Advertise on podcast: Content and Conversation: Organic Growth Insights from Siege Media

Bernard Huang returns to break down GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) and the big question: is GEO actually different from SEO, or just SEO evolving?   We talk about how AI Mode/AI Overviews are changing search behavior, why top-funnel traffic is getting squeezed, and what “good SEO is good GEO” really means in practice.   Show Notes: 00:00 – Welcome back & why GEO is everywhere 03:05 – Is GEO actually different from SEO? 07:10 – How AI agents think vs keyword-based SEO 12:45 – The traffic apocalypse & AI Mode becoming default 18:00 – Mentions vs backlinks in an LLM world 24:30 – What people are getting wrong about GEO 30:45 – Measuring success: impressions, citations & brand search 42:55 – The “long, long tail” and the future of content strategy   Show Links: Follow Bernard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernardjhuang/   Visit Clearscope: https://www.clearscope.io/   Follow Ross on X: https://x.com/RossHudgens     Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross welcomes Gaetano DiNardi, growth advisor and B2B SaaS strategist, to unpack the brutal questions CEOs are suddenly firing at their SEO teams in the AI era: traffic is flat or down, attribution is messy, LLM dashboards look scary, and everyone wants to know if SEO is still “working.”   They dig into why traffic is no longer the primary health metric, how AI Overviews and LLMs are breaking the old “rank → CTR → traffic → leads → revenue” equation, and why CMOs should obsess less over sessions and more over demo requests, pipeline, deal size, and overall organic channel performance.   Gaetano shares how he’s reframing SEO for mid-market B2B SaaS: shifting from decaying top-of-funnel content to bottom-of-funnel “money pages,” optimizing for LLM citations and “money prompts,” and using concepts like “crash-the-party” comparison pages to win high-intent demand across both Google and AI platforms.   They also break down why LLM prompt tracking is the new rank tracking (with all the same pitfalls), how AI platform traffic actually converts compared to Google, what “dark funnel SEO” looks like in practice, and why Gaetano thinks classic TOFU SEO might effectively go to zero while brand, data studies, and opinionated thought leadership pick up the slack.   Show Notes 0:08 – Gaetano returns & why last year’s SEO playbook no longer works 1:17 – CEOs’ top question: “Traffic is down… is SEO still working?” 2:17 – Why B2B SaaS is feeling the decline hardest 3:16 – The old rank → CTR → traffic → revenue model is broken 5:46 – Top-of-funnel content is collapsing (and why TOFU is “dead-ish”) 6:13 – The shift to bottom-funnel: BOFU keywords, low volume, high intent 7:11 – Flat traffic + rising revenue: the new SEO success story 8:01 – What LLMs cite: comparisons, “best X” lists, crash-the-party pages 8:38 – Crash-the-party SEO explained in 15 seconds 13:21 – LLM prompt dashboards are misleading your executives 15:53 – Branded vs. non-branded LLM prompts: why you MUST separate them 18:06 – Build a tight list of “money prompts,” not 500 random ones 20:06 – Why AI platforms show higher conversion rates than Google 22:10 – Dark-funnel behavior: LLM → Google → homepage → convert 24:08 – Google leads have FAR larger deal sizes than AI leads 27:35 – SEO attribution is officially “cooked” in the AI era 29:27 – Traffic flat, pipeline up 3×: examples from real clients 31:25 – Use top-10 stability to prove AI Overviews stole your clicks 34:47 – Search is becoming BOFU-first — what that means 35:34 – LLM citations as the new leading indicator for SEO 39:00 – Exploding topics = more LLM citations due to low consensus 41:22 – Engagement validates information gain (why POV content wins) 47:20 – What happens to TOFU SEO? (Short answer: it shrinks massively) 48:49 – Why TOFU may survive only for authority, clustering, and links     Gaetano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/officialg/   Tough Questions CEOs Are Asking About AI SEO: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T_IQXUCXBQtFcLekVFwqv23y8ViuRFJKBIRtn4wcImQ/edit?usp=sharing   Does traffic from AI platforms convert “better” than Google search traffic?: https://marketingadvice.substack.com/p/869517ce-4629-429f-addd-518d9342cdff   CMOs are frantically asking “what’s our Reddit strategy?: https://marketingadvice.substack.com/p/cmos-are-frantically-asking-whats   LLM prompt tracking is the new rank tracking: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/officialg_llm-prompt-monitoring-is-quickly-becoming-activity-737 7069814458097664-KLyi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAj OemoBsmGgXOOcFpcwGVG1B7IlDCvf8io Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross sits down with Josh Spilker, Content Marketing & SEO Lead at AirOps, to unpack the rise of the content engineer — what it means, why it matters, and how it’s reshaping SEO and content operations. They dive into Ryan Law’s critique, hybrid-AI workflows, org-chart ownership, automation opportunities, and why Josh believes AI doesn’t kill content — it rewires strategy. Plus: the “context librarian” concept, content refresh automation, spotting slipping queries, using multiple models together, and avoiding low-quality AI traps. Show Notes: 0:08 – What is a “content engineer” and why the role is emerging 1:17 – How content engineering evolved from early UX concepts 2:13 – Who fits best in this role: writers, SEOs, or automation pros? 3:39 – Ryan Law’s critique: “I wouldn’t hire a content engineer” 4:51 – Internal linking as a powerful semi-automated workflow 5:56 – From manual outlines to AI-assisted research and briefs 6:48 – Balancing AI workflows and human-led quality control 7:24 – Why “Director of Automation” might better describe the role 8:35 – Who should lead content automation inside organizations 9:15 – AI text generation vs. hybrid workflows: what’s really working 10:38 – The limits of pure AI content and why oversight matters 11:19 – How AirOps customers use hybrid models for scale 12:01 – Using multiple models (ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity) together 13:02 – The “7% of AI pages” debate and Patrick Stox’s counter-data 14:19 – How editorial standards and compliance shape AI adoption 15:23 – “AI doesn’t kill content — it rewires strategy” 16:15 – Refresh workflows: detecting pages and queries that slip 17:18 – Where content engineers fit in the org chart today 18:16 – The rise of the “context librarian” for brand knowledge bases 19:19 – Combining brand governance with AI-driven workflows 20:21 – How automation can unify voice and style across teams 21:32 – Why AI helps close the creative gap faster, not replace writers 22:29 – Teaching non-engineers to think like product builders 23:19 – Breaking down creative processes into repeatable systems 24:07 – Turning everyday editorial routines into structured workflows 25:08 – Automating meeting summaries and reporting emails 26:12 – Using AI to surface key quotes and podcast clip highlights 27:17 – “Transformation content”: repurposing, summarizing, clipping 28:13 – AirOps’ content strategy: optimization, refresh, iteration 29:04 – Refresh workflows tied to GSC data and ranking drops 30:33 – Risks of shallow “freshness updates” and engagement metrics 31:47 – How informed SEOs make the best use of AirOps workflows 32:07 – Why fundamentals matter before scaling with AI tools 33:02 – Barry Bonds analogy: AI only helps pros with solid foundations 34:15 – Automating backlink outreach with contextual relevance 35:34 – Why personalization still wins over high-volume outreach 36:17 – The balance between automation and editorial craft 37:11 – Where to find Josh’s webinars, reports, and AirOps resources Josh Spilker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshspilker AirOps: https://www.airops.com AirOps Webinars: https://www.airops.com/categories/events Ahrefs Post (Ryan Law): https://ahrefs.com/blog/i-wouldnt-hire-a-content-engineer Patrick Stox Response: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/patrickstox_im-sure-youre-all-seeing-the-study-saying-activity-7385017156213788672-5srr Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Caroline Gilbert — Director of Content & Editorial at Angi — joins Ross Hudgens to explore how one of the largest home-services brands is using AI to scale, transform, and optimize content operations. They discuss how Caroline’s team doubled Angi’s content library to 12,000+ articles, how AI helps maintain top-funnel visibility amid shifting search behaviors, and the nuanced balance between human expertise and generative automation. Caroline breaks down the three pillars of Angi’s AI framework — generation, transformation, and operations — and how they’ve automated everything from brief creation to CMS ingestion while keeping a strong editorial voice. Plus: lessons learned from early AI missteps, real examples of disclosure testing, and how AI is reshaping both content creation and search behavior itself. Show Notes 0:08 – From cost guides to “everything home”: expanding Angi’s library 1:00 – Moving up-funnel: education, troubleshooting, light DIY, and when to hire 2:14 – Top-funnel ROI drops as AI overviews change search behavior 2:56 – Why Angi adopts gen-AI: maintain helpful content without heavy human lift 3:27 – Staying visible where intent is early but brand value matters 4:45 – Content becomes commodity: deciding where humans add unique value 5:55 – Evergreen “how-to” steps vs. human nuance (risks, gotchas, pro POV) 7:18 – How AI is used: full refreshes, component injections, data-driven sizing 9:01 – The real trade-off: human time vs. technology time 9:26 – Scale context: 5k → 12k pages (growth mostly human-led) 9:41 – Three pillars: generation, transformation, operations 10:38 – Ops wins: briefs, automated edits/QA, CMS ingestion, minutes → hours 12:21 – Designers focus on UX polish when ingestion is 98% done 12:58 – Where AI struggled: risky DIY (HVAC/roofing), brand POV, nuance 15:02 – Licensing content is messy (state/county rules): tighter human review 17:19 – Design: generate/transform/streamline + “vibe coding” prototypes 20:18 – Pilot first: small cohorts, guardrails, measure engagement/conversions 21:22 – Disclosure tests: placement/tone matter; users split ~50/50 on trust 25:53 – “Tools, time, or talent”: when to push pro hire messaging 27:39 – Differentiators: pro interviews + Angi’s original homeowner cost data 28:07 – AI helps editors analyze like analysts; humans shape the story 29:19 – Looking ahead: AI shifting search from answers to utilities/experiences Show Links Caroline Gilbert on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-gilbert-41463518/ Angi: https://www.angi.com/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Matt Bowers — SEO and LLM consultant, formerly of Zapier and Zillow — joins Ross Hudgens for a deep dive into how AI is transforming programmatic SEO. They explore what’s working and what’s not for large-scale, AI-assisted content strategies — from full-AI “use-case” pages to hybrid human workflows. Matt breaks down examples of successful AI programmatic sites, the pitfalls of duplicate content, and the emerging “information gain” paradigm shaping rankings post-2024. They also discuss the limits of AI in UX-driven verticals, personalization opportunities, long-tail visibility in LLMs like ChatGPT, and how data-driven scaling can still give human SEOs a competitive edge. Plus: the rise and fall of Greg.app, the future of personalization, Zillow’s “Project Boggle,” and practical tools like Builder.io, Strapi, and AirOps that power modern programmatic builds. Show Notes 0:08 – Matt returns for round two: programmatic SEO meets AI 1:00 – Are “pure AI” sites actually winning? What’s working and what’s not 2:06 – Inside a million-visit-per-month AI programmatic play 3:15 – Structuring AI content around real use cases, not blog posts 4:22 – Why old GPT-3.5 copy can still rank — and the “don’t mess with success” mantra 5:03 – Dwell time as a differentiator: the “product as content” advantage 6:13 – How AI copy helps with indexing and duplicate-content differentiation 7:17 – Why Google probably isn’t detecting AI directly and what it does instead 8:11 – The “high-DR arbitrage” era of AI content — and why it’s fading 10:11 – Why most public AI case studies stay anonymous 11:16 – Case study: Greg.app — AI-generated plant care pages done right 12:03 – How prompt engineering + UX elevate AI content 13:13 – Prompting each paragraph individually vs. one giant prompt 15:21 – Two winning models: product-driven and UX-driven AI programmatic 16:15 – Why blog-style AI content still struggles and the “pizza” metaphor 20:05 – Greg.app’s traffic drop: lessons from a 75% decline 22:21 – AI’s scalability advantage — and its ROI trade-offs 25:24 – Zillow’s data advantage: proprietary enrichment and GIS precision 26:16 – When AI enables pages that “shouldn’t exist” by human economics 27:21 – Scaling what can’t be scaled: the real AI unlock 28:16 – Competing in local long-tail SERPs with AI vs. humans 28:31 – Traits of losing players: low information gain, weak differentiation 29:20 – Why “information gain” may be the new ranking factor 30:06 – Proprietary data as the ultimate SEO differentiator 31:00 – How real estate UX converged — and why speed and personalization win 33:00 – When non-AI programmatic still wins: data-only, high-usability pages 35:07 – Where AI doesn’t belong: when usability is more important than copy 35:37 – Personalization and the future of AI-driven recommendations 37:07 – The Perplexity vision: a world run by AI agents and voice search 39:06 – What AI agents mean for SEO and monetization 40:38 – Long-tail demand from LLMs and how Zapier used programmatic pages 42:29 – How LLMs discover your use cases and why it matters 43:20 – Using internal data to fuel new programmatic ideas Project Boggle 46:09 – Generating new landing pages from user search inputs 47:52 – Internal search data as a goldmine for programmatic expansion 48:30 – Tools of the trade: AirOps, Builder.io, Strapi, and hybrid stacks 49:43 – Why programmatic SEO still needs human PMs and engineers 50:08 – Where to find Matt online Show Links Matt Bowers on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mpbow/ Matt’s Website: https://mattb.rs/ Greg.app AI plant care example: https://greg.app/plant-care/monstera Strapi CMS: https://strapi.io/ AirOps: https://www.airops.com/ Builder.io: https://www.builder.io/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Nick LeRoy, Enterprise SEO Consultant and author of *SEO For Lunch*, joins Ross Hudgens to debate a hot topic in SEO right now — the rise of “Best X” listicles and the emergence of what Nick calls **LLM PBNs**. They unpack the ethics, brand risk, and strategic value of publishing your own “best” lists to capture AI-era visibility and how tactics once considered gray hat are being re-examined in the age of ChatGPT and AI Overviews. If you’ve ever wondered whether to publish your own “Best X” article (or what happens when you do), this episode dives deep into the data, the risk, and the real takeaways for modern SEO strategy. **Plus:** brand perception vs. performance marketing, AI training data, the ethics of self-ranking, and why most “shortcuts” aren’t worth it in 2025. Show Notes 0:08 – Why Nick wrote his post on LLM PBNs and “Best X” articles 1:00 – Defining the three types of listicles: self-hosted, third-party, and PBNs 3:23 – Why AI and search are blurring ethical lines for content manipulation 5:00 – The real risk: brand perception and user trust over rankings 8:01 – Do “Best X” articles actually drive qualified leads? 10:09 – Why these listicles still work tactically in B2B SEO 12:12 – How to do it right: objectivity, transparency, and editorial value 14:01 – The importance of segmenting by use case (“best for enterprise,” etc.) 16:15 – Outbound links, nofollow abuse, and why honesty still wins 17:36 – When to avoid listicles entirely (and why product quality matters most) 20:24 – LLM PBNs vs. traditional PBNs — and why they’re not worth it 23:22 – Affiliate influence and how AI learns from “best of” lists 25:33 – Why bad products can’t rank long term (no matter the tactics) 27:26 – Testing ethically: what Nick learned from black-hat experiments 30:48 – The SMB risk: how FOMO and “easy buttons” hurt small businesses 33:19 – Better investments for local brands than AI visibility schemes 35:20 – Why starting from scratch is tougher than ever in SEO 37:07 – The future of niche review sites like Zyppy and why they matter 38:30 – Final takeaway: research deeply and focus on long-term trust Show Links Nick LeRoy on LinkedIn: [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickleroy/] SEO For Lunch Newsletter: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/] Nick’s post on LLM PBNs: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/p/llm-pbns] Zyppy (by Cyrus Shepard): [https://zyppy.com/] Siege Media Enterprise SEO Consulting: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/enterprise-seo-consultants] Siege Media Best Fintech Marketing Agencies: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/best-fintech-marketing-agencies] Mentimeter Kahoot Alternatives Example: [https://www.mentimeter.com/blog/education/kahoot-alternatives] Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Shannon Minkel, Senior Director of Product SEO at Siege Media, joins Ross Hudgens to unpack one of the biggest questions in search right now: did Google just kill rank tracking beyond page two? They explore what this shift means for SEOs—whether it’s a sign to finally focus on input metrics, how declining referral traffic from ChatGPT impacts strategy, and what Similarweb and Siege Media’s own research reveal about changing engagement rates. From GA4 benchmarks to the future of AI search, this episode breaks down the data, the rumors, and the real-world implications for anyone navigating SEO in 2025. Plus: input metrics, lagging indicators, Similarweb’s ChatGPT data, and why Google’s rumored “AI mode” rollout could redefine how we measure success. 0:08 – Why Google’s rank tracking changes matter now 1:14 – Is rank tracking beyond page two dead? 2:36 – The rise of input metrics and controllable KPIs 4:09 – ChatGPT referral traffic declines across Siege, Ahrefs & Profound 6:12 – Similarweb’s data on ChatGPT usage growth vs. declining engagement 8:04 – What lagging indicators like ChatGPT quality mean for SEOs 9:28 – Interpreting GA4 engagement rates and site health signals 11:05 – Google’s rumored AI mode rollout (and roll-back) 13:17 – The future of attribution in a generative search world 15:21 – How SEOs should adapt reporting for execs in 2025 17:43 – Why input metrics may replace old rank-tracking habits 20:05 – What Shannon is watching most closely in AI search Shannon Minkel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonminkel GA4 engagement rates → https://www.siegemedia.com/research/ga4-engagement-rates ChatGPT referral traffic study → https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/chatgpt-referral-traffic-data SEJ: https://searchengineland.com/google-search-rank-and-position-tracking-is-a-mess-right-now-461984 Similarweb on ChatGPT growth: https://x.com/Similarweb/status/1965726707832528974 SEMrush: https://www.semrush.com/blog/google-usage-after-chatgpt-adoption/ ChatGPT vs. Google study: https://chatgpt-vs-google.com/ Input Metrics for SEO newsletter: https://newsletter.seomba.com/p/input-metrics-for-seo Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Zach Chahalis, VP of SEO at Apartments.com, joins Ross Hudgens for a deep dive into the high-stakes world of real estate SEO—where listings change daily, pages balloon into the hundreds of thousands, and competition is cutthroat across every SERP. They explore how Zach’s team manages SEO at scale, including 75+ site migrations, advanced internal linking via entity modeling, and custom AI agents built to streamline content operations. From avoiding redirect chains to handling rental “orphan pages,” this episode is packed with hard-earned lessons for SEOs working at enterprise scale. Plus: duplicate content, the future of AI search in real estate, and why your site should never go through a migration before Black Friday. Show Notes 0:08 – Zach’s role at Apartments.com and SEO in high-competition markets 1:00 – Biggest pitfalls in site migrations: communication and redirect logic 2:00 – Why bad redirect chains are like sending mail to your old address 3:39 – What to expect from traffic drops post-migration 5:06 – The difference between redesigns, CMS moves, and full migrations 7:42 – How entity linking models boost internal linking and relevance 9:55 – The user and SEO value of cross-linking neighborhood/location pages 11:51 – How Zach’s team measures and improves internal page authority 13:17 – Their in-house SEO testing program and what they’ve learned 15:01 – When they ignore positive SEO test results to preserve UX 16:41 – Managing orphaned rental pages and lifecycle SEO logic 19:05 – What they show users when listings go offline 21:24 – When to 404 vs. redirect in real estate or e-commerce 23:37 – Competing in a duplicate content world: data + experience wins 25:56 – Using proprietary data (e.g., 3D tours) to differentiate listings 27:28 – Real estate’s slower exposure to AI Overviews 28:19 – AI as productivity booster: writing, research, and landlord tools 30:46 – How internal teams use AI to speed up editorial content creation 33:50 – Why real estate is less impacted by AI than other verticals 35:59 – Indexing the long tail: 250K+ neighborhoods, 40K city pages 37:55 – Agentic workflows: surfacing internal data to speed up content 40:58 – How AI flags Fair Housing violations before content goes live 42:48 – Building secure, proprietary pipelines for real estate data 44:03 – Where to find Zach online Show Links Zach Chahalis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zacharychahalis Zach’s website: https://www.zacharychahalis.com Hyperlocal Content from a National Lens deck: https://speakerdeck.com/zjchahalis/hyperlocal-content-from-a-national-lens Apartments.com: https://www.apartments.com/Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Tom Critchlow, EVP of Audience Growth at Raptive, joins Ross for a deep dive into how input metrics can transform SEO strategy—especially in an era of declining visibility and messy attribution from AI search engines. They explore how input metrics improve executive reporting, unlock budget, and build cross-functional alignment by shifting focus from vanity outcomes to controllable, operational activities. Tom shares insights from his time at Raptive, lessons from Amazon’s internal frameworks, and practical tips for teams to track quality, not just quantity. If you're navigating SEO in 2025, this episode is your playbook. Plus: scorecards, dashboards, quality benchmarks, and how input metrics can shape strategic storytelling at every level of an org. Show Notes 0:08 – Why “getting SEO done” starts with business communication 1:14 – Executive buy-in and the underrated power of input metrics 2:06 – What are controllable input metrics? Lessons from Amazon 3:24 – Why output-only reporting drives blind decision-making 5:06 – Building reports that pair input + output for alignment 7:01 – Input metrics: weekly/monthly rhythm vs quarterly output 9:15 – Goal-setting tension: input vs output metrics for teams 11:24 – Why SEOs need to “make their work legible” to leadership 12:30 – Input metrics as a path to getting more SEO budget 14:20 – The missing business case for many SEO initiatives 15:33 – Raptive case study: measuring behavior change over clicks 18:02 – Building input metrics from scratch: the 9-month reality 19:51 – Amazon’s evolving metrics: controllability over time 21:26 – Mapping input metrics to what actually drives success 22:33 – The danger of metric sprawl—and how to refocus 23:59 – Why some SEO work becomes “invisible” without input metrics 25:13 – Three metrics per person: a practical ceiling 26:51 – How input metrics support pipeline generation in B2B 28:35 – Communicating SEO value to non-executives via unit economics 30:06 – Stop yelling “fix it”—report what’s not getting done 31:22 – Translating editorial quality into spreadsheet metrics 33:06 – Red, yellow, green ≠ strategic clarity—track actual numbers 34:08 – Attribution is broken: input metrics matter more than ever 36:43 – Benchmarking input metrics against competitors 38:03 – Don’t just track AI visibility—track the work you can control 39:02 – Why input metrics aren’t neutral—and why that’s OK 41:01 – Planning cycles: why it takes 6 months to see input adoption 42:15 – Measuring “quality”: content scores, CSATs, and rubrics 44:25 – Why you must operationalize “quality” to get promoted 46:08 – Manual scoring systems and quality baselines 47:13 – Where to find Tom and what he’s working on next Show Links Tom Critchlow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomcritchlow Tom’s blog: http://tomcritchlow.com Input Metrics for SEO article: https://newsletter.seomba.com/p/input-metrics-for-seo Raptive: https://raptive.comSubscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross joins Will Critchlow of SearchPilot for a wide-ranging conversation on the evolving landscape of e-commerce SEO and content strategy in the AI era. They cover how e-commerce brands are adapting content for multimodal search, why digital PR is surging, what still works in a zero-click world, and how Siege’s homepage study reveals surprising traffic shifts from AI engines like ChatGPT and Google’s AI Overviews. Ross also shares lessons from working with Instacart, thoughts on EEAT, brand building in 2025, and how SEOs can think more like product teams to win long-term. Plus: goal-setting, basketball, and how to build your perfect calendar. Show Notes 0:08 – Introductions 1:00 – Ross on what e-commerce clients are asking for in 2025 2:12 – High-fidelity content and why it still drives SEO value 3:24 – The digital PR spike—and why it might not be right for every brand 4:17 – Rethinking link building: content that earns links without outreach 5:11 – The shift from link bait to real brand-building campaigns 6:34 – Why measuring content value is still messy 7:28 – Investing in analytics and attribution models that actually work 8:52 – Instacart case study: how it’s still winning in 2025 9:59 – Calculators as a defensible content type against AI overviews 11:15 – Homepage traffic is up 10%—what Siege’s study found 12:56 – Differences in B2B vs B2C AI traffic attribution 14:15 – How AI referrals may go dark: no referrer, just branded visits 15:40 – SearchPilot’s view: aggregating dark and disaggregated traffic sources 17:20 – How LM-driven browsing creates long tail referral lift 18:57 – AI is doing the searching: optimizing for “robot” queries 21:00 – Why retrieval-augmented generation (RAG) matters for e-commerce 22:44 – Digital PR’s role in influencing AI citation engines 23:51 – Siege’s brand mention study: impressions up, but who’s watching? 25:20 – Review volume = the next big SEO edge in e-commerce 26:04 – Instacart’s product reviews may be helping SEO more than you think 27:15 – Human authorship: should you expose expert bylines? 28:52 – Where author signals matter most 30:04 – Real-world reviews are the new long tail content strategy 31:09 – Who’s doing it well? 32:14 – Brand authority, SEO signals, and Siege’s convo with Dr. Pete 33:48 – Building a brand health dashboard (and what to track in 2025) 36:18 – Who owns content? SEO increasingly embedded in product teams 37:40 – Product SEO as a mindset, not just a technical checklist 39:24 – Optimizer mentality, health goals, and personal systems 40:11 – Ross’s “perfect calendar” and how it supports business goals 42:06 – Will on process goals vs outcome goals in business and life 43:44 – Can you be too optimized? Balancing mental health and iteration 45:07 – Long-term vision in a 3-week world 46:00 – Where to find Ross online and what Siege is working on next Show Links ‬ Will Critchlow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/willcritchlow Homepage Study:‬‭ https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/ai-homepage-traffic-increase SearchPilot:‬‭ https://www.searchpilot.com/Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Josh Blyskal, AEO Engineer at Profound, joins Ross Hudgens to dive deep into the emerging world of AI-native search optimization—and how brands can win visibility across platforms like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Google’s AI Overviews. They unpack Profound’s Conversation Explorer, fresh data on generative search intent, and the real-world tactics that drive clicks in the new AI-dominated SERP. From schema tips to 2025 URL hacks and LMS.txt files, this is the tactical roadmap for modern marketers navigating the future of search. Show Notes 0:08 – Why AI-native visibility is heating up 1:00 – Profound's Series A and platform momentum 2:15 – The moment for AI search is here 4:40 – How Profound built the largest dataset of answer engine queries 7:12 – New ad tech categories marketers aren’t tracking 9:40 – What “generative” search intent actually looks like 11:25 – Tools vs. blogs: what answer engines really cite 13:00 – Why traffic quality from AI sources is insanely high 15:05 – The rise of sponsored AI queries (and what to do about it) 16:50 – How to future-proof your site for ChatGPT + Perplexity 20:00 – Listicles dominate AI search—here’s why 22:30 – What Bing has to do with ChatGPT visibility 24:00 – URL strategies for boosting citations 28:40 – Semantic chunking and structured answers for pickup 31:00 – 2025 SEO hacks: title tags, slugs, and metadata tips 33:45 – Schema markup that actually works (hint: authorship) 36:00 – How freshness impacts AI citation cycles 39:20 – LMS.txt and LMS-fulltext: the new crawl frontier 41:10 – Why answer engines could free up web creativity 43:30 – Commercial landing pages are the future of evergreen visibility 46:00 – Profound’s upcoming launch: actions and content briefs 48:30 – Pricing, access, and how to get started with Profound Show Links Josh Blyskal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-blyskal/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-blyskal/ What content do AI engines like: https://www.xfunnel.ai/blog/what-content-type-ai-engines-like Profound: https://www.tryprofound.com/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Chris Kelly, ex-Asana growth lead, joins Ross Hudgens to break down how Asana scaled to 20M+ international SEO visits—and how to do it again in 2025. They dive into localization strategy, market prioritization, TMS tools, team structures, and how to tie international SEO directly to business outcomes. Chris also unpacks real-world mistakes, market-specific tactics, and where AI fits into future-proofing global content. Show Notes 0:08 – How Chris led Asana’s international SEO from 0 to 20M+ visits 2:12 – Aligning SEO with real business outcomes 4:27 – How to prioritize markets and go deep, not wide 6:06 – Why "strategy before scale" matters more than ever 9:09 – Centralized vs. distributed SEO models 10:13 – The localization decision waterfall: MT, native copy, or hybrid? 13:11 – Tiered frameworks for scaling efficiently across regions 16:43 – Localization teams and SEO: why they must integrate 18:05 – Market nuances: Japan vs. Germany 20:18 – The role of user research in international SEO success 22:02 – When to implement a Translation Management System (TMS) 25:33 – Real talk: the true cost of international SEO 28:18 – Mistakes to avoid: budget, ops, and lack of data 33:10 – Building the right international SEO team 35:06 – Communication tips for global collaboration 38:34 – How AI will transform international strategy and QA 42:26 – Will AI erase top-funnel SEO internationally? Show Links Chris Kelly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherakelly/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Rand Fishkin joins Ross Hudgens to unpack the latest acronym craze—GEO, AEO, LEO—and why none may be necessary. They explore the origins of SEO, the rise (and fall) of inbound marketing, and how marketers can avoid falling into the trap of trend-chasing. From naming conventions to the real value of brand clarity, this is a conversation for anyone navigating search in the age of AI. Rand also shares a bold bet on AI’s impact on jobs, reflects on his early days in the “promised land of SEO”—and discusses why “SEO for AI” might be the clearest path forward. Plus: Cooking games, Snack Bar Studios, and whether creating a new marketing category is ever worth the effort. Show Notes 0:08 – Why SEO has too many new acronyms 0:44 – The wild origin of SEO in Bend, Oregon 1:29 – Danny Sullivan, Circuit City, and the OG SEO crowd 2:54 – Who coined “zero-click search”? 3:29 – Why naming trends like GEO can hurt clarity 5:00 – Is GEO catching on because A16z backed it? 5:59 – Should we name this shift at all? 6:37 – Why "SEO for AI" is clearer than new acronyms 8:09 – Organic digital vs SEO vs paid—don’t confuse your client 9:33 – Naming things doesn’t always benefit the person who coined it 10:13 – Why SEO isn’t in decline (despite the narrative) 11:07 – Google is still orders of magnitude bigger than any AI tool 12:34 – Rand bets \$100K AI won’t take half of all jobs 13:39 – “SEO for AI” has 100% clarity, unlike GEO or AEO 14:58 – GEO and AEO should be considered tags under SEO 16:07 – Simplifying your services for buyers: SEO still works 17:11 – SEO can carry baggage—but it’s still foundational 18:20 – Organic growth as the category; SEO as the tactic 19:03 – The Snickers bar analogy for misaligned category tags 20:01 – Why HubSpot had the power to rebrand with inbound marketing 20:54 – Applying lessons from game tagging at Snack Bar Studios 22:16 – Final thoughts: ride the wave if you’re Mars; otherwise, keep it clear 23:07 – Rand’s AI/job displacement bet explained 24:53 – Revisiting his blockchain bet with Dharmesh from 2016 25:21 – What worries Rand more than AI? Government decisions 26:14 – Elon, politics, and the future of tech influence 26:22 – Snack Bar Studios: magical boars and carbonara 26:56 – Sparktoro and “Search Everywhere Optimization” 27:03 – Tagging the cooking game: chill action, story rich, 2D action 27:51 – Geraldine’s writing brings it to life Show Link It’s Still SEO (SparkToro Blog): (https://sparktoro.com/blog/its-still-seo-search-everywhere-optimization/](https://sparktoro.com/blog/its-still-seo-search-everywhere-optimization/) a16z: GEO Rewrites the Rules of Search: (https://a16z.com/geo-over-seo/) Rand’s Game Studio: (https://snackbarstudio.com/](https://snackbarstudio.com/) Subscribe today for weekly tips: (https://bit.ly/3dBM61f](https://bit.ly/3dBM61f) Listen on iTunes: (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174) Listen on Spotify: (https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM](https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM) Listen on Google: (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA) Follow Siege on Twitter: (http://twitter.com/siegemedia](http://twitter.com/siegemedia) Follow Ross on Twitter: (http://twitter.com/rosshudgens](http://twitter.com/rosshudgens) Directed by Cara Brown: (https://twitter.com/cararbrown](https://twitter.com/cararbrown) Email Ross: ([email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) #seo | #contentmarketing Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens and Drew Page sit down to unpack Siege Media’s latest study on the surprising shift in search behavior caused by AI-powered experiences and large language models (LLMs). The headline? Homepage traffic is up 10.7%—despite a decline in overall site wide clicks. They dive into the impact of branded search, the difference between B2B and B2C performance, and why your homepage might now be your most important conversion asset. From SEO’s evolving KPIs to strategies for retargeting and improving click-through rates, this conversation is a reality check—and a game plan—for marketers navigating the AI-dominated SERP. **Plus:** Siege Media’s own numbers, conversion math that makes sense of the doom-and-gloom, and actionable advice to build a brand that stands out in zero-click search results. Show Notes 0:08 – The optimism vs. pessimism spectrum in AI-driven search 0:42 – Why Ross launched this study in the first place 1:04 – From impressions up, clicks down—what triggered the deeper investigation 1:24 – Should SEO start valuing impressions like PR does? 1:51 – Why homepage clicks matter more than ever 2:29 – Branded search as the silent traffic driver 2:49 – What Siege saw across consumer & fintech sites 3:19 – Homepage impressions up 54%, site wide clicks down 4.8% 4:03 – Why that might be good news: homepage conversion rates 5:05 – B2C trends: more impressions, mixed click behavior 6:07 – B2B trends: homepage clicks up 15%, better revenue alignment 8:19 – Average position declines but branded queries still driving visits 9:36 – Seeing real value in brand mentions from ChatGPT, Perplexity, etc. 10:16 – Siege’s internal data: 30% homepage traffic lift, no pipeline drop 12:20 – Conversion math: homepage 3%, sitewide 1% 13:25 – The net positive: more conversions despite fewer visits 14:06 – Why you should optimize your homepage now 14:58 – Brand building, storytelling, and digital PR 15:46 – Homepage CTR and pricing page visibility wins 16:37 – Retargeting strategies for branded homepage traffic 17:00 – If you didn’t build a brand, this won’t help 17:44 – Aligning SEO with PPC to defend the SERP 18:25 – Communicating the impact to leadership 19:12 – Content quality still wins, even in LLMs 19:35 – Creating a brand health dashboard 20:22 – Final thoughts: conversion is the key metric, not traffic Show Links Full Study: https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/ai-homepage-traffic-increase Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross sits down with Kevin Indig, growth advisor and SEO strategist, to break down his groundbreaking UX study on Google’s AI Overviews—and what it reveals about the fast-changing landscape of search. From disappearing clicks to trust-first decision-making, Kevin shares how the rise of AI is reshaping everything from user behavior to what actually drives conversions. They dig into why CTR is no longer the north star metric, how age and device impact search habits, and why today’s SEO teams need to think far beyond blue links. Whether it’s surfacing trust signals, building brand awareness across platforms, or adapting to zero-click journeys, this conversation is packed with practical takeaways for future-proofing your organic strategy. Plus: the rise of interactive content, the power of review mining, and why mediocre AI content won’t cut it in 2025. Show Notes: 0:07 – Welcoming Kevin back and discussing the shift to AI Overview dominance 1:18 – Top 3 takeaways from Kevin’s study 4:42 – Why younger users love AIOs—and older users don’t trust them 5:37 – How brand strength is driving revenue despite declining CTRs 7:42 – Why results vary dramatically by industry (SaaS, e-comm, publishers) 9:20 – Mobile users scroll more—what that means for engagement 13:00 – Trust signals that matter: bylines, bios, disclosures & authority 16:14 – Riskier queries = higher skepticism. Assigning a “risk score” to search terms 19:18 – Why your SEO strategy must include Reddit, YouTube & non-Google channels 23:27 – New team structures: why SEOs must align with social, paid & brand 28:08 – Creating a brand health dashboard: tracking reach beyond Google 31:27 – Leveraging your existing customer base to create high-converting content 34:45 – How review mining and transcripts unlock real user needs 38:09 – AI-generated content: when it works, when it fails, and why “mediocre is invisible” 40:09 – Turning blog content into interactive tools for higher ROI and defensibility 43:34 – Mission statement generator: the surprising success story 46:43 – Final advice for SEOs in 2025: speed, adaptability, and user-first everything Show Links: Kevin’s UX Study on Google’s AI Overviews: [https://www.growth-memo.com/p/the-first-ever-ux-study-of-googles] Ramp’s Mission Statement Generator: [https://www.ramp.com/mission-statement-generator](https://www.ramp.com/mission-statement-generator) Optiversal – Turning reviews into content: [https://www.optiversal.com](https://www.optiversal.com) Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: [email protected] #seo | #contentmarketing