Advertise on podcast: The 13th Floor

48 Free Episodes, Happy Halloween! And thanks so much to all our patrons who've supported us. As we haven't used Patreon in some time making these public for everyone this Halloween just felt appropriate. Thanks so much and Keep it Strange!   https://www.patreon.com/13thfloor

James of The Thirteenth Floor talks with Danielle, a gamified keynote speaker, AI developer, and fractional CMO who is also a longtime horror-game fan. They compare favorite horror and story-driven games, explore how play can teach strategy and help build brands, and discuss why indie developers may be driving a creative revival in horror gaming. keywordshorror games, indie horror games, gamification, video game strategy, horror gaming industry, Resident Evil Requiem, Silent Hill, South of Midnight, indie game development key topics Danielle describes her horror-game tastes: psychological thrills, gore, whimsy, strategy, and mythical elements. They discuss Resident Evil Requiem’s balance of action and horror through alternating character chapters, and Danielle’s mixed response to Silent Hill. Danielle praises South of Midnight for its Southern Gothic atmosphere, soundtrack, spiritual themes, and story. She traces her early gaming memories to Doom and describes how horror-game preferences vary across generations in her family. Danielle says her six-year-old learned colors and numbers through Uno, and frames play as a way to teach strategy and “level up in life.” She introduces The Playbook, her prompt journal that uses RPG-style character maps and skill trees to help build a brand. The conversation considers indie horror’s creative momentum, public-domain characters, and the appeal of fresh ideas over established formulas. Danielle shares a parent’s perspective on young people’s creativity and game development, while both speakers consider AI and industry change. guest nameDanielle key frameworks RPG-style character maps and skill trees for brand building in The Playbook Using games and tabletop play to teach strategy and “level up in life” action items Sound Bites "gaming is a form of exercise for them." "the little indie that could" "We need new ideas. We need new blood." Danielle's Book: Here Chapters 00:00Meet Danielle: gamified speaker and horror-game fan 02:36Silent Hill’s atmosphere and a slower storyline 06:11Danielle’s horror-game recipe: whimsy, thrills, and gore 07:07From Doom to different generations of horror players 09:36Using games to teach strategy and life skills 10:37The Playbook: building a brand with RPG mechanics 11:32How indie developers are reshaping horror gaming 14:28Public-domain characters and fresh creative blood 16:50New ideas, senior developers, and AI in gaming 18:23A possible horror-game renaissance

Defense of Demons explains why the word “demon” has carried meanings far beyond the modern image of a purely evil spirit. The host contrasts the speaker’s account of Semitic traditions and Greek-derived terminology with examples from ancient and Asian religions, arguing for a more culturally nuanced view of demons and inspiration. keywordsmeaning of demons, demon etymology, ancient mythology, religious history, demonology, cultural beliefs, inspiration and creativity key topics Why the host looks below the camera and considers placing a visual cue above the lens. The host frames the episode as a defense of demons, challenging the common Western association with absolute evil. The speaker distinguishes the modern idea of a demon from the Semitic term he renders as “divik,” describing it as linked to opposed or competing deities as well as possession traditions. Baal Zebub is discussed as a deity whose name the host interprets as “Lord of the Flies,” later associated with the devil. Pazuzu is presented as a protective figure associated with infants in older traditions, in contrast to his portrayal in The Exorcist. The host connects the Greek-derived word “demon” with “genius,” describing an ancient concept of inspiration, guidance, or a muse-like influence. Creative insight, dreams, and songwriting are offered as examples of experiences ancient people might attribute to a demon. The discussion broadens to Hindu devas, Norse traditions, and beings such as oni and yokai, emphasizing that roles and meanings vary across cultures. takeaways “demons are they exist in every culture just about, but they vary in nature tremendously.” “in the West, particularly in the United States, particularly in Protestant circles, when people hear demon, they think of personified evil.” “The reason why they're called that is because they exist and they're considered sort of competition.” “Pazuzu was actually the guy who guarded Sumerian women against SIDS and other, you know, infant problems.” “demon and genius have the same etymological origin.” “your demon, which was kind of more like a guardian angel or a muse figure, had inspired them.” “where does insight come from?” “The part of you that's so deep, so far away from your conscious mind, from your cognition, that it almost feels like a foreign entity.” “they're not inherently evil.” “demon are not the same thing.” key frameworks The speaker’s contrast between Semitic “divik” and the Greek-derived concept of “demon” Demon as a muse-like or genius-associated source of inspiration action items Study demon traditions across cultures rather than relying only on modern horror portrayals. Consider how different cultures explain inspiration, insight, and creative experiences. Sound Bites "This is a defense of demons." "where do songs come from?" "they're not inherently evil."

