Advertise on podcast: Full-Tilt Parenting: Strategies, Insights, and Connection for Parents Raising Neurodivergent Children

Author, podcaster, and mental performance coach Kirsten Jones joins us to talk about youth sports, and how something that should offer kids opportunities for play, connection, movement, and growth has increasingly become a high-pressure world focused on performance, specialization, and achievement. We look at how youth sports culture has changed, why kids are being pushed to specialize and compete at younger and younger ages, and what that pressure can mean for their mental health, identity, and relationship with sports. We also talk about the role we play as parents, how easily our own hopes and investment can become tangled up with our child’s athletic experience, and what we can do to protect their joy, keep sports developmentally appropriate, and help them build an identity that extends far beyond their performance on the field or court.    About Kirsten Jones Kirsten (Keer-stin) is a Hall of Fame NCAA Division I volleyball player, 15-year NIKE executive, motivational speaker, Mental Performance Coach, author of the best-selling book, Raising Empowered Athletes, and host of the award winning podcast, “Raising Athletes” (#5 on Feedspot in Youth Sports). She works with athletes, parents, coaches and administrators, helping them identify their pain points, amplify their strengths and reach their individual and collective team and leadership goals. Kirsten’s super power is getting people out of their heads and into their bodies, allowing them to feel their best and perform beyond what they believed possible. Kirsten and her husband, Evan, have raised three athletes (ages, 25, 22 and 20). Two sons, who became DI basketball players and a daughter who played volleyball through high school. Kirsten understands the pressure, excitement and oftentimes anguish that comes with the roller coaster ride that is youth sports. Buckle up! Things you'll learn from this episode  How youth sports have become increasingly intense, with early specialization, travel teams, and a pro-sports mindset filtering down to younger kids Why the real value of sports lies in building resilience, self-regulation, confidence, and the ability to handle setbacks How pressure, over-scheduling, and a focus on rankings and achievement can contribute to burnout and kids leaving sports altogether Why parents can become overinvested in their child’s athletic path and how fear, identity, and financial investment can make stepping back difficult How neurodivergent athletes benefit from flexible, inclusive coaching that recognizes different ways of learning, communicating, and moving Why focusing on friends, fun, and fundamentals can help families choose programs that keep kids wanting to come back season after season Resources mentioned Kirsten Jones’ website Raising Empowered Athletes: A Youth Sports Parenting Guide for Raising Happy, Brave, and Resilient Kids by Kirsten Jones Kirsten on Instagram Kirsten on LinkedIn Raising Good Athletes on Apple Podcasts Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose by Jennifer Wallace A Conversation with Dr. Peter Gray About Restoring Childhood (Tilt Parenting podcast) Restoring Childhood: How to Set Kids Free in the Age of Anxiety by Dr. Peter Gray Parents are turning one of the best things for kids’ mental health into one of the worst (CNN article) Revenge of the Tipping Point: Overstories, Superspreaders, and the Rise of Social Engineering by Malcolm Gladwell Dr. Özgür Bolat on Why Rewards Backfire and the Real Science of Motivating Kids (Tilt Parenting podcast) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I was thrilled to have the chance to talk with Alfie Kohn about parenting and differently wired kids and dig into the concepts that many consider highly provocative and controversial because in many ways they are a radical departure from more traditional approaches to parenting, praise, rewards, punishments, discipline, and motivation. If you haven’t been exposed to Alfie’s work before, I encourage you to listen with an open mind and curiosity. Some of the concepts he shares today may challenge your ideas about raising kids, but if you know me, I deeply believe there is value is reconsidering everything we thought we knew about parenting. After having this conversation with Alfie, I became even more aware of things I was doing that I wanted to tweak as a way to better support Asher’s growth, and I’ve already noticed a difference in what’s happening in my family dynamic. I hope you get out a lot out of our conversation.   Alfie Kohn writes and speaks widely on human behavior, education, and parenting. The author of fourteen books and scores of articles, he lectures at education conferences and universities as well as to parent groups and corporations. Kohn’s criticisms of competition and rewards have been widely discussed and debated, and he has been described in Time magazine as “perhaps the country’s most outspoken critic of education’s fixation on grades [and] test scores.”   