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Isaac Getz is a business philosopher and professor at ESCP Business School, and the co-author, with Brian Carney, of Freedom, Inc., the book that gave us the idea of the liberated company and sparked a movement that included 500 organisations at its peak. We talk about why a liberated company is a philosophy rather than a blueprint, and what inner work this asks of a leader. We also cover why liberated companies tolerate tries rather than errors, why you uncover your values rather than invent them, and why none of this is laissez-faire. Resources: Freedom, Inc. book site "The rarest commodity is leadership without ego" TEDx talk by Leadership Without Ego book co-author and liberating leader Bob Davids   "Liberating leadership: How the initiative-freeing radical organizational form has been successfully adopted" seminal California Management Review article  "The liberated company theoretical concept: current issues and the intimidating complexity of organizational design" Journal of Organization Design article Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 55 with Frederic Laloux, author of Reinventing Organisations Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee on what the academic world is learning about decentralised organisations Ep. 12 with Karin Tenelius, co-founder of Tuff

Michael Bungay Stanier returns to Leadermorphosis, and this time we get right into the messy, human heart of work: our relationships. Michael is the author of the bestselling The Coaching Habit and, most recently, How to Work with (Almost) Anyone. He is on a mission to un-weird the soft stuff, to make better working relationships something we build on purpose rather than leave to chance. We talk about why the quality of your working relationships is so crucial for happiness and success, and about what Michael calls the Best Possible Relationship: one that is safe, vital and repairable. We get into how to upgrade our relationships, including how to have healthy conflict, as well as misunderstandings of psychological safety. Resources: Check out the 10th anniversary edition of Michael's book The Coaching Habit The Change Signal episode with Liane Davey about why we need more conflict, not less The Enemies Project YouTube channel we mentioned Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 68 - my first conversation with Michael about being more coaching Ep. 45 with Prof. Amy Edmondson Ep. 100 with my colleagues from Tuff about pebbles conversations and some of our other practices

Chorus was born out of the merger of three traditionally structured care organisations in 2017, but today its 1,000 employees work in 20+ self-managing, local teams. Strategic Coach Angela Williamson share this remarkable transformation story and how inner development – and not just structural development – has been key. Chorus began as an experiment asking the question: "What if the people closest to the work were trusted to make most decisions themselves?" Resources: Corporate Rebels' blog about Chorus and their organisational model Chorus website https://chorus.org.au/ Mia Mingus on the Nothing Never Happens podcast talking about reimagining accountability My blog about the tyranny of the inner boss Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 69 with Jos de Blok, founder of Buurtzorg Ep. 26 with the nurses at Buurtzorg Ep. 96 with Xavier Costa about love in self-managing organisations Ep. 67 with Andy Brogan and Helen Sanderson about Confirmation Practices Ep. 85 with Bernadette Wesley about Deliberately Developmental Organisations

If you ask employees at EPPO who the CEO is, they will answer: there is no CEO! In this episode, Rodrigo Ventre shares the story of transforming his father's company into a self-managing organisation. We talk about his lifelong passion for human development and the increasingly radical experiments he has encouraged in the domains of business, culture, and governance. It was not an easy journey, but today EPPO is celebrated in Brazil for its innovative organisational model and being an inspiring place to work. This episode is a warts-and-all story including insights from a systems level, but also from Rodrigo as a father and a human being. Resources: The EPPO case study from INSEAD More about Target Teal in Brazil (where you can also learn more about Organic Organization or O2) Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 70 with Ravi Resck on the future of work movement in Brazil Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee on what the academic world is learning about decentralised organisations Ep. 55 with Frederic Laloux, author of Reinventing Organisations

Natacha is the co-founder of Freche Freunde, a leading children's healthy snacks brand. She shares insights from the two-year transformation journey she led at the 80-person company – what she says were the hardest two years of her life. Through experiments with Holacracy and self-management, the biggest challenge turned out to be her own personal development. In this honest and beautiful story, Natacha shares the ups and downs of the process and what her next adventures will be. Resources: Natacha's conversation with friend of the pod Manuel Küblböck Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 49 with Peter Koenig about Source Ep. 94 with SINA, Uganda

Abhijith HK and Vidhya Abhijith are co-founders of Codewave, a digital innovation company in India with over 200 employees and zero hierarchy. In this episode, we explore how they built a self-managing organisation from intuition, their peer-based feedback system called Peerly, and how they moved from "ruinous empathy" to radical candor. We also discuss scaling through "Fractas" (mini startups within the company), staying bootstrapped to protect culture, and the personal growth required of founders on this journey. Resources: Link to Codewave's handbook Corporate Rebels' blog about Codewave Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee

For episode 100, Lisa talks with her colleagues Eva Vilella, Trevor Hudson, and Kajsa Thelander Sadio from Tuff Leadership Training about what it's really like to work inside a self-managing organisation. They explore how working at Tuff has transformed each of them, their culture of continuous development with practices like "pebbles" and "mooseheads," and the genuine challenges alongside the beauty – from coordination difficulties to the loneliness of autonomy. A rare inside look at self-management with all its complexity, humor, and humanity. Resources: Moose Heads on the Table – book by Lisa and Karin from Tuff Lisa's blog, 'The tyranny of the inner boss' Trevor's blog about relationship conversations at work Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 12 with Karin Tenelius, co-founder of Tuff Ep. 85 with Bernadette Wesley on Deliberately Developmental Organisations

If we want to practise alternatives to hierarchy, what needs to be in place? Perttu has twenty years' experience as an organisational consultant and I've been really enjoying his research papers on Radically Decentralised Organisations. We talk about the four things needed for a Radically Decentralised Organisation to be sustainable, leaderless leadership, group dynamics we need to be aware of, and some interesting case studies in Finland, particularly in the public sector. Resources: Perttu's paper, "Leaderless Leadership in Radically Decentralised Organisations" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/380008457_Leaderless_leadership_in_radically_decentralized_organizations Perttu's website: https://perttusalovaara.com/en/ Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan Ep. 78 with Sofia and Luís from Mindera Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee

Handing the baton over to someone else can be risky, especially when it's your company you're handing over. Timea Kristof shares her research on six key factors necessary for a successful succession process to happen, and one of the most important factors might surprise you. It's love. Timea shares insights from her research, including examples of organisations she interviewed such as a family business with three generations of failed successions, as well as her own lived experience of handovers. We also discuss Peter Koenig's Source Work and how this is a helpful lens when thinking about succession. And we also share some personal learning moments as people pleasers in recovery! Resources: Timea's website and research https://www.gekko.consulting/founder-succession-research/ The webinar recording of Timea presenting her research for ConsciousU Read more about Source Work: Tom Nixon's book Work with Source A Little Red Book About Source by Stefan Merckelbach Nadja Taranczewski's programme, CU Source: https://www.conscious-u.com/cusource/ Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 49 with Peter Koenig about Source Ep. 5 with Tom Nixon

Allan Rhodes is Chief People Officer at teal-inspired insurance broker Konsileo. He shares what he's learned over the last three years about helping to design a self-managing organisation, including how to onboard people into a totally new way of working. We also talk about his favourite metaphor of organisational gardening. We can be inspired by other gardens and gardeners, but what will grow best in our unique soil and climate? Allan has dual nationality as a Mexican Englishman so he shares observations on the two cultures having experienced communities exploring progressive ways of organising in both Latin America and the UK. Resources: Konsileo's website: https://konsileo.com/ Allan's blogs about Organisational Gardening Latin American networks and organisations promoting self-management: Co-crealia: https://www.linkedin.com/company/cocrealia/  Pancho Mora's podcast, Autogestión: https://panchomora.life/  Organizaciones Brillantes: https://www.organizacionesbrillantes.com/el-movimiento  Brave Job: https://www.brave-job.com/home/ CultureSee: https://www.culturesee.com/  Outiopía: https://ouitopia.team/en/  Luis Salas - Polymath - Reinventando a tu Organización (newsletter): https://www.linkedin.com/in/luis-salas-0b7b7135/  Encuentro Internacional Teal: https://www.congresointernacionalteal.com/  Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 49 with Peter Koenig about Source Ep. 5 with Tom Nixon Ep. 82 with Mayden, another UK self-managing company Ep. 52 with Jorge Silva from 10Pines, Argentina Ep. 96 with Xavier Costa about the movement in Spain Ep. 33 with Margaret Wheatley

Why does Spain appear to be a hotbed for progressive organisations lately? Xavier Costa shares three hypotheses: the implementation of the NER self-management approach in over 100 companies, a rich history of cooperatives, and a culture of innovation in the boundaries of Spain. We also talk about lessons learned from Xavier's experience of transforming companies, both with consultancy Full Circle Team, and investment fund Krisos, which buys and transforms companies. How do you rebalance salaries? How do you support former managers? And what is the 'healing' and personal transformation journey needed for self-organisation to work? Resources: Full Circle Team website: https://www.fullcircleteam.es/ Krisos website: https://krisos.eu/ A Corporate Rebels blog about Indaero's 'no managers' experiment My blog from a few years ago about the NER approach My colleague Karin Tenelius' blog where she also interviewed Xavier about the new ways of working movement in Spain Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 53 Dunia Reverter and Jabi Salcedo talk about the NER / K2K approach Ep. 60 Anna Thomson and David Baksh talk about La Fageda

The way groups are working together is not working. But introducing new structures alone is not enough. Tamila and Simon talk to me about how we need to develop our ways of seeing, being and working together if we want to act in the highest possible alignment with our vision. A key part of this is using the lens of Power, Belonging and Justice (PBJ) and strengthening our muscle in Conflict Resilience. Strap in for some powerful wisdom, giggles and deep learning. Harmonize is a worker-owned cooperative that helps groups work together through Comprehensive Organizational Development and Analysis (CODA™). Tamila and Simon are the co-founders of Harmonize. Resources: Harmonize's website Harmonize's courses Simon's blog series on the Common Mistakes in Self-Management And his article 'Autopsy of a Failed Holacracy' Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 19 with Simon Mont back in 2018 Ep. 33 with Margaret Wheatley Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan

SINA (Social Innovation Academy) is a network of social enterprise incubators in Uganda and neighbouring countries with a mission of supporting marginalised young people to create their own solutions to social problems in their communities.There are currently more than 10 SINA communities which have catalysed 70+ social enterprises and more than 500 jobs. The goal is to create a global movement of 1,000 SINAs and 100,000 social enterprises by 2035. Etienne Salborn, founder, and Tonny Wamboga, Operations Lead, talk to me about SINA's model in which self-organisation plays a central role. How do scholars take on key roles? What is the 'confusion stage'? What are common misconceptions of self-organisation? What are the specific cultural challenges of learning self-organisation in Uganda? We talk about these questions and more in our conversation. Resources: SINA's website: https://www.socialinnovationacademy.org/ More about the SINA framework A case study about SINA (non-academic) An academic master thesis on the agency aspect of scholars in SINA Masters of Social Change, a SINA documentary about refugee activists and social entrepreneurs Etienne on the Out of the Clouds podcast talking about the SINA founding story and the model

In this episode we talk all about psychological safety – the misconceptions, what it actually means in practice, what we can learn about it through an equity lens, and how we can design organisational structures that support it (like decision-making protocols). We also talk about how August does onboarding and creates an adult learning environment through feedback, peer reviews and the role of a 'Development Advocate', plus how they relate to the 'new ways of working' movement right now. Tirzah and Mike are teammates at August Public Inc., an organisation and leadership development and change management firm. Tirzah leads August's Equity & Inclusion practice and Mike is a Founding Partner. Resources: Download the August white paper 'Looking at Psychological Safety Through an Equity Lens' Learn more about August and their other insights via their website Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 45 with Prof. Amy Edmondson Ep. 41 with Michael Y. Lee about the interpersonal risks research (safe spaces and interaction scripts) Michael Y. Lee's research paper 'Fostering Positive Relational Dynamics in Teams: The Power of Spaces and Interaction Scripts' (Academy of Management Journal, 2020) Book: 'Confronting our Freedom: Leading a Culture of Chosen Accountability and Belonging' by Peter Block and Peter Koestenbaum

Miki is the seed founder and Emma a founding member of the Nonviolent Global Liberation community (NGL), which runs entirely as a gift economy. They and NGL as a whole are knee-deep in visionary experimentation about what it would take to realign humanity with life through online and community living experiments. Even without bosses we can still struggle to embody new ways of being together because of our internalised systems of patriarchal conditioning and capitalist thinking. The capacity lens gives us a way to examine this and make more conscious choices together. As Miki puts it, "Everyone who gets into it falls in love with it, because it moves us from rigidity to flexibility, from predictability to emergence, from coercion to willingness, from judgement to tenderness. Who wouldn't want that?"  An incredibly valuable episode if you are wrestling with topics like fairness, how to distribute tasks and roles, leadership in a bossless environment, how to avoid burnout or how to deal with overwhelm in the face of huge societal challenges. Resources: Nonviolent Global Liberation website Miki and NGL's learning packet called 'Resource flow systems: from incentive to willingness'  Link to capacity lens course (access to video recordings only) Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan on the three shifts