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Frances's angry text about the executive order, and how it launched this episodeMeet Dr. David Shiffman: shark science, policy, and why he's called Shark Week's biggest criticThe story behind "Why Sharks Matter"What Section 7 of the new executive order actually saysNOAA already has a depredation strategy, so what's this task force for?Depredation explained: what it means to get "sharked"Why shark populations can't simply boom, and why culling wouldn't helpSharks learning that engine noise means lunchWho serves on the task force, and why that mattersCITES 101: what Appendix II listings do and don't doThe real-time depredation reporting app: useful data or skewed data?The Trump-shark rabbit hole: the Twitter block, shark fin soup, Sharknado, and the sealsHow listeners can get involved, including public comment periods in the Federal Register

In 2019, there was exactly one Black member of the American Elasmobranch Society — the leading U.S. society for shark and ray researchers — out of 500. Then a single tweet during Black Birders Week changed everything. Join us as we sit down with Jasmin Graham, President and CEO of Minorities in Shark Sciences (MISS), the organization she and three other Black women scientists built from a viral tweet into a global community with members across four continents — launched just three weeks after that first message, timed deliberately for Juneteenth. Jasmin studies bonnethead sharks and the critically endangered smalltooth sawfish, one of the last "lifeboat populations" left on Earth, now facing a mysterious new spinning disease that's already claimed an estimated 80 animals in Florida. She's also the author of the memoir Sharks Don't Sink: Adventures of a Rogue Shark Scientist, which draws striking parallels between shark conservation and the fight for Black liberation. In this conversation, Jasmin shares her "scientific meet-cute" origin story, why she walked away from a traditional academic career, how local fishers and Indigenous oral histories are reshaping what scientists thought they knew about bull sharks and red tide, and what she'd tell any young woman of color who loves the ocean but isn't sure science was built for her. Whether you're drawn to marine science, representation in STEM, or just want to hear from someone whose stated goal in life is to be sharks' PR person, this episode is a reminder that the people best equipped to change a field are often the ones it wasn't built for in the first place.

Nearly seven kilometers beneath the Indian Ocean, a team of scientists went looking for hydrothermal vents — and found something else entirely. What they mistook, at first glance, for smoking chimneys turned out to be whale skulls: the opening of a necropolis stretching 1,200 kilometers across the sea floor, holding nearly 500 fossilized whales alongside active whale falls still teeming with life. In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Xikun Song of the Institute of Deep-Sea Science and Engineering, Chinese Academy of Sciences, one of the researchers behind this landmark discovery, newly published in Nature. Dr. Song walks us through the moment of realization on the submersible monitors, the physiology that may be driving deep-diving beaked whales to their limits, and why this site could rewrite what we know about whale evolution over the past 5.3 million years — with remains that may number in the millions, and roughly 6.7 million tons of sequestered carbon locked into the sea floor. He also shares the story in his own words — in Mandarin, with translation — describing the exact moment his team realized they'd found something extraordinary. Links mentioned in this episode: The full study in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10546-z Smithsonian Magazine's coverage, with photos from the dives: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-discover-the-worlds-largest-deepest-whale-graveyard-where-cetacean-remains-have-been-piling-up-for-five-million-years-180988942/