Things you’ll learn from this episode What “unconditional parenting” looks like Why Alfie believes a goal of raising compliant kids is misguided What the science says about rewards and punishments and why they tend to lead to the opposite result we’re going for The potential downsides of positive reinforcement and “praise” in relation to supporting our children’s development and personal growth The difference between love and unconditional love, and why the latter is what we want our children to feel The importance of focusing on long-term versus short-term goals for our children Alfie’s advice for where parents can start today when it comes to working toward a more unconditional parenting approach Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Debbie talks with education reporter Anya Kamenetz about her six-episode limited podcast series produced in collaboration with Understood, Zero Reject, and why special education is at a crossroads in the US. They trace how special education evolved from exclusion and institutionalization into a civil rights framework, and how underfunding, staffing shortages, and policy shifts shape families’ experiences today. About Anya Kamenetz  Anya Kamenetz is an award-winning journalist, author and podcaster. She covered education for many years including for NPR, where she co-created the podcast “Life Kit:Parenting.” Her last book was The Stolen Year: How COVID Changed Children’s Lives, and Where We Go Now. Kamenetz is currently an advisor to the Climate Mental Health Network, working on new initiatives at the intersection of children, well-being, education and climate change.Her next book, forthcoming from Bloomsbury in 2027, is about mental health and emotional resilience in a world of crisis. Her newsletter on these topics is “The Golden Hour.”  Things you'll learn from this episode  Why special education is a civil rights issue and how disability rights protections affect millions of students and families How family-led advocacy and legal challenges led to the creation of IDEA and the rights students have today Why staffing shortages, limited placements, and inadequate resources can prevent schools from meeting students’ needs How the Office for Civil Rights helps families address disability discrimination and why changes in federal oversight matter Why teachers are often caught between wanting to support students and lacking the training, resources, and support to do so How universal design for learning, evidence-based instruction, accessible technology, and better teacher support can create more inclusive schools Resources mentioned Zero Reject Podcast Anya Kamenetz’s website Anya on Twitter The Stolen Year: How Covid Changed Children’s Lives, and Where We Go Now by Anya Kamenetz Anya Kamenetz Talks About Her Book, The Art of Screentime (Tilt Parenting podcast) NPR Ed Blog The Art of Screen Time: How Your Family Can Balance Digital Media and Real Life by Anya Kamenetz Education Attorney Catherine Michael on IEPs, 504s, and Accommodations (Tilt Parenting podcast) Dismantling Ableism in Schools and Shifting Toward Universal Design for Learning, with Heather Clarke (Tilt Parenting podcast) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a world overflowing with information and complexity, critical thinking isn't just a useful skill; it's an essential life raft. From navigating complex interactions to making informed decisions, our children need the ability to think critically now more than ever. But what does that really mean? And how can we as parents nurture this skill in our children? I invited author and Brave Writer founder Julie Bogart back to the show to help us answer these questions and to talk about her new book, Becoming a Critical Thinker: A Workbook to Help Students Think Well in an Age of Disinformation. In this conversation, we got into so many things. And as you’ll hear, I could have talked to Julie for hours. But for this episode, you can expect to hear Julie’s thoughts on how and why we can foster critical thinking in our children, how considering multiple perspectives and incorporating diverse viewpoints leads to better problem-solving, what parents can do to encourage self-awareness, open-mindedness, and curiosity, and much more. Things you'll learn from this episode Why critical thinking is essential to navigate complex issues and make informed decisions How considering multiple perspectives and incorporating diverse viewpoints leads to better problem-solving and policy-making How parents can play a crucial role in fostering critical thinking skills in their children by encouraging self-awareness, open-mindedness, and curiosity Why traditional models of authority and obedience in parenting are being replaced by a more collaborative and respectful approach that values children's reasoning and autonomy How the Becoming a Critical Thinker workbook helps students develop skills such as vetting sources, analyzing data, and considering multiple perspectives Why engaging in perspective-taking and tolerance can help neurodivergent kids