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There is no fear or pain quite like the trauma a woman experiences when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or everyday chaos, abusers know one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children. If you’re going through this and need support, come to our online support group for betrayal trauma. FIVE TRUTHS: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU My ex husband’s emotional abuse didn’t stop after divorce. I thought leaving would end the chaos. It didn’t. It just changed form. In my case: My ex husband used the kids to create more chaos. He undermined their care and disrupted their schedules by canceling appointments and refusing to take them to activities. The system didn’t protect me. I believed that if I showed the truth in family court, they’d support me in protecting my children. What actually happened: When I went back to court six years later to request a reduction in his parenting time…they granted him more. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the system doesn’t always see his interference for what it is. Doing more didn’t fix it. I had documented everything and communicated my reasonable requests clearly. But: None of that changed his behavior. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, more communication and effort on your part just gives him more material to twist, escalate, and use against you later. He didn’t want resolution, he wanted control I kept thinking we could figure it out. That we could land on something that worked for the kids. But his goal wasn’t peace, or parenting, it was control. He contradicted what I said, ignored what the kids needed, and created conflict, even when it made no sense. Strategy, not effort, is what changed everything. The turning point wasn’t trying harder. It was doing something completely different. For me: I stopped focusing on getting him to understand, or getting the court to fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the only thing that changes the outcome is strategy. This led me to develop the strategies that eventually became my workshop that teaches women what to do after betrayal. And about a year later…everything changed. LETTING ANGER FUEL STRATEGIC ACTION Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. It’s impossible to co parenting with a narcissistic parent. They want chaos and enjoy the fight. To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and develop good boundaries. Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom. It’s understandable and reasonable to be angry. Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger. They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice. WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU: ABUSE BY PROXY If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress. It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something that I recorded years ago before I really understood what my ex-husband was doing to me and my children, and I certainly didn’t know what to do about it. At the time of the recording, I was divorced. On paper, I had a decent custody arrangement. But behind the scenes, my ex is an attorney and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me and neglecting the needs of our children on almost a daily basis. In fact, he still is now. I have a son with a processing disorder. He was undermining his medical care. Canceling his appointments. He refused to support any of our children’s extracurricular activities. Every day was chaotic. So I did what I thought was in the best interest of my children. I went back to court thinking that if I could just present the truth, things would get better for my kids. Instead, he got more custody. I was devastated, and you’ll hear that in my voice in this recording. Fighting a narcissist for custody is awful. If you’re in a situation where your ex-husband is using the kids to hurt you. These are a few things that I wish I understood back then. THINGS I LEARNED THE HARD WAY, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU First. If you share kids, emotional abuse doesn’t stop after divorce. It just changes how it shows up. Since he can’t control you directly, he’ll use the kids to control whatever he can. Second. The civil court system is not likely going to protect you from his ongoing abuse. In fact, they’ll probably think that you’re making it up or that you’re overreacting. Now, this isn’t true. I totally get it. They perceive that just two adults can’t get along. They don’t understand the truth. There’s no way that you can get along with someone who is undermining you and lying all the time. Third, doing more doesn’t fix it. I tried being clear, cooperative, reasonable. None of it helped. Fourth, it was hard to wrap my head around the fact that he actually did not want solutions. He wanted all the privileges of being a parent without any of the responsibility. Once I understood that, everything started to make more sense. Fifth for me, strategy, not effort, changed everything. My turning point was not trying harder. It was actually doing something completely different. I’m a woman of faith and I believe in God and I study the scriptures a lot, so I’m gonna talk about how I came to know these strategies. We are interfaith inner paradigm here. So even if you’re not religious or you don’t believe in God, hopefully the way I explain these strategies will be helpful to you. ‘ Cause right after I recorded this, I was so devastated I changed my prayers. I started asking God, like what strategies I should use so that he could deliver my children from their emotionally abusive father. And that question led me to study the scriptures on betrayal and deliverance and to pray. DISCOVERING STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU More importantly, discover these amazing strategies that did deliver us from his chaos. We’re completely free from him now, and it’s awesome. These aren’t courtroom strategies or communication strategies to get him to understand. They were strategies that reduced his ability to create chaos in our lives. So after using them for about a year, my ex signed what I called my miracle decree where his parent time was only one short weekend a month from Friday night to Sunday night, only two holidays a year, every spring break and Thanksgiving, and only two weeks during the summer. And I was given full decision making power. So as a result of this, my children had significantly less exposure to him and I didn’t have to deal with his like constant chaos, undermining the kids or using the kids to basically harass me with long legalese type messages. WRITING THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP Because they worked for me, I wanted to know if they would work for other women. So there were about five women who were going through what I was going through, and I said, “Are you willing to try these strategies? They did and these women said it changed everything. After I knew, this wasn’t just a fluke. We replicated it with five different women. I created the Living Free Workshop, so every woman who was going through this could learn it. In fact, we used the real life messages of the five women we worked with for the Workshop. So in section three, communication strategies, you’ll see their messages, and I think you’ll be surprised that they’re really similar to what you experienced. As you listen to this recording from the past, remember that at the time I recorded it, I didn’t know any of the strategies. We hadn’t been delivered. If you’re like, “Ah, I’m there, I’m where Anne was.” I want you to know that I totally understand what you’re going through, and there is a way out. These strategies really can protect your peace and your children’s peace without court even if he doesn’t change, but especially if he doesn’t change. For more information about my Living Free Workshop and these strategies, go to btr.org/living free. LOOKING BACK, THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING Okay, let’s cue the recording. Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ. For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardl

Are you looking for the best emotional abuse support groups online? Here’s what you need to know. 1. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE HAVE OTHER RESOURCES? The best emotional abuse support groups online have educational resources like a podcast, workshops, or even quizzes to help you understand exactly what’s happening to you. For example, did you know there are over 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take our free emotional abuse test to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types. 2. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE COVER ALL TYPES OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE? If the emotional abuse support groups online don’t understand betrayal trauma, which is trauma resulting from emotional abuse caused by infidelity and deceit, then the group may not meet your needs. 3. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE MEET MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY IN ALL TIME ZONES? There’s no telling when your husband will be emotionally abusive. When something happens and you need support right away, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session for emotional abuse. Check out the Group Session schedule. 4. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE ACTUALLY HELP YOU GET TO EMOTIONAL SAFETY? A lot of support groups blame you for what’s going on. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we never victim blame. Instead, we help victims figure out exactly what’s going on and what to do next through our Living Free Workshop. Key takeaways from this interview: The Long History of Women Being Left Without Support How a Culture of Misogyny Undermines Legal Support for Women How Institutional Betrayal Creates More Trauma When Leaders Fail to Enact Policies that Support Women Why So Many Women Don’t Know What to Search For TRANSCRIPT: HERE’S WHAT MAKES THE BEST EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE Anne: I have Elizabeth Estabrooks, MSW on today’s episode. She’s a writer, speaker, author with subject matter expertise on survivors of personal violence gained during her nearly 30 year career. She holds a bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science from Eastern Oregon University and a Master of Science and Social Work from Columbia University. From 2021 to 2022, she served on the VA National Domestic Violence Task Force. The secretary’s task force on inclusion, diversity, equity and access. The VA Sexual Assault Prevention Committee and the National Gender Policy Council Work Group. Her book, Broken in the Stronger Places: From Resilience to Resourcefulness is a memoir that spends her life from joining the military through her exit from the VA and the one year solo healing road trip that followed. We are talking about the lack of emotional abuse support groups online or support in general. Welcome, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me here, Anne. Anne: Were you in the military before you became a domestic violence expert? Elizabeth: Yes, I was in the military. It was post Vietnam. They had done away with the draft. And there had been a lot of changes. Women have served since the American Revolution. But many people are unaware, for a long time only 2% of the military could be women, and they couldn’t be officers. There was a lot they couldn’t do. For black women, it was even worse. WASPs were the Women’s Air Service Pilots. SERVICE WOMEN’S FIGHT FOR SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY Anne: They are so inspiring, by the way. I encourage everyone to look them up. Elizabeth: Oh, it was amazing. Mostly white, but there were some Japanese women and there was one, indigenous woman. I don’t think black women were allowed. Because there was so much discrimination. Anne: Mm hmm, There were no emotional abuse support groups online. Elizabeth: So these women entered and they received special training so it was a big deal. The WASPs, flew 60 million miles. They flew into danger, all that stuff. When the war ended, the military sent women home without so much as a benefit or anything. There were a number of women who died in service and their family members were responsible for paying the money to send them home from England or wherever they were. The military considered women not real military members. That was the status of women. So in 1948, Truman signed the Women Armed Forces Integration Act, post World War II. It gave women full-time permanent status in the military. The exception prior to that act was that a certain number of nurses could remain ’cause they needed medical. And so as time went on, it began increasing. After the draft ended, volunteerism among men decreased, and they were having trouble staffing up the military. There were the WACs, Women’s Army Corps. The Navy informally called women WAVES. They had separate training. Their training included things like how to wear makeup. WE HAVE TO DO BETTER FOR WOMEN Elizabeth: Then they disbanded in 1977. Jimmy Carter, being a feminist, said, “We have to do better.” The military started to send women to co-ed basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. I was in the second wave of women to go through