer. And I know I'm planning a trip. I know a lot of the people that are and let's just try to keep this top of mind and collectively to our part now. Give me a moment here. I want to shout out somebody in this listening community who dropped me an email with the subject header in short, thank you. So what it said this is Ruby. I'll read some selections from her email. She says Hi, Jason. My name is Ruby. I am a 26 year old from Brisbane, Australia. been listening your podcast for a few years. I think it's time to sit down and write to you about just how important it's been to me a few years ago, I discovered it I was not in the best headspace net found myself feeling so utterly stuck in life. I was working full time as a nuclear medicine scientist a career which really didn't serve me receiving ongoing treatment for a chronic illness once every four weeks with no end in sight. And living in the apartment I owned which was siphoning all my cash flow. She goes on to say there are many things that have happened between now and then. But to summarize one I ditched my job I left my job in nuclear medicine to pursue a career in online nutrition. Coaching this affords me the constant education of science It's the subjectivity of working individuals needs and the ability to work alongside my husband in our strength and conditioning business to I came off treatment. This is pretty incredible. I had been receiving infusions for a primary immune deficiency every four weeks for 22 years, when by chance I had to skip one. In the past, this was a disaster and I very quickly ended up in the hospital with chest infections without treatment. However, this time, I didn't. Upon speaking to my immunologist, we decided to take this as a test to see how long I could hold up. It's been 18 months now my immune system has stabilized I never thought it would be possible to come off treatment. And this takes the restrictions out of having to be in the hospital every four weeks, something which I had previously planned my travels around, three, I sold my apartment went back to renting for I started competitive bodybuilding. Now, she goes on to say we have just booked our first international flight in two and a half years, we are off to South Korea and Singapore for five weeks, and she's going there to compete in a bodybuilding show. And goes on to say this trip is going to be five weeks, we need to get back for some work commitments. But the intention is to further develop our business so we can be away for longer periods. So I just want to say thanks. And congratulations to Ruby. For taking that first step those first steps to creating a life filled with more travel step by step or as they say, in Norwegian, Stein Pearlstein, which is stone by stone, really, so cool. So I want to thank Ruby for taking the time to write share story. And please, I invite you to get in touch as well Jason at zero to travel.com. And you can always leave me a voice message on the link in the show notes. This is a community powered show. And I need to hear from you to kind of know what's going on. So let me know what you're up to say hi, drop me a line anytime. Thanks to everybody who's done that in the past. Thank you to Ruby for taking the time to get in touch. Now, last thing I said at the top that I would share my favorite environmentally friendly travel tip. This is an easy one. Just do more human powered stuff. No carbon emissions coming out of me. Well, maybe my wife would disagree with that. All right, that was a bad like gross dad joke or whatever, I get it. We're not going to make fart jokes here on the show. Oops. I don't know how it went there. Anyway. It's true though human powered, travel. Such a joy slows you down, gets you in touch with the world I'm talking about even around your hometown, you know, I love to walk. It's nice to ride a bike. You know, I've had many interviews over the years on the show with people that have been walking around the world, bike touring long distances, doing all these things. And one of the common themes is that, hey, you don't have to be some spectacular athlete. To participate in more human power travel, you can just put your walking shoes on and walk or you can,

you know, get out there and get on the bike. And they don't have to be these epic, you know, 1000 2000 mile trips. But even the people that have done those long trips, said they weren't, a lot of them weren't in fantastic shape. When they started, they just kind of started it and got into it. So human powered travel, always, I think fascinating. An interesting way to see a country and there are a lot more options, then I think we're even aware of you know, if you just break it down to many adventures, I mean, one in particular is an example that I've been dreaming about that I put on my bucket list recently, since I heard about it is biking the canals in France, apparently there's a whole network of bike trails in France that run on these canals. I mean, how hard is it to bike on a flat canal? Right? Sure, you can stay in villages along the way, maybe some camping, I don't know exactly how it works logistically. But that just sounds like a really cool way to travel through a part of France. Now, I'd have to get to France. I live in Europe. I live in Norway. So maybe taking a train down there cuts the environmental impact, doing a bike trip around France, I could bring my bike and train me that sounds like an awesome adventure. Right? You know, I don't have the calculator. But it's something like that. Way less than, you know, maybe flying to Southeast Asia and spending a month there. I think based on what Richard said, and how much I know, airlines can cause in terms of carbon emissions. I again, I don't know the math, but I could speculate that perhaps, yes, maybe that makes a huge difference. So anyway, just things to consider human powered travel, no matter what your travel experience. I think it's really open to anybody. Of course it is open to anybody. And there are a lot of different versions of that and experiences of that that don't have to be the insane adventures that might come to the top of our minds when we think about human power traveling roaming across the ocean are some of these crazy things that people do. I'm not going to be rolling across the ocean. I'm probably not going to be biking around the world. But hey, I'll pipe through some canals in France and, and maybe have some wine and meet some locals and, and just have a good time. So there you go, just wanted to kind of leave you with some food for thought around that let me also leave you with a quote. This one is going to come from Rachel Carson, who is the author of a famous book that came out in 1962 called Silent Spring. This was an environmental science book, where she talked about the impact of pesticides, and the chemical industry and the spread of disinformation. And the fact that people were kind of accepting a lot of these marketing claims without really questioning what was going on. And I haven't read the book, but that's the general synopsis of it. And I know it's a big, famous book. I mean, in 2006 I'm reading this from Wikipedia silence spring was named one of the 25 greatest science books of all time, and Rachel said, Those who contemplate the beauty of the earth find reserves of strength that will endure as long as life lasts, there is something infinitely healing in the repeated refrains of nature. The assurance that dawn comes after night and spring after. Thank you so very much for your time and I'll see you next time. Peace and love.

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