Save Ocean Sensors: The Fight Over the Ocean Observatories Initiative A $386 million network of nearly 900 ocean sensors stretching across five sites from Oregon to Alaska to Greenland was being quietly dismantled, with no warning to Congress and no explanation to the public. In this episode, we trace the fight to save the Ocean Observatories Initiative: what this network actually does, why it matters far more than most people realize, and how a Democrat from Oregon and a Republican from Alaska teamed up to pass a bill stopping it in the span of a day and a half. We talk with Craig McLean, who spent more than 40 years at NOAA, including two stints as NOAA's Chief Scientist, about what's really at stake when ocean monitoring infrastructure disappears, and why this fight is part of a much bigger pattern. We also revisit a warning from a past guest, marine ecologist Dr. Andrew Thaler, that's looking less hypothetical by the day, and lay out exactly what you can do to help make sure this win sticks. In This Episode What the Ocean Observatories Initiative actually measures, and why it matters for your weather forecast, your insurance rates, and what farmers plant each season The Coastal Endurance Array off Oregon and Washington, and why pulling it out right as an El Nino forms is especially bad timing, per OSU oceanographer Jack Barth How Senators Jeff Merkley (D-OR) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) found out sensors were already being removed, and how they got the Saving the OOI Act passed unanimously in under two days Craig McLean's read on why this kept happening, from the role of the Office of Management and Budget to the broader pattern of cuts to federal science A look back at a warning from marine ecologist Dr. Andrew Thaler about Project 2025's plans for NOAA, and how that warning is playing out in real time What happens next: the NSF's review process, and how you can track it and find out where your own senators stand Featured Voices Craig McLean spent over 40 years at NOAA, where he founded the Ocean Exploration Program and served as NOAA's Chief Scientist, including being reinstated after being removed from the role for defending scientific integrity. He is now a senior fellow at the Ocean Foundation. Senator Jeff Merkley (D-OR) and Senator Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) led the bipartisan push for the Saving the OOI Act, featured here via Senate floor remarks. Dr. Andrew Thaler, marine ecologist and conservation technologist, returns in spirit from a past episode where he broke down Project 2025's plans to dismantle NOAA. Jack Barth, oceanography professor at Oregon State University, provided background on the Coastal Endurance Array via KATU News. The Bill The Saving the OOI Act passed the Senate unanimously, pausing NSF's decommissioning of the Ocean Observatories Initiative pending a full review with stakeholder input. It was led by Senators Merkley and Murkowski and cosponsored by Senators Dan Sullivan (R-AK), Maria Cantwell (D-WA), Ron Wyden (D-OR), Jack Reed (D-RI), Tammy Baldwin (D-WI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), Patty Murray (D-WA), Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Edward J. Markey (D-MA), and Chris Van Hollen (D-MD). Resources & Links Saving the OOI Act, full text and cosponsor list: Congress.gov NSF Ocean Observatories Initiative updates: oceanobservatories.org Senator Merkley's press release on the Saving the OOI Act: merkley.senate.gov "Scientists warn Oregon could lose critical ocean data under federal cuts," KATU News Take Action If your senator is one of the twelve who championed or cosponsored the Saving the OOI Act, send them a thank you. If they didn't, let them know this issue matters to you. Watch for the NSF's Dear Colleague Letter and expert panel process, your chance to weigh in on what happens to OOI long-term.

Featuring Alex Rose, Science Editor, Ocean Geographic Magazine & Co-Founder, Sea Americas Alex Rose has been part of the Ocean Science Radio family for nearly a decade — you may remember her reporting live from MACNA, the Marine Aquarium Conference of North America, back in 2016. Today she's back, this time in the guest chair, with something considerably bigger on the horizon. Alex is the Science Editor of Ocean Geographic Magazine, founder of ocean conservation company Blue Ring, an Explorers Club Fellow, a professional violinist, and now co-host and producer of Sea Americas — a cinematic expedition documentary series following the world's largest all-female dive team as they document the most threatened marine sanctuaries across the Americas. In this conversation, Andrew and Dr. Frances Farabaugh sit down with Alex to talk about what it means to dive with purpose in a moment of accelerating loss — from the functionally extinct reef-building corals of the Florida Keys, to the surprisingly intact reefs of Cuba, to the political headwinds threatening the protected waters these stories depend on. They also dig into the Sea Americas Seed & Spark crowdfunding campaign, the conservation model behind Blue Ring, and what it actually feels like to cry underwater while trying to document a dying reef. Hope, Alex reminds us, needs to be a verb. Let's actively hope. Links: Sea Americas: seaamericas.com Blue Ring: bluering.blue Ocean Geographic: ogsociety.org Mission Blue (Netflix) Last episode featuring Alex Rose - https://oceanscienceradio.simplecast.com/episodes/macna