co-ed. Anne: I feel honored to talk to you right now. This is a huge deal, and I am so proud of you. Helping women who had no emotional abuse support groups online or any other support. Elizabeth: Thank you. So, I talk about this in my book. We’re all a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds. You start at the welcome center, and then you get on the bus, and they take you to the company where you do your basic training. There’s camaraderie, we’re all joking and laughing, and being a bunch of teenage boys and girls. And we got off the bus and hustled into a formation, which was ragged as hell. ‘Cause we didn’t know what it was. The drill sergeants say to us, “This is your family now.” There were five male drill sergeants. “We help each other out.” They said, “Look to your front, look to your back, look to your left, look to your right. These are your brothers and sisters. They will always be there for you. They will always have your back.” And in the next breath, literally they said, “And for you females out there understand that we think there is no place in this man’s army for girls. And we’re gonna spend the next eight weeks showing you just how much we mean that. If we have anything to do with it, not one of y’all will make it through. EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: ADDRESSING MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE Elizabeth: Being in the field you’re in, you understand how that sets a culture. It set the tone to the men that had just been our buddies. Suddenly, we were othered and heard mumbles of, “Yeah, you don’t belong here, and we don’t have to be nice to you.” The drill sergeants just gave permission.” When I wrote the book, it occurred to me that what they did was set the direction of our future. Sexual harassment, you’re going to experience it and we don’t give a damn. So just deal with it. We’re gonna encourage it so that you’ll leave. There were no resources, no emotional abuse support groups online. Throughout basic training, there was a lot of real sexualized, misogynistic stuff that happened. From there, I went on to my training. I was in supply at Fort Lee, Virginia. That was only moderately better. We had more freedom, so we weren’t just confined to being in formation all the time and being with our drill sergeants. We would be walking by, say, a billet full of men. And they would literally hang out the windows and yell obscenities at us. If they were standing on the streets, they would grab their crotches, they would make all the obscene sounds and gestures that you can imagine. THE LAW ALLOWED WOMEN TO SERVE, THE CULTURE TRIED TO PUSH THEM OUT Elizabeth: That program at the time was a go at your own pace thing. It was a 12 week program, but you could get out anytime you finished. So I finished it six weeks, because I was like, I gotta get the hell outta here. Anne: Yeah. Elizabeth: Then I was stationed in Kissingen, Germany at Harvey Barracks. I was the first woman in my company, and one of only, maybe not even a hundred on the whole base. It was brutal. It was constant harassment, constantly grabbed, assaulted in various ways. I consider myself lucky. I was one of the few women never raped during her military service. This was ongoing. Every minute of every day I was in uniform on base. Anne: I am so sorry. The overall feeling would have to be that my government doesn’t care about me as much as men. Elizabeth: That’s the vibe. Yeah, we were only there because the law forced them to have us there. Anne: That is so sad. It’s also so awful that the culture would permit people to treat other citizens like that, people who have signed up for service. Elizabeth: At that time, Ruth Bader Ginsburg made it possible for pregnant women to remain in the military. Up until that time, if you got pregnant while in the military, legally they could throw you out. Even though you could have a baby while in the military, you couldn’t join the military if you had babies unless you gave up custody. THE DOUBLE STANDARDS OF MILITARY POLICY Anne: Wow, so no man has to give up custody to join the military, but women do. Elizabeth: I said that exactly to the recruiter. And he said, “Oh, they’ve got wives and mothers. We don’t need to worry about them with their children.” Anne: That’s crazy. Elizabeth: He said that to me. He was such an a*****e. So my friend couldn’t join, because she was like, “I’m not giving up my children to join the military. That’s never gonna happen.” We were gonna join the buddy system, so I signed my name on the dotted line. I had no idea, I was 18 years old. Anne: I wanna just point out to you that you did the same thing that every other 18-year-old man would do. You’re not any different than any other person who’s joined the military. Elizabeth: Thank you. That was my en

If you searched “is watching inappropriate media cheating” you’re probably looking for clarity. For a woman who has just discovered what her husband has been secretly doing with his time, it feels like a betrayal because it is. It’s a betrayal if her husband is sharing his energy, attention, and loyalty with other women (thousands of them online). This episode is a two-part conversation with experts from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. This article answers the question: is watching inappropriate media cheating? But it also answers the question underneath it: “Why does my husband’s use of inappropriate media hurt me so much… even if apparently all men do it.” QUICK ANSWER: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? In marriage, yes. Because it meets the basic definition of cheating: He is engaging in sexual activities and directing sexual energy toward other people, often in secret, while expecting ongoing intimate access to his wife’s trust, body, and partnership. And your gut response to think that he’s cheating is logical. In fact, it’s how most women feel. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who told me how terrible it felt to find out about all his lies, including his lies about how he’s been spending his time online. Over the last almost two decades, my team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. So here’s what we know: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, HERE’S WHY Below is the “wife-brain” list, the one that finally puts words to what you already know. 1) CHEATING IS NOT LIMITED TO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON If your husband is pursuing stimulation from searching for and viewing other women online, he’s still directing intimate attention outside the marriage. He may argue “that it doesn’t mean anything” because there’s no physical contact. But your marriage is real and your natural reaction to his choice to pursue arousal with other women is healthy and real. 2) IT’S ALMOST ALWAYS BUILT ON SECRECY AND SECRECY IS BETRAYAL I interviewed Christen Price, an attorney at The NCOSE and we talked about how the strongest tactic of coercive control is lying to maintain power and a preferred narrative. If your husband has a pattern of using hidden or secret apps, unusual password protected accounts, and deflection, anger, or mockery when confronted, that isn’t him just needing “privacy.” He’s engaging deception, which is an obvious marker when asking, “is watching inappropriate media cheating?” 3) IT UNDERMINES INFORMED CONSENT INSIDE YOUR MARRIAGE Women generally consent to a marriage based on a certain set of sexual boundaries that they expect both partners share. If he’s not staying inside those boundaries (and lying about it), she’s not able to consent, either to the relationship itself or to intimacy in the relationship. She’s being kept in the dark so he can keep living a double life. Because he wants to keep the benefits of the relationship, without staying within the boundaries. That’s not partnership. That’s exploitation. 4) IT’S NOT “JUST CONTENT.” IT’S ACTUALLY EVIDENCE OF ABUSE in my interview, Christen defines image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) as the creation, threat, sharing, or use of sexual images/videos without consent or for exploitation. And then she lists what falls under that umbrella: sextortion non-consensual sharing (often called “revenge porn”) hidden-camera recordings (locker rooms, showers, bedrooms, hotel rooms) “upskirting/downblousing” AI-generated or manipulated sexual images made from real photos harassment using sexual content Here’s the gut-punch for wives: Her husband is watching other women being abused. When a husband says, “I would never do anything to hurt you,” he may believe that he’s not harming anyone because he’s just looking at “images.” But the inappropriate media industry involves the abuse and objectification of women, and by choosing to engage with it, he’s supporting it. 5) IT’S RELATIONAL INFIDELITY WHEN HE’S BONDING SEXUALLY WITH SOMEONE ELSE Even if he has no emotional “relationship” with the person he’s aroused by on a screen, if his wife is left with distance, disconnection, and feeling like she’s competing with strangers, that’s infidelity. 6) IT OFTEN COMES WITH GASLIGHTING: “YOU’RE THE PROBLEM” Of course a husband using inappropriate media wants to maintain the narrative “I’m a good guy.” That’s why he lies about it. So when women are hurt by these lies, she gets labeled: insecure controlling prudish too sensitive the reason he does it That type of gaslighting is emotional abuse. To learn more and to see if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. 7) IT PUTS WIVES AT REAL RISK, SOMETIMES CRIMINAL RISK In helping women face this type of betrayal for almost two decades, I’ve heard some chillingly specific stories of husbands secretly recording wives in showers or during sex and posting it for financial gain. This is non-consensual recording and distribution. Even if you’re husband isn’t doing this, if he’s watching it, that’s what motivating other men to harm their wives or girlfriends. 8) IT TEACHES MEN THAT THEY’RE ENTITLED TO SEX WITHOUT INTIMACY Even if something is common or deemed acceptable by some people, that doesn’t make it healthy. Melea describes why industries like this resist regulation: they don’t want their profits to decrease. When consumption of inappropriate media is easy, private, and constant, it creates a culture where: women exist for sexualization male arousal is a “need” women’s bodies are commodities Wives often experience the effects of this cultural acceptance as: increased pressure to compete sexually decreased empathy and emotional presence an unwillingness to acknowledge and repair harm And all of these erode the foundation of safety and intimacy that marriage is supposed to be built on. 9) IT IMPACTS KIDS, DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY Even the most tech savvy husband who thinks he’s keeping it “private,” can’t guarantee that curious kids, with devices on shared Wi-Fi, won’t be impacted his browsing history. He’s not just risking damage to a marriage. He’s risking the emotional safety of your children. Melea Stevens, board member at The National Center on Sexual Exploitation, talks about a “filter bill”, which creates default safety settings on phones/tablets. WHAT TO KNOW WHEN SEARCHING “IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING” Most women search because they feel betrayed, and they don’t realize it’s exploitation. It’s not just cheating, he’s participating in the real exploitation of women and girls. Thinking “it doesn’t hurt anyone” dismisses the real harm done to real people and relationships. If your husband is consuming it, hiding it, minimizing it, and expecting you to live with the consequences of that lie, yes, it’s cheating. And it’s actually so much more. Christen Price and Melea Stevens from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation are on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why watching it is so harmful to women. TRANSCRIPT: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? HERE’S WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne: I have Christen Price and Melea Stevens on today’s episode. Christen serves as Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation Law Center. She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation. In her role at NCOSE Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as resources to stop human trafficking. Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse. Malea is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation. Welcome Christen. Christen: Thank you so much for having me. Anne: I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based abuse? FORMS OF IMAGE-BASED ABUSE Christen: Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes. So sometimes people call one form of this revenge posting of intimate media, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all. Anne: Right! I’ve spoken to human trafficking survivors who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around? Christen: It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat. In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of distribution of intimate images without consent. Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey. NEWS HIGHLIGHTS Christen: But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil

“How do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered?” might seem like an odd question to most people, especially at a time when technology makes access to media so easy. But for women who are in relationships with emotionally abusive men, the answer to that question is often the key to finding the help they need without risking exposure, especially if they share devices, or he keeps track of their browsing history. In this article we’ll cover the following: The basics about podcasts How to listen podcasts safely and privately Recognizing controlling dynamics in relationships How to avoid getting pulled back into his chaos Protecting yourself when systems fail Let’s get started. WHAT IS A PODCAST, EXACTLY? A podcast is typically a short, recorded discussion or interview about a specific topic of interest by a host and guest. For Example: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a discussion for women who have been betrayed by their husbands. Our episodes are released weekly, they’re short (usually around 30 minutes), and you can listened on a phone, tablet, computer, or smart speaker anytime that is best for you. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST – IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS STEP 1: FIND A PODCAST APP ON A SMARTPHONE Most smartphones already have podcast apps installed for you. For iPhone users: Look for and open the Apple Podcasts app OR download Spotify for free from the App Store For Android users: Download Spotify or YouTube Music from the Play Store These apps are free and they don’t require you to sign up for anything to start listening. STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO Open your app and search for: “Betrayal Trauma Recovery” You’ll see our podcast cover (with Anne Blythe’s name on it). Tap on the show and then tap “Follow” (or “Subscribe” depending on which app you’re using). STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST BY STREAMING OR DOWNLOADING EPISODES You can stream episodes instantly (using data or when connected to Wi-Fi) OR If you want to save an episode to listen to later, tap the download icon (a little arrow pointing down) Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app, so it doesn’t show up in your history. 5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT Here are a few extra tips for women concerned about privacy and safety: Use air pods or headphones to listen while doing chores, running errands, or on lunch breaks. Find btr.org/podcast in an Incognito or Private browser window, so nothing gets saved to your search history. Manually delete your listening history. Most podcast apps allow you to delete your playback or download history manually. Create a separate or hidden folder on your device for the podcast app. Use alone time or breaks to listen. Like a “walk to the mailbox” or “cleaning the bathroom” or folding the laundry, any time alone where you can press play and listen. Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. This is emotional self-care. LEAVING A REVIEW HELPS MORE WOMEN FIND HELP If Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped you feel less alone, and it’s safe to do so, consider leaving a short review. It helps women find the support they desperately need. Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.” THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY If you’re wondering what’s really going on in your marriage… Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma… If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse… Or your wondering how to recover after infidelity… Start here: 🎧 Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast 🎧 It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace. BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION? Try these listener favorites: The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story 3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast. TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor. Elinor: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing. Anne: How long had you been married when you found BTR? Elinor: 21 years, so a long time. Anne: Yeah, and how many children do you have? Elinor: I have three children with him. Anne: Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group? Elinor: So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it. THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY Elinor: Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone. He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time. Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation. It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES Elinor: Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something. Anne: That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that? Elinor: He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life. Anne: You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation. Elinor: Yes, drastically. Anne: Which is daunting. Elinor: I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face. MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM Anne: Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy? Elinor: I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul. Anne: That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her. They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital. How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him? Elinor: In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them a

By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already been through years of couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on marriage therapy for infidelity, hoping a professional will help them finally piece together what really happened. Therapists in recovery programs sometimes use a tool called a therapeutic disclosure to guide the couple to the “whole truth” about a husband’s history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. But these disclosures take months, even up to a year to complete, leaving his wife waiting on more information about the betrayals, being re-traumatized by each new revelation, and potentially exposing her to more lies and emotional abuse. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test. 5 WAYS MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY DELAYS EMOTIONAL SAFETY 1. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY OFTEN STARTS WITH THE WRONG QUESTION Marriage therapy for infidelity often starts by focusing on “why” a husband lied and cheated, even going so far as to frame it as a “marriage issue.” In this case, the betrayed wife is asked to patiently wait through her husband’s process of feeling safe enough to tell the truth. The first question a therapist should be asking is what his wife needs “right now” for emotional safety. 2. MANIPULATION OFTEN CONTINUES INSIDE MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Marriage therapy for infidelity isn’t a good fit for couples when a husband has lied to and manipulated his wife to hide his infidelity, because his choice to do those things is an individual character issue. If he hasn’t made any effort before now to admit this, to accept the consequences, or repair the harm his choices caused his wife, it’s likely that he’ll just continue his pattern of manipulation in therapy. 3. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN MISS THE REAL PROBLEM: EMOTIONAL ABUSE Infidelity involves lying, manipulation, coercion, and control, which are all forms of emotional abuse. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice. Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way prolong his manipulation and control of the situation. The therapist and his wife keep chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all. 4. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC In many recovery programs, therapists will try to help a husband who has lied and cheated to express remorse by using empathy statements. But if he doesn’t actually have empathy for his wife’s suffering, those tools can just be performative. He may sound understanding without truly changing his behavior. Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it. 5. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN PROLONG MANIPULATION The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety. Get Professional Support: Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. TRANSCRIPT: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne:  Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal trauma Recovery, they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction. Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused. I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens. Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process. I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today, And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview. 5 RISKS OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Here’s the quick overview: Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into. Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different. Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything. If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic. In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment. WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. THE RISKS Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist. He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapi

Do you feel anxious, confused, or unsafe in your marriage, but you can’t quite explain why? These 7 emotional safety examples can help you find clarity when your husband’s words sound loving, but his actions leave you feeling betrayed. Before we get to the list, to see if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse test. 7 EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES In this article you’ll see the following emotional safety examples: 7 Practical examples of emotional safety issues. Identifying his behaviors that threaten your emotionally safety. Realizing that your reactions to his emotional abuse are “normal.” What getting the right information means for your emotional safety. Honoring your needs and boundaries is essential as you decide next steps. 1. IF HIS ACTIONS DON’T MATCH HIS WORDS, TRUST WHAT YOU SEE How it Sounds: “I love you and I’d never do anything to hurt you or our family.” His promises could sound comforting, but his patterns are evidence that shows who he really is. If you find yourself assessing his mood or, rehearsing conversations afterwards to figure out what went wrong. Or realize the same issues never get resolved no matter how carefully you explain them, start trusting what you can see and feel. Emotional safety begins with trusting your instincts. 2. IF HE USES MONEY OR OTHER RESOURCES TO CONTROL YOU, UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS How it Sounds: “I’m just trying to take care of you. You don’t need to worry about the money.” It may feel caring or protective for your husband to take care of the finances, but if he is secretive about his purchases, monitors every purchase you make, withholds money, interferes with your ability to work, or makes you feel dependent on him for basic needs, that is not protection. It is control. Emotional safety examples, means you have access to money, transportation, information, food, medical care, and communication without having to beg, panic, or wait for him to decide whether you deserve them. 3. IF HE USES STRESS, SADNESS, OR HELPLESSNESS TO EXPLOIT YOU, PROTECT YOUR ENERGY How it Sounds: “I’m so overwhelmed lately. I need your help, so I can focus on recovery.” If your husband tries to pressure you into feeling responsible for his recovery by using stress at work or his overwhelming shame as an excuse to get you to schedule his appointments or keep track of his progress, it’s important that you protect your energy. Emotional safety means he considers you as a person with needs and a life of your own, not just someone who’s there to “help him” manage his. 4. IF HE TWISTS THE TRUTH AND BLAMES YOUR “POOR” COMMUNICATION, BE STRATEGIC: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES How it Sounds: “You never told me you had a problem with my behavior.” One of the ways a manipulative husband keeps his wife from discovering the whole truth about his addictions or affairs, is to keep her stuck in a cycle of confusion over communication. You might have already spent years crying and trying to explain how his choices are hurting you, only to have him say that he “didn’t understand because you didn’t explain it clearly” or because “he didn’t like being accused.” Emotional safety examples are not established by trying to perfectly explain why something hurts you. It’s recognizing that someone who benefits from deception has a strong incentive to pretend he never understood your concerns in the first place. 5. IF HE BLAMES YOU FOR HIS BETRAYALS, REMEMBER BLAME IS A DEFLECTION How it Sounds: “I wouldn’t have done this if you were more affectionate, less critical, or easier to live with.” If your husband blames you for his use of inappropriate material, cheating, emotional affairs, lies, or other betrayals, he is shifting responsibility for choices that were always his to make. Emotional safety examples begin with releasing yourself from any responsibility for the choices he has made. 6. IF HE SUGGESTS COUPLE THERAPY, SEEK EMOTIONAL SAFETY FIRST How it Sounds: “Let’s go to couples therapy so we can both work on our issues.” If your husband lies or withholds information that directly affects your reality, safety, health, finances, sexuality, or ability to make informed decisions, he uses coercive control. This is not a marriage issue. Traditional couples therapy is not designed to address ongoing deception and manipulation, especially when one person benefits from keeping the other and the therapist confused. Determining what you need for emotional safety, comes before focusing on repairing the relationship. 7. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: IF HE LIES ABOUT YOU TO OTHERS, PROTECT YOUR PEACE How it Sounds: “She’s unstable. She’s angry. She needs help. I’m really worried about her.” If your husband feels he is losing control, he may try to control the narrative. He might tell your “friends” that he’s worried about your mental health or tell your pastor that you’re bitter and unforgiving, or the counselor that you’re an angry person. He may even plant seeds of doubt about your character with your children, and try to pin the “marriage issues” on your reactions to his manipulations. It’s normal to feel like you have to defend yourself, but you do not owe unsafe people any explanation. Emotional safety examples include choosing grounded support, protecting your peace, and letting your consistent actions speak over time. Talk to women who can support you and validate you. We’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Anne: Okay, here’s my interview with Roxanna. I have a woman I actually knew in person from years ago when I went to 12-Step. She wrote a book called, Forgotten In The Battle of Sexual Addiction, the Journey of a Spouse. I’m honored to catch up, Roxanna. Let’s just start wherever you would like to start. Roxanna: Thank you Anne. I am excited to be here. When I met my husband and started building a family when we married, there were certain behaviors that he had that I thought were normal and that I needed to work around. I was in a 12-Step meeting one day when I suddenly remembered something from my childhood. My sister and I came home from school animated and excited. But when we hit the back door, we lowered our voices, and we immediately began assessing our situation. Was Dad home? Had he gone to the bar? Had he gone to his second job? Was Mom upstairs crying? Because our emotional safety examples revolved around an accurate assessment of his mood. And I realized I was doing the same thing. That I was to a place in the relationship where when I was around him, I assessed and responded to keep myself safe. Anne: Did you know that you were experiencing abuse? Roxanna: At that point, no, because it wasn’t until 24 years into the marriage and I refer to it as the bomb because it exploded my existence. It totally fractured everything that I had built my life around. THE TRUTH THAT EXPLODED MY EXISTENCE Roxanna: Now he came forward with a very sterile confession, but it was incomplete. About a week later, the spirit said, check his wallet. And I found motel receipts. I had a very flexible job, and the next morning, I checked our bank records. What I found sickened me: phone stuff, prostitution, strip clubs, inappropriate viewing. I mean, it was a bomb. Because of his vast flips in personality, I went from thinking he was bipolar to wondering who he was. Because it was clear to me that so much of my reality wasn’t as I knew it to be. And I asked him to meet me at a park, and I said, I don’t know what you’re doing or who you are, but if you don’t get help, I’m going to file for divorce today. He checked himself into a rehab center. And I got really sick, and I mean like eight months of illness, 12 times of being hospitalized, and he couldn’t continue the facade. Anne: Also, he can’t get you to do what he wants at this point, because you’re too sick to do it. You’re too sick to be exploited in the way he was exploiting you before. You’re too sick to be manipulated. I’m so, so sorry. Because that’s when you need the person to be there for you. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: They think that you’re created for them, but they don’t like giving back. Roxanna: Right, they objectify everyone around them. Anne: So the rehab center he checked into was for drugs and alcohol. Roxanna: Yes, but at the end the counselor said, “I think your husband is an addict.” And I countered with, ” What in the world is that?” I LEARNED TO MEET MY OWN NEEDS Anne: And no one identified any emotional, psychological, financial or spiritual abuse, at that time, not the therapist or anything? No one said anything about abuse? There were no emotional safety examples for me to follow. Roxanna: That therapist blamed me. And I looked at it as a two-way street. I was 46 when this happened, and gradually, I gave space, I gave Jack first a year. I didn’t do that verbally, but I did that in my heart and mind. Part of my learning process was to learn to hold boundaries with someone I didn’t think I could hold boundaries with. As I held boundaries and learned to meet my own needs. I learned to make decisions based on what I saw and what my truth was, not what he was telling me. It freed him to decide what he wanted. Anne: Well, he was always free to do what he wanted the whole time. Roxanna: But some of those boundaries allowed me to step out of the position of being blamed. Anne: He never had to blame you. Roxanna: Right, but he did. Anne: Yeah, the language “allowed him”, I’m like no. He was always free to choose. Roxanna: I look at myself and think I made a million mistakes, but were they mistakes? Probably not. One of the experiences I learned from a Saturday. I wanted it to be a wonderful day, and Jack just kept sulking on the couch. I r

We’d all like to believe that divorce stops abuse, but post separation abuse is so common. The truth is, abusers don’t stop wanting power over their victims, even after divorce. To learn if your ex-husband is continuing to abuse you after your separation or divorce, take my free emotional abuse test. WHAT IS POST SEPARATION ABUSE? Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection. 1. USING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO STAY IN CONTROL Post-separation abuse often is enabled by the court system that court orders women to co-parent with men who are manipulative and undermining them, lying to them. It causes so much chaos. He might be threatening to take you to court or using court orders that are meant to help you co-parent, to make things harder. 2. MAINTAINING FINANCIAL CONTROL Many men withhold things like child support or alimony so that you have to contact him to get it. That is actually a form of post-separation abuse, and they do it on purpose to make sure that they’re still relevant, that they can control what you’re doing so you have to be put through the wringer of contacting them every single time. 3. MANIPULATING YOUR CHILDREN’S LIVES Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety. GET THE RIGHT SUPPORT WHILE YOU ARE EXPERIENCING POST SEPARATION ABUSE At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers: Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches. Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Expert Support: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family. Accessible & Affordable: For just $125 a month, you have access to over 92 group sessions—providing real support at the cost of just one therapy appointment. Immediate Help: Attend a group session within hours and start receiving the support you need today. TAKE ACTION TO PROTECT YOURSELF DURING POST SEPARATION ABUSE You don’t have to face post-separation abuse alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help you take the steps necessary to protect yourself and your children. Attend a group session today, and join a community that understands your struggles and supports your healing journey. If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce. WITH POST SEPARATION ABUSE, BOUNDARIES ARE KEY Boundaries help victims separate themselves from abusive behavior. Boundaries are not: Ultimatums Consequences for bad behavior Mechanisms to control another person’s behavior Instead, boundaries are courageous actions that victims take to ensure they are as protected as possible from harm. Setting and maintaining boundaries in a divorce is key to navigating post separation abuse. WHAT ARE SOME BOUNDARIES THAT CAN HELP ME NAVIGATE POST SEPARATION ABUSE? Remember that boundaries aren’t going to stop your abuser from being abusive, but they are intended to limit your exposure to your ex-husband’s post separation abuse tactics. Some ideas of boundaries you can set and maintain include: Using a parenting communication app, like Our Family Wizard, as your sole mode of communication (consult with your attorney). Determining certain times of day, or days of the week, that you will check and respond to messages from your ex Bringing a family member or friend with you to drop off/pick up the children A STRONG SUPPORT SYSTEM IS ESSENTIAL WHEN NAVIGATING POST SEPARATION ABUSE Post-separation abuse can sometimes feel overwhelming. It’s imperative that victims develop a strong support network. Post separation abuse victims can find support from: Safe family members The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Trauma-informed specialists, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches TRANSCRIPT: THE TRUTH ABOUT POST SEPARATION ABUSE Anne: What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie Marcie: Hi. Anne: Can you start at the beginning of your story? Marcie: Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help. And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women. EARLY RELATIONSHIP DYNAMICS Marcie: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am. Anne: So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Marcie: Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Anne: And then you showed him, like, hey … Marcie: Yeah. Anne: … this will help you be a better person. Marcie: Yes. Anne: And since then, I am the devil. Marcie: Of course. Anne: And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course. Marcie: Yes. Anne: I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning. Marcie: I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things. Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations. And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us. APPEASING HIM Marcie: I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way. Anne: So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself. Marcie: Absolutely. Anne: You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop. Marcie: Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be. I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better. Anne: Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you? Marcie: I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy. UNDERSTANDING POST SEPARATION ABUSE Marcie: There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did. It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations. And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either. There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain

Most women would probably not describe their husband as misogynistic. But some examples of misogyny are so subtle, you may be surprised to realize your husband is doing them. 3 EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY 1. HE NEEDS A LIST FOR EVERY HOUSEHOLD CHORE Your husband might say he is happy to help around the house, but only if you tell him exactly what to do. He might expect you to write detailed lists, remind him to finish chores, or walk him through basic childcare tasks. By waiting for your directions before lifting a finger, or leaving things unfinished, he forces you to carry the entire mental load of running your home and maintaining your relationship. When your husband doesn’t help with the housework it shifts those responsibilities completely onto your shoulders, because of misogyny, leaving you feeling more like his personal assistant or his mother than his equal partner. 2. HE CHOOSES INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL OVER TRUE INTIMACY Many women might not even know this is happening. He might hide his misogyny. What a woman might notice is that her husband doesn’t seem truly interested in her. He might ignore her by spending long hours in his office or on hobbies, until he needs something from her. He may give excuses like, “I have a ton of work to do. You go to bed. I’ll come when I’m done” or “I’m stressed and I need to go cool off,” while he secretly uses that time to pursue fantasy over his real-life marriage. This behavior undermines the emotional and physical intimacy that is foundational to a healthy marriage, leaving you feeling isolated, unwanted, and unloved. 3. HE APPLIES DIFFERENT STANDARDS TO YOU THAN TO HIMSELF BECAUSE OF MISOGYNY Misogyny often shows up when your husband holds you to different standards than he does for himself. For example: he might criticize you for buying clothes or something for your home, while he spends freely on his personal hobbies, or he expects you to keep a tidy house while leaving his belongings scattered in every room. This double standard often extends to shared finances. He may hide money, refuse access to bank statements, or pat you on the head with phrases like, “I’ll take care of the finances, you don’t need to worry about it.” This behavior strips you of your voice and agency, leaving you in the vulnerable position of not having access to betrayal trauma resources you need to live in emotional safety. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. For strategies to deal with this type of abuse and establish peace in your home, enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Key takeaways from the interview: Recognizing Patterns of Misogyny in Relationships How Misogyny Interferes with Truth and Healing in Therapy When Your Husband Uses the Truth to Lie The Connection Between Misogyny and Inappropriate Media TRANSCRIPT: FINDING SUPPORT AND NAMING THE REALITY OF EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY Anne: Welcome Virginia. Virginia: Thank You for everything you do. I would be lost without BTR. You have seriously brought me back to life. Anne: Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. How did you find out about BTR and betrayal trauma in marriage? Virginia: It was the oddest thing. Something came up on YouTube that showed BTR.ORG. I tell you fate, whatever you wanna call it, I checked it out and that’s how I found BTR. When I started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. The first session, I couldn’t believe in a sense of relief that, oh, I’m not the only person living in this world. And not that it’s relieving to know that other women suffer in this manner. You feel like you’re on your own planet. And you don’t know what to do. Hearing the other women’s stories in what they’ve been through is just heartbreaking. But the ability to share and validate each other is amazing. And the coaches listen so well. The feedback they give is invaluable. They’re on top of it and they remember everything. I don’t know how they do it. I’m not on very often. I know other people are on much more often than I am. But I’m telling you, this is a lifesaver. It really is. I don’t know what else to say. I can’t say enough about it. Anne: I am so grateful. It’s helpful. I think our coaches are incredible. Our whole team is incredible. I think one of the reasons we’re incredible is because we’ve all been through it with misogyny, so we understand it on such a visceral level. And then we have really great training and we know what we’re talking about. UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY ARE IN MARRIAGE Anne: I’m really happy that it was helpful to you. Let’s start with your story and the misogyny you endured. Virginia: So I married my Chuck in 2002. I married once before for seven years. I have two children from that first marriage. It occurred to me after realizing what was going on in this current marriage. That I was also experiencing more physical abuse and sexual abuse in the first marriage. So this has been an eye opening experience. The entire beginning of our marriage, he made me feel unattractive. That he did not want to be intimate. He was tired, too busy, and worked so hard and all this. And I would think to myself, that doesn’t seem to add up to me, and I couldn’t quite understand. But as a woman, you take it out on yourself and think, what am I doing wrong? What am I not doing right? Am I not pretty enough? I had discovered so many things, pornographic materials, books, cross-dressing clothes in his car. Magazines everywhere. And I confronted him on this. Because here I am, newly married, with two small children of eight and six years old. My thought was, I can’t put them through this again. I can’t have another divorce, it will devastate them. And I knew at the time that it was wrong. He told me he was going to get help and take care of this. He brushed away a lot of it as nothing. I was just in shock and trusted him. FINDING INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL – MY HUSBAND BLAMED IT ON OUR SON Virginia: Fast forward a little bit. My son was about 10 and the basement was not finished at the time. I had it set up so the kids could play. And there was a little TV down here for them. Well, I found pornographic videos tucked into the couch and behind the couch. I went to my husband and said, “You’ve gotta be kidding with me right now. The kids play down there. You can’t do this. This is unacceptable.” And his answer was, ” Oh, it must be our son’s, he must be looking at the videos.” Anne: It’s just so offensive to me that they don’t even care about kids. They’ll exploit and use children. There’s no excuse for the misogyny. Virginia: Right . then three or four years later, I had upstairs in the kitchen, a computer. Because I want them to do their homework in there. This one night they went to bed. I was going to play solitaire and I find porn. So I called him out into the kitchen and again he swore, “I will get help. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that.” And went to therapy and all of this. So here we are. He’s been going to a 12-Step program for all this time. It’s been 20 years. This is an interesting thing, and I find common through conversations that I’ve heard through the other women. You know something is wrong, and I couldn’t pinpoint exactly what was wrong. DISCOVERING THAT HE’S HIDING MONEY Virginia: The first thing I found was the money. He was hiding money all throughout the house in books, you name it, thousands of dollars hidden. I didn’t tell him I knew that there was money hidden everywhere. He figured out that I found it, because all of a sudden the money was all moved out of the hidden places. I still, till this day, have no idea where all that money went. This is evidence of misogyny. He said, “We spent it”. I said, “No, we didn’t.” Then we started to redo the basement. I cleaned out the basement, and found every single one of those magazines. He supposedly threw away 20 years ago. I was furious and didn’t say anything. I packaged every single one of them up in trash bags. And I put them in the back of my car with a bunch of other boxes that I had cleaned out. And when I dropped off the donations, I was going to bring the trash bags with the magazines to the dump. He emptied all of those bags out of my car, every bag. And I never told them I found them. I didn’t say a single word. And I found them in the garage. I took them, and again, I didn’t say anything. I brought them out to the fire pit, and God forgive me, I burnt every single one of them because I was so mad. And two weeks later, he went out to the fire pit, and he came and he said, ” Hey, do you wanna help me clean up that mess out in the fire pit that you made?” And I said, “No, I really don’t.” EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – LOSING MY INDEPENDENCE Anne: Was he calm when he said it? Virginia: He’s always calm. Anne: That’s so scary. It’s like that chilling kind of calm, right? It’s like terrifying. Virginia: This has been a really difficult situation, because I was supposed to have retired. I am retired, but now I have no independence. And I’m trying feverishly to find a job, so I’m relying on him to pay the bills. I bought this house as a single mother with two small children. And I put his name on it when we married. So now, I’m in a difficult position, so I am here with him in the home with no choice right now, but to stick around until I can find another job. Anne: Until you can figure it out and realize the effects of misogyny.. I am so sorry. Virginia: It is so hard, yeah. Anne: I was gonna ask, before you found the money or the pornography, he was going to 12 Step ? Virginia: He would go every week. He wouldn’t discuss his sobriety, but it was SLAA , Sex, Love, Addiction Anonymous. It’s based off the same 12-Step that AA is

If you’ve been thinking, “I dislike my husband,” but you feel guilty about it because he’s supposedly improved himself lately, here’s what you need to know. WHY DISLIKING YOUR HUSBAND MAY SIGNAL SOMETHING DEEPER Here’s the thing: if you dislike your husband, you’re not weird and you certainly haven’t done anything wrong. But I bet you’ve been asking yourself… Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying? Is this normal resentment? Am I too unforgiving? Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper? In emotionally abusive relationships, there may be times when he apologizes or he may use language he learned in therapy to make it sound like he’s making progress. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of “Mr. Nice Guy.” IT’S OKAY TO DISLIKE HIM EVEN IF HE’S GETTING THERAPY If it’s unclear whether he’s emotionally abusive, or not, take this free emotional abuse test. Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean you’re having a reaction to a person who no longer feels emotionally safe to be around. This is exactly what we walk through in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave. Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm. BTR.ORG SUPPORTS VICTIMS OF EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE HUSBANDS For women who choose to stay married wondering “can my husband change into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband. TRANSCRIPT: I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone. So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome. Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on. Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, “I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,” conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time? Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately. But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends. EARLY “GREEN FLAGS” THAT LATER MADE ME QUESTION EVERYTHING Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else. Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this? Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so… Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her. Cece: Right. Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that. Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside. Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me. Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag. I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND, DOES THAT MEAN HE’S EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE OR THAT I’M BURNT OUT? Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.” I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.” And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?” “Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency. WHY IT’S OKAY TO DISLIKE YOUR HUSBAND Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says will couples counseling work. CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is. And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins. EXPERIENCING LOVE BOMBING & MIRRORING Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression. But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it. Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point. Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not? Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated. WHEN THINGS CHANGED AFTER OUR WEDDING, I REALIZED “I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND” Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it. Anne: Not like, gently. Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call. So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.” Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh. Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was a