deconstruct ideas and accept other points of view Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Functional nutrition practitioner and ADHD life coach Amy Jones joins me to talk about something that can be surprisingly complicated in neurodivergent families: feeding ourselves and our kids. Amy explains why the challenge for so many neurodivergent people isn’t knowing what we’re “supposed” to eat, but figuring out how to actually make nourishment happen when executive function, sensory preferences, appetite changes, decision fatigue, and low-capacity days are part of the picture. We also talk about supporting blood sugar, making food more visible and accessible, reducing mealtime stress, and creating simple, low-friction systems that make eating more doable for both kids and adults.   About Amy Jones Amy Jones is a Certified Functional Nutrition Practitioner, Certified ADHD Life Coach, and Certified Teacher who spent nearly 20 years in education before moving into functional nutrition and ADHD coaching. She supports neurodivergent adults, parents, and overwhelmed families who are struggling with food, energy, executive function, and daily functioning. Amy is also a late-diagnosed ADHD adult and a mom of two neurodivergent kids, including a son with ASD and ADHD, which shapes her understanding of food, routines, capacity, and family life. Her work focuses on the gap between what people know would support them and what they can actually access in daily life. Through functional nutrition, ADHD-informed coaching, and practical food systems, Amy helps families understand why feeding themselves and their kids can become harder when ADHD, decision fatigue, sensory load, appetite changes, and low-capacity days affect daily functioning. Amy is the creator of the Accessible Nourishment Framework and WTF’s for Dinner, a food system designed to reduce food-related decision load and make nourishment more manageable. Things you'll learn from this episode  How ADHD, dulled interoception, and stimulant medication can make hunger cues easy to miss until irritability, brain fog, or dysregulation shows up Why combining protein, fat, and fiber can support steadier blood sugar and more consistent energy throughout the day How standard nutrition advice can create too much executive function load for neurodivergent people and families Why micro shifts, meal assembly, and pairing new habits with existing routines can make nourishing ourselves more doable How respecting sensory preferences and safe foods reduces mealtime pressure and supports a healthier relationship with food Why making food visible and accessible and using shortcuts like standing grocery orders, meal kits, and planned takeout can provide essential scaffolding on low-capacity days Resources mentioned  Amy Jones website Your Guide to What To Do When Food Feels Like Too Much Amy Jones on Instagram Amy Jones on Facebook Amy Jones on Threads Amy Jones on LinkedIn Amy Jones on Pinterest Amy Jones on YouTube Amy Jones on TikTok The Joy of Cooking Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I really enjoyed exploring unschooling, deschooling, freedom, and liberation with Akilah Richards, host of the Fare the Free Child podcast and author of the book Raising Free People: Unschooling as Liberation and Healing Work. I reached out to Akilah after seeing her TED talk, which led me to her book, and then her podcast, and I knew I wanted to invite her to join me in conversation. A recurring theme in this podcast, and in Tilt, is doing our own inner work as parents, and I love how Akilah talks about relating our own reparenting to freedom, decolonization, and liberation. Akilah shares her personal story of going from traditional schooling to unschooling to deschooling, and how she and her husband came to consider the idea of raising free people, what that means, and how they’ve navigated the realities of making unconventional choices that can sometimes make other people uncomfortable. She also shares how they think about the success and what a fulfilled life looks like for her family, as well as how her work aimed at decolonizing parenting has resonated with people worldwide. You'll learn: What it means to be raising a “free child” and why it can be a threatening or uncomfortable concept for many people What “mad question asking” is and how parents can use it to get unstuck How unschooling is tied to decolonization What “deschooling” is versus “homeschooling” and “unschooling” What “confident autonomy” is and why Akilah considers that a hallmark of “success” in her children How Akilah and her partner dealt with the barriers (social, cultural, and more) when they chose the unschooling path for their family What a “savor complex” is and how it can transform the family experience Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Journalist and author Jessica Slice comes back to the show to share her family’s experience with PANS, or pediatric acute-onset neuropsychiatric syndrome, which began when her daughter experienced a sudden and severe change in behavior and