Guest: Oliver Gunasekara, CEO & Co-Founder, Impossible Metals Website: impossiblemetals.com Eureka Collection System animation: https://impossiblemetals.com/blog/next-generation-eureka-collection-system-animation-now-available/ Context & Further Reading: ISA (International Seabed Authority): isa.int DISCOL experiment — long-term seafloor disturbance study: https://www.discol.de/index.html IEA Critical Minerals Report (recycling projections): https://www.iea.org/reports/global-critical-minerals-outlook-2025 Our previous episode: Trump Administration Ocean Policy Forum with Dr. Andrew Thaler, Dr. Diva Amon, and Angelo Villagomez Key Terms: Polymetallic nodules: Mineral-rich concretions found on the deep seafloor, taking millions of years to form UNCLOS: United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea Common Heritage of Mankind: Legal principle that certain global resources belong to all of humanity ISA: International Seabed Authority — the UN body governing deep seabed mining in international waters AUV: Autonomous Underwater Vehicle BGR: German Federal Institute for Geosciences and Natural Resources (Bundesanstalt für Geowissenschaften und Rohstoffe)

Episode Description Making babies is expensive. For pretty much every species on the planet, reproduction is supposed to be the ultimate metabolic investment—a massive energy drain that can make organisms vulnerable to stress, predators, and environmental change. Except there's a small shark walking around the Great Barrier Reef that apparently didn't get the memo. In this episode of our Ocean Lovin' series, we explore groundbreaking research from James Cook University that's forcing scientists to completely rethink what they know about the costs of reproduction. Epaulette sharks—those amazing little "walking sharks" that can literally stroll across reef flats on their fins—can produce complex egg cases with developing embryos inside without any measurable increase in energy use. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's like building a house without buying any extra lumber. Join hosts Andrew Kornblatt and Dr. Frances Farabaugh, along with returning guest co-host Dr. Skylar Bayer, as we dive into this surprising discovery with Professor Jodie Rummer from James Cook University. We'll explore how her team measured something no one had measured before—the metabolic cost of egg-laying in sharks—and what they found challenges fundamental assumptions about reproduction in the ocean. We'll learn about the "pay as you go" hypothesis, discover why a tiny organ might be working overtime without changing the whole shark's energy budget, and explore what this means for sharks facing climate change. From the controlled environment of the lab to wild populations scattered across the Great Barrier Reef, this research reveals that evolution has equipped some species with surprising tools for survival that we're only beginning to understand. Content Advisory: This Ocean Lovin' episode deals with mature subjects related to marine reproduction. Please listen to the full episode before sharing with younger audiences. Featured Guest Professor Jodie Rummer Professor of Marine Biology, James Cook University, Australia Conservation physiologist specializing in sharks and coral reef fishes Leads shark physiology research team at JCU's Marine and Aquaculture Research Facility Maintains a breeding colony of epaulette sharks for multi-generational research Expert in how marine organisms cope with climate change stressors (temperature, ocean acidification, low oxygen) Key Topics Covered The Discovery First direct measurement of metabolic costs of egg-laying in sharks Completely flat metabolic rate across reproductive cycle—no energy spike 37 trials, nearly 200 eggs, almost 100 reproductive cycles The Science How scientists measure metabolic rate through oxygen uptake The "pay as you go" hypothesis: income breeding vs. stored energy The nidamental gland paradox: tiny organ, massive output Blood chemistry and hormone stability during reproduction Epaulette Shark Biology One of nine "walking shark" species with modified pectoral fins Can survive zero oxygen conditions for several hours Endemic to Great Barrier Reef, living in extreme reef flat environments Produce two eggs every ~19 days during breeding season Four-month embryonic development period Climate Change Implications Challenging the assumption that "reproduction will be the first thing to go" under stress Potential resilience in warming oceans—but limits unknown Effects of elevated temperatures on embryo development and hatchling size Importance of protecting critical habitats where adaptations can function Future Research Directions Testing upper limits of reproductive efficiency under warming Local adaptation across Great Barrier Reef populations Immune function in mothers and hatchlings under stress Applications to other shark species and conservation strategies Featured Research Primary Study: Wheeler, C.R., Awruch, C.A., Mandelman, J.W., & Rummer, J.L. (2025). "Assessing the metabolic and physiological costs of oviparity in the epaulette shark (Hemiscyllium ocellatum)." Biology Open, 14(11). DOI: 10.1242/bio.062076 Lead Author: Dr. Carolyn Wheeler (recent JCU PhD graduate) Resources & Links Research Institution: James Cook University Marine and Aquaculture Research Facility, Townsville, Australia JCU Marine Biology Conservation Organizations: Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority IUCN Shark Specialist Group Press Coverage: JCU News Release ScienceDaily Article Episode Credits Hosts: Andrew Kornblatt - Climate and Ocean Communications Specialist, Producer Dr. Frances Farabaugh - Shark Ecologist, Aquanaut Guest Co-Host: Dr. Skylar Bayer - Marine Ecologist (Shellfish Population Dynamics, Fertilization Ecology, Science Communication) Featured Guest: Professor Jodie Rummer - James Cook University