If you constantly feel confused, exhausted, or to blame for every issue in your relationship, you might be dealing with covert narcissist traits that are difficult to name. Once you see them, everything changes. HOW TO SPOT COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: 5 BEHAVIORS TO NOTICE 1. HE’S YOUR INSTANT SOULMATE Notice if your relationship moves incredibly fast, and he seems perfectly tailored just for you.  It may be hard to remember this phase if you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years, but think back to when you met. Did it feel very serendipitous? Did it feel like you’d met your soulmate? That part can actually be grooming. Stay with me until the end, where I go into detail about my strategy for spotting this mirroring trap when you are dating. 2. CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS OVER TINY ISSUES You gently ask him to text you if he is going to be late coming home. Somehow, it turns into an exhausting debate about how “you’re so suspicious” or “you don’t appreciate how hard he works.” Instead of discussing plans together, these conversations become emotionally draining loops. It might look like simple “miscommunication” on the surface, but the pattern shows something else. Healthy communication leads to clarity, while this manipulative type of communication leads to pure exhaustion and self-doubt when dealing with covert narcissist traits. 3. THE BLAME-SHIFTING VICTIM TRAP  If you try to share a concern with a covert narcissist, he’s likely to put it back on to you. That happened to me. I’d tell him maybe that a sarcastic comment hurt my feelings, and the next thing I knew he would tell me that I hurt his feelings without acknowledging what happened to me at all. In my relationship, I would end up apologizing or trying to help him feel better, and meanwhile, my concerns were never addressed. If he’s constantly the misunderstood victim, he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his own bad behavior. 4. SPENDING TIME ALONE WITH HIM FEELS DEPLETING  You might notice that out and about, you have a good time together, like if you’re going to a movie or doing a project together. A lot of women describe how they might go to a dinner party with him, and everything is great. But the second they get into the car together, alone, he’s like cold, silent, completely disconnected. Maybe blaming her for how the party didn’t go well, even though the party went just fine. Or a vacation with the whole family usually goes pretty well. But if you just take a couple trips, it’s like not fun at all. Healthy relationships usually feel really great in downtime together, but if he has covert narcissist traits, alone time will feel a little weird. 5. HE HIDES BEHIND EXPLANATIONS WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS  If he continues to do really harmful things that you’ve never done and your healthy friends have never done, and then he explains it away by saying he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe stress from work, maybe an addiction, maybe even anxiety or depression. He might even say he’s struggling, confused, or working on himself. But if the behavior stays the same, those explanations only keep you stuck. Look at what he is actually doing right now to manipulate reality and harm your wellbeing. If you’re unsure if you’re experiencing covert narcissist traits, take our free emotional abuse test to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Key takeaways from the interview: Early Signs of Covert Narcissist Traits When Therapy and Labels Miss Emotional Abuse How to Help Victims of Covert Emotional Abuse Rebuilding Self-Trust After Covert Narcissist Abuse TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU SEE HIS COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS EVERYTHING CHANGES Anne: I interviewed three women from our community. We’re gonna start with Cynthia’s story, and then after you’re gonna hear from Maisie and Lorna. Welcome. Cynthia. Cynthia: Hello, Anne. It’s great to be here. Anne: So Cynthia, let’s start with your story. Cynthia: In the beginning he was so kind, generous. He had a great relationship with his mum. He was very outgoing and he built a very quick relationship with my mum as well. It made me feel very safe. This is great, like we’re all getting along. I had no idea he was hiding covert narcissist traits. We had a huge fight before the marriage, actually, and he got counseling that week. He came to me and said, “My therapist thinks you are the angry one, actually, not me.” So he’d managed to convince the therapist that I was the bad one. Anne: They very easily manipulate therapists. Because there’s lies. And then there’s levels of lies on those lies. We have no way of knowing what somebody said or didn’t say. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the therapist said that. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS APPEAR AFTER THE WEDDING Cynthia: absolutely. On the wedding day, his best man talked about him and showed pictures of him. There was one picture that was really awful. My family is quite conservative. I just remember feeling really embarrassed, like, what on earth have I done? Then it was the evening, I went to sleep. He said he was going to say goodbye to people, and I just thought he would come to bed maybe half an hour later, and I woke up at 4:00 AM alone in the bridal suite. Things just got worse from then on. I’d wanted to be a mum since I was seven years old. I was actually going through fertility treatment with him. And he was starting to blame my hormonal imbalance. It was just his way of putting me down every single month. He even got my mum convinced that I was in perimenopause. And at this time, I’d already engaged with a psychologist, because I just felt like this is impossible to do anything with him. I was on antidepressants. We went out for a walk one day and I said, “Okay, so if we’re going on holiday in December and you want to do the fertility treatment in January, does that mean you’re not going to use the sauna in the spa hotel that we’re staying in?” And he was like, “No, no, I still wanna use the sauna. Maybe I’ll just use for one minute.” I said, “Well then we’ll have to wait until April then, ’cause we have to wait then three months after the holiday to do the treatment. HE PRIORITIZED HIS PLEASURE OVER MY PAIN Anne: So was he like a huge sauna fan before this? When you’re dating and when you’re, first married was he like, “sauna is my life. It is the most important thing to me.” This is a clue for women to look for, this is a piece of the puzzle. If there’s something that he hasn’t really cared that much about before, and then suddenly he’s caring about it a lot, that might be an indication to you that he’s lying. Cynthia: In the year leading up to the treatment, he didn’t once use a sauna. Why isn’t he just use the sauna now if he’s desperate? He didn’t. All of a sudden became a tactic for him, I felt, to control me. He knew I desperately wanted a child and I spent thousands on freezing my eggs and all of a sudden using a sauna was more important than that. And you know we were talking about the whole sauna thing for about six weeks. Anne: That’s crazy. I just wanna tell you how crazy that is. you’re talking about a sauna for six weeks. It’s so heartbreaking ’cause it feels like he cares about this one thing more than he cares about me, not realizing that he cares about everything more than he cares about us. In the moment, it feels like this is just about that, but they somehow twist it to be well, you don’t want me to enjoy myself on this vacation? You don’t want me to relax. Like, I do everything for you and I work so hard for you, and you won’t even let me have fun on vacation. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS RUIN HOLIDAYS AND VACATIONS Anne: The likelihood of a couple therapist saying that this issue is a sign of something deeper, which is true, except for then they would go, that he’s not having his needs met. Cynthia: Yeah. Anne: That’s where they would’ve gone with it. They wouldn’t have said, he’s just not a good person. Because you’re just asking him not to go in a sauna. Like what is the big deal. It’s so stupid. Cynthia: Yeah. Anne: Holidays or vacations are something that generally we look forward to. We think we’re going to be able to connect. Although that can happen and sometimes it does. ‘Cause sometimes they amp up the grooming and the vacation is amazing. Generally speaking, vacations are miserable. I had a few of those where I didn’t wanna go. Both times before I told my family, I don’t even wanna go, is gonna go bad? And they were like, “No, of course it’s gonna be fine.” And it went so bad. So I got to a point where I was like, I don’t ever wanna go on vacation with him again. Did you have any good vacations with him? Cynthia: Yes, because generally our vacations were with family, so we would always go back to the UK and during that time there was other, people he could get attention from. When it was just me and him alone, it was the worst. HOW YOUR HUSBAND HIDES WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING Cynthia: The thought of going alone to this place, just the two of us, I was not looking forward to that. What I noticed is that when we had long weekends together, the two of us, I didn’t feel energized. I felt completely depleted. Anne: I have a few theories about pornography use related to vacations and weekends. Cynthia: I was just going to mention about the pornography. There was pornography use as well. Anne: Totally during the weekdays, they’re able to use porn at work, or they’re able to use work as an excuse to use pornography. But like a Saturday and a Sunday, there’s no reason to get away to do porn except manufacture a fight. And even if it doesn’t go super bad, he just isn’t able to connect for that long. that’s as deep as he goes. You’ve reached the bottom of the barrel. But that also might explai

If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone. Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached? WHY WOMEN NEED THESE BIBLE REFERENCES In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of The Great Sex Rescue, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name. Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty. THE MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE FOR WOMEN IN A CONFUSING MARRIAGE A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax. In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found. Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy. Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal. Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as: His need Her obligation A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden: “Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.” That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my free emotional abuse test. THE MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE NO ONE QUOTES When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored. Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm. 1. “DELIVER US FROM EVIL” — MATTHEW 6:13 Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.” Deliver. The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it. To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study. 2. “GUARD YOUR HEART” — PROVERBS 4:23 “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally. 3. “RESIST THE DEVIL” — JAMES 4:7 “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation. 4. “PUT ON THE ARMOR OF GOD” — EPHESIANS 6:10–18 Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real. The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself. Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves. 5. “GOD IS REFUGE” — PSALM 46:1 “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.” Refuge means safety. A marriage should provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God. 6. “HATE WHAT IS EVIL” — ROMANS 12:9 “Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.” Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself. HOW THE WRONG INTERPRETATION OF A MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE HURT GENERATIONS OF WOMEN Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that… “She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.” “All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.” “Her body is the solution to his sin problem.” The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have Lower marital satisfaction Higher pain Greater emotional disconnection Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience: Higher mutual satisfaction Better intimacy Greater physical responsiveness The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage. WHAT THIS MEANS FOR WOMEN WITH CHILDREN If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you. Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection. Examples in real life might look like: Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.” Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.” Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously. Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance. RE-FRAMING THE “MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE” REQUIREMENT Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness. If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home. The Bible does speak about marriage. But it also repeatedly commands believers to: Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13) Seek wisdom (James 1:5) Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4) Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances. TRANSCRIPT: MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE NO ONE QUOTES Anne: So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women. Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say. So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended. After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place? CHRISTIAN BOOKS CONTAINING BAD ADVICE: SHEILA’S JOURNEY INTO INTIMACY WRITING Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff. But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people. And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the

Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg. SEE IF YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU: 3 WAYS 1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed? Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time. 2. HE LIES TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY  If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our Betrayal Trauma Support Group online. Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough. 3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION  If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you.  If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this transcript you’ll find the following points: Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage The Impact on Children of His Exploitation TRANSCRIPT: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha. Misha: Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me. I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device. That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start teaching children how to set boundaries. WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY Anne: So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps? Misha: We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t. Anne: And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair. Misha: He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my husband was grooming me. So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed. SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Misha: He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better. He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps. Anne: That’s kind of a blessing actually. Misha: It actually was. Anne: Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist. Misha: Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000. Anne: Whoa. FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION Misha: ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us. Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding. Anne: So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time? Misha: I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it. I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER Anne: One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information. Misha: I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days. Anne: Good for you. Misha: Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer. Anne: Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone? Misha: I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM Anne: Like thirst traps sort of? Misha: Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday. I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.” I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead. HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING Misha: I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s milit

When trust has been broken, or when conflict keeps repeating in a relationship, many women begin searching for answers about boundaries in marriage. WOMEN NEED BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE AFTER BROKEN TRUST They’re not looking to control anyone or to escalate the situation. Most are simply trying to create safety. Sometimes the question sounds like: How do I set boundaries in marriage when my husband is unfaithful? How do I set boundaries with my ex while we’re co-parenting? Is it even possible to set boundaries when my husband emotionally abuses me? When everything feels confusing, chaotic, or intimidating, it can be difficult to know where to begin. Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies in her Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. “Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What action can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?” Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG SO, HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE WHEN EVERY TIME I TRY THINGS JUST GET WORSE?! Many of the women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement. Often, well-meaning professionals teach boundaries in marriage as: If/Then Statements Ultimatums Statements of desires or values Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation. 3 STEPS TO ESTABLISHING EFFECTIVE BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE You’ll know that your boundaries in marriage are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship? STEP 1: IDENTIFY THE CAUSE OF THE HARM The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries in marriage is identifying the actual source of harm. Ask yourself: Do I feel emotionally safe in my home? What specifically makes me feel unsafe? When do I feel the least emotionally safe? When do I feel the most emotionally safe? If you want to go deeper, take my free emotional abuse test. You can’t create safety until you understand what is causing the harm. Step 2: SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THE HARM After identifying the cause, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm? This is where true boundaries in marriage differ from what many therapists teach. Safety boundaries are not statements. They are actions. For some women, that action might look like: Closing a door Putting in headphones Blocking a phone number Limiting communication to email For others, it may mean: Physical separation Filing for divorce Reporting a crime Creating distance to observe safely The key question is not: Did I say the right words? The key question is: Has this boundary actually separated me from the harm? STEP 3: MEASURE WHETHER THE BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE ARE WORKING Effective boundaries in marriage are measurable. Are you experiencing: Less anxiety? Less chaos? More mental clarity? Physical calm? Emotional stability? If the answer is yes, your boundary is working. If the harm continues uninterrupted, it may not be a boundary — it may simply be a statement or a threat. Boundaries are not about controlling someone else’s behavior. They are about creating a protective barrier that actually protects you. ASK YOURSELF THIS QUESTION After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm? As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime. TRANSCRIPT: HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE? WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense. They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him. So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.” And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.” And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries. INTRODUCING STRATEGIES FOR CLARITY AND EMOTIONAL SAFETY Anne: And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the strategy for how to set boundaries in marriage that makes a lot more sense. In the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, I explain in super duper detail how to do this. And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries, communication boundaries, and boundaries when you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on. There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points. METAPHOR: PROPERTY LINE & TRESPASSING Anne: Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence. So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage. And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life. So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm? HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE: EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE Anne: So I want to take you through how this might work with emotional and psychological abuse. Statements like, you cannot treat me this way. I will not allow this in my home, they are just statements. They cannot keep you safe, so they’re not a boundary. With a couple therapists, addiction recovery therapists, or non-BTR coaches, if you’re doing “boundary work.” Your abusive husband’s therapist may be telling you to list things you will and will not tolerate to give him. Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist. Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him. THE IMPORTANCE OF EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY Anne: Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety. The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effe

If you’ve searched for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” it’s important to know these five things before you schedule an appointment. FIVE THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE SCHEDULING AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME 1. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR PROBABLY WON’T TELL YOU THEY CAN’T HELP YOU Most relationship therapists genuinely want to help, and they believe they have the right training and tools to help you. If helping couples overcome issues is their business and livelihood, it’s natural they don’t want to turn people away. However, many relationship counselors don’t really understand how emotional abuse works and how to screen for it. No matter what they do to help you, it will not help, and that lack of clarity can keep you in harm’s way longer, which benefits the counselor and the abuser…not you. So it’s really important to learn about emotional abuse first. 2. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR WON’T TAKE SIDES, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE PROBLEM A core part of relationship counseling ethics is that the counselor is not supposed to take sides. And that makes sense. But if your husband is abusive then it’s unethical to treat this as a couple problem when it’s not.  Even if the therapist says, “This is emotional abuse and I can still help you.” That’s not a thing. Because if he’s lying, he’s going to use those couple sessions to continue to lie and manipulate. 3. TALK THERAPY WON’T HELP IF HE HAS A HISTORY OF LYING OR MANIPULATION If your husband is lying, deflecting, or rewriting reality then, therapy is just gonna be more of that. There’s no way to convince somebody not to lie and manipulate, and you won’t know they’re doing it. Stay to the end—I’ll show you what the women in our community say they wish they’d known sooner. 4. MANY, MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN HARMED BY “AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME” After more than a decade of doing this work and hearing from hundreds of women who started by searching “affordable relationship counseling near me” or were referred by a friend, a clear pattern shows up. Many, many women have been extremely harmed by couples therapists who did not know that they witnessed emotional abuse inside their offices. In some cases, what the women shared in sessions was later used against them at home or in court. 5. PROGRESS CAN BE MEASURED BY YOUR FEELINGS, NOT BY HIS CHANGED BEHAVIOR  Therapists rely on what they’re witnessing inside of that session. So if your husband says he’s improving, if he says he gets it, if he says he’s sorry, then the therapist is like, “Look, he’s sorry.” They can’t witness his behavior over time, like you do at home. So you know more about this than they do, and you can trust your instincts about it. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this interview, Aliya shares what it looked like when the “expert” she trusted blurred lines in ways that felt increasingly difficult to make sense of. TRANSCRIPT: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF UNETHICAL AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Aliya. A so-called domestic abuse expert exploited her. Welcome, Aliya. Aliya: Thank you. Anne: Let’s start with how you met him. Aliya: I met him online through his network, taking classes and such. After I took a couple of classes with him, I started splitting time with him or co-counseling with him. Which was designed to help people discharge emotion. So if you have stuck trauma or PTSD experiences, you can get with a co-counselor and listen to each other, and hopefully discharge all that stuck trauma by crying, laughing, screaming or trembling. Anne: Were you paying for his services? Aliya: There was no payment. No, not at all. In fact, the attitude was, “I am doing you a favor. You’re the special chosen one. You get to help me. Everybody would love to be with me, but I chose you.” Anne: Oh, so he chose you to be his client? But you didn’t have to pay him and you were special, and so you also got to work for him. HE SAID, “I’M THE BEST CO-COUNSELOR HE HAS EVER HAD” Aliya: At first, I was co-counseling with him as though he were a counselor, but I was also taking turns as the “counselor”. Ultimately, I ended up moving to the state where he lives. There were supposed to be a lot of in-person events. Started helping him teach these classes and do administrative tasks and things like that, in addition to now co-counseling in person. And that’s where things got a little weird for me. Anne: So there’s a double relationship happening here where you’re working for him, but he’s also your counselor in this arrangement. Aliya: Exactly. Anne: In therapeutic circles, this is called a dual relationship. It’s unethical. It’s against the therapeutic ethics rules and is something people need to know before they search for affordable relationship counseling near me. But in his case, he’s not a therapist. This marriage therapy isn’t working. Can you talk about how like it first felt? Aliya: Sure, it felt great at first. Here’s this guy with all this knowledge and expertise, and he’s flattering me. He’s doing the love bombing thing, although we’re not in a romantic relationship. He is telling me how smart I am, and how inspiring it is to know me and all those kind of things. I’m just wonderful and can do no wrong. And I’m the best co-counselor he has ever had and all that. He would reach out and touch my hair and tell me how great my hair looks, and say, “Any excuse to come over and see you.” When he would come over to work on administrative stuff. So there were some double messages. “My life is so much better now that you’re in it,” things like that. HE STARTED CROSSING MORE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES Aliya: It felt very personal. He was constantly flattering me and complimenting me. A male friend had to point this out to me. “When was the last time I reached out and casually touched a man’s hair? Never.” And if I did that to him. He would’ve been offended, because now I crossed a boundary. But it was okay for him to do that to me. And then it got really hairy for me, because we started cuddling. We were on the couch together a lot and I was soaking up all this affection and warmth, and that worked on me emotionally. Anne: I am so, so sorry. He’s the expert, preying on vulnerable women. To hear that he’s cuddling people, that he’s doing pseudo professional coaching slash therapy. It sounds like a mess. I am so sorry. This is definitely affordable relationship counseling near me gone wrong. There were lots of signs of an abusive therapist in this situation. Aliya: When things took a turn, it was subtle at first. He used a few subtle put downs, and then not show up on time or cancel. Anne: Just for our listeners, so that they can hear what maybe a subtle put down might sound like, can you think of any examples? Aliya: The first one that came to mind, we served on a committee with one other person. She was on Zoom, and we were here in my house. and I said, “I’m getting milk to put in my tea.” I used Muscle Milk. He gave this disgusted look and went. “Well, is it even milk?” Just things like that. Why are you sitting over there instead of over here with us? I mean, things of no consequence whatsoever. But he felt the need to say something. I COULD FEEL THE SHIFT IN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Aliya: One time when I said something to him, he got very distracted and started looking at his phone and doing all kinds of things that typically abusive men would do. That he had never done before. So I could feel it shifting a little bit at that point. I was still co-counseling with him, and we co-counselled just about every single Friday. I helped him teach classes, helped him do his calendar and plan for the future, and maybe do a retreat. There was supposed to be a retreat, twice a year. I think there was one retreat in two years. So none of it was really panning out. There was not a single in-person event for two years. That was the administrative work. But during sessions, we would typically take 45 minutes each and take turns talking. And there’s a no advice rule, so you don’t give anybody any advice. But he would encourage me to get in touch with the pain, trauma and fear. And it could get pretty intense at times. I felt like he was getting bored with me. This affordable relationship counseling near me wasn’t feeling good. EVERYONE IN HIS ORGANIZATION IS VOLUNTEER Anne: How soon did you see that his actions and his words didn’t match? Aliya: He maintained his facade for maybe five or six months. And then it was, “Oh, I’m busy. Oh, I’m going to be late. Oh, I have to cancel, et cetera.” There was a time when the other person on this administrative committee with me, we were meeting every week supposedly. But he canceled at least half the time. And she said, “Why don’t we just meet once a month? Why don’t we schedule it differently?” And he got angry about that. He wanted us to be available every single Tuesday. In case he felt like showing up. Anne: So when he starts to be like, maybe you should get another co-counselor. So you would start paying this new co-counselor, or is everything in his organization volunteer and nobody pays anybody anything? Aliya: It’s all volunteer. It’s peer counseling. You’re doing it together. Everybody’s supposed to be equal. And no power hierarchy, although that’s a false premise. Because he’s somewhat of a well-known guru, and lots of women look up to him. He said he wanted a different co-counselor. Like he was done with me. He was gonna look for somebody else. But he didn’t actually address that properly. In fact, we did not stop co-

Are you seeing things in your marriage or a relationship that feel a little intense or puzzling…and you’re not sure if they’re normal or actually signs of a toxic relationship? If so, it’s important to pause and look at the pieces of the puzzle together to see what they might be telling you. To discover if you’re in a toxic relationship take our free emotional abuse test. Here are five things that might seem “normal,” but aren’t: SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP THAT ARE EASY TO MISS 1. HE WANTS TO MOVE THE RELATIONSHIP FORWARD QUICKLY When you’re in a relationship with someone who seemingly shares and cares about your values and interests, it’s easy to be swept up by the intensity of it all. Especially if the relationship seems to happen at the “right” time, and things move forward quickly. But this level of intensity and pace doesn’t give you time to slow down and really think about why you seem so compatible. 2. HE WANTS CONSTANT ACCESS TO YOU, BUT HE’S CLOSED OFF It might seem caring for your husband to be curious about your life and daily activities. But if he’s constantly calling or texting, and questioning you about your whereabouts and who you’re with, while withholding those same details about his life from you, you’re not in a reciprocal relationship. His “curiosity” or suspicion, is most likely stemming from his own toxic patterns of behavior. 3. HIS MOODS SHIFT SUDDENLY AND YOU DON’T KNOW WHY Think about it…in healthy relationships, partners are usually aware of the reasons why one partner isn’t in a good mood. They typically communicate about bad days at work or when they’re not feeling well. But in toxic relationships, that level of trust and communication often isn’t there, because one partner doesn’t want it to be. Everything’s fine, until it’s not, and then, it suddenly is again… And you’re left trying to figure out what changed. 4. HE‘S UPSET OVER SMALL THINGS Things that don’t seem like a big deal, suddenly are signs of a toxic relationship. For example, you miss a turn on the way to his best friend’s birthday party… and suddenly it’s not about directions anymore. He’s accusing you of being disrespectful, or doing it on purpose because you don’t want to go. Or you might simply ask him to help with the groceries, and suddenly he’s angry because, “you don’t respect his time and all the things he has to do.” 5. HE’S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON IN PUBLIC Around friends, he’s calm, kind, helpful, fun-loving, and completely attentive. In counseling, he appears thoughtful, and sincere about working on the relationship. He says all the right things. He wants to understand. But when you’re alone again, his warmth and willingness to do the work or even understand the issues disappears. And now you’re left dealing with that and the isolation that comes from knowing that everyone on the outside sees him as a “great guy.” If you relate and you need support, we’re always online to help you. Go to btr.org/group/ to see my daily support group schedule. TRANSCRIPT: EARLY SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND Anne:  I did an interview with a member of our community. We’re going to call her Iris, She talked about how his toxic patterns showed up in her marriage and what happened when she started using the strategies she learned in my workshop. Here’s that interview. Welcome, Iris.  Iris: Thank you. Glad to be here. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning of your story. Can you talk about how you felt when you first met your husband? Iris: He was very charming, and he seemed extremely sincere. Now I understand that he was love bombing me and was trying to make things go fast. It was very intense. And he preyed upon me at a time when I was really ready to get married and have kids. Everybody was getting married and having kids. So he went right for what was the most vulnerable part of me. And we met through a young adult single thing in our group. He proceeded to be very attentive. Anne: When you say young adult, single thing, that sounds a little bit like my faith. What’s your faith background? Iris: it’s the Catholic church. It’s actually Theology on Tap, which is at a brew pub, and you can buy a drink and mingle. And then they have a speaker. Anne: Kind of Matt Fraddish. Iris: Yes. Anne: I actually know Matt Fradd in real life. Iris: And I don’t go to the Catholic church anymore. But that was a huge part of our marriage and, we were really in a circle of pretty devout people. Which also I think contributed to my willingness to submit to him. Anne: When you say submit, can you talk about that a little bit more? EARLY CONTROL DISGUISED AS CARE AND SHARED VALUES Iris: Hindsight, there were red flags before we married. There were early signs of coercive control. It dates me, but cell phones weren’t the norm yet. And he bought me a cell phone so he could reach me more easily. He was pretty volatile. He asked me to marry him within a month or two and I deferred and we dated longer, but he was just intense. Then he would be very sorry. He would cold shoulder me at points. He’d be angry for things that were weird, wasn’t very flexible. Now I know these were signs of a toxic relationship. We went through nine months of marriage prep. So many Christian circles focus on the idea that the man is the head. I saw that in my parent’s marriage too. My dad made all the decisions. My mom was independent in some ways, but she still did what he wanted. I think I expected marriage to look like that. The husband leads and the wife follows. Even though I was independent, had a master’s degree, was over 30, and had traveled, I still lived in a huge Christian community where that model of marriage was everywhere. NOT RECOGNIZING SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: And you just mentioned nobody actually says that, but they actually do say that, it might not be in so many words. It might not be so directly, but they like actually say it. And if you call ’em out and say, “Hey, you said this.” They usually deny it. “Of course, I didn’t say that.” And you’re like, “What? You did.” That’s the part that’s really confusing. The therapists come in or the clergy comes in, or the friends and family, and they gaslight you too. It’s like, “You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that.” Especially when they find out what he is really like, and you’re like, “What?” “You told me this.” “Well, I never did.” And they for sure did. It’s almost like no matter what you do, you can’t win. There are friends of mine and maybe friends of yours too, who are amazing and they’re like, “Oh my word, I said the wrong thing.” That is so validating. I feel like when I meet people like that, it’s easy to be like, “It’s okay did the ‘wrong thing’ too. I was doing the best I could and I didn’t know that he was abusive. And I didn’t know what was happening, and didn’t recognize signs of a toxic relationship. So I can’t blame you either.” But, for the other people who continue to not believe us and deny that they said or did certain things. ‘That’s harder. Cause it becomes this almost group of unhealthy people that you’re dealing with, rather than just the one unhealthy person. Iris: Right. SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP: THE SUDDEN SWITCH AFTER MARRIAGE Anne: Did you end up going to couple therapy? Iris: In the Catholic Church you do Pre-Cana, which is pre-marriage counseling, and they saw some things that were concerning. He was very intent that he could change things. They would categorize it like how we were different. I think she said to me, “Life might always be kind of hard for him.” ‘Cause that’s what she was seeing.. He works very hard, so he seems very sincere. And he met with the man in the couple we met with. And read books and was very sincere. They said to us, “Oh, we’ve never seen somebody work so hard to try to improve themselves so that they’re ready for a marriage.” He impressed them, and I remember feeling exhausted by that point. And it was a mask. I now know that these were signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: Like you shouldn’t have to work that hard. to be normal. They are hard workers, because it would be very hard to pretend all the time. Iris: Right, and that’s how he lives. He has a mask all the time. We had this huge Catholic wedding, like an hour and 20 minute long mass. And it was that night the switch flipped. And he was angry. He cold shouldered me. We’d waited till our wedding night, and he said things that were incredibly humiliating. SEEING THE SAME SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP IN OTHER WOMEN’S STORIES Iris: Then the next morning he would hardly talk to me. And we left the beautiful hotel. We were to go to a morning brunch at my parents, with guests who were from outta town and our families. And he was furious because people had decorated our car. And he had to stop at a car wash to rinse everything off before we even got to the wedding brunch. Anne: I used this story in my book. Iris: You did? Anne: Yes, this story. Someone else had the same story. Iris: Isn’t that amazing? Like how these Chucks do the same thing to us and have all the same signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: ‘ Like Twilight Zone. Cause you never gave me that story. Iris: isn’t that amazing? I feel like that in group a lot. I’m like, “Oh, that happened to me.” Anne: BTR has been like me trying to fit all the pieces together. And as I’ve tried to fit all the pieces together, things became very clear. And I’ve become very good at seeing in the dark. So this piece of the puzzle I was trying to get it to fit. Like why did he do that? I’ve never met you before, but I spent a lot of time piecing just this piece. With the other pieces that I had of other people