Host James York welcomes Fay to share stories from Octagon Hall, a historic house in Simpson County, Kentucky, near Bowling Green. Against its Civil War history, Alix recounts reports of a ghost girl, a black mist, a shadow figure, a closet that seemed to latch by itself, and a wounded soldier apparition. keywordsOctagon Hall, Kentucky ghosts, Simpson County, Civil War hauntings, paranormal stories, Mary Elizabeth ghost key topics Fay sets the scene at Octagon Hall, an octagonal house in Simpson County near Bowling Green, built during the Civil War era. The region shifted between Union and Confederate control, and the house was reportedly used as a hospital during the war. Caretaker Billy Bird shared stories of Mary Elizabeth, a ghost girl he said he saw and heard around the property. Fay recalls hearing EVPs at the house, including one that Billy described as Spanish-language audio. On a later visit, she saw a swirling black mist on the stairs and felt it seemed to notice her; she later saw a photograph of a similar shape in the same room. During a candlelit tour, Fay saw a solid-black, man-shaped figure beside a visitor, who appeared to react to it too. A woman working a Halloween haunted-house event said an unseen force shut and latched her closet door for roughly 30 seconds to a minute. A costumed state trooper portraying a wounded soldier said he saw and heard another soldier appear and ask him for help. Fay and host James York consider whether the reported activity suggests conscious spirits or a replay of past events. takeaways “as soon as you pull onto the property, you feel it.” “it felt like it saw me.” “it felt like making eye contact with somebody.” “They locked me in the closet.” “He said it was everything he could do to stand there.” “I was like, Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.” key frameworks James York considers the idea that ghost activity could be “a dent in time” or a “memory of a place,” contrasting that with spirits acting consciously. Sound Bites "I see something standing next to him." "Some it looked like a man, but it wasn't." "They locked me in the closet." Chapters 00:00 Fay introduces Octagon Hall and its Civil War setting 03:17Meeting caretaker Billy Bird and hearing the house’s stories 05:26Mary Elizabeth, reported EVPs, and everyday ghost lore 09:30Octagon Hall’s history as a Civil War hospital 11:15 The black mist on the stairs 13:24 A photograph of a similar mist in the same room 15:08 Three unsettling events during a candlelit Halloween tour 17:06 The closet door that reportedly latched from outside 19:26 A wounded soldier encounters another soldier 20:57 A medium’s visit and the pull of Octagon Hall

A solo explainer introduces what defines arachnids, then focuses on spider anatomy, feeding, silk, classification, and reproduction. The episode clears up common misconceptions about venom, webs, and sexual cannibalism while showing how spider adaptations work together. keywordsspiders, arachnids, spider anatomy, spider silk, spider venom, spider reproduction, sexual cannibalism, tarantulas key topics Defines arachnids within the arthropods and distinguishes them from insects and crustaceans by features including chelicerae, eight legs, two body sections, and simple eyes. Explains that spiders use venom to liquefy prey before consuming it, clarifying the difference between venomous and poisonous. Describes silk's varied roles: building webs, sensing vibrations, leaving trails, creating safety lines, and supporting reproduction. Compares araneomorphs, or true spiders, with mygalomorphs such as tarantulas, including differences in fang orientation and web use. Shows how pedipalps help distinguish male and female spiders and how males use sperm webs and specialized palps to transfer sperm. Challenges the idea that sexual cannibalism is universal, explaining its possible reproductive value and noting that it varies across species. takeaways All spiders are venomous. They all eat by injecting venom into their prey, which liquefies the prey and then they suck it up. All spiders make webs. They use silk, but they don't make webs to capture prey. Bottom line, the real thing to take home here silk has a lot of uses with spiders. If they look like they're wearing boxing gloves, then it's a male spider. Sexual cannibalism is not super, super common to spiders, but it's obviously more common than humans. key frameworks action items Sound Bites "Venom and poison aren't the same thing." "All spiders make webs. They use silk." "Silk has a lot of uses with spiders." Chapters 00:00Arachnids, arthropods, and the traits that distinguish them 01:56Spider anatomy and the difference between venom and poison 03:25How spiders feed and the unusual vegetarian supplement 04:24Silk's many functions beyond catching prey 06:23True spiders versus tarantulas and other mygalomorphs 08:22Silk trails, safety lines, and spider movement 10:10Using pedipalps to identify male and female spiders 11:39Sperm webs, mating signals, and sperm storage 13:07Why sexual cannibalism happens - and how often

James York and returning guest Kali Mattheus compare the eerie landscapes and folklore of Florida’s Ocala National Forest with Appalachia. Kali brings personal experiences, eyewitness accounts, and regional legends; James adds Appalachian context and explains cryptids and traditions that cross the two regions. keywordsOcala National Forest, Florida folklore, Appalachian folklore, Skunk Ape, Rainbow Family, ghost stories, cryptids, urban legends guest name Kali    key topics Kali describes Ocala National Forest’s scale, sand-pine scrub ecosystem, hundreds of water bodies, and natural springs. James and Kali discuss how Ulster Scots migration may help explain shared folklore across Florida and Appalachia. Blowing Rocks Preserve reveals an unexpected geological connection: Florida’s Anastasia Formation and sand include material linked to the ancient Appalachian range. Kali recounts unsettling Ocala stories, including a dog that refused to cross a bridge and a camper’s account of a nearby double murder. James explains the Skunk Ape as a Florida-region Bigfoot-like cryptid distinguished in reports by its powerful odor. They discuss the Rainbow Family’s origins, barter-based ideals, decentralized gatherings, and the possibility that encounters with people living outdoors can be mistaken for cryptid sightings. Florida legends including the Coyote Woman, Dark Man, spectral monk, ghostly hitchhikers, and shadowy Watchers are compared with Appalachian and wider traditions. The hosts consider natural explanations for shadow figures and strange lights, including fog, low light, terrain, and the brain’s interpretation of ambiguous shapes. Kali notes reports of free-ranging rhesus monkeys in Florida; James shares Appalachian stories of strange lights, shadow figures, and Bloody Bones. Sound Bites "Maybe it's a skunk ape. Who knows?" "you really smell this one before you see it." "don't go through it at night" Chapters 00:00Why Florida and Appalachia share eerie folklore 03:03Ocala’s vast forest, scrub ecosystem, and springs 07:19Blowing Rocks and Florida’s Appalachian connection 14:30Why driving through Ocala feels unsettling 16:25A dog’s strange reaction and the Skunk Ape 23:20Rainbow gatherings and possible cryptid misidentifications 30:18A camping trip encounters a real-life threat 34:29Coyote Woman, white ladies, and Appalachian parallels 39:09The Dark Man, Hat Man, and shadow figures 43:05Spectral monks, ghost lights, and roaming monkeys 48:01Bloody Bones and the folklore that travels 50:08Why the woods keep their mysteries

In this episode, Troy Price shares insights into the psychology of horror movies, explores different subgenres, and recommends must-watch films for Halloween. Discover how horror connects with viewers on a personal level and learn which movies to avoid. keywords   horror movies, psychological horror, horror genre, movie recommendations, Halloween, film analysis, horror tropes, movie tropes, horror films, movie list   key topics Why horror movies work on a psychological level Different subgenres of horror and their appeal The importance of personal connection in horror films Common horror tropes and their meanings Recommended horror movies for Halloween Movies to avoid during the season The role of tropes like zombies, werewolves, and slashers Psychological thrillers and their unique appeal The significance of personal fears in horror storytelling Insights into horror film creation and audience engagement Sound Bites "The Fly with Jeff Goldblum is a life-changing horror movie" "Hereditary and The Exorcist are the scariest movies I've seen" "28 Days Later and the dance scene are art in horror" Chapters 00:00Introduction and guest introduction 01:40Why horror movies work: connecting with viewers 02:57Different subgenres of horror explained 04:17Personal connections in horror films 05:08The significance of horror tropes like monsters and zombies 06:38The example of The Witch and personal fears 07:55Universal horror tropes and their meanings 09:16The power of slow-moving threats in horror 10:08Fear of the beast within and werewolves 11:04The appeal of slashers and random violence 12:30Psychological horror and favorite films 13:12Top horror movie recommendations for Halloween 14:40Movies to avoid and common pitfalls 16:30The importance of simplicity in horror 17:19Unique horror films like Good Boy and analog horror 19:15Horror movies to avoid and why 21:29The series 28 Days Later and its impact 26:22Favorite horror movies and personal favorites 27:37The horror movies that left a lasting impression 28:13Where to find Troy Price and closing remarks

In this episode, Michael Herst shares a personal supernatural experience involving a ghost named Maria, using ghost-hunting tools and a spirit's own testimony to uncover her story. Discover how technology and curiosity can reveal unseen worlds and the importance of a respectful approach to spirits.   keywords supernatural, ghost hunting, paranormal, spirit communication, personal story, ghost tools, Maria, haunted house, ghost story, supernatural investigation key topics Personal supernatural experience with a ghost named Maria Use of ghost-hunting tools like SLS app and voice recorders Spirit identification through personal testimony and historical research The role of dogs in sensing paranormal activity The importance of respectful and non-threatening ghost interactions takeaways Technology can be a powerful tool in paranormal investigations. Spirits may reveal their stories through direct communication. Personal stories can validate supernatural phenomena. Animals can sense spirits even when humans cannot. Respectful approach to spirits can lead to meaningful encounters. Sound Bites "Maria came through very clear" "She said, I died" "She actually drowned in Pennsylvania" Chapters 00:00Introduction to Michael Herst and his paranormal background 02:08First encounter: Moving stick figure and spirit communication 04:09Using ghost-hunting apps to identify the spirit as Maria 06:00Details of Maria's story and how she died 08:01Connecting Maria to family history and her identity 09:55Repeated visits and ongoing communication with Maria 11:56The significance of the spirit's testimony and validation 13:55Dogs sensing paranormal activity and their reactions 15:57The protective nature of Maria and her benevolent presence 18:00Reflections on technology, spirits, and respectful interactions 20:00Halloween and the possibility of more active spirits during this time 22:02Closing thoughts and where to find Michael Herst's podcast

In this episode, Jess from In Other Worlds shares her insights on horror literature, including unique zombie takes, classic stories, and genre trends. Leo and Jess explore the fascinating world of horror books, movies, and manga, offering recommendations and discussing the genre's cultural significance.   keywords: horror literature, zombie books, horror classics, genre trends, manga, horror movies, literary horror, horror authors, spooky season, horror subgenres   key topics Unique zombie takes in horror literature Classic horror stories and their impact Genre trends and cultural significance in horror Notable horror authors and series Manga and visual horror mediums Sound Bites "Unique take on zombies in the series" "Clive Barker's novella is a perfect adaptation" "Possession is the scariest for me" Chapters 00:00Introduction to Horror Lit and Jess's Podcast 02:20Otto Schaefer's Rack and Ruin Series 04:26The Appeal of Plausible, Near-Future Horror 07:04Classic Horror Stories and Their Modern Reinterpretations 08:25Analog Horror and Literary Experiments 09:26House of Leaves and Genre-Bending Literature 10:00Favorite Lovecraft Stories and Their Influence 11:06Horror Subgenres: Zombies, Vampires, and More 12:31What Makes Something Truly Scary? Personal Preferences 13:20Possession and Ethical Dilemmas in Horror 14:26The Power of Visual Horror in Films 15:20True Crime and Real-Life Horror Influences 16:29Vampire Series and World-Building 17:04Genre Trends and Cultural Fears 18:44Upcoming Horror Films and Adaptations 19:20Manga and Body Horror in Horror Media 20:10Creative Manga Series and Their Impact 21:22Disgust Responses: Literary vs Visual Horror 22:23Horror Stories with Faustian Bargains 23:30Promoting Jess's Podcast and Future Episodes

leo (00:01.134) Hey everybody, James here with the 13th floor. This is the second of the 13 nights of Halloween. And this is what will probably be the last solo one. Every other one is going to be interview format. This is me just sort of telling you guys what we've got in store for starters. Uploaded to our YouTube channel for the first time is our interview in full video format. with Sasha the Tarot Diva. So that's a really wonderful interview and I've wanted people to be able to see it for a while. I was just waiting for the occasion. It's been available audio wise for for a long time, but it's not been an MP4. So got the MP4 uploaded. Additionally I'm gonna be talking with various guests this week about horror lit, about scary movies. about haunted spots, local cryptids, a whole slew of things like that. So just stay tuned. It's gonna be really fun. And this particular episode, in addition to just telling you what what's in store and also mentioning that you should definitely watch if you haven't already listened and even if you have listened to the Sasha the Tarot Tarot Devo deck ter wow, that's really hard. Tarot Diva episode. It's a really fun interview and one that I thoroughly enjoyed. But also, I wanted to bring up a topic that I find really interesting, and that would be leo (01:47.338) Analog horror. That's something I've seen of late. And it's evolved a lot, but as far as a genre goes, it's just utterly fascinating. The idea of taking old photographs of old footage and interspersing that with other forms of media to make a really believable world building kind of atmosphere is it just fascinating to me. I highly recommend people look into it. It kinda reminds me of the episode we did on mimetic horrors, you know, Slender Man and things like that. 'Cause it does have a lot in common with online creepypasta stuff. You know, the back rooms is a great example of that. I mean, we're actually seeing something that was popular on the internet become a feature film that not only tells a compelling story but has done really well. South Park just r yesterday lampooned that concept, or maybe it was last week, but it was it was a really interesting thing to see that it become that much a part of the Zeitgeist. But as far as analog horror goes, YouTube is rife with I'm not gonna make any recommendations because I think it's better to organically fall into that, but YouTube is riddle with some analog horror stories and it's something that I would recommend checking out if you want to be thoroughly creeped out this spooky season. So just food for thought. That's a that's a genre that has come to my attention for quite some time, but it's something I've not talked about on the show and I think more people who haven't explored it should really be aware of it that analog horror is just like super creepy. Another fun example of that is Siren Head. You know, that's that's become that's evolved from I I wanna say creepypasta to analog horror videos to video games. And it's gotten to a point where now like people are actually talking about Siren Head like an iconic horror character. I just think that's really cool. But yeah, if you're interested in in something a little different this Halloween leo (04:10.4) analog lore is something you may want to explore because it it utilizes different elements really well and when it's done right it can be I think a lot scarier than any conventional medium. So just you know something to consider. Also updates wise I will will be giving and this is a bonus episode but also on YouTube I will be uploading a full video spider update. where I'm just gonna showcase all the critters, how they're doing. They've all grown tremendously. Ulong's completely transformed. I know I I post stuff like that to social a lot, but they all look so big. Fanta is enormous now by comparison of when I first got them. So just stay tuned for that too. I think that'll be fun. And yeah, this is I promise I'm just trying to incorporate more visual elements in our stuff for the 139th of the 13th floor. This is not like some funnel to the YouTube channel. I'm not asking you to subscribe or click the bell or any of that. It's just I like the idea of for this particular occasion just highlighting some more things that you can see and not just hear this time around. So that's the goal. But yeah, Sasha the Tarot I'm doing it again. Sasha the Tarot Tarot Diva. That is really hard to say by the way, because it's an A and then an O and then an A. but yeah, check that interview out on YouTube if you like because I think it's a really fun interview and for the first time ever you can watch it rather than hear it. So thanks so much everybody. Once again, happy Halloween. Hope you all have a great spooky season and stay tuned because the next ten nights are gonna all be different things. So thanks. Keep it strange.

Long-time friend of the show and serial guest Troy Price discusses his favorite scary movies!

Hey everybody, this is James with the 13th floor. I'm trying to look spooky and occult, but I probably just look comfy, I don't know. But this is a special 13 day event that we occasionally do called 13 Nights of the Thirteenth Floor. And I'm going to be doing twelve interview formats, including with my co-hosts Alex and CeCe. just more unique, more short form things leading up to and including Halloween. But for day one, it's a solo thing, and I just was going to tell everybody one that I'm doing these thirteen nights of the thirteenth floor and what they can look forward to, but also what I'm doing specifically to celebrate the spooky season. So I've been playing Resident Evil Requiem. That's been really fun and scary. I watched Smile Two, not as good as the first one in my opinion, by a mile. Watched Event Horizon for the first time, that was phenomenal. Watched Frankenstein, that was that was really good. That was actually they made a lot of changes to the original, but in ways that I think strengthened the narrative. So Del Toro's Frankenstein I thought was actually really good. And I'm trying to think of what other ones I've done. They've they've there's been some Pretty decent shows. I've w I've been watching Hannibal as well. And of course, I've been having auto foods, pumpkin curry, spicy soups, both homemade and from out, things like that. Probably gonna start getting more into just bought a pour over coffee thing and no spooky season would be complete without a a spider update too. Julius became a mature male, so I've sent him off to be bred. So hopefully I'll be getting 300 children from him and keep two of them maybe. So we'll see. Once they reach maturity, they don't live much longer. But yeah, we're gonna have we're gonna have David Lyons from the Murder Police, we're gonna have CeCe and Alex, we're gonna have Troy Price, we're gonna have Callie Matthews, we're gonna have some surprise guests from some spooky locales located throughout the bluegrass. leo (02:28.416) So every single day is gonna be something new. Usually these are gonna last somewhere between like five and twenty minutes, so they're not gonna be the forty five minute things. We will return at some point. I know it's been a long hiatus. For the first half of the year I had mono and then I had surgery and then second half of the year Alex and CeCe have just been absurdly busy with just overall personal life and work and things like that. So that's the reason. hopefully very soon. We're gonna be back though. But I thought this would be a a good way just to kinda jump into the season for for everybody and and let you all know little updates going on with us, which when I talk to Alex and CeC for an episode, there'll be even more updates on on things like that. But yeah, again more conversational, more spooky stuff, more mm Halloween centered. rather than topic centered. So that's what we're doing. Hope you all enjoy the next thirteen days. Happy Halloween in advance. Of course I'll tell everybody Happy Halloween when the day arrives as well. So some of these will be purely audio, but some of them will also be video. I'll let you all know in advance. This is also gonna be on YouTube as a video so y'all can see my silly little robe that I'm wearing to try and look like I'm in an eyes wise shut party. But other than that I hope you guys look forward to these episodes. There's also going to be a little teaser additional thing where Troy's going to talk about his favorite Halloween movies today. So that's another side of it. So thanks so much you guys. Hope you enjoyed this. Looking forward to it. Happy Halloween. And as always, keep it strange.

The gang tackles ticks, alpha-gal, and other alleged bioweaponry.

The gang is back and ready to tackle the latest DOJ intel on the aerial crafts and species sightings from beyond the stars or under our noses.

A very special episode where James and special friends David and Wendy from Murder Police interview Roderick about his amazing NDE and inspiring life's mission.   Murder Police Podcast: https://murderpolicepodcast.com/ Speaker Details Stroke of Success Book: https://www.roderickjefferson.com/stroke-of-success Sales 3.0 Book Link: https://roderickjefferson.com/book Sales 3.0 Companion Workbook: enablement-3-0 Keynote Speaker Highlight Reel: Social Media Channels: Free eBooks: Onboarding & Everboarding https://roderickjefferson.com/companion-workbook-saleshttps://bit.ly/3zRVNJa https://linktr.ee/roderickjefferson Harnessing Collective Intelligence Supercharge Your Sales Team with AI Podcast Playlist (Spotify): http://bit.ly/4mHhSOv Preferred Hashtags: #HopeIsNotAStrategy #LearnAnywhereAchieveEverywhere #IQplusEQplusAI #salesenablement3dot0 #strokeofsuccess #GTMtransformation #saleenablement  #keynotespeaker #transformationalspeaker #healthandwellness Bio for Show notes: Roderick Jefferson is an internationally recognized business and transformational speaker. He has shared his dynamic and energetic voice in a variety of events, including keynotes, guest lectures, webinars, podcasts, and domain expertise panels, with companies such as the ATD Conference, B2BMX Conference, Cisco, Collibra, LinkedIn, MindTickle, Revasum, Oracle, Sales Assembly Conference, Sales 3.0 Conference, Sales Enablement PRO Conference, Salesforce (Dreamforce), SAP, Seismic, Showpad, SiriusDecisions, Uber, Zoom and others. bestselling book Roderick is also an acknowledged thought leader in the sales enablement space and the author of the Amazon Sales Enablement 3.0: The Blueprint to Sales Enablement Excellence, Sales 3.0 Companion Workbook and Stroke of Success. He has held various executive leadership, sales, sales enablement, operations, and customer