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Loitering with Evan Ratliff is a conversation with Evan Ratliff about his career trajectory as a journalist and podcast host, and the backstory behind "Shell Game," the podcast he created about the influence of AI in our lives. To read the accompanying newsletter, please visit loitering.substack.com. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone! I’ll start with the obvious—over a year has passed since my last update. Again, after Loitering at the Merylthon, I thought the cadence of updates would be more frequent. But of course, life calls. It’s been a busy year, and a challenging one at times. In the middle of that, though, there have been balms, and this interview is one of them. Earlier this year, I was lucky to speak with the writer Carvell Wallace about his memoir, Another Word for Love, for the journal Alta. We sat on the grass at Lake Merritt in Oakland and had a wide-ranging conversation about love, writing, healing, etc. — some of which appeared on the Alta Q&A, much of which did not! I hope you’ll listen to it now. The interview also appears on Carvell’s Substack. (the cover of Carvell’s memoir) On my end, this summer I took on a new role with Uncuffed. In addition to teaching and editing at Solano State Prison and co-producing our podcast, I’m now strategizing media partnerships for Uncuffed—a.k.a., getting the word out about our amazing work! If you’re in the podcast and/or media world and want to feature Uncuffed stories, re-air an episode, or write about Uncuffed, please get at me. Uncuffed recently won an award from the NorCal Society of Professional Journalists for a story about pickleball in prison (!) The awards ceremony was a rare opportunity for a lot of Uncuffed staff to be at the same place at the same time, so please enjoy this photo of us. :) A story I reported for 99% Invisible also won an award that night (!) I mostly think awards in journalism are a scheme, but I admit it was nice to be honored. The story is one of my favorite pieces I’ve ever reported. It’s about the history and evolution of U.S. military simulations and the experiences of the role players who staff them. I started reporting on the story at the beginning of 2023, and by the time I started tracking it at the end of last year, the war in Gaza was well underway. Suffice it to say it made covering a piece like this an even more surreal experience. (The latest headlines have now placed the death toll at a staggering over 44,000 people, according to Palestinian authorities). And that’s just what the news reminds us of. It’s easy to forget ongoing conflicts in Ethiopia, Armenia-Azerbaijan, Sudan, Ukraine, etc., etc. Selective amnesia about war, politics, and so on is a trend. Let’s not forget how that’s also playing out in the U.S. these days. But back to the story. Another reason I loved reporting that 99pi piece is that it brought me back to that feeling of discovery that happens when you’re out in the world, reporting outside your home or comfort zone and engaging all your senses. I miss that! Outside of Uncuffed, I’ve been working on another project, but it’s been mostly planning and less field reporting at this stage. That will change in time, although it often feels like it can’t happen soon enough. Until then, something else has been creating a new experience of being in the world… …Which brings me to other news—I got a puppy! If you’re reading this post, you probably already know that. His name is Yunoki. He’s a medium bernedoodle named after the local train stop where I lived in Japan. The name generates that natsukashii feeling, and he generates a lot of attention! Yunoki is a walking conversation starter. I’ve been enjoying my time with him and leaning into my identity as a dog person. :) And yes, he has an Instagram. Here’s a photo of him from a few months ago. He’s bigger now! And here’s a little portrait my friend Evan took of us this summer. Again, I want to say I’ll be more frequent with these posts—it seems like everyone has a Substack these days and is doing just that—but I also do enjoy posting at this slower cadence. So let’s see. Wishing everyone a peaceful close to 2024. Maybe you’ll hear from me before it ends, maybe you won’t! Until next time… Peace, Sonia This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone. Before I get into the topic of this interview… Suffice it to say it’s been an incredibly long time since my last update… Over a year, in fact. I swore to myself at the end of last year that I’d be more consistent with updates for 2023 (starting with “Loitering in the Closet” — and yes, I still plan to do that episode). But scheduling hurdles for planned episodes got in the way, and then, with news of a bill to ban caste discrimination in California, my time and attention snapped onto covering that issue. I had already wrapped up my production work on an audio documentary about caste in Silicon Valley for The Documentary podcast on the BBC when Seattle became the first city in the U.S. to ban caste discrimination. Cue me crouching in the closet to re-track that narration so we could include it in the BBC story. Then, California state Senator Aisha Wahab announced SB 403, a bill that would clarify existing California civil rights laws to explicitly ban caste discrimination as well. Cue more re-tracking. By the time The hidden caste codes of Silicon Valley (as we finally called the BBC story) was finally released, there was a ton of attention on SB 403. And suddenly, here was this audio documentary with me interviewing Dalits and asking people somewhat uncomfortable questions about caste in front of an Indian grocery store. Suddenly, I found myself going on podcasts and news shows to talk about the issue and the significance of the bill, as well as actively reporting on the ground in Sacramento as meetings on the proposal drew intense crowds of supporters and protestors. You may have heard that California Governor Newsom recently vetoed the bill after it was passed by a majority of the California State Legislature. However you feel about that news, it seems pretty certain this issue isn’t going away. If you’re interested, you can hear me wax on about my reporting on Here and Now, Our Body Politic, KQED’s The Bay, The Grand Tamasha, Forum on KQED, KALW and Vox’s Today, Explained. I also wrote and reported this story about the bill for Mother Jones. This was all before Newsom’s decision, by the way, so there’s definitely more to report and say. That’s an update on what’s been preoccupying my energy recently, but that’s not necessarily the point of this post. I very well realize that as I write, a conflict is raging in Israel-Gaza that’s scary, heartbreaking and devastating on multiple levels. And that people are very afraid and hurting. It’s a grim time. And I say/write this as someone relatively distanced from the situation. I can only imagine how this is impacting Israelis, Jews, Palestinians and others for whom this hits closer to home. There is a lot to absorb about what’s been happening. I found this one of the more insightful pieces I’ve come across, as it doesn’t lose sight of the necessity of managing complexity in this moment. Now, onto expanding upon the Loitering interview embedded in this post. It may seem frivolous in comparison to the previous discussion. But I actually find it quite beautiful and meaningful on top of being funny and silly. And that is the Merylthon. The Merylthon is/was a “unique 3-day film marathon featuring Meryl Streep in 8 iconic film roles.” It was the brainchild of my good friend Evan Roberts, who orchestrated the event after it first started out as a fun pun back in 2006. The point of the actual Merylthon was not just to finally bring the concept to life, but to also fundraise for Queer Life Space, a Bay Area organization that offers evidence-based training and mental health services for the LGBTQIA+ community. I went to the showing of The Devil Wears Prada at San Francisco’s Four Star Theater during the Merylthon only to find an original Guess Who game featuring Meryl… … as well as a ton of original paraphernalia and promotional items (see the video). Sadly, I missed the drag performances because it took so long to find parking (poor time management on my part). But I did encounter original “Meryl cocktails” and, as you heard in the interview, “she-devil” cake. Evan even created a promotional video featuring real-life Meryls! All this to say, the Merylthon was inspiring. As another friend put it, it was a “beautiful, hilarious, whacky, wonderful, creative idea.” And as Rodrigo told me in our interview, our communities need more events like a Merylthon. Congratulations to Evan and the rest of the Merylthon team! Until next time… Peace, Sonia P.S. If you’re curious to know more about She-Devil, here’s the original trailer. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone… So it’s been quite some time since the last episode of Loitering. Some helpful information you should know to understand this current episode is that at the end of last year, I started teaching at Uncuffed, a podcast and audio journalism training program in California prisons. That work recently brought me and my colleagues (including several formerly incarcerated producers of Uncuffed) to Norway. More information about that when you listen to this episode! The person you’ll hear is Tommy Ross, who goes by Shakur, and it was recorded on June 16, 2022, in the lobby of Oslo’s Hotel Verdandi. Shakur wanted to send along some pictures for this episode, so here they are below. You’ll understand these moments when you listen. :) Shakur and Ninna (who you’ll hear about during the episode) at the FedEx facility: Shakur at the San Francisco International Airport: Shakur running into Eli (who you’ll also hear about during this episode) in Amsterdam: Some members of the Uncuffed team visiting Halden Prison in Norway: Me, Ninna and Shakur at Oslo City Hall: Shakur in Norway! Shakur being interviewed by Angela (who you’ll also hear about during this episode) the morning after we recorded this interview: If you’re looking to understand more about why Californians are interested in Norway’s prison system, have a listen/read to this piece from KQED (which features Isiah Daniels, who also has a cameo in this episode of Loitering)! Some other updates from me: Earlier this year a piece I reported for the BBC World Service profiling the Ethiopian American writer Meron Hadero aired/published. You can have a listen to that here. And a piece I’d been working on for some time about caste in Silicon Valley came out in March and was featured in the April issue of WIRED magazine. You can read that here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hello, everyone! It’s been a long year, to say the least. Hard to believe 2021 is about to close. Before it does, however, please check out this special episode of Loitering, featuring Albert Samaha, Johana Bhuiyan and Arvin Temkar. We discuss Albert’s new book, Concepcion, and dig into the process of excavating family history and identity. I like to think of it as the good thinking, good listening podcast we could use for our ears right now! Let me know what you think. Peace, Sonia Sonia Paul 0:13 Okay, thank you both for agreeing to join me for this book club/book talk about Concepcion, by Albert Samaha. And so before we like get into the book discussion, could you each introduce yourselves so listeners know who are friends of Loitering right now? Sure. Johana Bhuiyan 0:34 I am Johana Bhuiyan. I am a tech reporter and editor at The Guardian. I live in the Bay Area. I'm half Filipino, half Bangladeshi. That's pretty much the pertinent information. Arvin Temkar 0:48 Oh, that's super cool. Yeah, we're all half. We're all mixed. That's really interesting. So my name is Arvin Temkar. I am a freelance photojournalist and writer in Atlanta. And I used to live in the Bay Area. So a lot of the book was really interesting to kind of learn about the history of San Francisco. And I met Sonia in the bay, Sonia Paul 1:08 And to Arvin's point about all of us being mixed, I think that is interesting. All of us have a connection to Filipino culture. My mom's side of the family is born and raised in the Philippines. They're like mixed Indian-Filipino from the Philippines. So there's so much of that culture in my family as well. So to that end, I'm curious because how this started is that I knew Arvin would be reading this book, and I was interested in reading this book. And then I was like, let's have a book club. I know who was probably reading this book as well. And that would be Johana. But also, like, let's pinpoint what was compelling each of us to read this book. Johana Bhuiyan 1:47 I worked with Albert at BuzzFeed. So that was part of it, part a lot of it was just in support of. But I also I mean, I am really interested in my Filipino culture and learning more about the history of the Philippines. There was a lot of like, wanting to learn a little bit more about my Filipino ethnicity. My dad is the Bangladeshi one. I grew up largely culturally Bangladeshi. So I learned how to speak Bangla. Like, I really don't know a ton of the Tagalog. So honestly, any opportunity I get to learn a little bit more about Filipino culture and people who have Filipino backgrounds. And obviously, Albert, knowing him personally, I was really interested in, and he had done a couple of articles too about his mother. And I was actually hoping to read a little bit more about that as well. Sonia Paul 2:30 Yeah, did you to have a chance to like, exchange information or experiences about being half Filipino? Johana Bhuiyan 2:38 No, I honestly, like did not know that. He was half Filipino. I like did not know what ethnicity he was. Until he started writing about his Filipino mom. I'm like, Oh, this makes a lot of sense, based on his name. Like, I'm like, this all started to click for me. But yeah, I'd never put two and two together. We had like, talked about it after I stopped working on Buzzfeed. But it was never like a topic of conversation. Sonia Paul 2:59 Hmm, interesting. How about you, Arvin. Arvin Temkar 3:02 I also know Albert, we're friends. And we went to journalism school together. So obviously, I want to support him and his brilliant writing. But you know, I'm also just super interested in all of the topics that he writes about, particularly in this book, the question of whether his family or anybody's family is better off moving to the United States and kind of pursuing the American dream, as many of us have been raised to believe. I didn't mention this earlier, but my mom is Filipino, and my dad is Indian. But I relate mostly to my Filipino side. And I think that's because I learned my mom's language when I was little. I have a lot of cousins in the United States who are Filipino, my mom cooked food from her country. And I didn't really have that same experience on my dad's side. It was kind of interesting also to kind of read the book and learn a little bit about Albert's dad, but also kind of recognizing that he seems to really identify particularly with his Filipino side. I think I have a similar experience. Sonia Paul 3:59 Yeah, I was also really intrigued to read this book because I feel like I haven't come across many books about Filipino identity and culture from like a second generation experience. Also super interested in that critique, as Arvin mentioned, of like, is it a good thing that people chose to immigrate to this country. And also the experience of coming from a half identity or like a bicultural experience? And then writing about that diaspora community or about that immigrant community? I just don't feel like we have a lot of that in literature at this moment. And so one of the things I was thinking about when reading this book is that considering that he's examining his own Filipino identity and acknowledges he grew up with that side of his family and really embraces that, how did that portrayal resonate with you? Arvin Temkar 4:51 I thought it was really interesting that Albert describes kind of this black and white dichotomy in our culture, and kind of questions where other people fit in, particularly if you're Filipino. And the part that resonates with me in