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🎯 Referrals already work for your agency but you've never optimized them... Get our free 30-minute video crash course - learn how to turn referrals from reactive and random to proactive and systematic.   -- Most agencies lose pitches before they walk in the room. Here's why — and what to do about it. Grant Gooding, founder of Proof Positioning, has helped agencies win high-stakes pitches using neuroscience, decision physiology, and a research process built on an FBI interrogation technique. The insights are counterintuitive and the results speak for themselves. In this episode: -Why 70% of agency pitches fail (and it's not your creative) -The neuroscience behind why logic-only pitches can't be processed -The RFP trap — and how box-checking makes you invisible -How to de-risk a pitch for a multi-stakeholder buying group -The FBI elicitation method that gets to the truth without asking questions What "pre-work" looks like — and why it gives agencies an unfair advantage Why "build me a website" almost always masks a bigger business problem Grant's 3-step formula for winning the pitches that matter most The threat to agencies from AI + holding company acquisitions — and how to fight back Find Grant: proofpositioning.com

🎯 Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them.  Get our 30-minute video crash course on how to turn referrals from reactive and random to proactive and systematic:  https://go.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine/?utm_source=podcast_dag -- Buying patterns have changed - fast. If you're still pitching the same offers the same way you were two years ago, you're probably hearing "let's talk in three months" a lot.  Mandi Ellefson returns to the show to break down what's actually happening out there, and what agencies and service firms can do about it. A few things we got into: Why clients are freezing, shrinking scope, and pushing timelines — and what's really behind itThe four-level service pyramid (staff augmentation → high-quality provider → proven ROI → growth partner) and where 80% of the market is stuck generating 20% of the profitsThe "Power of One" formula: one client, one painful problem, one transformation — and why offers built around it command dramatically higher feesWhy hiring a salesperson before your go-to-market system is built usually makes things worse, not betterThe blind spot most agency owners have when they think "I just need more sales"How a sales admin can own 70–80% of the referral and partnership process so the owner only shows up for the conversationsA real example of an agency that niched into elder care, went from five-figure to seven-figure engagements, and is on a path to $10MResources mentioned: Mandi's upcoming training on the Hands-Off Growth Operating System: handsoffceo.com/briefing

🎯 Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them.  Go here to get our 30-minute video crash course on how to turn referrals from reactive and random to proactive and systematic: https://go.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine/?utm_source=podcast_dag -- Adam Yaeger built Llama Lead Gen from solo freelancer to 17-person embedded growth agency over eight years. In this episode, he breaks down what actually drove that growth — and what didn't. We get into why he put branding on the back burner early (and why that was the right call), the hiring mistake that cost him a client relationship, and why soft skills matter more in the age of AI, not less. On the biz dev side, Adam shares what's worked for Llama Lead Gen — SEO, Clutch, referrals — and why cold outreach mostly didn't. Plus a few partnership stories, including what happens when white labeling goes sideways. We also dig into GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) and why Reddit has quietly become one of the more interesting paid channels for B2B. What we cover: -Growing from solo to 17 people over eight years -Why branding can wait — and when it can't -How Llama Lead Gen gets new business: SEO, Clutch, and referrals -Partnership wins and one memorable miss -Balancing client delivery with sales when you're the only BD -Managing seasonality: when to push, when to pull back  Resources Mentioned Llama Lead Gen: https://www.llamaleadgen.com/ — Marketing budgeting and PPC calculators available on the site Lead Gen in the Wild Podcast: Available on Spotify, Apple, and wherever you listen 

Learn the small shift that makes referrals repeatable. Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine?utm_source=podcast -- Most agencies treat the RFP as the cost of doing business. Chris Rose has built a career out of sidestepping them entirely — landing clients like Hilton, Planet Fitness, and NBC Universal along the way. Chris serves as Executive Director of Growth at Cylinder Studios, a design and production studio within the Cheil Agency Network. Before that, he led new business at Movers and Shakers. We got into why RFPs are almost always poorly written, how to bypass procurement with preferred vendor status, what's changing with AI and pricing, and why the best pitch teams are smaller than you'd think. What You'll Leave With: - Diagnose before you pitch — co-write the brief with the client - Become a preferred vendor to bypass procurement - Smaller pitch teams win more - Production is the new strategy - Stay close to the work after you win it Connect with Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-rose22/ Cylinder Studios: https://www.cylinderstudios.com/

Learn the small shift that makes referrals repeatable. Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine?utm_source=podcast -- Most agency owners assume nobody can sell as well as they can. Lori Cox built an agency, sold it, and then took a BizDev leadership role — and says she's actually sharper at sales now that she's not running the whole show. Lori brings 20+ years of B2B marketing and revenue experience. She built and sold a full-service healthcare-focused agency, then moved into VP of BizDev at Knack Collective, where she works with global tech companies on partner-led go-to-market strategies. We got into the systems that made her agency sellable, why most partnership pitches go nowhere, and how the inbound/outbound mix has shifted heading into 2026. What You'll Leave With: Systems before salespeoplePartnerships require intention and attentionDiversify your pipeline, not just your client baseNon-owners can be better salespeopleAI is changing the job, not replacing it Connect with Lori on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-cox-mba/ Knack Collective: https://knackcollective.com/

Learn the small shift that makes referrals repeatable.  Check out our new video training.  -- What happens when years of planting seeds finally meets the right market moment? Alexis Trammel is Chief Growth Officer at Stratabeat, a B2B SaaS organic growth agency. She recently transitioned from account management into a biz dev role.  But the real story is how timing and preparation collided. For years, Stratabeat was doing the unglamorous work: niching down, building LinkedIn presence, publishing original research, speaking at conferences, nurturing relationships. Then GEO (generative engine optimization) hit right as AI anxiety peaked, and suddenly the leads started flooding in. This conversation explores what it looks like when the groundwork you've been laying finally pays off, and why most agencies aren't ready when their moment arrives. What You'll Leave With: Why lead flow needs to exist before you hire a salesperson—not the other way aroundHow years of niching down positioned them to catch the GEO waveThe compounding value of original research, LinkedIn presence, and conference visibilityWhy internal sales hires often outperform external ones when the foundation is thereHow to keep planting seeds even when you're not sure which one will sproutThe seasonality reality and why "when it rains, it pours" cuts both waysTimestamps: [00:00] Introduction to Alexis Trammel and Stratabeat[02:36] The long road of niching down and eliminating services[03:19] When AI panic created unexpected demand for GEO[05:16] Original research as a lead gen and credibility play[07:46] Coming back from maternity leave to a sales opportunity[10:00] Why the lead flow has to come before the sales hire[11:47] Wearing both the sales and marketing hats[14:10] Planning for seasonality when you're riding a wave[16:41] LinkedIn as long-term brand building, not cold outreach[22:04] GEO converting better than almost everything except referrals[30:12] The relationship groundwork that makes referrals possibleMentioned Resources / Links: Stratabeat - B2B SaaS organic growth agencyNever Eat Alone by Keith FerrazziAlexis Trammell on LinkedInTom Shapiro on LinkedIn

When clients start asking "What am I paying you for?", most assume they have a pricing problem on their hands when they're actually facing an operations problem.  Leah Leaves is the founder and CEO of Alderaan Operations, where she embeds operations directors and part-time digital project managers directly into remote agencies.  In this conversation, she reveals what's happening when clients question an agency's value - asking for more deliverables, questioning reports, or wondering why they can't just use cheap tools themselves.  A few things we covered:  Why the same operational bottlenecks agencies have always had are now happening at 10x-100x speedThe exact question clients are asking agencies right now (and how the best agencies are answering it)How agencies are reinvesting time saved by AI into client experience, productized tools, and advisory servicesThe "bionic org chart" framework for documenting what AI owns versus what humans ownA practical system for turning meeting transcripts into searchable client context that actually gets usedWhy hiring people who want to stay static in their role is a feature, not a bugThe shift from deliverables-based positioning to strategic marketing partner (and why AI makes this more urgent)Timestamps: [00:00] Introduction: Leah Leaves and the state of agency operations[01:26] Same issues, 10x-100x speed: What's really changing with AI[03:37] The question clients are asking: "What am I paying you for?"[06:38] How agencies are answering the value question differently[11:15] Moving from execution to advisory: Selling thinking, not deliverables[15:30] The art of productive client meetings (and why most fail)[20:45] Hiring strategy: Finding people who want to grow vs. stay static[29:47] The bionic org chart: Documenting AI's role on your team[32:17] Practical AI implementation: Turning meeting notes into searchable knowledge[34:20] Ideas that wouldn't exist without reduced latency[35:29] Where to find Leah and learn more about operationAlderaan Operations - Leah's company embedding ops directors in agencies Leah Leaves on LinkedIn - Connect with Leah

Looking to build a repeatable, referral-focus biz dev system inside of your agency? Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine -- What if successful agency business development isn't about having the perfect system, but about showing up consistently in the right conversations? John Caruso is the Director of Business Development at Vendilli, where he's spent the last six years navigating the messy reality of agency growth. With a decade of BD experience spanning traditional and digital agencies, John has learned that there's no magic formula, just consistent effort in the right places. In this conversation, he shares the unglamorous truth about what BD actually looks like day-to-day, why agency owners set their BD hires up to fail by expecting results too quickly, and how he learned the craft by sitting in dozens upon dozens of sales meetings with his team.  What You'll Leave With: The realistic timeline for a BD hire to become truly effective at an agencyHow to structure your day when client needs constantly derail your plansWhy sitting in sales meetings with experienced agency owners builds BD skills faster than any courseThe "shortlist" dynamic that determines whether prospects even consider your agencyHow to think about the division between marketing and sales activitiesWhat systems need to exist before bringing on a dedicated BD personAn education-first approach to staying top of mind without being pushyTimestamps: [00:00] Introduction: John's journey from traditional to digital agency BD[02:30] The reality of a day in the life of agency business development[05:40] What activities consistently drive revenue for agencies[10:30] Why getting on prospect "shortlists" matters more than perfect positioning[15:45] Moving beyond transactional referral requests[20:15] How the BD landscape has shifted over the past decade[28:34] What needs to be in place before hiring a BD person[29:04] The learning curve: why it takes 6-9 months minimum to see results[31:10] How Vendilli divides marketing and sales responsibilities[33:25] Where to learn more about John and VendilliVendelli: https://www.vendilli.com/  John on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johncaruso-vendilli/

Here's what nobody tells you about referrals: the real value isn't the introduction, it's identifying who will keep referring you for years. In this episode, Dan breaks down why the classic "let me know if you know anyone who needs our services" approach fails almost every time, and walks through a systematic process for turning your existing network into a consistent source of warm introductions, tastefully.  What You'll Leave With: Why asking "know anyone who might need our services?" puts massive cognitive load on your contacts (and what to ask instead)The three biggest referral mistakes agency owners make and how each one sabotages your resultsHow vertical vs. horizontal relationships determine whether someone will refer you The specific ask process: transitioning from categories of people to named individuals your connector actually knowsA practical approach to mapping your LinkedIn network for "referral ready connectors" without spamWhy strategic partnerships should be prototyped through referrals first, not started with commission structuresHow to think about the time investment: high-touch, high-leverage vs. volume plays that don't fit specialized agencies Resources  Are you an upmarket-focused agency interested in setting up a referral-based new business system?   Lets talk - go here for details: https://hey.salesschema.com/referral-engine-lp

New Video Training. Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them.  Learn how in our latest video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine  -- This year-end review distills the most important lessons from a year of conversations with agency owners, researchers, and growth experts who've been in the trenches. What You'll Leave With: Why trust has replaced awareness and differentiation as the scarce resource in agency growthThe counterintuitive sales-to-delivery handoff that makes closing easier (even though it seems expensive)How to move referrals from passive hope to systematic pipeline generationThe difference between economic headwinds as obstacles versus excusesWhy specialization is no longer a debate but table stakes for competitive agenciesThe rise of agency perspective An under-discussed macro trend that could reshape entire marketing niches over the next few yearsEpisodes Referenced:   -Nick Petroski: https://salesschema.com/the-data-you-need-before-you-build-your-2026-biz-dev-plan-with-nick-petroski/ -Brooke MacLean: https://salesschema.com/how-brooke-maclean-built-an-80-person-agency-with-zero-debt/ -Brock Murray: https://salesschema.com/scaling-past-50-employees-how-seo-plus-built-a-global-agency/ -Spencer Gallagher:  -Stewart Gandolf:  https://salesschema.com/lessons-from-building-an-eight-figure-niche-agency-stewart-gandolf/ -Erik J. Olson:  https://salesschema.com/erik-j-olson-on-why-most-agencies-plateau-and-how-to-build-one-that-grows-predictably/ -Stephen Woessner: https://salesschema.com/stephen-woessner-on-the-smile-graph-ais-impact-on-agencies/ -Karl Sakas: https://salesschema.com/karl-sakas-on-scaling-smart-and-reclaiming-your-time/ -Todd Gagne: https://salesschema.com/karl-sakas-on-scaling-smart-and-reclaiming-your-time/

Chances are referrals work for your agency.  Maybe they're the only thing that ever has.  But you've never optimized them.   [Note: this is an encore of an episode originally aired 12/3/25].  If your agency is stuck in "the Cobbler's Children phase", where you deliver great work for clients but new business feels chaotic and reactive, this episode offers a way out. I'm sharing my referral workshop from the All In Agency Summit, condensed from 60 to 30 minutes of pure strategy. This isn't about random networking or hoping referrals happen. It's about installing a repeatable system that generates 2-5 targeted introductions weekly without cold outreach spam or burning out your team.  What You'll Leave With: The four-level agency maturity model and how to identify which phase you're actually inWhy the 2020 shift made trust—not awareness—the scarce resource in B2B salesThe high school gym versus NFL stadium test for choosing the right lead gen strategy based on your market sizeA two-pronged outreach approach that keeps your pipeline full even when you're wearing too many hatsThe simple emotional game-changer that gets introductions to actually happen instead of sitting in limboThe one data tool you need to get started without expensive SaaS platformsWhy asking for referrals is actually a positive-sum game that benefits everyone involvedHow to systematize client referrals so your account team generates opportunities automaticallyThe sprint-to-marathon framework that proves this approach scales beyond your immediate network

if you're using the holiday break to plan for a strong Q1, this conversation will reshape how you think about pipeline. [this is an Encore Episode originally aired December 3, 2025] Nick Petroski, founder of Promethean Research and the industry's go-to source for agency market data, spent years studying what actually drives growth for digital agencies. Not best practices or guru advice, but real numbers from real shops. What he found challenges conventional wisdom. The agencies getting the most predictable growth aren't the ones with the slickest outbound machines, they're the ones who've built systems around relationships they already have. Nick breaks down the ownership gaps, comp structures, and tactical frameworks that separate random referrals from repeatable revenue. If you're heading into 2026 wondering whether your pipeline issues are a "you" problem or a market problem, this conversation will help you see which levers you actually control. What You'll Leave With: -The "is it me or the market?" framework for diagnosing your real pipeline problems -Why shrinking total addressable markets make relationship-based growth less optional and more strategic -How to structure account manager compensation to drive growth, not just retention (70-30 vs 60-40 splits explained) -A tactical approach for asking clients for specific introductions without feeling pushy or salesy -Why your Fortune 500 "locked down" account might actually be your biggest referral opportunity -The consultative mindset shift that makes asking for referrals feel like service, not sales -How to identify which accounts actually have referral potential worth pursuing Mentioned Resources / Links: -Video Training: How to Scale Your Agency with Systematic Referrals and Strategic Partnerships (30 min) -From Random to Repeatable: The Digital Agency Referral Playbook - Nick's research report on systematizing referrals

What actually drives agency growth when pipelines are noisy, buyers are skeptical, and everyone sounds the same? In this episode, Dan Englander sits down with Alex Marshall, a longtime agency growth leader with two decades of experience across holding companies and independents, to unpack what really moves the needle. They explore why trust and relevance matter more than tactics, how storytelling shows up late in the sales cycle, and why relationships compound over time even when results aren’t immediate. This is a grounded conversation about growth as a discipline, not a hack.  🧭 What You’ll Learn The real differences between growth at holding companies vs independentsWhy agency specialization can both help and hurt salesHow storytelling works after the first sales callWhy “just checking in” emails failWhat actually reactivates dormant or boomerang clientsHow to stay relevant to skeptical CMOsWhy relationship-building beats short-term metricsHow agencies should think about referrals and alliances🕒 Timestamps 00:00 – Alex’s background and global agency experience   04:30 – Holding companies vs independents: growth tradeoffs  06:00 – Relationship-building across regions and cultures  10:20 – When specialization helps — and when it limits you  16:45 – Storytelling as a sales tool, not just marketing  20:40 – Coalition-building in complex B2B sales  23:30 – Re-engaging dormant and boomerang clients  26:40 – Why timing and relevance matter more than frequency  29:20 – Managing time across the full funnel  32:10 – Measuring progress without over-relying on metrics  35:00 – Selling to skeptical CMOs in uncertain markets  38:00 – Why referrals and trust compound over time  41:00 – Strategic partnerships and being “something to someone”  45:45 – Making referral asks easier — and more effective

What if the agencies that crush Q1 aren't working harder in January, they're making one  or two critical decisions right now, in December? In this solo episode, Dan reveals why Q1 consistently catches agencies off-guard and what separates those who stumble into the new year from those who hit the ground running. The secret isn't about working through the holidays or setting ambitious goals—it's about installing a systematic referral system during Q4's quieter moments.  What You'll Leave With: Why trust, not awareness, became the scarce resource after 2020 and how it changes your approachThe four stages agencies move through and how to identify which phase you're stuck inThe "high school gym vs. NFL stadium" test for choosing the right lead generation strategy based on market sizeHow to structure connector calls to get 2-5 quality referrals from a single conversationThe simple human emotion that makes people actually follow through on promised introductionsA two-pronged outreach system that keeps your pipeline full even when you're buried in client workWhy making it easier for people to help you eliminates the awkwardness of asking for referralsThe one free data tool you need to get started without expensive SaaS platformsTimestamps: [00:00] Introduction: The strange Q4 gap period and what's coming[02:33] The Cobbler's children phase and why most agencies get stuck there[05:00] The four stages of agency growth and how they're detached from revenue[09:15] The 2020 trust recession and why cold outreach stopped working[12:30] High school gym vs. NFL stadium: Choosing the right strategy for your market[16:45] The systematic referral framework: How to generate warm intros weekly[21:20] Structuring connector calls to get 2-5 referrals per conversation[24:10] The emotional game changer that makes introductions actually happen[27:17] Common objections: "This seems like too much work" and "I'm worried about asking for help"[29:35] How this scales beyond your initial network (sprint, jog, run phases)[31:54] The Referral Engine Program and Referral Network Diagnostic offerQuotes:  "A lot of agencies end up in level two, which we call the Cobbler's children phase. They have a track record, they've produced results for clients, but new business is very reactive—it's very much catch as catch can." — Dan Englander "After 2020, we saw a massive shift. Trust became the scarce resource, not awareness. Everyone's inbox is full, everyone's LinkedIn is saturated, and people have gotten really good at tuning out anything that feels like cold outreach." — Dan Englander "If you're getting on a call a day—like an apple a day keeps the doctor away—or five calls a week, that is usually more than enough to hit 99% of sales goals." — Dan Englander

If you’re planning your 2026 biz dev strategy without real market data, you’re guessing. In this episode, I talk with friend of the show Nicholas Petroski, founder of Promethean Research and creator of the Digital Agency Referral Playbook, about what the numbers actually say—and how top agencies are using referrals, account growth, and GTM clarity to build next year’s plan. This is the clearest look you’ll get at what’s really moving the needle heading into 2026. 🧭 What You’ll Learn The referral trends shaping 2026 pipeline planningWhy most agencies misread pipeline healthWhat data actually predicts account growthThe role of referrals in a tighter 2026 GTMWho should really own the referral processHow to identify your most valuable connectorsWhy “good work” isn’t enough to drive introsWhat the best shops are fixing before January🕒 Timestamps 00:00 – Why 2026 planning requires real data  01:02 – Nick’s new research & why referrals matter now  03:11 – From Random to Repeatable: core findings  05:45 – Why agencies still handle referrals passively  07:29 – The shrinking TAM + rising skepticism problem  09:22 – Who should own referrals (and who shouldn’t)  12:40 – Cross-sell models that actually grow accounts  14:36 – Pipeline health vs conversion vs system health  18:07 – How to operationalize intros without friction  23:59 – The risk of relying on 1–2 referral sources  27:26 – Why referrals must be part of your GTM  29:15 – The mindset shift from “salesy” to consultative  33:00 – What the data says agencies must fix for 2026 🔑 Key Quotes “Referrals work—if you treat them like a system, not a hope.” — Nick Petroski“ Agencies don’t have a lead problem. They have a clarity problem.” — Nick Petroski 📢 Links and Resources  From Random to Repeatable: How Agencies Turn Referrals into a Reliable Growth Engine If you want a repeatable referral system heading into 2026, grab my book 📘 Relationship Sales at Scale