functioning following a viral illness. Jessica recently shared her story in a viral article in New York Magazine, and today she takes us deep into what happened to her daughter, the medical dismissal her family encountered, and the long path toward getting a diagnosis and treatment. We also dig into why PANS and PANDAS remain controversial, what researchers believe may be happening in the brain, and what Jessica learned through both her family’s experience and her reporting. And importantly, we talk about what parents can do if their child experiences a sudden, dramatic onset of symptoms that they suspect could be PANS or PANDAS, including where to begin and how to advocate for care. About Jessica Slice  Jessica Slice is a journalist, author, and podcaster. Her book, Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World was one of NPR’s top books of 2025. She has been published in Modern Love, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, the Atlantic, the Guardian, The Globe & Mail, LitHub, Alice Wong’s bestselling Disability Visibility, Slate, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, and more.She’s been featured in Vogue, The New Yorker, PBS, NPR, The Cut, the BBC, etc. She is the co-author of Dateable: Swiping Right, Hooking Up, and Settling Down, This is How We Play, This is How We Talk, and the forthcoming We Belong which was co-authored with the late Judy Heumann. She lives in Toronto with her family. Things you'll learn from this episode  How Jessica’s daughter’s sudden, dramatic loss of functioning after a routine virus ultimately led to a PANS diagnosis Why PANS symptoms can be mistaken for psychosis, autism-related behavior, or other mental health conditions, potentially delaying appropriate care How PANS differs from PANDAS and why infections beyond strep may be associated with sudden-onset neuropsychiatric symptoms What researchers are exploring about immune dysfunction, the blood-brain barrier, and the basal ganglia in understanding PANS Why controversy, conflicting medical guidance, insurance barriers, and treatment costs can make accessing care extraordinarily difficult for families How parents can advocate for evidence-based care, evaluate trustworthy medical information, and keep pushing when their child’s sudden changes aren’t adequately explained Resources mentioned  Life with PANS: When a Virus Causes Psychiatric Symptoms (Jessica’s story in New York Magazine) Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World by Jessica Slice Jessica Slice’s website Jessica Slice’s Whatever What Is (Substack) Jessica on Instagram Jessica Slice on What We Can All Learn from Disabled Parenting (Tilt Parenting podcast) PANS/PANDAS Physicians Network Page PANS/PANDAS Support Groups Allison Raskin on the Made Visible podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Beth Gellman-Beer spent her whole career fighting for kids with disabilities — first as a student written off as “lazy,” then as a federal civil rights attorney who found her dream job protecting students like her younger self. But on one ordinary night, a phone call changed everything: Her entire office had been eliminated. In the premiere of Zero Reject, reporter Anya Kamenetz traces Beth’s journey from an unfair fourth-grade classroom to the front lines of a sweeping overhaul at the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights — the agency families turn to when a school isn’t meeting their child’s needs. Anya breaks down the reduction in force that gutted OCR’s staff, what it means for the 25,000 families still waiting for a response to their complaints, and the plan to dismantle the Department of Education altogether. With fewer people to enforce the law, what happens to the students the system was built to protect? https://lnk.to/zerorejectFD!fulltiltparenting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Psychologist, speaker, and author Dr. Mona Delahooke talks about her new book Brain-Body Parenting, and the power in understanding and responding to children's complicated behavior as a symptom rather than a problem. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m welcoming Amanda Diekman back to the show to talk about her new book, The Parents Handbook for Kids in Burnout: A Low Demand Approach to Healing and Thriving, and what parents need to understand when their child is experiencing burnout. Amanda will explain what burnout actually is, how it can show up differently across childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood, and why it’s so often mistaken for anxiety or depression. We talk about the signs parents may miss, what’s happening beneath the surface when a child can no longer meet the demands of everyday life, and how a low demand approach can create the conditions for healing. And importantly, Amanda shares what recovery can look like, how parents can support their child without inadvertently adding more pressure, and why healing from burnout requires us to rethink our expectations, timelines, and ideas about progress. About Amanda Diekman  Amanda Diekman