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Zach sits down with Kim and Tom Muench, married 34 years and parents of five kids who range in age from 21 to 39. Their story started before they did. Their parents were close friends who lived in side-by-side townhomes, Tom once babysat Kim and her younger brothers, and teenage Kim mostly thought of him as a dork. Years later, Kim moved in next door with her 3-year-old son, Nick, needed a date to her company Christmas party, and asked Tom. Six months later they were engaged. Tom’s careful plan (house in two years, baby two years after that) collapsed into a single year. From there, the conversation turns to how two very different parents raised five kids across three decades. Kim was 18 when she had Nick and 36 when she had Mia, their youngest, and she’s candid that she was a different parent each time. She read the books and chose to break from how she was raised: being grounded constantly as a teenager, she says, only taught her to lie until she could get out of the house. Tom was the provider and, by his own account, “the heavy,” the dad who said if you want a car, you get a job. They’re honest about the hardest stretch, too: rules that didn’t match between their house and Nick’s dad’s house, Tom knowing Nick was taking their liquor while Kim believed her son, and the call at 20 when Nick told her he couldn’t remember the last three days. Nick is 39 now and working his way back after a hard year, and Kim reflects on how different it is to face that with an adult than with a 21-year-old. The back half belongs to Kim’s work. Her book, Lost in Place, is a guide for parents of 18 to 30 year olds who aren’t becoming independent. She chose that phrase over “failure to launch” because if you’re lost, you can be found. She lays out the three things parents still control, her four Cs, and why this moment is so hard: screens, a generation that never socially recovered from COVID, high-potency marijuana, and parents who swung so far toward protecting their kids’ feelings that they can’t tolerate their own anxiety. If you’ve ever assumed parenting gets easier once they grow up, this episode resets that expectation and gives you a place to start. Key Takeaways Little kids are physically exhausting. Adult kids are mentally exhausting, because whatever illusion of control you had is gone.With an adult child, you control three things: how you show up, what you’re willing to provide, and how you respond to their choices.Stop trying to get someone else to do something. Focus on what you control, and the needle starts to move, slowly.Kim’s four Cs for showing up: clarity, calm, confidence, and consistency.Parenting from fear smells like control to your kids, and it breeds disconnection. Lead instead of control.If you want your adult child to follow through, model follow-through. Kids notice when your words and actions don’t match.Punishment can teach the wrong lesson. Kim’s constant groundings taught her to lie, so she never grounded her own kids.Two different parenting styles can work when you each know your lane and agree on the core values. In Tom’s words, “the same book, maybe a different chapter once in a while.”Guest Info Kim Muench (pronounced “Minch”) Certified parent coach (Jai Institute for Parenting, 2016) and founder of Real Life Parent Guide, based in Flower Mound, TexasCoaches parents of emerging adults, roughly 18 to 30, on communication, boundaries, and rebuilding trust, especially when mental health or substance use is involvedAuthor of Lost in Place: How to Support, Motivate, and Launch an Adult Child, and the memoir Becoming Me While Raising You: A Mother’s Journey to Her Self (2021)Runs a parent support group that meets twice a week, plus private coaching sessionsWebsite: https://www.reallifeparentguide.com/Instagram and TikTok: @kimmuenchparentcoach Tom Muench Kim’s husband of 34 years and franchise partner at Expedia Cruises Flower Mound since 2017, after leaving corporate sales See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach has watched the People Make Games documentary about Jerry's Map twice, and cried both times. So when Jerry Gretzinger and his wife Meg Staley join him, almost 45 years into their marriage, he sets the map aside and asks about the two of them. They met in SoHo in 1979 when Jerry hired Meg to handle press and sales for a designers' co-op. She was 29 and newly sober. He was nine years older, divorced, and a father of two. They became friends, then business partners, and eventually built Staley/Gretzinger, a one-of-a-kind clothing line sold in Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's, and Bergdorf Goodman. Two designers in one small company meant they had to make rules early: whoever led a product line got the final say, and the other could only offer a critique. Meg calls marriage a system of agreements, most of them unspoken, that only get looked at when they stop working. Jerry is honest about how hard it was to hand Meg the lead design role in a company that started as his, and how a small product line of his own, maybe 15% of the business, eased the resentment. They talk about bedtime fights, a hard stretch with a teenage son that sent them into couples therapy, and how the 12-step programs they both work gave them a shared language. Jerry still remembers the first question of his fourth-step inventory: what was your mother's relationship with her family? The last third gets tender. Jerry describes sobbing over the documentary's comments every time a viewer mentioned the couple's affection. Meg explains why his "do something and see what happens" process drives her crazy in the garden, and why the move from their Hudson Valley community to the family farm in Michigan, a sacrifice for her, started the sweetest 10 or 15 years of their marriage. If you want to hear what long love looks like when two people have already done the hard work, press play. Key Takeaways Marriage runs on a system of agreements. Most of them are intuitive, and you only examine them when they collide.When two strong people share one space, decide in advance who gets the final say on what. Then let the other person critique without taking over.Resentment often comes from feeling you have no control or agency. Carving out even a small area that is fully yours can ease it.Kids change how you use your time. What used to be "my time" now takes an agreement with your partner.Couples therapy can work by giving you practice talking to each other, so the communication carries on after the sessions end.Understanding your parents often means understanding how they were parented. The question "what was your mother's relationship with her family?" can open a lot.Small acts of care, like asking whether your partner is drinking enough water, are how couples protect each other day to day.A marriage lasts when the relationship matters more than either person alone, and both are willing to give up something to keep it.Guest Info Meg Staley Colorist, printmaker, and clothing designer. Meg grew up in Bellevue, Washington, graduated from Smith College as a printmaker, and worked at Nordstrom before moving to New York to represent small designers, one of whom was Jerry. Together they ran Staley/Gretzinger for about 25 years, with coverage in Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, and Elle, before selling the company. She now works as Meg Staley Handmade, making one-of-a-kind women's clothing, home goods, and commissioned legacy quilts from a family's own clothes, out of a studio in Cedar, Michigan, where she also hosts a women's AA meeting. She doesn't sell online. Website: megstaley.com Jerry Gretzinger Artist and clothing designer, born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1942. Jerry studied architecture and liberal arts, served in the Peace Corps in Tunisia, and moved to New York in 1973, where he started a handbag company before co-founding Staley/Gretzinger with Meg. He is best known for Jerry's Map, an imaginary world he started as a doodle at a summer job in 1963. It has grown to more than 4,000 eight-by-ten-inch panels that keep changing according to a custom deck of cards. Website: jerrysmap.com Instagram: @jerrysmap_1963 YouTube: @jerrygretzinger9861 Facebook: jerrysmap1963 The documentery film is found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is8N7B9b0GQ Meg and Jerry have been married almost 45 years and live on their farm in Maple City, Michigan. They have four children: two sons together, plus Jerry's daughter and son from his first marriage. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach talks with Dr. Jenni Skyler and Daniel Lebowitz, the married sex therapists behind the Intimacy Institute, and starts somewhere unexpected: their Sunday night calendar meeting. Before the conversation ever gets to the bedroom, Jenni and Daniel walk through the weekly check-in they swear by as parents of two boys, covering finances, kids' schedules, board meetings, and a bar mitzvah on the horizon. It's not sexy, Jenni admits, but she says it's exactly what clears her head enough to be present for the parts that are. From there, Zach brings them a pattern he's seeing again and again in his own practice: couples in their 40s, 50s, and 60s where she is waking up to her sexuality and he is coasting, happy with his garage and his sports and not all that interested. Jenni and Daniel lay out what they'd look for. They start with testosterone and move through resentment, an old affair that never healed, fear of his body failing him, and what Daniel calls a resistance to dreaming. Daniel's emergency brake image, where everything in a man's life carries just a little extra friction, is one of the clearest descriptions of low testosterone you'll hear. The couple also tells their origin stories. Jenni played Dr. Ruth to her friends and wrote her own Vagina Monologues piece in college. Daniel's grandmother asked about his sex life in front of his girlfriends, he lost his father when he was 7, and men's work led him, reluctantly, into sex therapy. The last stretch turns to pleasure itself. Jenni pushes back on the idea that we have to earn it, Zach floats a theory that people who struggle with pleasure in the bedroom might start at the dinner table, and Daniel shares a steak analogy that perfectly captures what performance anxiety does to sex. If your sex life has gone quiet, or one of you wants more than the other, this episode gives you a long list of places to look and a lot of permission to slow down. Key Takeaways A weekly logistics check-in isn't romantic, but clearing the mental clutter of schedules and bills makes it easier to be present for intimacy.Intimacy can work like a junk drawer: the unresolved dynamics in a relationship tend to end up there, which is why working on intimacy often means working on everything else.Sex is often the symptom that gets a couple through the door, not the whole problem. The deeper work is usually underneath.When a midlife man's desire drops, the causes can include low testosterone, resentment, unhealed betrayal, depression, trauma, or fear that his body won't cooperate.Some partners stop hoping for a better sex life because it feels safer than being disappointed. "If I never get to go to Hawaii, then I won't miss it."A man who has always been the initiator may freeze when his partner starts initiating, especially if he has quietly relied on planning ahead to feel confident.You don't have to earn pleasure through suffering or productivity. Practicing it in everyday ways, like eating slowly or taking a warm shower, can make it easier to access in the bedroom.Rules and performance pressure crowd out pleasure. When you're focused on doing it right, you stop noticing what you're actually experiencing.Guest Info Dr. Jenni Skyler Sex therapist and founder of the Intimacy Institute, which she started before she met Daniel. Its mission is "giving all people permission for pleasure." She hosts the Sex and the Psyche podcast and is active on social as Dr. Jenni Skyler (spelled "with an I"). Daniel Lebowitz Sex therapist at the Intimacy Institute who focuses on men's work and masculinity. He has a master's degree in Latin American studies and planned to become a history professor. He later trained as a therapist and joined the practice. He's not on social media. Jenni and Daniel are married with two sons, ages 10 and 12. The Intimacy Institute offers clinical sex and relationship therapy, from brief solution-focused work to longer, deeper relational work. They also run private multi-day couples intensives built around each couple. website: https://www.intimacyinstitute.org/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach flips the usual format and welcomes two fellow podcasters: Iona Monk and Pam Stewart, the therapists behind Relationship Dish. They're podcast partners, not romantic partners, and they're quick to add that they'd be a terrible match anyway (Iona pursues, Pam withdraws). Iona started the show to take the shame out of couples therapy. Couples tend to show up six or seven years too late, like walking into a dentist after years away and asking them to save the tooth. If two therapists can talk openly about their own marriages, maybe everyone else will get help sooner. Pam brings a different lens from years of family therapy, where parents often believe everything would be fine if the kid would just change. That idea turns into the backbone of the conversation: systems resist change. Iona calls it homeostasis, the pull back to whatever the body and brain already know. Pam calls it the "misery stabilizer," and points out how much energy it takes to keep things stuck. Zach pushes back on the idea that people hate change. They change their clothes every day. What they hate is loss, and they don't move until the cost of staying the same outweighs the cost of changing. From there, the three of them run with a Home Depot metaphor. Couples come in asking for tools, but a good helper asks what you're building first, and you don't hand a power saw to a kid. Iona shares a story about a couple who wanted "tools" mostly so one could hit the other over the head with them. The episode closes with Iona's new book, Happy for the Long Haul, which looks at marital conflict through five lenses, including relational trauma and what she calls the biological need for speed: the way growing up in chaos can leave your body craving the adrenaline of conflict. Zach connects it to what he calls relational recovery, the idea that all of us are hooked on the protective systems we learned as kids. It's a smart, funny, and practical conversation about why couples stay stuck and what it takes to finally move. Key Takeaways People don't resist change. They resist loss. Name what the change will cost you, and it gets easier to face.You won't change until staying the same costs more than changing. Part of good therapy is helping you see that cost clearly.Staying miserable takes more energy than it looks like. Couples often realize this only after they've changed.Sometimes a couple avoids doing the work because failing would be scarier than staying stuck. Not trying protects the fantasy that things could be better "someday."Tools don't help until you know what you're building. Figure out whether you need fresh paint, a remodel, or a new foundation.A relationship tool can become a weapon. If you're using what you learned in therapy to prove your partner wrong, you're missing the point.The problem is rarely one person. It's the cycle you've built together, and that cycle is your common enemy.The survival strategies that protected you as a kid can sink you as an adult. You can survive or you can thrive, but you can't do both. Guest Info Iona Monk is a registered clinical counsellor in the greater Vancouver area with a graduate degree from the University of British Columbia. She works with couples and individuals, mainly through the lens of attachment and defense systems, with emotionally focused therapy as a core approach. She has 25 years of experience as a couples therapist. Iona co-hosts Relationship Dish and is the author of Happy for the Long Haul, a practical guide to building a marriage that goes the distance, drawn from her client work and her own 30-year relationship. The book came out September 22 and is available on Amazon. Pam Stewart is a registered clinical counsellor with master's degrees from the University of British Columbia and the University of Colorado. Her clinical focus is parents and children, helping families build healthy attachment relationships, often alongside child therapists and psychiatry as part of a coordinated care team. She says she's retired, but she still does some family therapy and has a side business in interior design. Pam and Iona met in grad school and co-host Relationship Dish together. Relationship Dish is a podcast where two therapists talk honestly about their own romantic relationships. New episodes come out every two weeks on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and other podcast apps. Iona's practice and show page: ionamonkcouplestherapy.com/relationshipdishBook: Happy for the Long Haul (Amazon)Show socials: Instagram @relationshipdish Crossover note: Zach also appeared on Relationship Dish to talk about the movie The Invite. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach talks with Yowei Shaw and Kyle Pulley, a married couple who make the podcast Proxy together, a show that investigates "emotional mysteries" by connecting people who feel alone in a specific conundrum with a stranger who has lived through something close to it. Yowei spent about seven years creating and hosting the NPR documentary series Invisibilia before she was laid off in 2023. Kyle co-owns a recording studio in Philadelphia and plays a hands on role in Proxy, mixing episodes, managing the spreadsheets, and generally functioning, in his own words, as Yowei's bedraggled podcast spouse. They met on OkCupid, where Yowei used a flimsy pretext (she asked Kyle, an audio engineer, for help recording a narration she had already written an article about how to do herself) to get to know a guy with cute band photos. Most of the conversation traces how that early flirtation turned into a real, ongoing negotiation. When Yowei's NPR job pulled her to DC, Kyle stayed in Philadelphia with his studio and his music scene, and for years the two of them lived split lives, with Yowei commuting by Amtrak and Kyle rearranging his schedule, his living situation, and his role in the house to make it work. The bigger shift came when Yowei's income outpaced Kyle's and she became, unexpectedly, the breadwinner. She's candid that this new power showed up in their fights as an unfair trump card, and just as candid about how getting laid off in 2023 flipped the dynamic again, sending her into what she calls a complete mess of a stretch that Kyle met with support instead of shame. They talk through what stuck from couples therapy, and the concept from Yowei's individual therapist about not letting one partner absorb all the worry in a relationship, a framework they still use today around money, the future of the show, and the question of having kids. What makes the conversation land isn't that Yowei and Kyle have solved any of this. It's that they've built small, repeatable structures, a weekly "proxy meeting" to keep the podcast's business from leaking into date nights, permission to have a real blowup about once a quarter and then let it go, honesty about which gender roles still sneak up on them even though they don't believe in them, that let two strong willed, creative people keep choosing each other. It's a warm, funny, unusually honest look at a relationship that runs on ongoing negotiation rather than a moment when everything got figured out. Key Takeaways Negotiation isn't a phase a couple moves past. Kyle says what convinced him he wanted to stay was that they always came back to the negotiating table, not that they stopped needing to.A sudden shift in who earns more money changes the emotional balance of a relationship, not just the financial one, and both partners have to consciously renegotiate power along with the budget.A recurring check in meeting, even a literal business meeting with a whiteboard, keeps one source of stress (in this case, the podcast) from leaking into every other part of a relationship.Learning your own rhythm for conflict, how often you blow up and how you repair afterward, matters more than trying to avoid conflict altogether.When one partner absorbs all the worry or responsibility for the future, there's no room for the other to step in. Deliberately pulling back can invite a partner to show up.Gender roles a couple has rejected intellectually can still resurface underneath old fights, especially around money and caretaking.Unconditional support through a layoff or career setback, without shame or pressure to hurry up, can become the turning point that redefines who carries a relationship's weight.Couples therapy can feel like it's taking sides when it's actually just holding both partners equally accountable, and that discomfort is often the useful part.Guest Info Yowei Shaw, creator and host of Proxy, an independent, mostly listener-funded podcast that investigates specific, private emotional conundrums. She calls herself an emotional investigative journalist. Before Proxy she spent years at NPR as a producer, co-host, and editorial lead on Invisibilia, with earlier stints as a temp on Fresh Air and stories for This American Life. Invisibilia was canceled and she was laid off from NPR in 2023, after which she built Proxy independently from Philadelphia. Website: https://yoweishaw.com   Show:  https://proxypodcast.com  Instagram: @yoweishaw (personal), @proxypodcast (show)  Kyle Pulley, Philadelphia music producer, audio engineer, and bassist. Co-founder and co-owner of Headroom Studios (with Joe Reinhart). Production and engineering credits include Dr. Dog, Alex G, Hop Along, Jay Som, Adult Mom, Diet Cig, Shamir, and Kississippi, among others. Also plays bass and co-writes in the band Thin Lips. He's the mixing engineer on Proxy and married to Yowei Shaw; Proxy's about page credits him as Mixing Engineer / Bedraggled Podcast Spouse. Website: https://kylepulley.net Studio: https://headroom.studio Instagram: @kylepulley (personal), @headroomphiladelphia (studio) Threads: @kylepulley See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with Don and Carrie Cole, the Gottman Institute's clinical director and research director, and asks the question the show always comes back to: forget the credentials, what actually makes your own marriage work? Both Coles came into this relationship out of first marriages that failed. Don spent years stuffing his feelings to avoid upsetting his first wife, and it cost him the marriage. Carrie survived a relationship that was psychologically and physically abusive, what she still calls "manhandling" rather than assign it the harsher name it deserves. Thirty years later, with an anniversary trip already booked, they're still negotiating a blended family, a chronic disagreement about punctuality, and an unmade bed, while trying to actually practice what they've spent their careers teaching. The conversation moves fast between the personal and the professional, because for the Coles those two things are the same material. Don walks through the three words he tells every couple in therapy, "that makes sense," and what it costs him to mean them when his wife brings him a plan he didn't ask for. Carrie explains the physiological version of the same idea, how her heart rate visibly drops when Don validates her, and how the worst sign in a relationship isn't two partners fighting, it's one partner's pain landing on a partner who feels nothing at all. They trace their own origin story back to a staff meeting in the mid-90s, before they were a couple, when Don asked Carrie if she'd ever heard of John Gottman and she said she owned everything he'd ever written. From there the two of them talk candidly about where the Gottman Method runs out of answers, the couples where one partner is in and one is out, the ones who've gone flat instead of fighting, and where they'd push back on John Gottman himself if the science let them. The back half of the episode turns to The New Marriage Clinic Casebook, a new collection Don and Carrie edited for the Gottman Institute, seventeen chapters from seventeen different clinicians, including one contributed by Zach himself. The throughline of the book is that almost nobody walks into couples therapy with just a relationship problem. Depression, addiction, trauma, eating disorders, and affairs all tend to show up in the room too, and Don and Carrie talk through which chapters from their contributors surprised them and why. Zach's read on the whole conversation, echoed straight back to him, is the throughline of just about every good relationship the show has ever featured: take care of your own side of the street first. For anyone who assumes the experts have it figured out and the rest of us are just behind, this is a look at two people who wrote the research and still have to work at it. Key Takeaways Learning to speak up about your needs, instead of stuffing them to keep the peace, is what prevented Don's second marriage from repeating his first one's slow build of resentment.Surviving an abusive first marriage taught Carrie two rules for her second: never allow herself to be mistreated again, and never let anyone tell her no. That's what she credits for her lasting gratitude toward Don.Once you control for blended families and stepchildren, the divorce rate for second marriages isn't actually higher than for first marriages, it just looks that way in the aggregate."That makes sense" is Don's shorthand for accepting influence. You don't have to agree with your partner's plan to validate that their reasoning makes sense, and doing it consistently changes the emotional temperature of a marriage.Repair after snapping at your partner isn't about placating them. It's about recognizing you crossed a line with someone you love and making it right, which is a different motivation entirely.In relationship research, mutual negativity between partners is actually a better sign than indifference. A partner whose mood isn't affected at all by their spouse's distress is a worse predictor than a couple who fights.Real validation has three steps: naming the feeling, having your partner accurately reflect it back, and confirming out loud that they got it. That third step, confirmed understanding, is what actually lands.The hardest couples to treat aren't the loud ones. They're the ambivalent couples where one partner is in and one is out, and the "disaffected" couples who've stopped fighting because they've stopped caring.Guest Info Dr. Don Cole Clinical director of the Gottman Institute Dr. Carrie Cole Research director of the Gottman Institute They've been married almost 30 years, a second marriage for both, and blended a family that included Carrie's two children from her first marriage and Don's son. They're on the episode to talk about their own relationship and to introduce The New Marriage Clinic Casebook, a seventeen-chapter book they edited for the Gottman Institute featuring contributions from clinicians across the field, including a chapter written by Zach himself, on couples therapy when depression, addiction, trauma, neurodiversity, eating disorders, or affairs are also in the room. The book releases at the end of September and is in presales now, with an audiobook edition to follow. Presale link: https://link.amazon/B00O0vBDw See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with Adam and Judith Nisenson, a husband and wife who both work in the betrayal space from opposite sides. Adam is known online as the betrayal shrink and works almost exclusively with men who have been cheated on. Judith works with women who have cheated, and hosts her own podcast, Women Cheat Too. They're four years into their second marriage together, and Zach opens by asking who they are as a couple before getting into the work. The conversation moves through their own story first: seven years of friendship before their first date, and Adam telling Judith he was all in before their first weekend together was even over. From there they get into the parts of betrayal that rarely get said out loud. Judith argues that women almost never cheat for sex itself, that it's usually a transactional stand in for validation and attention they aren't getting at home. Adam pushes back on the double standard that lets men off the hook for cheating while women who cheat get treated like the lowest part of the earth. They also talk candidly about their own healing: Judith describes losing her voice in her first marriage and slowly rebuilding it through yoga training and years in Landmark Worldwide, and Adam traces his own change back to the Mankind Project and the fear he carried into his first marriage of ever speaking his truth. Where the episode really lands is Adam's phrase for it: the gift of betrayal. He tells the men in his groups that if they aren't willing to look at their own part, not the affair itself, but the avoidance or unconsciousness that made room for it, there's no gift in going through it at all. Judith and Adam agree on something bigger too: betrayal is betrayal, whether it's an affair or a partner who quietly checked out of the marriage years before they said so, and nobody gets to rank whose pain counts more. For a couple listening who suspects they're further along in this than they want to admit, or for anyone bracing to hear that their own version of betrayal doesn't count because no one physically cheated, this episode makes the case that the work is the same either way: find your voice, stop pretending, and do the far harder job of understanding what happened instead of just surviving it. Key Takeaways Women rarely cheat for the sex itself, it's usually a stand in for validation, attention, and feeling seenSociety punishes women who cheat far more harshly than it punishes men who cheatAn emotional affair can do as much damage as a physical one, sometimes moreLosing your own voice in a relationship is its own quiet form of betrayalHealing starts with the individual work, not the couples workReframing an affair as "the gift of betrayal" only works if you're willing to look at your own partBetrayal isn't only an affair. A partner who checked out long before they said so counts too, and the impact isn't a competitionSmall, consistent rituals, like a monthly love letter, keep a relationship honest over the long runGuest Info Adam Nisenson, LMFT, CSAT, is a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex addiction therapist known online as The Betrayal Shrink. His own betrayal journey started 13 years ago, and out of it he created the Masculine Betrayal Trauma (MBT) framework for how men uniquely experience and process partner betrayal. He wrote A Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal: Overcoming the Pain and Repercussions of a Cheating Partner, hosts the podcast Men Get Cheated On Too!, and runs private coaching, men's betrayal groups, and Brotherhood in Betrayal retreats. Website: betrayalshrink.com Instagram: @betrayalshrink Judith Flores-Nisenson is the founder of WomensWRK, an ICF Associate Certified Coach (ACC) and APSATS Certified Partner Coach (CPC) who works with women on every side of betrayal, including women who've betrayed a partner. She hosts the podcast Women Cheat Too!, now more than 50 episodes in, and runs coaching groups including an 8-week Women Cheat TOO track. Also known professionally as Judith Nisenson. Website: womenswrk.com Instagram: @womens.wrk Adam and Judith are married, and often present complementary sides of betrayal work, Adam with men who've been cheated on, Judith with women who've done the cheating. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with Neal and Rachel Miskell, a couple who got married in 2008, divorced, and remarried years later, and asks the question most people never get to ask a couple who made it back: what actually happened in between? Rachel is a mom of three and a marketing director for the 11th Force Support Squadron on an Air Force base. Neal had just come home from Afghanistan when their marriage started to unravel, carrying PTSD, contempt, and a habit of projecting his pain onto Rachel. The conversation is less about what broke them than about the specific, unglamorous work that put them back together. Neal traces his turning point to therapy, and to one question from his therapist that he still remembers word for word: have you ever listened to yourself talk? That's the moment he learned what congruency meant, that his thoughts, words, and actions weren't lining up, and started doing the harder work of owning his part, including a small, petty story about refusing to buy Rachel a birthday gift that he still isn't proud of. Rachel tells her side plainly: she wasn't interested in fixing anything at first. She wanted to tolerate what was happening, not repair it, and she refused to go to therapy until she'd decided for herself whether the marriage could actually be different. The shift for her didn't come from Neal's effort alone. It came the day their divorce was finalized, watching how hurt he was, and realizing she'd made a mistake. What makes the episode land is how unsentimental both of them are about the process. Neal describes the two and a half years he spent doing his own work while Rachel wasn't ready to meet him there, and the moment he finally had to be at peace with the possibility that she never would be. Rachel names her own condition plainly: therapy, together, or nothing. They talk about the R3 framework Neal built out of that period, regulated, respectful, repairable, and Reframe, the communication tool he created to help couples catch toxic patterns before they cause damage. Zach's read on the whole thing is the throughline that ties it together: people don't change until something forces them to, and the real skill isn't avoiding the blowup, it's learning how to repair after one. For anyone wondering whether a broken marriage can actually be rebuilt, or bracing for the possibility that it can't, this is a rare look at two people who did it twice. Key Takeaways Repair matters more than perfection. Neal and Rachel are explicit that their second marriage isn't conflict-free, it's just better at recovering from conflict.Change that only happens under threat of losing the relationship isn't the finish line. The real work is learning to keep changing once the threat is gone."The pattern is the problem, not the person" reframes blame into something both partners can actually work on together.Refusing therapy isn't always avoidance. For Rachel, it was about deciding for herself whether the marriage could change before she'd risk being hurt again.Congruency, when your thoughts, words, and actions actually line up, is a specific, checkable thing, not a vague self-improvement goal.Small resentments compound. Neal's story about withholding a birthday gift shows how petty moments build into the bigger pattern that ends a marriage.Watching a partner sustain change over years, not weeks, is often what makes reconciliation possible.A shared condition, like committing to therapy together, can be the line that turns "maybe" into "yes." Guest Info Neal Miskell is a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and the founder of WEreFrame LLC, creator of Reframe, a communication tool built on the R3 framework (regulated, respectful, repairable) that helps people catch toxic communication patterns before they cause damage. He and Rachel married in 2008, divorced, and remarried after several years of individual and couples therapy. He's on the episode to walk through what his own accountability work looked like from the inside, and to talk about the tool he built out of that process. Rachel Miskell is a mom of three and a marketing director for the 11th Force Support Squadron, supporting programs for single airmen and families on an Air Force base. She's Neal's wife, and she's on the episode as a voice in her own right: the partner who refused therapy until she was ready, who needed real evidence of change before she'd risk trusting it again, and who ultimately chose to rebuild the marriage on her own terms. Website: wereframe.com See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach steps out of the host chair for this one. In a swap with Heather Shannon of Sex for Couples, Zach is the guest, and the conversation goes straight at a question most couples never ask out loud: what is sex actually for, and does that answer change over the life of a marriage? Zach, who's been married almost thirty years, and Heather dig into why frequency becomes the default target when quality and clarity would serve couples better. The conversation moves through the different eras a long marriage passes through, the anthropological reasons couples tend to hit a reset every few years, and the idea that any long marriage is really four or five different marriages stitched together. Zach shares specific, practical scenes from his own relationship, including a three hour float down a river with his wife where they talked about sex without ever touching, and describes a couple in his practice who solved their standoff by simply negotiating who gets what on which night. Heather brings in patterns she sees in her own client work, particularly the tendency to take sexual disconnection personally and the exhausting decision fatigue around initiating. Together they name two questions Zach uses to open nearly every session on this topic: what's it for, and what counts. The takeaway isn't a technique. It's a shift in framing, from sex as an obligation or a performance with a pass or fail outcome, to sex as something couples can actually get better at on purpose, the same way they'd get better at any skill they cared about. For anyone who's felt the pressure of "we should be having more sex" without ever stopping to ask what sex is supposed to accomplish, this conversation gives language for that gap, and permission to define it differently. Key Takeaways Frequency is the wrong target. The better question is whether the sex you're having is actually good, and whether you're willing to get better at it on purpose.Sex is a skill, not a talent you either have or don't. It can be learned, practiced, and improved the same way any hobby can.Ask "what counts?" Narrow definitions of sex (intercourse only, simultaneous orgasm only) create a lot of ways to fail and very few ways to succeed.Intimacy is broader than sex. Physical closeness that isn't sexual, and sexual conversation that isn't physical, both count and both matter.Spontaneity is a myth for anything you actually care about. Couples plan meals, workouts, and sleep. Sex deserves the same intentionality.When you don't want sex, get specific about what you don't want. It's rarely your partner. It's more often boredom, exhaustion, or feeling obligated.A long marriage isn't one marriage. It's several different eras, and checking in roughly every three years, with a therapist or a trusted person, helps couples pivot into the next one.The most durable relationship habit isn't avoiding conflict, it's getting good at repair, and doing more of what your partner likes while doing less of what they don't.Guest Info This episode centers on a conversation between Zach and Heather Shannon, LCPC, CST (she/her), an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist and host of the podcast Sex for Couples. Heather refers to working directly with clients around sex and communication in relationships throughout the conversation. Listen to Sex For Couples: podfollow.com/askasextherapist Website: HeatherShannon.co See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with baseball legend Darryl Strawberry and his wife Tracy for a conversation that has almost nothing to do with baseball. Both are on their third marriage. Both are in long term recovery, Darryl more than two decades sober, Tracy twenty five years clean. And both point to the same turning point in their story: faith. Zach wants to know what actually sits underneath a phrase couples say so easily, Christ is at the center of our marriage, especially since, as he points out, scripture itself says very little about marriage directly. What follows is unusually candid. Darryl and Tracy talk about the difference between humility and humiliation, and why fighting dirty means trying to shame your partner instead of solving the problem with them. Tracy describes watching Darryl in active addiction and reaching the point where loving him didn't mean rescuing him anymore, a moment she names plainly: he was too painful to love, not unworthy of it. Darryl traces his own turning point back further than the drugs, to the rejection of his father and the bitterness he carried underneath the addiction itself. And Tracy explains how she knew his recovery was real, not because he said the right things, but because his actions stayed consistent over time. They also get into raising nine kids across a blended family, the moment Tracy told Darryl to take his baseball uniform off and figure out who he was as a man, and what it actually looks like to stay married to someone you see only a few days a month. The reason to press play is that this isn't a highlight reel of two people who fixed their lives. It's a working theory of how repair actually happens: naming the wound before you can heal it, choosing consistency over grand gestures, and refusing to let ego, which Darryl defines simply as Easing God Out, decide who wins the argument. Anyone piecing a marriage back together after addiction, infidelity, or just years of distance will find something to hold onto here. Key Takeaways Humility and humiliation aren't the same thing. Humility invites you both to the same level to find a solution. Humiliation is fighting dirty, trying to wound your partner instead of working with them.Trust isn't rebuilt with an apology. It's rebuilt through consistency over time, doing the same right thing again and again until it becomes believable.Unhealed wounds from your past don't stay in your past. Left alone, they bleed into your marriage and erode it from the inside.Recovery isn't only about quitting a substance. It's about dealing with whatever is underneath it, for Darryl that meant confronting the bitterness and rejection wound from his father.Loving someone in active addiction can reach a point where stepping back isn't giving up on them, it's refusing to keep enabling the behavior that's killing them.Blended families take a village. The Strawberrys say it takes nineteen people, across both sides of two divorces, to make their family work.You don't have to make love complicated. A home cooked meal, a card, or a phone call can matter more than a big gesture.Adult children still carry the wounds of a divorce they never chose. Being a great listener matters more than being right.Guest Info Darryl Strawberry, former Major League Baseball player who spent much of his career with the New York Mets. author of the book Another Life. In long term recovery from addiction, more than two decades sober at the time of this conversation. Tracy Strawberry, Darryl's wife, a pastor who works at the Dream Center in St. Louis, a recovery home for men and women. Twenty five years in recovery herself. Book: Another Life, out now, available wherever books are sold. https://amzn.to/4cqjAAs See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with his cousin Kara and her wife Stacy, two women he has known since before they were officially a couple, for a conversation that starts as a family reunion and turns into something much deeper. Kara and Stacy have been together for 26 years, married twice (once in civil union, once when it finally became legal), and are raising two kids, Rylan, 11, and Avery, 13, in a household they describe as running on accommodations instead of an off switch. The conversation moves through family history most people don't say out loud, including an unaddressed abuser in Kara's extended family and the trickle-down effect it has had for generations. From there, Kara and Stacy talk candidly about parenting a neurodivergent son, the grief of letting go of the parent they each expected to be, and the strategy, cost, and constant vigilance behind things as simple as a trip to an amusement park. They also get into what makes their marriage work: they don't fight, they disagree and stay in the room, and their professional lives in education and mental health mean they never fully clock out. What makes this one land is the honesty. Kara names her own theory of generational trauma, "the story you tell yourself," and traces it back to her mother, who buffered her from the worst of it without either of them ever naming it that way. Stacy, in turn, reflects on being raised by people with hot tempers and choosing, quietly and consistently, not to pass that down. By the end, Kara turns the mirror back on Zach and Rebecca's own marriage, and the answer she gives him, that you can't rationalize your way out of anything in a relationship, is as much a takeaway for the listener as it is for Zach. Key Takeaways Generational trauma doesn't move in a straight line. It finds new paths even when you think you've closed off the old ones."The story you tell yourself" can outlast the actual event, and revisiting your own history later in life can change what you thought you knew about it.A buffer parent, someone who absorbs hardship so their kids don't have to, can shape a person's resilience without either of them realizing it at the time.Disagreement doesn't have to mean conflict. Communication skills, not avoidance, are what let a couple skip the fighting altogether.Parenting a neurodivergent child often means grieving the parent you expected to be, even while embracing who your child actually is.Accommodations can be a love language: constant, invisible planning (escape routes, VIP tickets, visual aids) that a child may never recognize as an act of love.You can't feel or rationalize your way out of relationship problems. Longevity comes from staying honest and staying in it, even when one partner is healthier than the other at a given moment.Space, grace, and time: not every conversation needs to happen immediately, and giving people room to come back to it matters as much as the conversation itself.Guest Info Kara and Stacy are Zach's cousin (by marriage on his wife's side). Both work in education and mental health: Kara does professional talks and introductions related to her field, and Stacy is a science inclusion teacher. They live in New Jersey with their two children. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with Deborah Rozman, Ph.D. and Howard Martin, the married couple who have led HeartMath Institute since its founding in 1991. Zach came in curious after hearing his mentor Terry Real rave about HeartMath at a Relational Life Institute faculty meeting, and he opens the conversation admitting he still does not fully understand what it is or how it works. Howard and Deborah, who are married to each other and have built HeartMath's research and technology together for over three decades, walk him through it from both a science angle and a lived-in-a-marriage angle. The conversation moves from the physiology, heart rate variability, coherence, the connection between the physical and emotional heart, into a story about a couple named Tammy and Raynor who came to Deborah through the Dr. Phil Show on the edge of divorce and, after learning to get into a coherent state individually before talking to each other, fell back in love within a handful of sessions. Deborah also teaches a version of the Quick Coherence technique live on air. Howard, meanwhile, shares the three things he actually practices in his own marriage: looking at himself first instead of blaming Deborah, staying neutral instead of jumping to judgment, and what he calls compassionate latitude, stretching compassion further than feels automatic. What makes this one land is that Howard and Deborah are not just explaining a technology, they are describing how they have stayed married and mostly conflict free for 36 years using it. Zach's own admission, that a bad afternoon of tech problems left him dysregulated for four days, gives the science somewhere real to land. Listeners get both the research behind why nervous system regulation changes how couples fight and a technique they can use in the next argument. Key Takeaways Your nervous system state, not your communication skills, often determines how a conversation with your partner actually goesGetting yourself into a calm, coherent state before you try to talk about a conflict changes the outcome more than any script or toolA couple on the brink of divorce turned things around by learning to self-regulate individually before communicating with each other at allCompassionate latitude means stretching your compassion further than the point where you normally shut it off, especially with the person closest to youWhen something feels off in a relationship, look at your own contribution first before looking at your partnerNeutral is not passive, it is a highly aware state that has not yet rushed to judge something as good or badYour heart rhythm is picked up by people near you, even without touching, so the state you walk into a room with mattersQuick Coherence, heart-focused breathing paired with a feeling of genuine gratitude, is simple enough to use in the middle of an argumentGuest Info Deborah Rozman, Ph.D., is President and co-CEO of HeartMath, a behavioral psychologist who helped found the Institute of HeartMath in 1991 and helped develop the emWave and Inner Balance heart rate variability technologies. She co-authored the Transforming book series with Doc Childre. Howard Martin is Executive Vice President, Strategic Development at HeartMath, where he has served as a key spokesperson and executive since helping Doc Childre found the organization in 1991. He co-authored The HeartMath Solution with Childre and has spent over thirty years in personal development and business. Deborah and Howard have been married to each other for 36 years. Links Website: heartmath.com See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach trades chairs this week. Instead of interviewing a couple, he's the one being interviewed, sitting down with Melissa Vogel of The Bomb Life for a wide-ranging conversation about what actually makes relationships work. Melissa is a health and fitness coach who works with individuals, often watching one partner transform physically and emotionally while the other stays stuck, and she brings that exact tension to Zach directly: what do you do when you're doing the work and your partner won't join you? Zach doesn't soften the answer. He tells her that healthy relationships require two functional adults, and that if one partner is investing in their growth and the other refuses, sometimes you leave them behind, not necessarily by ending the relationship, but by refusing to shrink yourself to keep the peace. From there the conversation moves through Terry Real's "good day, bad day" math for mismatched effort, the idea that couples should recalibrate roughly every three years the way you'd see a dentist or a financial advisor, and Zach's own admission that he and his wife Rebecca are technically on their fourth marriage, just to the same person. Melissa shares her own story of a 17-year marriage that ended when she kept growing and her husband didn't, and the two of them sit in how rarely anyone teaches couples to check in on whether they're still aligned. The back half gets into the mechanics: what the Gottman Method actually is (friendship, conflict management, shared meaning) versus Relational Life Therapy, which Zach calls "Relationship 501" for people who need more than tools. Zach also talks openly about his own sobriety, five and a half years in, and why he couldn't hear the truth about his drinking until he was ready to hear it. This is Zach without the therapist's chair, talking about his own marriage's near-misses, and it lands harder because of it. Key Takeaways Two functional adults are the baseline. If one partner is growing and the other refuses to, that's not a fixable math problem, it's a decision point.Sometimes the healthiest thing you can say to a partner is "I'm not coming back over there," while still leaving the door open for them to join you.Terry Real's framework: both partners at their best is a great day. Both at their worst is a bad day. One at their best and one not is just an okay day, and okay might be the best some seasons offer.Relationships benefit from a check-in roughly every three years, the same logic as seeing a dentist or a financial advisor on a schedule rather than waiting for a crisis.About two-thirds of relationship conflicts are perpetual and unsolvable. The goal isn't resolution, it's empathy and workable compromise.The Gottman Method breaks a relationship down into three buckets: friendship quality, how you manage difference, and shared meaning or values.Sobriety, like readiness for any change, can't be forced from the outside. Zach knew alcohol was the problem for years before he was actually ready to quit.The whole secret, per Zach: be a grownup, then do more of what your partner likes and less of what they don't.Guest Info Melissa Vogel hosts The Bomb Life, where she coaches individuals on health, fitness, and relationships. In this episode she works with Zach in reverse, bringing her own coaching experience and her own divorce (after 17 years of marriage) into the conversation. website: https://www.itsmelissavogel.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with Alexandra and Rod Stockwell, married almost 30 years and both trained as physicians. They met in 1993 as first-year medical students, passing paper notes back and forth during lectures, and that early habit of asynchronous, patient communication turns out to have shaped everything that came after. Alexandra is now a relationship and intimacy coach and host of The Intimate Marriage Podcast. Rod still practices medicine and, in his words, is happy to support her work from just outside the spotlight. The conversation moves through the real mechanics of a long marriage rather than the highlight reel. Rod tells the story of what first drew him to Alexandra: not academic standout behavior, but her willingness to notice what everyone else in the lecture hall was too polite to say out loud, like asking a professor to turn the lights back on. From there, they trace how curiosity became their throughline, how personal growth inside a marriage compounds over time, and how a phrase like connection over content changes what a hard conversation actually accomplishes. Rod offers a simple, practical fix for the "heady" partner who struggles to know what a conversation needs from him. Alexandra shares a technique she once found genuinely off putting, literally timing how long she'd speak, and explains why it ended up building more trust and more freedom, not less. What makes this one land is that none of it is theoretical. Alexandra and Rod are open that every insight came from getting it wrong first, sometimes badly, and having their feelings hurt in the process. For listeners who've been together a long time and wonder if the spark is something you either have or don't, this episode makes the case that it's built, deliberately, one honest conversation at a time. Key Takeaways Curiosity doesn't have to fade with familiarity. The early-relationship instinct to ask "what's your favorite vegetable" can be kept alive on purpose, decades in.Being curious about your partner has a side effect: it makes you more curious about yourself, too."Connection over content" means prioritizing how a conversation lands over winning the specific point being discussed.Naming the kind of conversation you're about to have (venting, logistics, brainstorming) before you have it prevents partners from accidentally having two different conversations at once.A technique doesn't have to feel natural, or even comfortable, to work. Alexandra found timing her own emotional sharing "disgusting" at first and kept using it because it built trust.Real intimacy is a form of emotional communication every time, not just during "big" conversations. What's underneath a moment matters as much as what's said.Marriage can function as a vehicle for personal growth, not just a container you maintain, if both people stay oriented toward it that way.The best advice in this episode was hard won. Every tool they share came from a mistake they made and repaired first. Guest Info Alexandra Stockwell, MD: relationship and intimacy coach, host of The Intimate Marriage Podcast. Website: alexandrastockwell.com (book, app, courses, coaching, and podcast available there). Rod Stockwell, MD: practicing physician and Alexandra's husband of nearly 30 years. Not publicly active in the relationship coaching space; reachable through Alexandra's contact page. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Zach sits down with Jim and Kelly, married 30 years, while Jim trains for the Ironman World Championship in Kona and works through his 25th round of chemotherapy. Jim was diagnosed with terminal cancer in April 2024. Rather than pulling back, he set a goal: arrive alive in Kona, finish under 17 hours, promote a book he wrote during treatment, and raise $100,000 for the Ironman Foundation. Zach wants to know how a marriage holds two massive commitments, endurance racing and cancer, without one crowding out the other. The conversation moves through how Jim and Kelly built their life around his training long before the diagnosis, how Kelly's own history (her father died suddenly of a heart attack in the family kitchen) shaped what she wanted from illness and from goodbye, and how Jim reframed a terminal diagnosis into a reason to get up in the morning instead of a reason to despair. Jim lays out a "clean slate" philosophy for resolving conflict, and a theory that couples fall deeply in love early on but only fall widely in love over years, building a base wide enough that nothing can knock it over. Kelly talks about the independence they each brought into the marriage and why that, not merging into one identity, is what makes it work. What lands hardest is Jim's line that cancer can take his body, but not his heart, his mind, or his soul. It is not denial. It is a couple who decided, together, what they were willing to hand over and what they were not. Listeners get a clear-eyed look at what it takes to keep a marriage, and a life, moving forward on your own terms after the ground shifts under you. Key Takeaways Optimism is not a fixed trait. Jim calls it a muscle you have to work daily, like discipline.A terminal diagnosis does not have to mean the end of ambition. Jim's mindset shifted from "why do Ironman" being about the finish line to being about the start line, then about the 400 training sessions nobody sees.Complacency, not conflict, is what erodes a long marriage. Jim names it as the mistake he made over 30 years: not doing or saying the things he once did.The "clean slate" rule: resolve an issue, then let it go completely. No revisiting it a month later.Deep love happens fast. Wide love, the kind that can't be knocked over, only comes from years of showing up.Keeping life normal matters more than most people expect. Jim's oncologist told him and Kelly to resist letting cancer change how people treat him.Independence inside a marriage is not a threat to it. Jim and Kelly both came in with established businesses and identities, and neither has ever told the other "you can't."Forgiving and forgetting are two different acts. Jim says you have to do both, or the resentment eventually surfaces.Guest Info Jim: Endurance athlete and Ironman triathlete for roughly 30 years, retired home inspector (30 years, about 15,000 inspections). Diagnosed with stage 4 terminal cancer in April 2024. Author of Just Keep Tri-ing, written during treatment, with profits going to the Ironman Foundation toward a $100,000 fundraising goal (about $25,000 raised at the time of recording). Training to compete in the Ironman World Championship in Kona, Hawaii, on October 10, 2026. Kelly: Jim's wife of 30 years. Works in real estate at a high level and previously served as a compliance officer for the State of Georgia, managing 85 agents. Links: Just Keep TRI-ING https://amzn.to/3RihdZ4 https://www.instagram.com/stage42025/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.