90% of seafood consumed on the Oregon coast is imported, while most Oregon-caught seafood gets exported. This week, we explore how that's changing. We talk with Suzie O'Neill, Kaitlyn Rich, and Jon Bonkoski from Ecotrust, who just launched "Tending the Tides," a podcast about mariculture on the Oregon coast. Learn how oyster farmers became climate sentinels in 2007 when ocean acidification killed their larvae. Discover urchin divers using rock climbing techniques underwater in 50 pounds of lead, and how their catch feeds innovative closed-loop aquaculture systems growing seaweed and sea cucumbers. From selective breeding programs creating climate-resilient oysters to kelp forests buffering acidification, this episode reveals how Oregon is building regenerative ocean farming that honors Indigenous stewardship, avoids parachute science, and redefines what sustainable food systems look like. Featuring the Oregon Coastal Mariculture Collaborative's community-led approach to expanding "unfed aquaculture"—oysters and seaweed that grow without any inputs beyond what the ocean provides.

What happens when an entire industry rushes forward before science can catch up? In this episode of Ocean Science Radio, we sit down with Dr. Andrew Thaler, deep-sea ecologist and CEO of Blackbeard Biologic, to explore his groundbreaking report for the Convention on Migratory Species that reveals exactly how much we don't know about deep-sea mining's impacts on whales, dolphins, sharks, turtles, and other highly migratory species. While most deep-sea mining research has focused on the immediate destruction of seafloor ecosystems, Andrew's report exposes a more troubling reality: we have massive knowledge gaps about how mining operations—with their noise, sediment plumes, and habitat disruption—might affect species that travel thousands of miles across interconnected ocean basins. From sea turtles navigating by magnetic fields to whales relying on acoustic communication, these far-reaching impacts remain largely unstudied even as the industry accelerates toward commercial production. The conversation takes a timely turn as we discuss the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management's controversial Request for Information for mining in U.S. waters off the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. Andrew breaks down why this represents a significant shift from international deep-sea mining debates, and what it means that communities near the Mariana Trench—with only a 30-day comment period and no guaranteed revenue sharing—are being asked to accept an industry that science hasn't fully evaluated. As the Trump administration pushes to fast-track deep-sea mining for critical minerals while international bodies like the CMS urge precaution, this episode asks the essential question: what's at stake when we mine what we haven't studied? Join us for a conversation that bridges cutting-edge marine science, environmental justice, and the real-world policy decisions happening right now in the deep ocean.

After nearly two decades of negotiations, the world has finally agreed on a framework to protect the high seas - that vast expanse of ocean beyond any nation's control that covers nearly half our planet's surface. On January 17th, 2026, the BBNJ Agreement (Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction), commonly known as the High Seas Treaty, officially enters into force, becoming international law. Join us as we explore this historic moment with two experts at the heart of the effort. Jeremy Raguain, who works with the Alliance of Small Island States, shares insights on Africa's leadership in the negotiations and what meaningful capacity building looks like for developing nations. Rebecca Hubbard, Director of the High Seas Alliance, takes us through the coalition-building journey from 2002 to today, explaining the treaty's four pillars: marine protected areas, equitable benefit-sharing from marine genetic resources, environmental impact assessments, and capacity building. This isn't just another international agreement - it's the missing piece that could finally allow us to protect 30% of the ocean by 2030, ensure that benefits from ocean resources flow equitably to all nations, and shift away from "parachute science" toward true partnerships. From small island nations reclaiming their identity as "big ocean states" to the complex work of enforcing protections in the world's most remote waters, this episode explores what becomes possible when the world comes together to protect what belongs to us all. Whether you live on a coast or in a landlocked country, half the oxygen you breathe comes from the ocean. Its health is humanity's health. Discover why this treaty matters for everyone, and what you can do to support its implementation. Featured Guests: Jeremy Raguain, AOSIS Fellowship Director & Ocean Governance SpecialistRebecca Hubbard, Director of the High Seas AllianceEpisode Length: 35-40 minutes

Episode DescriptionWhat happens when you combine marine biology expertise with immersive art? You get the world's only cartoon aquarium—and it's right here in Portland. Join us as we explore the Portland Aquarium, an innovative art installation that's reimagining ocean education. Artist Mike Bennett and marine biologist Chanel Hason have created an experience featuring over 100 hand-painted marine species across six biomes—with zero live animals and maximum imagination. Discover how this unique collaboration addresses real challenges in science communication: How do you show people a blue whale or giant squid when you can't keep them in captivity? How do you bring ocean education to communities without access to traditional aquariums? And how can art become a gateway to marine conservation? From the technical details of getting sea otter tails scientifically accurate to the emotional power of painted seagulls with flapping wings, Mike and Chanel share the story of transforming a vacant downtown Portland space into a hub of creativity, education, and community connection—complete with support for real conservation work through the Elakha Alliance's sea otter reintroduction efforts. Featured GuestsMike Bennett - Portland-based artist and creator of immersive educational installations including the Portland Aquarium Chanel Hason - Marine biologist and Director of Outreach & Community Relations at Elakha Alliance Key TopicsThe intersection of art and marine science educationAdvantages of artistic representations versus traditional aquariumsScientific accuracy in creative work (yes, sea otter tail length matters!)Bringing ocean education to landlocked communitiesCreating community spaces through immersive artSupporting marine conservation through creative collaborationThe Elakha Alliance's work to reintroduce sea otters to OregonEpisode HighlightsWhy Portland's cartoon aquarium features species you'd never see in a traditional aquarium—like blue whales and giant squidHow Mike's childhood visits to the Baltimore Aquarium inspired a career in immersive animal educationThe viral success of Mike's pandemic-era "A, B, Sea" installation that attracted 1,000+ visitors to his front yardChanel's emotional connection to seeing the first footage of a living giant squidHow the installation transformed a downtown corner from "graffiti and cigarette butts" to "sidewalk chalk and bubbles"The truth about blobfish: why they look so different at the surface versus the deep seaCreating animatronic seagulls and working with composer RAC to bring the installation to lifePlans for a portable version to bring ocean education to schools in landlocked statesMentioned in This EpisodeOrganizations: Elakha Alliance - Working to reintroduce sea otters to the Oregon coastBig Fish Lab at Oregon State UniversityImaginary Planet - Portland animation studioThe Portland Aquarium Location: Broadway & Alder, Downtown Portland, OregonOpen 7 days a weekInstagram: @theportlandaquariumGeneral admission: $14 | Children 2-12: $10 | Under 2: FreeComing Soon: Zoo Aquarium Podcast - Mike and Chanel's upcoming show answering kids' questions about animals Quote of the Episode"It's the only cartoon aquarium in the world, which I think is really special. And there's a blue whale in the aquarium and some wild deep sea critters that couldn't be held in captivity no matter how you tried." - Chanel Hason Why This MattersThe Portland Aquarium demonstrates how creative collaboration between artists and scientists can solve real problems in science communication and conservation outreach. By making ocean education accessible, affordable, and imaginative, Mike and Chanel are proving that wonder—and learning—can come in many forms. Ocean Science Radio brings you the latest, greatest, and sometimes deepest stories in the ocean. Hosted by Andrew Kornblatt and Dr. Frances Farabaugh.

What happens after you flush? Most of us don't think about it—but maybe we should. In this eye-opening episode, we dive into one of the ocean's biggest but least discussed threats: wastewater pollution. Join us as we talk with Jos Hill, Program Director for The Nature Conservancy's Wastewater Pollution Program and creator of the groundbreaking podcast "waste(d)water." Jos reveals the shocking scale of this crisis: 80% of wastewater worldwide is inadequately treated, 58% of coral reefs are exposed to wastewater pollution, and wastewater accounts for a staggering 40% of coastal nutrient pollution—nearly as much as agriculture. Discover how even highly treated wastewater can devastate marine ecosystems, why coral disease outbreaks in the Florida Keys have been traced back to human gut pathogens, and how nutrient-rich wastewater is making coral reefs more vulnerable to marine heat waves and climate change. But this isn't just doom and gloom—Jos shares inspiring recovery stories from Kaneohe Bay in Hawaii and Tampa Bay in Florida, proving that when pollution is addressed, ecosystems can bounce back. Learn about innovative nature-based solutions, including treatment gardens that clean water while growing food for coastal communities. From the intersection of wastewater pollution and social justice to practical steps you can take in your own community, this conversation breaks the taboo around a topic that affects every person on the planet. As Jos reminds us: everyone goes to the toilet, so this issue is relevant to everyone. It's time to start talking about the dirty secret of ocean pollution—because we can't solve problems we won't discuss. Featured Guest: Jos Hill, Program Director, Wastewater Pollution Program, The Nature Conservancy Learn more: Check out the waste(d)water podcast and follow @wastedwaterpod wherever you listen to podcasts.

Dive into the freshwater frontier of ocean exploration as we explore how a revolutionary compact ROV is transforming underwater archaeology in the Great Lakes. Join us for the incredible story of the first comprehensive survey of shipwrecks in Lake Ontario National Marine Sanctuary, where cutting-edge technology meets centuries-old maritime history. Discover how RHODY - a nimble, acrobatic underwater robot that can be transported in the back of a truck - recently surveyed 17 shipwrecks with unprecedented detail. From 3D photorealistic models created with gaming technology to students piloting sophisticated ROVs using Xbox controllers, this expedition is redefining what's possible in ocean exploration. Hear the thrilling tale of Susanna Maycut, a student who made maritime history during a midnight shift, discovering a previously unknown shipwreck while processing sonar data for the first time. Learn how this expedition democratized ocean exploration by prioritizing student involvement, connecting with 15 classrooms in real-time, and even enabling a paralyzed student to pilot the ROV remotely from his home. This episode showcases how modern ocean science is becoming more accessible, inclusive, and community-connected. From the spooky beauty of century-old shipwrecks preserved in Lake Ontario's cold waters to the practical applications of emergency response and archaeological documentation, RHODY represents the future of underwater exploration. Whether you're fascinated by maritime archaeology, excited about technological innovation, or inspired by student-led discovery, this episode proves that some of our most incredible adventures are waiting right in our own backyard waters. Guests: Adam Soule - Professor, University of Rhode Island Graduate School of Oceanography & Executive Director, NOAA Ocean Exploration Cooperative InstituteHolly Pettus - Project Manager, Ocean Exploration Cooperative Institute & Deputy Expedition Leader, Lake Ontario Expedition

Forget everything you think you know about viruses. In the ocean, there are viral giants so large they were mistaken for bacteria for decades – and they're rewriting the rules of marine ecology. Join us as we explore the fascinating world of giant viruses with Benjamin Minch, a PhD student at the University of Miami who has discovered over 230 previously unknown viral genomes using a revolutionary computational tool called BEREN. These microscopic monsters can hijack photosynthesis, manipulate their hosts like puppet masters, and dramatically reshape ocean food webs. Giant viruses are up to 100 times larger than common viruses, with genomes rivaling those of bacteria. Some enhance their hosts' superpowers – boosting photosynthesis and metabolism – before turning infected cells into viral factories. Others cause victims to clump together and sink as marine snow, playing crucial roles in carbon sequestration and climate regulation. From the Baltic Sea's viral treasure trove to practical applications like predicting harmful algal blooms, this episode explores how invisible giants influence everything from ocean food webs to global nutrient cycles. Discover why the ocean's biggest players might also be its smallest. Links: BEREN tool: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.10.09.617401v1Ben's research publications: https://idsc.miami.edu/pegasus-powered-giant-virus-study-yields-publicly-shared-bioinformatics-tool/

Andrew Kornblatt sits down with deep-sea ecologist and science communicator Andrew Thaler and dedicated ocean advocate and Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress, Angelo Villagomez for a panel discussion on the recent actions of the Trump Administration around NOAA, Ocean Monuments, and Conservation. Come for the Ocean Politics, stay for the Pauly Shore references.