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Generous Authority: The Art of Gathering at Forest School This episode, I’ve read a book and Wem’s job is to poke holes in it. The book is Priya Parker’s The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters, and parts of it had me nodding along while other parts felt wildly wrong for forest school. We work through it chapter by chapter, testing each idea against our own sessions and disagreeing where we need to. The first thing that grabbed me was the idea of protecting the opening moment of a gathering instead of spending it on admin. I tried it at a recent CPD day with the Suffolk FSA group, giving out practical information as people arrived so the opening could hold one thing only. Wem rightly points out that for lots of people, knowing where the loos are is part of feeling safe, so the logistics still matter. They just don’t have to come first. We also cover: Asking what’s different after a gathering, instead of why we’re meeting, and the baby shower example from the bookWhy I’ve felt nervous about asking my home ed group why they come, and what that nervousness says about egoBeing honest with young people that this is also a job that pays the billsExcluding with purpose and the risks of over-inclusion, plus Wem’s alternative: not shutting the door, just choosing where you extend the invitationHow venues and physical positioning carry hierarchy with them, from boardrooms to standing over two children asking them to “solve it themselves”The chill host, the hosting vacuum it creates, and what happens when a couple of boisterous voices take over a circleGenerous and ungenerous authority, and a heated disagreement about a bride enforcing her seating planCompeting needs versus needs that can sit side by side, including the perennial “they just talk about Minecraft in the hammock” debateHow differently all of this sits when attendance is optional, mandatory, or somewhere in the awkward middleHosting starting the moment people hear about an event, priming a CPD group through a WhatsApp challenge, and why a session begins the moment the last one endsBuilding in multiple endings so people can leave without guilt, and the small closing ritual we’ve started with staff after the children go homePlus, before all that: can robins see magnetic fields, and are sharks really older than trees? Supporting the podcast The Forest School Podcast has been running for years now, and it’s free for everyone. We don’t offer bonus content or extras on Patreon, so supporting us is simply a way of helping the show keep going. Contributions from as little as £2 a month cover our running costs and buy the books we read and share with you all, including this one. We’re genuinely grateful to everyone who chooses to, and is able to, chip in. patreon.com/TheForestSchoolPodcast

Declarative language and empathy sit at the heart of how we support behaviour at Children of the Forest. Rather than issuing commands, we describe what we notice and help people see the effect their actions have on those around them. Most of the time, that’s enough to shift things. There have been a few times, with different groups, where I’ve run into the same wall. The approach works best when someone is visibly affected. What about when a child is talking unkindly about a person who isn’t there? Or when the person being discussed is unaware, or simply unbothered? If they’re happy either way, the drive to change behaviour out of care for them disappears. This is a professional discussion in the truest sense. We take one idea and turn it over, look at it from different angles, throw “what if” scenarios at each other and push back where we disagree. We don’t come away with a tidy solution, and that’s deliberate. The value is in extending our own thinking, and hopefully yours. In this episode we explore: Why empathy-based behaviour support depends on a visible impact, and what happens when there isn’t oneGossip, venting and “isn’t that person annoying” as a normal part of human social lifeHow to make room for frustration without endorsing unkindnessEncouraging empathetic conversation without imposing our own will or relying on authorityThe tension between letting group dynamics unfold naturally and our duty of care for the social and emotional wellbeing of everyone in our sessionsWhat being Ofsted registered and holding safeguarding roles asks of us in these momentsSupporting the podcast The Forest School Podcast has been running for years now, and it’s free for everyone. We don’t offer bonus content or extras on Patreon, so supporting us is simply a way of helping the show keep going. Contributions from as little as £2 a month cover our running costs and buy the books we read and share with you all. We’re genuinely grateful to everyone who chooses to, and is able to, chip in. patreon.com/TheForestSchoolPodcast

Wem and I get into a concept neither of us had a name for until this week: inessential weirdness. It comes from a video by organisational psychologist Pippi Kessler, and once you've got the term you start seeing it everywhere. We open with my Ofsted saga (someone reported me to Ofsted over a cropped screenshot of me singing with a puppet, long story, I passed with zero concerns), then get into the real conversation. Pippi's video looks at activist groups and asks what actually alienates working class people from community spaces. The answer isn't posh venues or fancy food, it's things like unsalted vegan potluck dishes and unexplained rituals that have nothing to do with why people showed up. We spend the rest of the episode pulling that idea apart and applying it to forest school and CPD spaces. Where's the line between weird that's essential to what we do and weird that's just unexamined habit? We talk about whimsical go-arounds, breathwork, sit spots, hierarchy, virtue signalling, agency, and why "can you explain why we're doing this" is the best test for whether something belongs. We also get into the class dimension of all this, how much time, money and prior exposure it takes to feel comfortable with certain kinds of "weird," and why that matters if you actually want your sessions to be open to people outside your existing community. Not an argument against weirdness. We love weird. It's an argument for knowing why you're doing it. Watch the video that started this conversation:Pippi Kessler, "Inessential Weirdness" — https://www.instagram.com/p/DbWVC6rPBaL/ More on Pippi's work:https://www.pippikessler.org/

In this episode, Wem and I chatted about feedback from previous episodes, preparing for incoming winter seasons, and whether it's possible to 'procrastinate' at Forest School. www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast to support us www.children-of-the-forest.com for CPD weekends and more!

This week Wem and I get into something that's been rumbling through forest school Facebook groups all summer: fires, heatwaves, drought, and where individual choice ends and collective responsibility begins. It started with a post about forest school leaders lighting fires during the current UK drought, and the pile of comments underneath it. Some people were arguing it's down to individual practitioners, their training and their risk benefit assessments. Others were pointing at local fire services actively fighting wildfires and asking whether "I've done my RBA" is really enough justification right now. We try to pull that apart properly rather than picking a side. Along the way we talk about the headline game, a tool I use for weighing up risky decisions, and how it applies just as well to cancelling a session as it does to lighting a fire. We get into whether forest school is a community or a collection of individuals doing their own thing, my ongoing argument against the mycelial network metaphor and my pitch for lichen instead, and where the line sits between influencing someone's practice and controlling it. We finish on training and accrediting bodies, what a climate-literate Forest School Leader Level 3 might actually need to cover, and how we might get better at critiquing each other's practice without it turning into a pile-on. Forest School Association, the UK's professional body for Forest School, which runs the Recognised Provider and Endorsed Trainer schemes we talk about: forestschoolassociation.org The Met Office Fire Severity Index, the tool fire services use to rate wildfire risk and which prompted our "what should Level 3 training actually cover" tangent: metoffice.gov.uk/services/government/environmental-hazard-resilience/fire-severity-index The Beaufort scale, referenced as the wind equivalent of the fire index conversationhttps://www.rmets.org/metmatters/beaufort-wind-scale Links and references mentioned

This week I'm joined by Ellie J, known online as Clown Daddy. I first came across her work online and knew straight away that forest school leaders and outdoor educators would get something out of hearing how she thinks about performance, status and play. Ellie trained as an actress at NYU before studying at the famous L'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq in Paris, sometimes called clown school even though it teaches far more than that. She now works as an actress, clown and puppeteer, blending all three into what she calls Clown Daddy, and her current show is a one woman version of Hamlet built entirely around the idea that the rest of the cast simply doesn't turn up. We talk about what happens when you take something as wordy and prescriptive as Shakespeare and hand it over to clowning instead. From there the conversation opens out into the stuff I really wanted to get into: status and hierarchy, the courage it takes to fail in front of a group, and why safety has to come before play, not the other way round. Ellie draws a brilliant distinction between offering someone a single kernel of popcorn and tipping the whole bucket over their head, and it maps almost exactly onto how I think about pushing kids gently rather than shocking them into growth. We also get into the darker side of performance training, the Philippe Gaulier school of "you are a piece of crap on my boot" teaching, and whether that culture still has a place anywhere. Ellie's answer is more generous than I expected. There's a good stretch on consent in performance, on reading a room without ever handing someone a form to fill in, and on why she doesn't record her workshops or shows. And we finish on nature, puppetry, and pine needle confetti, which I am now determined to actually make. Clown Daddy's website: clown-daddy.com Clown Daddy Presents (shows, workshops and coaching): clowndaddypresents.com Instagram: @clowndaddypresents L'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq, Paris (the "Lecoq school" Ellie trained at) Michael Chekhov, actor and teacher referenced for his work on embodiment and imagination Philippe Gaulier, the clowning teacher whose famously brutal teaching style we discuss Ellie J, also known as Clown Daddy, is an actress turned clown and puppeteer based in the Catskills. Trained at NYU Tisch and Lecoq in Paris, her work blends physical comedy, puppetry and vaudevillian slapstick with real emotional depth. Her current show, a solo take on Hamlet, has been touring venues in New York State. Links mentionedAbout Clown Daddy

This week, Wem and I chatted about Boundary setting and picked through Kami Orange's book of boundary scripts and frameworks!

What if the secret to better behaviour support in forest school isn't focusing on the child at all? Lewis and Wem are back for a wide-ranging, woodland-based chat that opens with lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven before diving into some genuinely rich territory: what does it actually mean to take an intraaction-based approach to behaviour? How do you move away from old-school "fix the child" thinking without sliding into permissiveness? And what can a day of interpretive dance, collective poetry, and drama research in Bristol teach us about forest school pedagogy? Plus: squirrels, rabbits round the fire pit, the Southwest FSA Gathering, tenon cutters, and Wem's mysterious single-name workshop listing at the national conference. Chapter Titles and Timestamps: 0:00 - Lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven 2:00 - Wearing messy, child-made things as a badge of honour 4:29 - Following up on Dr Wendy Russell: intraaction and behaviour support 6:54 - Old-school behaviour management vs. shifting what you can actually control 8:50 - The soup of a person: inner worlds, neuroplasticity, and fixed mindset language 14:20 - Persistent offering and not closing doors too early 17:53 - Is intraaction-based behaviour support just permissive? 20:02 - The communal cooking example: setting people up to succeed 22:27 - How loudly does John's sadness exist? On heterarchy and roles 26:07 - The Tangled Roots of Creative Research and Social Justice, Bristol 33:42 - The Conference of Trees and the value of cross-disciplinary spaces 35:49 - Space-setting intentions vs. ground rules: lessons from a research day 40:12 - The Southwest FSA Gathering at Hateford Woods 41:10 - Tenon cutters, turmeric dyeing, and beatboxing 44:29 - National conference plans, and Wem's workshop: Looking at Play Playfully 46:45 - Beech overhang, approaching rain, and goodbye Supportive Elements: Listen back to the episode with Dr Wendy Russell on play, posthumanism, and spatial justice for children, which this conversation directly follows on from. We also reference our previous episode on Nonviolent Communication. Find everything at www.children-of-the-forest.com. Support the show from around £2/month at www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast , and leave us a voice message via the SpeakPipe link on the website.

This one is special. Wem and I got to sit down with Dr Wendy Russell, independent play researcher, senior research fellow at the University of Gloucestershire, and 50 years into a career that started on an adventure playground apprenticeship in the 1970s. I came away from this conversation needing to go for a long walk and think about everything. The first half covers Wendy's work on spatial justice for children, the politics of public space, and what it would actually mean to have a statutory play sufficiency duty in England. We talk about what play sufficiency means in practice, why Wales has led the way, and why politicians keep defaulting to playgrounds when the picture is so much bigger than that. The second half goes deeper, into the relational capability approach to playing and being well that Wendy has developed with Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil of Ludicology. Drawing on Henri Lefebvre's production of space, Karen Barad's concept of intra-action, and the relational turn across academic disciplines, Wendy patiently walked Wem and me through a genuinely paradigm-shifting way of thinking about children, play, agency and wellbeing. By the end, the playwork principles themselves come under scrutiny. The idea of play as "freely chosen and personally directed" gets unpicked in a way that I'm still sitting with. Strap in. Press rewind as many times as you need. See you on the other side. In this episode How Wendy moved from adventure playground apprentice to academic researcher across 50 years in play and playwork The politics of space and what spatial justice for children actually means Why falling road casualty statistics for children hide a much more troubling story Play sufficiency as a principle, what it is, what Wales has done with it, and why England feels like it's at a genuine policy moment right now The tension between play's intrinsic value and what funders and politicians actually want to measure Why post-occupancy evaluation of housing developments almost never happens, and what Diana Bournat's research tells us when it does How repositioning a ball games area changes the way girls move across an entire space The relational capability approach to playing and being well, resources, opportunities, and the conditions that allow children to play The relational turn across academic disciplines and what it means to move away from the individual, atomised child Karen Barad's concept of intra-action and why "interaction" doesn't quite capture it What all of this means for forest school practice, the wind, the branch, the ants, and us Following an object across a play session as a practitioner reflective tool (I am absolutely trying this) Why "freely chosen and personally directed" is a useful definition and also, it turns out, a deeply adult-centric one Links and resources Wendy Russell's publications, University of Gloucestershire research repository (search "Wendy Russell Gloucestershire") or via her LinkedIn profile [add link] Playing and Being Well, the Play Wales commissioned research review: playwales.org.uk Play Wales: playwales.org.uk Play England: playengland.org.uk Ludicology, Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil: ludicology.com UNCRC General Comment 17 on Article 31, children's right to play Henri Lefebvre, The Production of Space Karen Barad, concept of intra-action Tim Gill, children's independent mobility and road space design: timgill.net Coming up at Children of the Forest Pedagogy Immersion Weekend, 15 and 16 August 2026, Devon. If you're already qualified and you want to have the kind of conversation we've just had, this is the place. Tickets and nearby accommodation listings at children-of-the-forest.com Level 3 Forest School Leader Training, Sunday cohort and intensive holiday block formats. Details and booking on the website. Send us a voice note Got thoughts on this episode? There's a button on the website where you can record us a voice note directly from your phone. We genuinely love getting them.

In this podcast, Nik Elvy, an artist, outdoor educator, and researcher, shares insights on neo-enclosure, folk traditions, and the impact of history on contemporary society. We explored themes of land access, cultural heritage, and social justice, offering a deep dive into how history and folklore shape our present and future. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes 01:18 Nick Elvie's Background and Recent Work 03:01 Understanding Neo-Enclosure: Definitions and Examples 04:59 Green Spaces, Parking, and Neo-Enclosure 06:48 Community Spaces and Exclusion 09:01 Meeting with the Secretary of State on Poverty 11:55 Poverty, Epigenetics, and Family History 15:56 Historical Land Rights and Enclosure Movements 20:02 Folklore, Folk Practices, and Cultural Heritage 29:54 The Folk Renaissance and Cultural Appropriation 39:57 Community Engagement and Folk Traditions 50:05 Contemporary Challenges: Gentrification and Cultural Loss 57:58 The Role of Outdoor Education and Land Access 01:00:00 Closing Remarks and Resources Folklorican on Substack - https://folklorican.substack.com/ Folkloric on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/folkloric

Unlocking the Secrets of Soil: An Interview with Ellen Fay from the Sustainable Soils Alliance Discover the fascinating world beneath our feet with Ellen Fay, a passionate advocate for soil health and biodiversity. In this episode, we delve into what soil really is, why it's vital for our planet, and how we can all contribute to its preservation. Main Topics: The fundamental composition and diversity of soil across different landscapes The significance of soil as a living ecosystem and its role in climate change mitigation Threats to soil health including erosion, contamination, compaction, and land use Practical ways for schools and individuals to support soil conservation The importance of policy and research gaps in soil protection efforts Key Insights: Soil is a complex living ecosystem made up of minerals, organic matter, water, air, and a vast diversity of microorganisms and fauna. There are over 750 recognized soil types in the UK, each requiring specific management practices. Soil degradation poses significant threats to biodiversity, water management, and climate regulation. Protecting leaf litter, avoiding soil compaction, and understanding local soil types are critical practices for environmental stewardship. National soil monitoring and policies need nurturing to safeguard soil for future generations. Small everyday actions, such as avoiding peat and engaging kids in soil exploration, can make a substantial impact. Timestamps: 00:44 - Introduction to Ellen Fay and her journey into soil advocacy 01:33 - The importance of soil knowledge and the role of the Sustainable Soils Alliance 05:23 - Simplified explanation of what soil is and its components 09:36 - Diversity of soil types across the UK and their formation 12:53 - How ancient woodland soils differ and why they are slow to recover 15:00 - The debate over leaf litter and soil layers in forests 17:31 - The vulnerability of soils and threats from land use and construction 21:15 - The impact of soil compaction and how to remediate it 24:52 - The ecosystem functions of soil and its importance for water and carbon storage 29:52 - Current national initiatives and policies for soil protection 32:18 - Practical actions individuals and schools can take to promote soil health 40:45 - The potential impacts of using woodchip on pathways and soil protection 42:48 - Final advice on making informed decisions to safeguard soil Resources & Links: Sustainable Soils Alliance UK Soil Map & Data Book: "Teaming with Microbes" by Jeff Lowenfels Research on Soil Biodiversity Understanding Soil Erosion and Conservation Connect with Ellen Fay: LinkedIn Twitter Website Additional notes: Ellen emphasises the crucial role of education, policy reform, and everyday actions in preserving soil. Engaging children in soil ecology — through activities like wormeries and plant growth experiments — fosters early appreciation and stewardship of this vital resource.

We recorded this one outside in the sunshine, which felt almost unreasonably good. Wem and I had a lot to catch up on and approximately no plan for how to do it. This is what came out.Wem started with a holiday debrief from the Picos de Europa in northern Spain. A campervan, the mountains, storks nesting on telegraph poles, vultures, a scops owl that everyone else in the vicinity mistook for a car alarm, and a brief but passionate argument for why campervans are the best possible holiday format for families who find transitions hard. There is also a detour into the biggest swing in Spain and a childhood memory of Wem's involving shoes, fences, and wet morning grass that I will not spoil.Then I had some news to share. The woodland is growing. I have agreed a price on a flat, bluebell-filled acre right next to the existing site, which takes Children of the Forest from three acres of north-west-facing hill to over four acres, with open canopy, big old oaks, and a completely different feel to everything I have worked in for the last decade. Ten years to the month, as it happens. We talk about what that kind of change feels like when you have been going through a flat patch, and why Looby McNamara's Cultural Emergence design web has come back off the shelf to help me think through what comes next.Wem also gives a PhD update. Coming to the end of year one, with a redrafted research proposal about play at forest school in progress. We have a really honest conversation about what it feels like to step back into being a beginner when you have spent years being experienced in your field, about research ethics and children, who actually benefits from data, and what genuinely participatory research can look like when children are co-creators rather than subjects.And then we both get a bit ranty, in the best way, about AI-generated event posters, what folk art actually is, the difference between collecting skills and collecting outputs, and why a badly made Word document flyer tells you more about an event and the person running it than any AI image ever will. The Lost Folk gets a mention. So does an accordion Wem has apparently acquired. There is also a wren on a stump that derails everything completely for about two minutes and I have no regrets about that.References from this episode: Cultural Emergence by Looby McNamara, The Lost Folk, and the Bulworthy Project rewilding estate, where white storks are now nesting in the UK.

This episode explores the realities of forest school leadership, challenging idealized expectations with authentic experiences. Hosts Wem and Lewis share insights on community building, industry myths, and the importance of authenticity in outdoor education. keywords forest school, outdoor education, community building, training realities, outdoor leadership, nature-based learning key topics Myths vs. reality of forest school training Community building and relationship management Flexibility and adaptability in outdoor education Chapters 00:00 The Long-Tailed Tit's Nest Discovery 05:28 Springtime Adventures and Nature's Bounty 06:34 The Reality of Forest School Training 11:45 Expectations vs. Reality in Outdoor Education 19:48 The Challenges of Flexibility in Outdoor Settings 25:57 Nature Bypassing and the Business of Outdoor Education 31:58 Navigating the Business Side of Forest School 34:24 Navigating Code Switching in Education 37:25 The Journey of Continuous Learning 40:35 Community Holding Beyond the Classroom 45:23 Creating a Homely Outdoor Environment 50:24 The Punk Spirit of Forest School 57:18 The Future of Community-Funded Education 59:22 Pod Fart.mp4 resources Forest School Association - https://forestschoolassociation.org/ Nests by Susan Ogilvie - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nests-Susan-Ogilvie/dp/XXXXXX Ofsted - https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ofsted

This episode explores the fascinating world of loose parts in outdoor play, focusing on natural resources like trees, seeds, and bark. Discover criteria for selecting the best loose parts, the importance of seasonality, and creative ideas for outdoor activities. loose parts, outdoor play, natural resources, forest school, foraging, play ideas, nature-based learning key topics Criteria for selecting loose parts Seasonality and availability of resources Creative uses of natural materials in play Guide to Loose Parts in Outdoor Play How to Choose the Best Natural Loose Parts for Play Chapters 00:00 Echidna's Unique Anatomy 03:36 Exploring Loose Parts Play 06:35 Criteria for Loose Parts 09:32 The Role of Volume and Rarity 12:41 Malleability and Versatility in Loose Parts 15:35 Sensory Experiences with Loose Parts 18:36 Accessibility and Processing of Loose Parts 21:33 The Value of Foraging for Loose Parts 25:00 The Value of Foraging in Outdoor Play 27:38 Functions of Loose Parts in Play 30:17 Exploring the Best Loose Parts for Play 33:13 The Debate on Non-Native Loose Parts 37:14 The Role of Bark and Heavy Loose Parts 40:37 Choosing the Right Materials for Den Building 42:34 Dreaming Up the Perfect Mud Kitchen 48:27 The Ecological Impact of Using Loose Parts 51:41 Pod Sheep.mp4 resources No Such Thing As A Fish Podcast - https://www.nosuchthingasafish.com/ Scientists unravel the mystery of echidna's bizarre four-headed penis - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00145-4 Forest School Resources - https://www.forestschool.co.uk/ Gum Trees and Bark Resources - https://www.britannica.com/plant/gum-tree Conker Game and History - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conkers

Keywords weather, play, philosophy, achievement, agency, creativity, metrics, education, value capture, qualitative assessment Summary In this conversation, Lewis and Wem explore various themes surrounding play, philosophy, and the impact of metrics on society. They discuss the importance of play in fostering creativity and social connections, the differences between striving and achievement players, and the role of constraints in enhancing creativity. The conversation also delves into the concept of value capture, the influence of technology on perception, and the need for qualitative assessments in education. They conclude by reflecting on the importance of process over product and the future of education in relation to play. Takeaways Mud everywhere! The weather can be deceiving. Books can deeply engage us. Play has philosophical implications. Striving players focus on the process. Constraints can enhance creativity. Value capture influences our perceptions. Metrics can simplify complex ideas. Education often prioritizes quantifiable data. The process of play is more important than the outcome. Titles Exploring the Mud: Weather and Play The Philosophy of Play and Learning sound bites "There's mud everywhere!" "This book is amazing!" "The process is beautiful!" Chapters 00:00 The Muddy Reality of Weather 08:16 Exploring the Depths of Play and Philosophy 11:08 Understanding Player Mindsets: Achievement vs. Striving 14:22 Facilitating Play: Agency and Autonomy in Games 17:24 The Role of Games in Social Dynamics 20:15 Process Beauty in Games: The Art of Overcoming Obstacles 23:06 The Purpose vs. Goal in Play: Social Connection Over Competition 37:08 The Sensual Act of Information Management 40:21 Nature Connection and Purpose 43:35 Metrics, Value Capture, and Scoring Systems 50:16 The Influence of Technology on Perception 56:47 The Four Horsemen of Value Capture 01:05:55 The Balance of Quantitative and Qualitative Metrics 01:10:41 Exploring Pedagogies and Their Metrics