the book in regards to your question is, he kind of does this cultural analysis of this movie called The Debut, The Debut. Sonia Paul 5:16 Yes! Arvin Temkar 5:17 And where the main character kind of falls, how that relates to his experience. And I guess Albert relates a lot to Black culture, and the character in that movie seem to fall in with white culture. And he kind of compares and contrasts these experiences. And I really did that personally, because I've always felt like I have kind of related more to the white culture, but had noticed in my school that it felt like many of the Filipinos were relating more to Black culture. So it's always been like just a weird dynamic. And I think partly that might be because I moved around a lot when I was a kid. And I didn't have many other Filipino friends, until I got to like, MiddleSchool AND high school, where I was on an army base, and there were a lot of Filipinos, Johana Bhuiyan 6:03 I mean, I was gonna ask you where you grew up, because I think that adds a lot of context, you know, whether you identify more with white or Black culture as a person of color. I mean, that was something similar, but I thought was interesting in the book. And it's something that I think about quite a lot. Because I do feel like speaking of the lack of representation, or a lack of any kind of narratives about what it's actually like to be Filipino, I think growing up without that, you basically are forced to choose between white and Black culture, because what is a second-generation Filipino culture? What does that look like? Or what is brown culture look like? You know, we just didn't have a very real concept of that. I mean, I grew up in Queens, New York. And so I definitely, I moved more toward Black culture. But I think I also felt more accepted by Black culture and much more comfortable. And so it is interesting to me that while Albert, he felt closer to Black culture than white culture, his family kind of took on and accepted a lot of sort of the white stereotypes, white expectations, kind of saw whiteness as — whether or not it was a net positive — accessing that whiteness, or that closeness to whiteness would be the thing that provided them a lot of opportunities. In order to progress in American society, they needed to accept whiteness, which I think is pretty true of a lot of my immigrant family. Right. Like, I think that that was sort of the same thoughts that they probably had. That the closer you get to the white standard, or the white way of living, the more successful you actually are. I think all of that kind of rang true for my experience as well. Sonia Paul 7:36 Yeah, I mean, I thought it was really smart that you mentioned, it depends where you're growing up, what a culture would identify with black culture, or white culture, if those are the two dominant cultures, because reading this book, so much of it takes place in the Bay Area. So so much of it is familiar for me, because I am from the Bay Area. And in the Bay Area, like growing up kind of the same generation as Albert, it is kind of, in the areas that we grew up, we're growing up around a lot of other minorities, right. So I feel like in my elementary school days, there was maybe like, one white person. And then he actually left in like seventh grade. It was just like all these other kids. And so like, kind of hip hop culture was the dominant culture. Um, just the way we spoke and interacted with the culture. It never felt like whiteness was something we were trying to aspire to, per se. Because it was never sold to us as the thing that we needed to aspire to. Like, you know, we had multicultural days, and sort of like what you call like, crab beads, but we didn't always have crab, sometimes we'd have like Filipino food, because that was like the population that was around and was interested in that. So that was really striking to me. But also, you know, this book is also examining colonialism and imperialism. And I'm curious how you thought of the way that book related those structures, concepts to this aspiration of whiteness, or this idea that being closer to white was like a good thing versus Black culture was more transgressive. If you have any thoughts about that. Johana Bhuiyan 9:13 I loved the way that he drew it back to colonialism in the Philippines, because I think people don't r

Hello! This episode of Loitering is a brief one, so no transcript. Hope you enjoy! Here is a picture of the trees discussed in the episode. According to the app PlantSnap, they are Ceiba speciosa, otherwise known as silk floss trees. From front to back: Breezy Treezy, Cheesy Treezy, and Weezy Treezy. Here is a portrait of Latif with Breezy Treezy. Listen to Radiolab here. Listen to Latif’s award-winning podcast, “The Other Latif,” about a detainee at Guantanamo Bay who shares his name, and what 9/11 and the War on Terror have brought us 20 years later. Check out Latif on the Netflix show “Connected” here. Read this affecting piece by Niha Masih about covering India’s devastating surge of coronavirus while the pandemic also infected everyone in her entire family. And check out “Dreamland: The Burning of Black Wall Street,” directed and produced by Salima Koroma, with Adam Perez serving as director of photography (and a host of other talented team members supporting the production, as is the case with most other podcasts and documentaries you consume)! Here’s some info on how to watch from the CNN Press Room: “Beginning Tuesday, June 1, the film will be available on demand via cable/satellite systems, CNNgo platforms, and CNN mobile apps.  DREAMLAND will encore Saturday, June 5 at 9:00pm Eastern.  HBO Max will offer the film for subscribers at a later date.” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Heylo!!! It’s been quite a while since the last episode… and now, 2021 is certainly upon us. There’s much to update on, but first, here’s an episode of Loitering recorded about a month ago… that stems from this article by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey I read a couple of months before that, about a phenomenon that might ring a bell to many listeners — 🔥 imposter syndrome🔥. As you’ll hear, there are burning flames around this term for a reason. Enjoy! Also, please scroll ahead to the links below the transcript for some updates from me. :) Sonia Paul  00:11 Hello, everyone, welcome to Loitering, the occasional but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. And today I am loitering with two very special guests. Can you please introduce yourself? Ruchika Tulshyan  00:27 Sure, I'm Ruchika Tulshyan, I'm a former journalist. And currently, I write about gender diversity and racial equity in the workplace for Harvard Business Review. I also run an inclusion strategy practice called Candour. Jodi-Ann Burey  00:43 Hi, and I am Jodi-Ann Burey. I'm a speaker, writer, I call myself a disrupter because we have to do things differently if we want to achieve social change. I speak and write at the intersections of race, culture, and health equity. I also created and host the podcast Black Cancer, which is about the lives of people of color told through their cancer journeys. Also have a TED talk titled “The myth of bringing your full, authentic self to work,” where I really try to disrupt what we think of how racism shows up in the workplace. Sonia Paul  01:16 Cool, thank you both so much for making the time to talk. And the two of you both co-authored an article recently for the Harvard Business Review, titled “Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome.” And I was just wondering, you know, first of all, can we just define what do we mean when we say imposter syndrome? Because I also feel like it has become a catch-all term for a lot of different things that maybe have the same source, and how are you defining it? Jodi-Ann Burey  01:47 So imposter syndrome is defined as not having an internal sense of success, despite probably having what other people might call success, right. So whether it's the degrees that you've had, the accolades that you've had, you know, whatever area in your professional life where you are, quote, unquote, high achieving, that sense of achievement isn't felt internally. So the short for that is having this feeling like you're a fraud, or a high level of self-doubt in your, you know, whatever your work environment is, or whatever the context is. Ruchika Tulshyan  02:25 And while feelings of self-doubt, and largely, you know, this, this diagnosis of imposter syndrome can really impact anyone where they may be doubting their self-worth, or their abilities or their successes, it definitely is much more prevalent in women, in terms of the way the research has been done. And it is also sort of a syndrome that's really, you know, placed upon women. And so often women get diagnosed with imposter syndrome, we're invited to a lot of events, women's events, conferences, where women are essentially being taught how to overcome their imposter syndrome. So even though feelings of self-doubt and feeling like, you know, maybe you question whether you belong in a place, or whether you really are a fraud, those feelings might be fairly universal by gender and race, there is a very gendered aspect to how it shows up in our society. Sonia Paul  03:23 Yeah, and, you know, something that I was just like, very curious about is just this notion of being a fraud, and how essential that is to the definition of imposter syndrome, because I think — I personally think, for example, that there is a lot of maybe the influence of humility in fueling imposter syndrome, just, you know, women who wouldn't boast about themselves, who do acknowledge that they are successful, but maybe not to the extent that they should, and others don't validate them. And so I'm just wondering if that is part of our definition of imposter syndrome, or if that's something else, and if the two of you reflected upon that? Jodi-Ann Burey  04:13 Yeah, I think what's interesting here is even as Ruchika was speaking before, with the sense of diagnosing and syndrome and all these medical terms, all of this is done and people can't see this because it's a podcast, but "in quotations," right, diagnosing them with this quote, unquote, syndrome. You know, and so I think what we are trying to speak to in the article is around the structural environment within which women and folks of color and other people who experience marginalization or underrepresentation, what that environment is doing to create these feelings or heightened feelings of self-doubt, because, you know, Ruchika and I talk about this, having a healthy level of self-doubt is normal, but to the degree that gets talked about and is explained within this concept of imposter syndrome, or of what you're saying where women, people of color, folks have other identities are also socialized to try to downplay their work and their worth and their value in some way. And, you know, we can all give examples of men-identifying people in our lives who do not do that, who take up as much physical space as possible, who take as much energy as possible, to boast about the work that we're doing. And we value that. And so I think what you're speaking to of this downplaying, and this concept of imposter syndrome is linked, in that the racism and sexism that exists in our culture is what creates — I think they're both byproducts of what bias looks like, in these, you know, micro-moments of our lives, and also in the decision making in our workplaces. Sonia Paul  05:57 Right. And what led the two of you to do this research together? Was there like a tipping point in our cultural conversation? Or was there some sort of emerging research that came out that really pushed you to go in this direction? Ruchika Tulshyan  06:12 Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I actually wish there was research that we could cite, because for a few people who might have felt, you know, like, this article was, you know, did not speak to them, or it did not speak to their experience. We did hear from, you know, we heard from some white women, we heard from some men who said, you know, I experienced imposter syndrome to when it's really unfair, or like this doesn't apply, you're talking about just women or women of color. But that's not been my experience as a non-woman or a non-person of color. And sometimes I wish there was research to, to say that, you know, there's a direct link between this very specific phenomenon of feeling imposter syndrome, and how that relates to experiencing sexism and racism in the workplace. The reality is, the link exists. And I think for any of us, or anyone we've spoken to about this topic, even some of the experts that we interviewed, there is definitely a link that I think the academic research needs to catch up to, in all honesty. But I think the tipping point, if I really think about it, is indeed, Jodi-Ann and I often would talk about how we're invited to these events, or how we were expected to sort of address — both of us are professional speakers too — and often we would be asked to address this topic of, how do you overcome self-doubt? How do you overcome imposter syndrome? Or on the converse, how do you be more confident as a woman? And it was really grating against us, because I think both of us connected over the fact that we don't really identify with this term. And yet, we're supposed to keep addressing it in the various audiences, among the various especially female-identifying audiences we were supposed to talk to, or that conferences we were supposed to attend. And it was really grating at us, because what was a common experience that we both had, was experiencing sexism and racism in the workplace as women of color. And we really talked about how many of our feelings of not belonging or questioning ourselves were far more linked to those experiences of facing exclusion and bias, rather than this innate feeling that we were lacking, or that we were frauds or there was something in us that prevented us from reaching our full potential in the workplace. Sonia Paul  08:32 Right. I mean, I also very much feel like that, too. I mean, that was one of the things that spoke to me about this article is that I think sometimes I ask people for advice, and I hear "imposter syndrome." And it seems like it's the right thing to describe, but maybe not, actually, like… And so uh. Well first of all, before we get into further questioning, can we like preface the study that first cultivated the use of this term? And actually how it was described as a phenomenon before syndrome? What was that study? When did it come out? And what should we know about the context to help us understand maybe some of the nuances behind what they were describing as this imposter phenomenon among women? Jodi-Ann Burey  09:23 Yeah, I think that distinction between imposter phenomenon and imposter syndrome is really important, because we have the original study, and I want people to know that it is readily available online, you can read it just a couple pages long. And really understand kind of how this concept was birthed — it's one thing to have a study, and then how it's popularized and transformed at some point in our culture into a syndrome. I think that's the thing that we like to do to women, which is create medical diagnoses for the things that are happening in our lives. What I'll say about the original study of what struck me about the study when I first read it, you know, a couple of years ago was it just felt so outside of how I heard people actually talking about it. So the way people understood the term and what was bei

Hi everyone, I hope you all are staying safe and well, despite the pandemic and attempted coup... That being said, this episode of Loitering with Tracie Hunte was recorded just over a week ago at the tail end of 2020 but already feels like a lifetime ago. There’s no transcript, but there is some useful listening that’ll offer context to the discussion (namely this piece about protests and this piece about Nina Simone). I should also mention that while there’s been some radio drama recently, this was pure radio joy. On another note, one of Loitering’s favorite listeners, Chris Turillo, reminded me of this piece recently, and I thought it was worth sharing with all of you. Thanks to Tracie for loitering. :) Here’s to staying strong in 2021. Sonia This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Sonia Paul  00:13 Hello, everyone, welcome to Loitering, the occasional, but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. And today I am loitering in Fort Greene —  Avery Trufelman  00:24 Watch out! Sonia Paul  00:25 Oh my gosh. I very nearly stepped on poop. And today, I am loitering in Fort Greene Park and walking around Fort Greene with a very special guest. Can you please introduce yourself? Avery Trufelman  00:38 Sure. Hi, I'm Avery Trufelman. I make podcasts. And now I live in Brooklyn and I moved here during the pandemic. It's weird. Sonia Paul  00:48 And where were you before, Avery? Avery Trufelman  00:50 In the Bay Area, where you live, and so it's very weird to be walking with Sonia on the other side of the country now. Sonia Paul  00:58 Or not so weird at all. Avery Trufelman  01:00 Right. Like, no weirder than anything else that has happened this year. Like, who knows, right? Anything could happen. Sonia Paul  01:05 Exactly. Okay, Avery. Um, tell us a little bit about your time since being back in New York. What has been the most memorable aspect for you in the last few months? Avery Trufelman  01:20 It's weird, in this moment of extreme nothing, right. Like, I can't go to bars, and I can't really meet people, like, I can't do anything. I can't go to people's homes. It does feel like so much is happening. Like every week bring some sort of little fresh, tiny crisis. And oh, God, was it two weeks ago? I waited in line. It's funny, now that I live in New York have to go back to saying "on line," like, New Yorkers say, like, I waited on line. And I used to say that when I moved to California, and everyone was like, what does that mean? Like, the internet? But now that I'm back, I have to untrain my — like, get back to my New Yorker-ism of waiting on line. So I was waiting on line for a test. And the line was so long — Sonia Paul Wait, a test for what? Avery Trufelman A COVID test, a COVID test, which like, we all have to do all the time now. And it takes forever, and it's freezing. It's like, totally hellish. And um, I did a rapid test. And that day, they called me. And they're like, you've, you tested positive. I was like, oh, oh, I had no symptoms at all. I was shocked. And um. Sonia Paul  02:00 Why, what prompted you to get a test in the first place? Avery Trufelman  02:25 Oh, because it was like, Thanksgiving, and I was about to go home. So it was 10 days before Thanksgiving. And I was like, you know, it's the thing to do, like take a test and then quarantine. I was like, make sure I'm negative and then quarantine. And I was not expecting the test to come back positive. It was super — it was super weird. And um, it was kind of fascinating because I watched the mechanisms of New York State sort of snap into gear. The contact tracers called me, they called me every day. I got sent this pack of like, masks and hand sanitizer. And I mean, the amenities here are kind of amazing. They'll put you up in a hotel if you need it. They asked me to list every business I had interacted with, every person I'd interacted with. I had to go and call everyone and be like, "Hey, I just want to let you know that I tested positive for COVID." And it was a total nightmare. It was like, oh, this is what it must have felt like during the AIDS crisis, to call everyone up and be like, "Hey, I have this thing." And a lot of people were really understanding. Some people were furious. Sonia Paul  03:29 Can I ask, like, this rapid test. I mean, given that you had no known exposures, no known symptoms… Like, how confident, how certain were you about these results? Like, were you in disbelief at all?  Avery Trufelman  03:44 Oh, well I mean, it seems likely, like, there are a lot of asymptomatic carriers. And also like, I'm not a scientist. I don't know. I feel like there's so much of a doctrine of healthy skepticism now. Like, Leticia Wright just posted that tweet about like, "Maybe we shouldn't trust the vaccines." And like, I don't want to be anti-medicine. Like, it would just be the perfect American a*****e thing to do, to test positive and be like, "Nah, I don't believe it." Like, of course, I, I quarantined, I didn't do anything. And my friends were so sweet. Like, my friend sent me groceries, my friend sent me flowers, which like, honestly, I really needed. It was very weird to be like, ah, I want a snack, and like, not be able to go to the store and get it. So, I waited a few days, and then I took more COVID tests, I took three more. I took like, a rapid and a PCR and a saliva test. And I was really stressed out, and those all came back negative. Sonia Paul  04:38 Interesting, because, you know, isn't it the case too that the rapid tests aren't that accurate anyway? I mean, like —  Avery Trufelman  04:45 Which I'm learning. Yeah, apparently, they're like, not even legal in Denmark. They're terrible science. Sonia Paul  04:50 So why do you think we have something called rapid tests? Avery Trufelman  04:54 Cuz we're busy, we need our test results now! And that was me, I was like, "I need these results today. Like, I'm so busy." Doing what? There's literally nowhere to go. I don't know why. So I feel like that's part of like a shift in the cultural ethos, is we need to be like, just wait three days for a PCR test. Yeah, so it was crazy. It was like, oh, it was a false positive. I still quarantined anyway, for the full time, just to be certain. As much as anyone can be certain about anything. But yeah, like, I think it's important to be skeptical of the rapid tests, but you know, it's like a fine line to walk, right? I think all the time about that brilliant New Yorker comic, where it shows a guy in an airplane. And he's like, "Who's sick of these elitist pilots flying the plane? Who thinks I should fly the plane?" It's like, that's America. Like, I don't want to be like, "Listen, as a human, I don't trust doctors." Like, of course I trust science, and I trust experts and the people who are risking their lives for us every day. So I don't know, I don't know what to make of it. I can't say it's like, fundamentally shifted the way I believe. I think I'm just like, that's a crazy — that was a crazy fluke. And it's really hard to know that my scenario was a best-case scenario? Like, I wasn't even sick. And it still sucked. It still sucks just to like, culturally, go around and tell everyone that I tested positive. And have some people be mad at me and like, nurse the uncertainty and quarantine. Like, all of that already sucked. I cannot imagine actually being sick on top of it. And, you know, my family got in a huge argument about whether or not I should come home for Thanksgiving. And just to realize how the policy and the science of this moment is actually just affecting our personal lives. And I'm sure similar problems are ricocheting throughout the country and throughout the world right now on all these divides. So, I mean, I hope, pray, inshallah, that, you know, I don't test positive again. But in a weird way, I'm kind of grateful for the experience, to have almost like, roleplayed, what it would have been like to test positive and to know the resources that are there. But man, that was a — that was a trip. Sonia Paul  07:08 Yeah, I mean, like... so you went through all the steps. You pretended — I mean, you did, theoretically, according to this rapid test, have COVID. But...I know you mentioned that it hasn't fundamentally altered the way you think. But, do you think this year, with all the uncertainty it has wrought... Has it made you question what it means to be certain about the future? Or certain about whatever present circumstances you thought you could count on? Avery Trufelman  07:44 That's a good question. You know, honestly, I think I've always prided myself as the kind of person who like, says yes to everything. If someone's like, want to go to this weird event, I'm like, "Yeah, totally." Like, even if it's not really my jam. Like, I'm a person who says yes to things. And honestly, like, you're right. The false-positive did change me in some ways because I was dating someone before. And I was kind of on the fence about it. Like, I don't know about this person. But whatever, like, winter is coming. I need a winter cuff. And uh...I mean, like, she's great, also. But I was like, I don't know if this is like the right thing to do right now. And I was like, trying to push my luck. I was like, trying to go to museums, I was trying to do a pottery class. And after that false positive, I was like, nah, like, none of this is worth it, for that scare. And so it helped me realize that, like, I do want a degree of certainty. But unfortunately, the only way I can do that is close myself — because now that I live in New York, my family is here. I live entirely too close to them. Like, now, you know, there's like a cold breeze coming on our necks right now. And I can feel winter approaching. It’s like, tunnel vision, time to settle down. Like, I'm just going to live in my apartment and do my job and see my family sometimes. And I think I can only do this because I hope — no, pray — that this is temporary, and it won't be forever. But, it's going to be like, a very unadventurous year. And that's a form of certainty. It's like, I guess, yeah, it — being boring. Sonia Paul  09:12 And like, it sounds like what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that having gone through the experience of so much uncertainty has made you want to rely on the only things you can be certain of right now, because it's too much to try to incorporate the less than certain aspects. Avery Trufelman  09:31 I mean, I think yes, but I don't know if it has to do with like, a fundamental desire for like, uncertainty or certainty in my soul. I think if I still lived on the other side of the country, I would be willing to, like, take more risks and, you know, like

Hi everyone, Well, the day is finally here. Election day. And here is some perspective on what you’re thinking about the election, from Josh in El Cerrito. Meanwhile, a story I started working on last October finally came out last Friday. It’s gotten a lot more attention than I anticipated, which I think is a good thing. Here’s a link to it if you’re interested, and here’s a link to a Twitter thread with some broader points (and you can see it’s also attracted a number of trolls). Speaking of trolls: To the person who signed up for Loitering with the email address “[email protected]” — bravo. You sure know how to not be discreet about your intentions. Ok, more again after the election! Take care. XO, Sonia Music for this work, "Loitering on the Election", is a derivative of "Gaena" by Blue Dot Sessions, used under CC BY-NC 4.0. "Gaena" is licensed under CC BY-NC 4.0 by Sonia Paul. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

I’d love to know. And if you’re willing, I’d love to share your thoughts on an upcoming episode of Loitering. Just record a voice memo on your phone — any voice recording app you have should work — and email it directly back to me. Please include your name and where you’re located. If you’d rather not reveal your name, that’s fine. AND, if you’re not in the U.S., that’s also ok. But tell us, what does it look like from afar? Recording voice memos is super easy. In fact, it’s what I did to record this episode. :) Please forward this note along to your friends and networks who might be interested. I’m not looking for any particular political views, but I am interested in stitching together an aural snapshot of our thoughts at this moment in history, whatever they may be. Also, if you follow me on social media, you may have seen that I’m currently doing some research for a story I’m developing on self-care. What exactly is the story? Well, that’s what I’m trying to find out! If you’re willing to fill out this simple Google form, I’d super appreciate it. Thanks so much & be well, Sonia This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Heylo, You may remember from a previous Loitering episode and newsletter that I mentioned an interview with Yashica Dutt, activist and author of Coming Out As Dalit, was en route. Here it is, finally. It’s actually an interview we did last spring — before a US lawsuit alleging caste discrimination was filed against Cisco (and some news on that: The California Department of Fair Employment and Housing is removing the lawsuit from the federal court and refiling it in a state court); before debates around caste also came up with the Netflix show Indian Matchmaking; and before Isabel Wilkerson’s book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents also released. (And also, before Yashica turned a year older!) It’s incredible how much movement caste is finding in US conversations in just over a year, but it’s still an extraordinarily nuanced issue. This interview with Yashica is one of the most insightful interviews I’ve ever done and digs deep into her personal experience, as well as extrapolates how we can better understand caste and the ways it manifests. If you’re mostly only a reader of Loitering, please also listen! The auditory experience of the interview is quite different. I experimented with scoring a little bit more as well, so let me know what you think. You can hear and read in the interview that we’re often using “lower” and “upper” to denote caste hierarchies, but — and this is where we can thank conversations that have been happening over the past year — a better and more sensitive way to think about this is “oppressed,” or “stigmatized,” and “elite,” or “privileged” castes. And a note, this interview is heavy and contains descriptions of suicide, so please take care of yourself. xx If you or someone you know is in crisis, call the U.S. National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255, text TALK to 741741 or visit SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources for additional resources. Sonia Paul  00:11 So just to start out, can you please introduce yourself, your name, your age where you're from what you do.  Yashica Dutt  00:19 Hi, I'm Yashica Dutt. I am 33 years old. I am originally from New Delhi, India. But I've been living in the city since 2014. I recently wrote a book. It's called Coming Out as Dalit. It is just available in the Indian subcontinent for now. But it's a book about my journey of growing up as an untouchable person, quote, unquote, in India, but hiding the fact that I was a lower caste person, and how that got me a front-row seat to what it means to be hiding your identity in India, especially in the late 90s, in the early to late 90s, 2000s. And then till 2014, till I left. I was a journalist back home in New Delhi, I also try and unpack the issue of caste, as it means to modern-day India and how it has a social and cultural impact on the country. Also, in the book, I've tried to look at the history of the movement and how it has parallels with the civil rights movement and the Black Lives Matter movement in the United States, because this is where I was living. And this is how I was being impacted. And I was thinking about the ideas of how race and cast collide. So a couple of chapters deal with that. But overall, it's the spine of a memoir, but it has nonfiction and historical backgrounds and facts. It's a wide scope book.  Sonia Paul  01:45 Yeah. I mean, I read it. It's great. Congratulations. You know, I'm glad you like, really preface what the book is about, because I'm going to ask you a lot about that. And, you know, I just want to also clarify, so when you say you live in the city, you live in New York City right now? Yashica Dutt  02:00 I live in New York City right now.  Sonia Paul  02:02 Okay. Um, you know, you already answered my second question, which is like, briefly, what is the book about? And I think, you know, just to start off, if you could go back to the moment in your own personal history, where you realized your family's caste background. And what exactly took place to make you realize that your family was a member of the so-called untouchable class, also known as Dalit class?  Yashica Dutt  02:30 If you ask me to chart a moment in my personal history or childhood, where I realized I was born in an untouchable caste, I don't think I can come up with that, because ever since my earliest memories started forming, I remember growing up with the reality that I was from a lower caste and I had to make up for it, to fit in with the society, with the rest of the caste-based society in India. And the things that I had to do, the measures that I had to take. How I had to be careful about not talking about my caste, how I had to observe how girls in my school — I went to an all-girls school in Rajasthan, which is a state in India — how they behaved and then try and mimic those behaviors. So it was a whole process. And there is a concept of passing in African American culture that I read about. And it felt very similar to that, that you have to adopt the mannerisms and the behaviors of the other culture. And I was very young when my parents told me about how I had to hide my identity and how I had to lie about it if I wanted to not be discriminated. It was just a matter of fact reality. It wasn't something that one day I woke up, and I was being told that I from an untouchable caste. It was just an idea that existed in my reality, like any other idea, like I was five or six or that I lived in a certain place. Similarly, I was lower caste. So it's just permeated in my whole existence.  Sonia Paul  03:58 I guess I'm just to help us comprehend what it means to be lower caste. What were some of the indicators, in your experience, that were the hallmarks of that caste identity? Like, what were the experiences in your life that were telling you that you were lower caste? Yashica Dutt  04:20 The experiences in my life were — first of all, I have to preface this by saying that these are just my experiences. There are different kinds of lower caste experiences based on the location of class, and gender, and whether they're in an urban or rural setting, those ideas and experiences change completely. So this is just me and I can just speak for myself. But, what it meant to be lower caste when I was a young person, when I was a child, was that some people in my family, not many generations ago, like maybe even my grandmother, they were, they were involved in the work of manual scavenging, which, for the listeners who don't know, it literally translates to cleaning human excrement. Sometimes bare hands, sometimes with no equipment and often scooping it up and carrying it in wooden baskets on top of your heads. So it was a shameful part of my identity. It was something that my parents told me that we had to overcome that we have to hide that because if other people find out that that's our history — which is frankly, I don't feel any shame about it anymore, because that is not the history that we chose. And there is pride in doing whatever we do and what we were forced to do on the base of our caste. So I have no shame in it anymore. But as a five-year-old, as a six-year-old, that shame was ingrained deeply.  So that was the biggest marker, that first of all — you had to completely lie about who you were, you had to lead a different kind of life, when you were home, and you had to lead a different kind of life in your school or out with friends. And the other thing was that we had a different last name. So for example, my grandfather's last name was Das, D-A-S. And my dad's last name was Dutt. And my last name is Dutt. And I just didn't understand how those two are different because other families in my, my school or my neighborhood, they all shared the same last name, but we just didn't. And it didn't make sense to me. And when I would ask my parents, even as a young kid, they would say that this is just how it is, you will understand it when you grow older. So that sort of told me and the whole production of pretending that you are somebody else, right from the start, sort of told me that we were different, and not only different in a good way, but different in a way that we had to hide who we were. I didn't know what caste meant, as maybe a five, six-year-old, but I knew that it was something that was not good. And it was something that would bring me shame, that would cause people to laugh at me, that would cause people to not want to sit next to me, or not want to come to my house for birthday parties, for example. So as a young child, those experiences shaped my idea of who I was and what I had to do to make a space for myself in this world.  Sonia Paul  07:09 And so with regard to last names, can you talk a little bit about how caste is exemplified in a last name? Like, how should we understand what your grandfather's last name meant, versus your father's last name, versus your last name?  Yashica Dutt  07:29 Sure, so our family name that none of us carry anymore is Nidaniya, and that itself is an indicator that we are the Bhangi caste, b-h-a-n-g-i, the caste of manual scavengers. And like many other people in India do, we get rid of the names that are indicators of our origins and our castes. And at that time, if you live in an Indian society for long enough, you'll understand — you're made to learn what last name belongs to which caste. Even I wouldn't know the intricacies, I wouldn't be able to see a last name and say you are that caste, but I would know whether you're an upper caste or low caste person. So yeah, I think growing up you understand, like a Sharma last name, a Mishra last name, these two last names are Brahmin last names, which is the so-called uppermost castes, then an Agarwal last name is, if you have Agarwal friends, they are from the merchant class, which is also an upper caste. Which is not to say that there wasn't an ascending scale of superiority, it definitely existed. But in modern day In

Hello, friends! This episode of Loitering features an interview with the one and only Vidur Malik. Please listen and follow along below. Sonia Paul  00:13 Hello, everyone, welcome to Loitering, the occasional but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. And today I am loitering over outside pho with a very special guest. Can you please introduce yourself? Vidur Malik  00:30 My name is Victor Malik. I am a associate marriage and family therapist who lives in Hayward. Sonia   00:36 And also, as you can hear, we are very much outside. We are in outdoor dining at a pho place in the bay. And, yeah, you can hear some children and families around us. But it's also a very special occasion because Vidur and I are catching up. And so, Vidur, the reason we know each other has to do with our time in journalism school together. So can you explain a little bit about your history as a journalist, and how that led you actually into an entirely different line of work? Vidur   01:08 Yeah. So when I was growing up, I was trying to figure out what I was good at, and what I was passionate about. And I always knew I liked sports. And I always knew I like to write. So I thought, why not combine those two and become a sports writer. And I kind of took that kind of very naive idea through high school and college and worked on my school papers and studied journalism, and went to Columbia where I met you. And at that point, I thought that sports journalism was my calling. And I was just going to do it and not ask any questions about it. But as I got into the field and started working daily, as a journalist, I realized it just was not fulfilling for me. And I didn't feel like I could cut it as a journalist. I didn't think I had the qualities that somebody like you has or other reporters have.  Sonia   01:47 That's a lie Vidur   01:47 It's not! Like, I didn't think that — you know, you have to be tenacious, you have to be okay, working unpredictable and long hours. And you have to be okay annoying people and asking questions that will upset people. And that always freaks me out. And I had to psych myself up every time I did an interview, or like, just went out and did reporting. And that was not sustainable. I couldn't do that into my 70s, you know, so I had to do something that I didn't dread doing every day. And I had always enjoyed mentoring and sort of just supporting people who are going through things. And I had done peer mentoring in high school and college. And I really liked the idea of just sitting with somebody, and not necessarily solving their problems, but helping them figure out a solution that works for them. And the more I thought about it, the more I was like, you know, you should be in some sort of counseling or psychology. And so I was living in New York, after finishing Columbia. And I wanted to go back home to California. And I applied to the Santa Clara University School of Counseling Psychology, and I got in, and I haven't looked back, and I work as an associate marriage and family therapist who is working on getting my license. Sonia   02:50 Okay, that's quite a story. Also, I really want to unwrap more though, like the transferable skills between being a journalist and being a therapist. What do you see as some of the things that maybe you're taking away from actually being in journalism school that journalists themselves might underappreciate? Vidur   03:11 Well, information gathering for one, knowing when to ask a follow-up question, knowing how to phrase questions to get a lot of information. That's a big one. And then the second one is just writing quickly. As a clinician, anybody will tell you who works in the field, there's a lot of paperwork, and a lot of documentation, and assessments and treatment plans. And often you're doing more paperwork than actual therapy. So being able to write quickly, and write clearly quickly is helpful for me, because I can write a note in a few minutes and kind of distill an hour-long therapy session into a few sentences and feel like I can do that pretty effectively. And journalism helped me a lot with that.  Sonia   03:48 Wow, did you feel like, self-conscious, though, about making a career switch? Because I think there are a lot of journalists who talk about like, 'oh, what would it be like to leave journalism,' but not even just with journalism, but with any industry — sometimes it's like seen as taboo, or it's just too daunting to actually make that switch. So what were — what were you thinking when you were actually going through this decision? Vidur   04:11 I only feel self-conscious about it when I talk about it with other journalists. Because I think — Sonia   04:16 — I hope not me,  Vidur   04:17 No. Because the worry is — they might think, well, Vidur couldn't cut it in this field. And I kind of think that too. Like, I felt like I was good at journalism, and I got generally good feedback. And I worked hard. But I just knew it wasn't sustainable for me. So I think some of the self-consciousness just comes through when I talk to people who are in the field and are probably gonna do it for a long time. And, you know, sometimes they feel like, oh, I don't measure up to them. But, you know, I work through that. And it doesn't stop me from telling people what I'm doing now. So that's really the only time I get self-conscious about it. Sonia   04:48 That's so interesting, but like in terms of measuring up, you're actually like doing a really great thing right now. Like, I mean, being a counselor, especially in this era that we're in right now. So can you talk a little bit more about the work you're doing? You're working with high school students, right? Vidur   05:04 Yeah, I'm a clinician at a high school in the Bay Area. So right now we're doing virtual learning. So logistically, that just presents a challenge in terms of how do you do the work over a computer or over the phone. It's work that has always been done, you know, with two people in the same room, and kind of that, that feedback that you get from being in the same room with somebody that's nonverbal, that you can't quite like quantify. And that kind of doesn't really exist over the phone or over a laptop, but you just find ways to get around it. And I think now more than ever, people just need space to check in about themselves. So even if it's done remotely, or virtually, the space itself is still important. Sonia   05:45 I mean, I can't imagine — well, I can a little bit because I have some friends who are teachers — but what it's like to be a high school student and learn in a pandemic. Can you talk a bit broadly, like while respecting patient confidentiality, about some of the issues that young people are going through that maybe we might take for granted as adults or working professionals going through our own hurdles? Vidur   06:07 Yeah. I think that generally, such a big part of school, and education, is just socializing with peers and understanding just how to interact with people your own age, how to have conversations, how to make friends, how to handle conflicts, and resolve them. And that's a lot harder to do when you're not in school every day with your classmates in a class. So I think that social element of school that we all probably took for granted, I know I took for granted, just doesn't exist anymore. The idea of like, being with the same classmates, maybe throughout K through 12, being with the same classmates in the same class every day, that just doesn't exist. So I think that social element is missing. And I think, you know, I wonder what it's like for our students to go through that. I also think that in terms of the education itself, you know, it's a lot easier to get distracted, when you're at your home environment in front of your laptop, as opposed to when you're in school, you kind of know, I'm in school mode, right now, when I can get home, I could play PlayStation or do anything else I do at home. But now, all those distractions are right there in front of you. And it's hard to get away from them when you don't actually leave your house. So that's a huge issue that I think a lot of students are facing right now is just, there's no boundaries between home and school. That doesn't really exist right now. Sonia   07:20 Yeah, it's like a sort of lead up to... there's no boundaries between work and personal life for a lot of working professionals. Um, how do you advise your students to cope? I mean, you can't necessarily give a solution to their problems, but you could advise them on how they can work toward a solution. So, how are you doing that? Vidur   07:43 So I think — I try to support my students with a lot of mindfulness nowadays, I think has been helpful. So you know, if they find themselves getting distracted, while they're in class, having a point of focus in their room, whether it's like a poster or a post-it note or a picture that they can use to kind of reset themselves and just get back into the moment can be helpful. So I'll recommend a lot of like quick mindfulness activities that a student can do, no matter where they are kind of at anytime. I think in addition to that, just taking breaks. So, really just utilizing those breaks, to just go for a walk, get some food, just whatever they need to do to kind of safely cope with getting through the school day is helpful. So I think those two things are things that I recommend, and then just again, having this space where they're like they're meeting with me once a week to check in, you know, just to know that whatever they're carrying, that they do have a place to get it out whether it's with me or another trusted adult or a friend. Sonia   08:33 Right. So in addition to doing this work, you're also working part-time on the weekend, counseling adults. So from an outside perspective, it seems like you're surrounded by a lot of people who may just li

Heylo, It’s been quite a while since Loitering last dropped… not that some significant loitering hasn’t happened since then. But as we all know, 2020 is the year where hustling doesn’t seem to make as much sense as it once did, given the broader forces, news, and circumstances around us. Life is exhausting! And sometimes, you need to just concentrate on holding the ice cream cone rather than adding more flavors to it (for more insight on that, please see the headline photo, taken in the late summer of 2018, and listen to the latest episode of Loitering with Evan, Adam, and Jesse Adam, featuring special guest co-producer Evan). