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E192 | The Power of Slow Healing: Aundi Kolber on Trauma and Transformation In this Face to Face podcast episode, Melinda and Cathy share updates from the Immanuel Institute, including 21 people in Level I and an upcoming Level II cohort starting November 30, emphasizing experiential training, coaching triads, community, and trauma-informed education.  They welcome licensed professional counselor and bestselling author Aundi Kolber (Try Softer, Strong Like Water, Take What You Need), who explains how a traumatic childhood and later life transitions led her into therapy and trauma work. Kolber discusses why healing is often slow and gentle rather than a quick fix, critiques performative faith and spiritual bypassing, and describes shame as a belonging-threatening force shaped by attachment patterns.    She addresses relational over-reliance, titration as gradual change, and why body-based approaches matter, outlining nervous system concepts like the window of tolerance, fight/flight, and dissociation, and connecting embodiment to Christian theology through Jesus' incarnation. 00:00 Welcome & Immanuel Institute Update 03:39 Introducing Aundi Kolber 04:05 Aundi's Path to Therapy 08:45 Why Slow Healing Works 18:06 Shame, Performance & Attachment 29:18 Secure Attachment with God 39:36 The Body & Nervous System 53:15 What's Next for Aundi 55:29 Closing Thanks https://aundikolber.com/about-me/ www.immanuelinstitute.com

E191 | Stories That Heal: An Intimate Talk with William Paul Young Paul Young on Return to the Shack, Death Row Friendships, and Living in the Grace of the Moment Melinda and Cathy welcome back author Paul Young to discuss his new book, Return to the Shack (releasing October 6), describing it as a continuation rather than a sequel and noting it expands the cast into a "choir," with larger roles for Nan and the community around Mack. Young shares how the story began through a decade-long relationship with men on death row in Nashville, inspiring questions about what happens in Mack's life 10 years after The Shack, including grief, forgiveness, justice, and facing the serial killer directly. He emphasizes staying present ("pass the salt"), how anxiety affects the body, and his shift away from trying to fix people toward being a loving presence, rejecting ideology and categorization. The conversation also touches on trauma-informed perspectives in prison, the difference between vengeance and healing, and Young's reflections on God's kindness, wholeness, and the connection between grief and joy. 00:28 Welcome Back 02:30 The Interview Begins 03:14 Pass the Salt 06:05 Return to the Shack 07:46 Death Row Relationships 24:33 Identity & Love vs. Ideology 35:22 The Prison System & Trauma 41:56 Closing Reflections www.immanuelinstitute.com

E190 | Lysa TerKeurst | Navigating Control and Trust   Lysa TerKeurst on Control, Anxiety, and Trusting God with the Outcome | Melinda Wilson and Cathy Little celebrate reaching episode 190, noting the long wait and technical issues that shortened their interview with Lysa TerKeurst. TerKeurst, Proverbs 31 Ministries president and bestselling author, shares how her husband's double life led to an unwanted divorce and shaped her recent books on rejection, forgiveness, boundaries, trust, and her new release, Making Peace With What I Can't Control. She explains how anxiety and fear often drive controlling tendencies, contrasting responsibility with control and emphasizing the need to trust God with outcomes. TerKeurst offers practical steps: recognize when fear is motivating control, commit to reality, and mentally release what is outside one's control to God, while staying self-controlled and practicing surrender.  00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:28 Season Update And Milestones 01:24 Introducing Lysa TerKeurst 03:52 Conversation Begins 05:52 Lysa Story And Calling 08:17 Fear Behind Control 15:34 Trusting God With Outcomes 19:44 Responsible Vs Controlling 21:50 Practicing Surrender Daily 24:19 Release And Surrender Tools 26:40 Book Details And Release Date 29:16 Wrap Up And Farewell https://lysaterkeurst.com/ Register for Level 1 - Immanuel Approach for Life: www.immanuelinstitute.com/for-life

The Secure Soul: Healing Through Presence, Parts Work, and God's With-ness Therapist and psychologist of religion Dr. Alison Cook explains her work at the intersection of attachment wounds, emotional life, and how people experience God, including her training in Internal Family Systems (IFS) and her books Boundaries for Your Soul and The Secure Soul. She and discusses with us "with-ness" and presence as central to healing, contrasting quick-fix problem solving and religious bypassing with learning to be with uncomfortable parts without shame.  Cook outlines her "recognize and return" practice, the need for compassion, curiosity, and containment, and how grief and exiled emotions can feel overwhelming and may require support. She shares her personal history of panic attacks, disembodiment, and discovering IFS, plus cultural trends in parenting, psychology, and evangelical language that can reward disembodiment. Cook promotes her latest book: The Secure Soul (released Aug 18), a family roles quiz, and an 8-minute daily devotional podcast unpacking scripture through psychology.  01:53 Introduction & Alison's Background 13:54 The Parts Framework (IFS) 17:18 Grief & the Healing Process 37:41 Christianity, Shame & Compassion 53:09 Closing & Where to Find Alison https://www.dralisoncook.com/ Register for Level 1 - Immanuel Approach, Go to: www.immanuelinstitute.com/for-life

E188 | Susan Carson | Safe Enough to Heal: Why the Church Gets Trauma Wrong and What to Do Instead Welcome to the Face to Face podcast and episode 188 with spiritual director and author Susan Carson. Susan tells her story of meeting Jesus at 18, later experiencing spiritual trauma, and moving into a contemplative path of prayer and inner healing. We talk about how neuroscience, Christian mystics (especially Julian of Norwich), and the biblical idea of kenosis (Philippians 2) come together in her "safe space" approach—noise-free, shame-free, and formula-free—focused on embodied, face-to-face connection. We discuss how church environments can be unsafe and harmful, why healing is low-and-slow rather than a quick fix, what it cost Susan relationally (including LGBTQIA+ convictions), and her new book releasing May 5, with more at susancarson.net. Instagram: @susancarsonauthor YouTube: @SusanCarson Substack: @susancarsonauthor 00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:29 Episode Intro and Summer Plans 02:38 Meet Susan Carson 05:04 Her Spiritual Journey 08:17 Mystics Meet Neuroscience 12:29 Kenosis and Healing Space 16:14 Good News After Deconstruction 23:10 Church Safety and Trauma 25:47 Book Controversies and Costs 28:13 Safety and Trauma Basics 29:05 Church Culture and Safe Spaces 29:50 Leaders Doing Inner Work 31:23 The Quick Fix Myth 32:33 Contemplative Healing Journey 36:59 What Contemplative Really Means 39:22 Low and Slow Rewiring 42:40 Book Takeaways and Release Info 45:50 Thesis Origins and Farewell 47:05 Podcast Wrap Up

In episode 187,  we welcome Dr. Jason Swan Clark, a professor, spiritual director, former pastor, and theologian, who recounts his traumatic childhood, coming to faith at 17, decades of church planting and pastoral leadership, a nervous breakdown at 30, and ongoing work integrating mental health and faith. Jason describes how suffering shaped his leadership, distinguishes healing from transformation, and explains Ignatian spirituality and the Spiritual Exercises, including consolation/desolation and a practical discernment process. He closes with a personal story of meeting Jesus in Gethsemane through the Exercises during COVID and shares where to find his work online. 00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:29 Episode 187 Milestone 01:14 Institute Updates 02:40 Meet Jason Swan Clark 04:25 Setting the Conversation 06:17 Jason's Origin Story 08:34 Breakdown and Calling 09:45 Waverley Abbey Vision 13:21 Trauma Survival and Escape 18:20 Workaholism as Coping 24:22 Trauma Shaping Leadership 31:10 Healing vs Transformation 34:46 Wanting More Than Healing 36:30 Healing Through Participation 40:04 Embracing the Cross 42:25 Trauma and Purpose 46:30 Ignatius and the Exercises 51:34 Discernment Made Practical 01:00:18 Freedom and Attachments 01:05:32 Gethsemane Stay Awake 01:07:24 Closing and Where to Find Jason   https://www.spex.so/ https://www.jasonswanclark.org/

E186 | Paul Young | Embracing Uncertainty: Finding Truth in the Unknowing - Part 2 Paul Young (Part 2) on Prayer as Relationship, 12-Step Community, Healing vs Curing, and Return to the Shack In episode 186 (Part 2) of the Face to Face Podcast, we continue our conversation with Paul Young, discussing prayer as ongoing conversation within relationship and how spiritual practices can help but often need community to endure. We talk about honesty without fixing, and how close relationships expose areas needing healing. The conversation explores reclaiming inner wisdom, resisting church-driven codependency, and transformation from the inside out. Paul shares updates on Return to the Shack: A Journey into Redemption (releasing October 6, with a special Shack hardback including three sequel chapters) and a large-scale Shack stage musical in Germany planned for spring 2029. He also addresses living with epilepsy, seeking healing rather than curing, and using "unrighteous wealth" (platform/notoriety) shrewdly for the kingdom.   01:22 Trauma Course Plug 01:52 What Prayer Looks Like 03:43 Spiritual Practices Reframed 05:17 Bradley and AA Community 10:09 Why Community Heals 14:07 CODA and Not Fixing 17:21 Codependency and Self Trust 20:20 Poem on Voice and Boundaries 21:35 Sequel Release Plans 22:28 Musical Adaptation Update 25:10 Casting Connection Offer 25:51 Creative Process Reflections 27:06 Health and Epilepsy Journey 30:57 Unrighteous Wealth Parable 33:42 Using Platform for Kingdom 40:07 Revival and Union Talk 41:35 Podcast Farewell and Outro

E185 | Paul Young | Embracing Uncertainty: Finding Truth in the Unknowing - Part 1 We are excited to  welcome back one of our favorites -  Paul Young (author of The Shack) for part one of a two-episode conversation, while also sharing updates on Immanuel Approach for Life Level 1 and 2 cohorts and a Wheaton College research team studying the model's efficacy.    Paul reflects on the necessity of "unknowing" as humility and openness, contrasting intellectual belief with whole-person trust and relational knowing. The discussion explores trauma and religious performance as obstacles to embodying God's goodness, emphasizing awareness of an always-present union/non-separation with God rather than earning it.  Paul critiques fear-based theology and transactional faith, reframes Hebrews 11's "substance" as Jesus, and offers a practical way to interrupt panic and future-tripping by asking, "What do I know is true right now?"   00:35 Training Cohorts Update 01:15 Research Study Spotlight 01:30 Introducing Paul Young 02:21 Cloud of Unknowing 02:46 Letting Go of Certainty 05:06 Trust Beyond Head Knowledge 12:09 Union Versus Awareness 13:44 Unconditional Father Love 20:06 Trauma Shapes Theology 23:24 Gods Character Questioned 25:45 Knowing Versus Believing 31:32 Removing Barriers to Love 31:55 Untangling Dark Religion 33:44 Grief Without Losing Trust 35:33 Separation Distorts Faith 36:59 Hospital Story Faith Shame 41:31 Hebrews 11 Jesus Substance 45:03 Union Mystics And Indwelling 50:08 Eden God Never Turns Away 53:17 Agency Submission Not Control 55:04 Fear Love And Inner Work 58:41 Present Tense Stops Panic 01:00:11 Closing Thanks And Outro

Episode 184: Dr. Bob Schuchts on Healing the Whole Person, Spiritual Formation, and Bridging Catholic–Protestant Divides On Episode 184 of the Face to Face Podcast, we welcome Dr. Bob Schuchts, founder of the John Paul II Healing Center, to discuss healing ministry from a Catholic perspective and its overlap with the Immanuel Approach. Dr. Schuchts shares his background as a longtime therapist, a pivotal spiritual encounter that led him to study many prayer modalities, and his current work offering healing and training conferences that emphasize safety, surrender to the Holy Spirit, abiding, discerning inner movements, addressing barriers, and practicing prayer ministry. The conversation explores healing as an ongoing encounter with God's love and truth that brings wholeness and communion, the link between healing prayer and spiritual formation, the "seven deadly wounds," and how sacraments and interdenominational bridge-building relate to unity and integrity in the body of Christ.  00:29 Episode and Course Updates 01:11 Meet Dr Bob Schuchts 03:13 Bob's Healing Journey 07:15 Training and Conferences 11:59 Healing and Formation 15:50 Seven Deadly Wounds 22:19 Catholic and Protestant Bridges 24:50 Baptism and Salvation 26:10 Confession and Forgiveness 27:09 Eucharist and Real Presence 27:42 Confirmation Marriage Orders 29:14 Anointing and Healing 29:50 Sacraments Heal Roots 30:44 Bridging Denominations 35:05 Unity and Communion Boundaries 39:49 Integrity and Marriage Analogy 42:29 Healing Grace and Cooperation 44:00 Resources and Closing Thanks

Wayne Jacobson on Experiencing God's Love, Presence, and Freedom Beyond Performance | Face to Face Podcast Ep. 183 In this episode of the Face to Face Podcast, we interview author and former pastor Wayne Jacobson about moving from a transactional, performance-based faith to an experiential life rooted in God's affection, presence, and fullness. Wayne shares his background, ministry disillusionment, repeated experiences of betrayal, and how God's presence slowly meets people in pain and trauma. He explains how a curative (not punitive) view of the atonement reshaped his view of the Father, argues that transformation comes through relational engagement with God rather than information alone, and critiques Christianity as a sin- or shame-management system. He discusses community as a gift cultivated through hospitality and friendship, points listeners to his book He Loves Me and his websites, and closes by praying for listeners to relax into the "unforced rhythms of grace." 00:26 Meet Wayne Jacobson 01:08 Level One Invitation 02:07 Trauma Course Preview 03:15 Why This Interview Matters 04:57 Wayne's Journey Begins 07:30 Betrayal and Presence 09:41 From Earning to Love 16:18 Atonement Reframed 20:16 Engagement Over Information 24:30 Belonging Before Behaving 28:00 Affection Presence Fullness 29:12 Rethinking Sin and Shame 30:29 Sin Management Trap 32:02 Righteousness as Justice 33:26 Relational Justice Through Love 35:49 God Inside Our Failures 37:08 Lifting the Legalism Veil 40:11 Unforced Rhythms of Grace 46:17 Engagement Over Doctrine 51:08 Fear of Hell and Salvation Now 53:25 Finding Real Community 58:26 Resources and Final Blessing 01:01:29 Closing Reflections and Outro

Brian Zahnd on Christian Nationalism, the Kingdom of Jesus, and a More Beautiful Christianity | Face to Face Podcast Ep. 182   In episode 182 of the podcast, Melinda interviews pastor, author, and theologian Brian Zahnd (Word of Life Church, St. Joseph, Missouri), while co-host Cathy is absent due to losing her voice and shares updates on Immanuel Institute trainings and the standalone Understanding Trauma Course. Zahnd recounts leading one congregation for 44 years, the church's early rapid growth, and a major theological recalibration that moved them toward the Christian tradition and away from politicized rezligion—costing them about 1,500 people between roughly 2004–2014—followed by healing on a 40-day Camino de Santiago pilgrimage in 2016. The conversation contrasts the kingdom of Jesus with Christian nationalism, critiques reducing "Christian" to an adjective serving political agendas, and emphasizes that discipleship requires allegiance to Christ over nation while maintaining a church culture marked by kindness amid political differences. Zahnd centers his theology on "God is like Jesus," argues Jesus reveals God as Savior rather than saving us from God, commends the historic creeds as generous guardrails, and discusses leaning into the "beautiful" as cruciform Christianity, along with his books and an upcoming release, The Unseen Realm (May 19). 02:08 Meet Brian Zahnd: Pastor, Author, Pilgrim 04:05 44 Years at One Church: Calling, Team Leadership & Generations 07:56 A Midlife Faith Shift: From Mega-Growth to Recalibrating Christianity 10:48 Critiquing America, Losing 1500 People & Finding Healing on the Camino 13:39 Kingdom of Jesus vs. Christian Nationalism: Where Allegiance Belongs 19:29 America as Nation, Empire, and "Religion" + The Discipleship Challenge 24:37 'Christian Nation' Myths, Founding Fathers & Why You Can't Baptize a Country  27:33 Global Perspective: Sweden, Trump, Team-Sport Politics & Choosing Love  33:52 Creating a Kind Church Culture Across Political Differences 35:42 Seeing God Through Jesus (Not Culture or Politics) 37:14 John's Prologue: Why Jesus Is the Clearest Revelation of God 40:35 Undoing the 'Angry God' Imagination: Jesus Doesn't Save Us From God 43:44 Creeds, Control, and the 'Heretic' Label: Keeping Christianity Generous 47:04 Making Room for Mystery: Truth, Goodness, and the Power of Beauty 51:43 Cruciform Beauty in Practice: Open Hands, Leading Without Coercion 55:20 Staying With the Church: Family, Calling, and Local Influence 57:21 Books, New Release, and Reclaiming a Non-Escapist Heaven  01:02:40 What Christ Can Bless + The 'Christian' Label + A Final Blessing https://brianzahnd.com/

Welcome to another inspiring episode of the Face to Face Podcast. In episode 181, we are honored to introduce Jason Twombly, also known as the Heartsmith. Jason is a spiritual development coach working primarily with men to transform their pain into power, hurt into healing, and wounds into wisdom. Dive deep into discussions about emotional maturity, trauma processing, and the journey of healing with God. Discover how Jason's personal journey and professional guidance are helping men reconnect with their true selves and cultivate meaningful relationships. Join us for an exploration of vulnerability, emotional safety, and authentic living.    00:36 How to Get Involved with the Immanuel Institute 02:33 Introducing Jason Twombly: The Heartsmith 04:14 Jason's Journey and Work with Men 07:13 The Importance of Emotional Health for Men 10:19 Jason's Personal Transformation 13:29 Challenges and Breakthroughs in Emotional Healing 21:25 The Second Half of Life: Unlearning and Surrender 23:51 A Message for Men: Recognizing the Need for Help 25:12 Helping Men Rediscover Passion and Purpose 25:57 Transforming Pain into Power 27:29 The Importance of Vulnerability and Safe Spaces 28:10 Grief and Healing: A Personal Journey 31:51 The Role of Self-Leadership and Emotional Sovereignty 33:56 The Continuous Journey of Healing 35:22 The Power of Community and Relationships 42:40 The Abyss of the Heart: A Deeper Dive 43:38 Training Men for Emotional Competence 47:02 Encouraging Men to Seek Healing 49:03 Conclusion and Call to Action Resources Mentioned:  Immanuel Institute: Immanuelinstitute.com  Jason Twombly: jasontwombly.com; The Heartsmith Coach on Substack; Book: Jesus Comforts - A Devotional from Heartache to Healing  Contact & More Info:  Face to Face Network: facetofacenetwork.org Don't forget to leave a five-star review and subscribe for more empowering episodes!

In this enlightening episode of the Face to Face Podcast, we sit down with Bill Vanderbush to explore the simplicity and depth of the gospel. Bill dives deep into the contrast between modern Western Christianity and the early church teachings, emphasizing the importance of understanding our identity through Christ.   We discuss the pitfalls of performance-based faith, the transformative power of grace, and the importance of awakening to our true relationship with God as a loving Father. Bill also shares his thoughts on the current reformation in the church and how it's reshaping believers' understanding of the gospel.   Tune in for an inspiring and thought-provoking conversation that challenges conventional religious beliefs and invites listeners into a deeper, more intimate walk with God.   00:00 Introduction and Announcements 01:07 Introducing Bill Vanderbush 02:53 Bill Vanderbush on Union and Grace 04:53 Complications in Modern Christianity 05:46 The True Essence of the Gospel 08:00 The Fatherhood of God 15:53 Reformation and Awakening  22:46 Healing Trauma Bonds with God 33:09 Grace and Faith: A Gift from God 34:13 The Evolution of Paul's Teachings 37:20 Childlike Wonder in Faith 40:28 Living in Reconciled Rest 46:13 The True Nature of the Gospel 50:47 The Role of Theology and Reformation 51:53 Final Thoughts and Encouragement More info: billvanderbush.com

E179 | Discovering the Self with Adam Young: The Role of Neuroscience in Faith (Exploring Attachment and Brain Science with Adam Young)   In this episode we welcome therapist and author Adam Young to discuss the profound impact of early caregiver relationships on how we relate to God. Young explains the importance of understanding our attachment history and the significant influence of early life experiences on brain development. We delve into topics such as narrative therapy, the role of the nervous system, and the importance of paying attention to one's body and internal experiences. Young highlights the necessity of addressing trauma and harmful experiences to achieve personal freedom and a better understanding of oneself. He emphasizes the continuous practice of introspection and attunement to one's body as vital for personal growth and well-being.   00:00 Introduction to the Face-to-Face Podcast 00:28 Exploring Attachment and God 01:13 The Impact of Early Experiences on Our Relationship with God 03:51 Understanding the Importance of Our Stories 04:47 The Role of the Nervous System in Trauma and Healing 08:42 The Power of Attention and Interoception 23:34 Embracing Self-Sovereignty and Personal Responsibility 33:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts     https://adamyoungcounseling.com/

In this episode of the Face to Face Podcast, we welcome bestselling author and professional counselor Jenna Riemersma to discuss Internal Family Systems (IFS). Dropping during Christmas week, the episode focuses on deeper connection and healing practices. Jenna explains the significance of IFS, a therapeutic model emphasizing the importance of embracing all aspects of oneself, even those that are challenging. She shares insights on welcoming and understanding these parts through self-compassion and curiosity, aligning them with one's divine essence. The conversation also touches on critical distinctions between parts and their burdens, emphasizing the need for relational healing rather than control. Jenna concludes with a guided meditation, assisting listeners in moving toward their inner parts with kindness. The episode encourages journaling reflections, and reminds listeners about the valuable resources available through Jenna's website, MoveToward.com, and her upcoming book, 'Move Toward.'   00:00 Introduction and Holiday Greetings 00:46 Interview with Jenna Riemersma 02:22 Immanuel Institute Enrollment 04:30 Jenna Riemersma's Background and IFS 07:11 Understanding Internal Family Systems (IFS) 09:53 Practical Applications of IFS 17:26 Addressing Challenging Parts 25:01 Healing Through Relationship and Compassion 28:50 Understanding Parts Work 30:02 Compassionate Approach to Self-Hatred 31:19 Welcoming Resistance and Concerns 33:42 Spiritual and Faith-Based Integration 38:37 Practical Steps for Self-Compassion 40:29 Guided Meditation for Parts Work 51:45 Reflections on the Meditation Experience 58:03 Final Thoughts and Resources 01:04:39 Conclusion and Farewell