is the author of the bestseller Low Demand Parenting and also the exhausted mom of three kids who have all experienced burnout. With relentlessly hopeful determination, Amanda turns her struggles into signposts, guiding the way into true healing for burned out kids—and their parents too. She lives in Durham, NC, and spends her days homeschooling, writing, and supporting vulnerable neighbors. Things you'll learn from this episode  How low demand parenting goes beyond simply asking less and instead centers attunement, collaboration, and responsiveness to a child’s capacity Why burnout is a protective response to prolonged stress and how it can be mistaken for anxiety or depression How pervasive exhaustion, loss of skills, and extreme sensitivity can signal that a child is experiencing burnout Why burnout may progress from “I can’t do this” to withdrawal, disordered eating, self-harm, or other risky behaviors How the three phases of burnout—from total rest to returning curiosity and recovery—can help parents understand the healing process Why trusting a child’s signals, finding community, and holding onto hope are essential for supporting recovery Resources mentioned  Amanda Diekman’s website The Parent’s Handbook for Kids in Burnout by Amanda Diekman Low-demand Parenting: Dropping Demands, Restoring Calm, and Finding Connection With Your Uniquely Wired Child by Amanda Diekman Amanda Diekman on Instagram Why is everything so hard? Quiz on Amanda’s website Parent Coach Amanda Diekman on Low-Demand Parenting & Finding Connection with Your Child (Tilt Parenting podcast) A Deep Dive Into Autistic Burnout with Jodie Clarke (Tilt Parenting podcast) A  Conversation with Dr. Megan Anna Neff About Autistic Burnout (Tilt Parenting podcast) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Lori Desautels (author, Connections over Compliance: Rewiring our Perceptions of Discipline) helps educators, parents, and adults who work with children shift the way they think about discipline by reaching for sustainable behavioral changes through brain state awareness rather than compliance and obedience. She’s actively pushing back against reactive and punitive practices that can potentially reactivate the developing stress response systems of children, and is advocating for stronger co-regulation practices and regulated brain and body states for adults.  During this conversation, we consider why there is such a powerful foundational belief that discipline and punishment go together, what happens when the traditional methods of punishment are imposed on children who are coming to school with trauma or a heightened nervous system, and why it’s so important for educators to take responsibility over their own nervous system regulation.  Dr. Lori Desautels, has been an Assistant Professor at Butler University since 2016 where she teaches both undergraduate and graduate programs in the College of Education. Lori’s passion is engaging her students through the social and relational neurosciences as it applies to education by integrating the Applied Educational Neuroscience framework, and its learning principles and practices into her coursework at Butler.  Things you'll learn from this episode: Why there is such a powerful foundational belief that discipline and punishment go together What happens when the traditional methods of punishment are imposed on children who are coming to school with traumas or a heightened nervous system Why we should be moving away from the behavior management model Why it’s so important for educators to take responsibility over their own nervous system regulation Strategies for helping teachers (and parents) better show up for dysregulated kids Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Eli Weinstein, a clinical social worker, husband and dad of two, creator of ELIvation, and host of The Dude Therapist podcast, about the pressure cooker that parenthood can create for couples, and what it actually takes to stay connected when life gets loud. In our conversation, Eli and I dig into the expectations, resentment, mental load, and communication breakdowns that can strain relationships during the parenting years, and he shares practical, real-world tools for repair, clearer communication, shared responsibility, and keeping our partnerships strong along the way. About Eli Weinstein  Eli Weinstein, LCSW, is the therapist bringing heart and humor back to mental health. A loving husband and proudly goofy dad of two, Eli is based in Las Vegas and runs a thriving practice serving clients across New York, Nevada, and beyond through his global coaching work. Known for his straight-talking, relatable style, he’s the creator of ELIvation and host of The Dude Therapist podcast, where he dives into the messy, beautiful mix of relationships, parenting, and emotional growth. An international speaker and sought-after guest, Eli has been featured on over 250 podcasts and major media outlets including The Kelly Clarkson Show, Psychology Today, Parents.com, Men’s Health Magazine, and leading relationship and parenting platforms. His debut book, From I Do to We Do: Navigating Marriage Through Parenting Years (Wiley, 2026), helps couples stay connected when life gets loud. Eli’s mission is simple: make therapy-level wisdom feel human, hopeful, and real. Things you'll learn from this episode  Why becoming parents can expose mismatched expectations, perceptions, and assumptions within a relationship How making the invisible mental and emotional load visible can create more understanding and shared responsibility Why truly sharing responsibilities means allowing your partner to take ownership and do things their own way How setting the table before difficult conversations can reduce defensiveness and make space for honest communication Why tools like a couple’s journal can help partners process feelings and communicate more thoughtfully How benefit of the doubt, active kindness, and simple gratitude can help couples stay connected through burnout and stressful seasons  Resources mentioned Eli Weinstein’s website From I Do to We Do: Navigating Marriage in the Parenting Years by Eli Weinstein Eli’s podcast, The Dude Therapist Eli Weinstein on Instagram The Dude Therapist on Instagram The Gottman Institute Dr. Sue Johnson and Emotionally Focused Therapy An Intimate Conversation with Debbie & Derin About Their Co-Parenting Journey (Part 3) (Tilt Parenting podcast) Debbie & Derin on Their Parenting Journey: Part 2 (Tilt Parenting podcast, 2018) Debbie & Derin on Their Parenting Journey: Part 1 (Tilt Parenting podcast, 2017) Dr. Phil Stutz Martina Nova Talks About Same Page Parenting (Tilt Parenting episode) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

New York Times' bestselling author Katherine May (Wintering) talks about her new book, The Electricity of Every Living Thing, about her journey of discovering her identity as an autistic woman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Research psychologist Dr. Rachel Kowert comes back to the podcast for a fascinating and updated conversation about kids and gaming, and why so much of what parents hear about video games doesn’t necessarily line up with what the research actually tells us. In our conversation, we dig into Rachel’s new white paper, Raising Good Gamers, and unpack the research around violent video games, gaming disorder, mental health, and the social, emotional, and skill-building benefits gaming can offer. Rachel also shares her SPACE framework, a practical approach for helping parents move beyond fear and toward curiosity, connection, and collaborative boundaries around their kids’ gaming lives. ​ About Rachel Kowert, Ph.D Rachel Kowert, Ph.D is a research psychologist, award winning author, and globally recognized leader in facilitating policy development for more than 15 years through data-driven research focused on mental health and trust and safety in digital games. She has spoken about her work to thousands of people across the globe, including the United States Congress, United Nations, and Department of Homeland Security. Dr. Kowert is the founder of Psychgeist, a multimedia content production studio for the intersection of science and games, which includes Psychgeist YouTube channel (200+ videos), Most Recent Save podcast, and The Psychgeist of Pop Culture and Games book series’ published by Play Story Press. She currently serves as the Research Director for Games for Change and is a Visiting Researcher at the University of Cambridge. Things you'll learn from this episode  How the conversation around kids, screens, and video games is evolving as research challenges common fears and assumptions Why violent video games aren’t directly linked to real-world violence and what “gaming disorder” actually means How increased gaming can sometimes signal underlying mental health challenges or serve as an important coping strategy Why gaming can support friendships, connection, confidence, competency, and executive function skills How the SPACE framework helps parents stay engaged and curious about their child’s gaming world Why collaborative, flexible boundaries can support healthier gaming habits while preserving connection and trust   Resources mentioned Dr. Rachel Kowert’s website Raising Good Gamers website Games for Change Games for Change on Instagram Games for Change on Facebook Entertainment Software Association (ESA) The Truth About Video Games and Your Child’s Physical, Social, and Psychological Well-Being with Dr. Rachel Kowert (Tilt Parenting podcast) A Parent’s Guide to Video Games: The Essential Guide to Understanding How Video Games Impact Your Child’s Physical, Social, and Psychological Well-Being by Dr. Rachel Kowert Purplicious Cow on CurseForge   Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to https://heypolo.com/tilt or use code TILT and get 70% off your first year! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Performance poet and advocate LeDerick Horne talks about his journey with a hidden disability, his advocacy work, and how he found his love for poetry. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices