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In this episode of The Leader's Journey, Trisha Taylor welcomes longtime friend and colleague Chuck DeGroat to discuss his new book, Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age. Together, they explore the importance of character formation in leadership and the ways our past experiences, survival patterns, and the systems around us shape who we become.   Chuck shares why meaningful change begins with slowing down, paying attention to our own behavior, and allowing ourselves to be truly known by others. Their conversation offers a thoughtful look at the ongoing work of becoming emotionally healthy leaders who can influence others without causing harm.   Guest Bio   Chuck DeGroat is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, MI, where he also serves as executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program. He is an author, licensed therapist, church consultant, and spiritual director. He and his wife, Sara, have two daughters.   Conversation Overview Character Formation and the Gap Between Who We Are and Who We Want to Be Recognizing Survival Patterns and Learning From Our Pain The Importance of Being Known by Others Why Leaders and Helpers Need Their Own Formation Ripening, Maturity, and the Dangers of Rushing Leadership Development Letting Go of Image Management and the Need to Appear Virtuous How Systems and Culture Shape Our Character Slowing Down, Paying Attention, and Becoming More Self-Aware Practicing Reflection as Part of Leadership Development   Resources Chuck DeGroat's Website   Chuck's New Book - Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age   Find The Leader's Journey on Youtube

In this episode of The Leader's Journey, Mike and Trisha welcome Barbara Laymon for a conversation about triangles in Bowen family systems theory. They explore how triangles are dynamic relationship patterns that influence families, workplaces, and congregations, often carrying tension from one relationship into another.   Through biblical stories, personal experiences, and examples from organizational life, the conversation examines how family patterns can follow us into other relationships, how our position in a triangle shapes our reactions, and how systems thinking can help us respond with greater maturity.   Conversation Overview Understanding Triangles in Bowen Family Systems Theory How Family Roles and Patterns Carry Into Other Relationships Biblical Examples of Triangles and Sibling Rivalry Emotional Estate Planning and Managing Family Anxiety Changing Our Own Responses Within Relationship Patterns Recognizing Triangles in Workplaces and Congregations Gossip, Exclusion, and the Spread of Anxiety Applying Systems Thinking to Relationships   Resources   https://theleadersjourney.kit.com/triangles-self-reflection   https://www.thebowencenter.org/faculty-bios/barbara-laymon

In this episode of The Leader's Journey, Trisha, Mike, and Kathleen discuss individuality and togetherness through the lens of Bowen family systems theory. They explore how these forces shape how people function within families, churches, organizations, and other groups. The conversation examines the difference between true individuality and simply reacting against a group, how anxiety and pressure influence group behavior, and how leaders can create space for people to bring their own thinking into the system. Conversation Overview Individuality, Togetherness Individualism vs Individuality Reactivity and Group Pressure Anxiety and Systems Getting "On the Same Page" Inviting Individual Thinking Leadership and Responsibility Thinking Outside Your Own Mind Creativity and Flexibility in Groups Resources The Leader's Journey Team Building Exercises Everything Isn't Terrible: Conquer Your Insecurities, Interrupt Your Anxiety and Finally Calm Down True to You: A Therapist's Guide to Stop Pleasing Others and Start Being Yourself The Anxious Overachiever substack Church Leaders Facing Significant Change Program with Edie Lenz

In this episode, Jim and Trisha explore the tension between growth, organizational culture, and human flourishing. They examine how the pace of growth can create burnout, why leaders need to think systemically about the impact of their decisions, and what it might look like to intentionally build organizations around sustainable cultures rather than simply getting bigger.   Conversation Overview Growth and Flourishing Organizational Mental Models Growth and Burnout Culture and Organizational Health The Pace of Growth Church Planting and Growth Leadership and Organizational Health Rethinking Growth   Resources https://theleadersjourney.kit.com/organizational-growth

What happens when physical pain becomes part of a leader's everyday life? In this episode, Trisha talks with Warrick Baker about his journey with chronic pain, the cycle that contributed to his condition, and the lessons he has learned. Together, they explore what it means to listen to pain rather than simply trying to make it disappear, and how alignment, balance, grace, and discernment can shape the way we lead.   Warrick is the youngest of seven siblings from Baton Rouge, LA. He earned a Bachelor of Science from the University of Southern Mississippi and the Master of Arts and Master of Divinity degrees from Houston Graduate School of Theology. He has been a pastor and community leader in Pearland, TX for more than 20 years. Warrick is passionate about encouraging God's people. He is married to Aundrea Baker, and they have four children. He is the owner of Coach's Construction and has been a long-standing Rotarian. Warrick enjoys spending time with his family,  competing as a USA Track and Field Master athlete, and coaching young people in track and field at a national level   Conversation Overview Pain as a Part of Leadership The Cycle of Pain Apathy and Atrophy From Injury to Chronic Condition Pain as a Teacher Breaking the Cycle Alignment and Balance Living Beyond Pain Grace and Discernment in Leadership Resources Warrick at The Leader's Journey The Vicious Pain Cycle:

Leaders are tired. Not all tiredness is the same, though, and understanding what kind of tired we are experiencing can be an important first step toward meaningful rest and self-care. In this conversation, Trisha and therapist Chelsie Sargent explore the different kinds of fatigue leaders experience, from burnout and compassion fatigue to the exhaustion we create for ourselves by overcommitting, ignoring boundaries, and staying constantly "on." Together, they consider what authentic self-care and rest can look like for leaders.   Chelsie Sargent is a Licensed Professional Counselor with a Doctorate of Professional Counseling. She has extensive experience working with individuals, families, teens, and young adults, with a focus on issues including anxiety, depression, trauma, grief, abuse, and anger management. Chelsea is also a Certified Anger Resolution Therapist and has training in the Enneagram and EMDR. Key Takeaways Not All Tiredness Is the Same Burnout, Compassion Fatigue, and "Burn Up" The Fatigue We Create for Ourselves Boundaries and the Window of Tolerance Learning to Turn It Off Getting Unstuck From Other People's Anxiety Treat Yourself vs. Self-Care Caring for Body, Mind, and Soul Making Space for Authentic Rest Resources   http://www.chelsiesargentcounseling.com/

Resilience is often described as the ability to bounce back from adversity, but what if true resilience is about something much deeper? In this episode, Jim sits down with therapist, author, and speaker Chuck DeGroat to explore resilience through the lens of grace, healing, and spiritual formation. Together they discuss why resilience isn't about powering through hardship, but about allowing ourselves to be transformed by it through honest relationships, self-awareness, and the sustaining presence of God.   Dr. Chuck DeGroat is a pastor, therapist, spiritual director, speaker, and author whose work focuses on leadership, spiritual formation, trauma, and emotional health. Through his work, Chuck helps leaders integrate emotional health, faith, and authentic spiritual growth.   Conversation Overview Rethinking what resilience really means Grace as the foundation for lasting resilience The role of community in healing and growth Navigating suffering without losing yourself Spiritual practices that cultivate resilience   Resources & Links   Healing What's Within  When Narcissism Comes to Church  Wholeheartedness  Who You're Becoming - Releasing in October! Chuck's Substack

Parenting has never come with more advice, more experts, or more pressure. But what if becoming a healthier parent has less to do with finding the perfect strategy and more to do with becoming a more grounded person? In this episode, Trisha Taylor is joined by Dr. Michael DeRuyter and Dr. Jenny Brown, the author of The Parenting Paradox,  to discuss the book and explore what family systems theory teaches about raising resilient children. Together they unpack the tension between caring deeply for our children while resisting the urge to over-function, over-protect, or define our success by our children's choices. Whether you're parenting young children, adult children, grandchildren, or simply navigating important relationships, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective on leading with clarity, connection, and thoughtful conviction.   Dr. Jenny Brown is a highly respected family therapist, educator and founder of the Parent Hope Project, a social enterprise dedicated to improving children's wellbeing by strengthening parents. Drawing on decades of clinical practice with the Family Systems Institute, Jenny supports parents, educators and clinicians to understand family dynamics and make meaningful, lasting change. She is the author of The Parenting Paradox and Growing Yourself Up about adult development and relationships. She is also the host of the Parent Hope podcast.    Dr. Michael DeRuyter is a pastor, coach and consultant with The Leader's Journey. He has completed four years of postgraduate study at the Bowen Center for the Study of the Family, served as a research fellow studying family systems, and earned a certificate in systems thinking from Cornell University. Mike holds a Doctor of Ministry from Fuller Theological Seminary and has spent more than 15 years helping leaders, parents, and organizations apply Bowen Family Systems Theory to foster greater spiritual, emotional, and relational maturity.   Conversation Overview   -Parenting Begins with Your Own Growth -Define Your Job Description -Resist Anxiety, Not Connection -Parenting and Technology -Parenting in an Age of Endless Advice -Preparing Children for Life Beyond You   Resources Parent Hope Project   The Parenting Paradox: Loving Our Children by Giving Them Space to Grow - Jenny Brown     Growing Yourself Up, 2nd Edition: How to bring your best to all of life's relationships - Jenny Brown   Bowen family systems theory in Christian ministry: Grappling with Theory and its Application Through a Biblical Lens - Jenny Brown, Lauren Errington   The Anxious Generation -  Jonathan Haidt

In the final installment of this series on healthy organizational systems, Trisha and Mac unpack the last three practices from Peter Steinke's work on strengthening an organization's "immune system." Together they explore why healthy leaders focus on process along with content, the entire system, not just symptoms, and direction, not just current condition. Through stories from ministry and organizational leadership, they show how these shifts help leaders move beyond blame, navigate discouragement, and create lasting health instead of chasing quick fixes. Conversation Overview Look Beyond Symptoms Avoid the Trap of Blame Treat Symptoms Like Smoke Alarms Focus on Direction More Than Condition Stay the Course Through Discouragement Lead with Conviction, Not Anxiety Practice Before You Need It Resources How Your Church Family Works - Peter Steinke Healthy Congregations - Peter Steinke Strengthening Your Leadership Immune System - Episode One Growing Through Challenge Over Comfort - Episode Two Find Us On YouTube

Growth rarely happens in comfort. In this episode, Trisha and Mac continue their discussion of Peter Steinke's framework for healthy leadership and organizations by exploring the tension between comfort and challenge. They examine why leaders often rush to relieve discomfort, fix problems, or protect people from struggle, and how those instincts can actually undermine growth. Through practical examples from leadership, ministry, parenting, coaching, and personal development, they discuss how resilience is built when leaders create environments where people can stretch, struggle, and mature rather than simply stay comfortable.   Conversation Overview   Development Requires Struggle Over-Functioning Creates Under-Functioning Challenge Builds Capacity Comfort Can Become a Trap Questions Create Growth Tension Is Necessary for Transformation Move Toward Difficult Conversations Growth Has a Cost Comfort and Compassion Still Matter Resources   How Your Church Family Works – Peter Steinke Kathleen Smith - The Anxious Overacheiver

In this episode, Trisha and Mac begin their series on leadership responses to build health by exploring two foundational practices for leadership: focusing on self rather than others, and choosing integrity over unity. Together, they unpack how anxiety pushes leaders to become reactive, emotionally fused, and overly focused on managing other people's responses. They discuss the hard work of clarifying guiding principles, staying grounded in moments of tension, and leading from conviction instead of fear. Conversation Overview   "Focus on self, not others" is foundational in emotionally healthy leadership How leaders lose themselves when other people's reactions become the compass Why integrity is not the same thing as selfishness The importance of guiding principles during high-anxiety moments How Jesus modeled clarity, boundaries, and differentiated leadership Healthy systems need both individuality and connection The relationship between integrity, boundaries, and emotional maturity How anxiety spreads through systems — and how leaders can lower it instead of amplifying it   Resources   How Your Church Family Works - Peter Steinke Kathleen Smith Bowen Family Systems Edwin Friedman - A Failure of Nerve

Do we love people by tolerating their terrible behavior? How do we stop demonizing people who get in our way? What about when I am the one who is sabotaging change? In our conversation with Steve Cuss, author of Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs, we look at the reality of sabotage in the process of leading change. Because anxiety spreads in a group and because typically the most anxious person in the room holds the most power, managing ourselves in the face of sabotage is always the key to leadership survival. We hope you'll listen in.   Conversation Overview Anxiety: even more contagious than COVID Does love mean I have to tolerate people's terrible behavior? How do I stop demonizing people who get in my way? Advantages of systems theory for leadership Working our way out of double binds Managing ourselves in triangles (and don't miss Steve's great definition of a triangle!)   About Steve Steve Cuss is a multi-talented leader and also the pastor at Discovery Christian Church in Broomfield, CO. Steve's Twitter feed is gold. Follow him @stevecusswords You can also check out everything he's doing, including his podcast, at www.stevecusswords.com His book is Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs.   Also mentioned on the podcast: Generation to Generation by Edwin Friedman The Family Crucible by Augustus Napier and Carl Whitaker

In this episode, Trisha and Nate talk about how to get the most out of a coaching relationship. They explore what makes coaching effective, why it requires active participation, and how clients can show up in ways that lead to real growth. From setting the agenda to asking better questions, they offer practical insights for both new and experienced coaching clients.   Conversation Overview Coaching Requires Active Participation Curiosity Over Expertise Focus on Your Own Actions Coaching is a Conversation Finding Value in Required Coaching   Resources   The Leader's Journey Podcast: Being Coachable    Nate Pyle - The Leader's Journey

*This episode was originally published in July, 2023.  In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Chuck DeGroat to talk about the natural reactivity we have to anxiety. We've talked a lot about fight and flight, conflict and distancing, but we don't always add two other instinctive reactions: freeze and fawn.  We may aspire to peace-making but we often settle for peace keeping and people-pleasing. When we can see our fawn response, we can stop hiding and courageously choose genuine connection instead. Conversation Overview:  Chuck's tweet that inspired this conversation How does the fawn response mimic healthy connection while also undermining it? How does the fawn response show up in leadership? How do we connect the fawn response to anxiety? What might we do instead of fawning? References:  Link to Chuck's Tweet Chuck Degroat Website https://twitter.com/chuckdegroat @chuckdegroat on Threads Janina Fisher  The Fifth Discipline: The art and practice of the learning organization Healing Developmental Trauma: How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable

Asking a question seems simple, but it's often where communication breaks down. In this episode, Trisha focuses on how the way we ask questions shapes the responses we get, the relationships we build, and the outcomes we experience. She explores the difference between genuine curiosity and hidden agendas, how poorly formed questions can create confusion or defensiveness, and what it looks like to ask questions that invite clarity, trust, and deeper understanding in real-life situations.   Conversation Overview Why asking questions is harder than it seems The difference between curiosity and control in questions How assumptions shape the questions we ask The impact of tone, timing, and intent Questions that open vs. questions that shut down conversation Practicing better questions in everyday leadership and relationships Resources   The Coaching Habit: Say Less, Ask More and Change the Way You Lead Forever by Michael Bungay Stanier   Change Your Questions Change Your Life: 12 Powerful Tools for Leadership, Coaching and Life by Marilee Adams, PhD   Find Us on YouTube   Explore the Series:    Episode One  - How to Have a Conversation Episode Two - Moving Past the Memo - Conversations in Organizations Episode Three - When Talking Isn't Enough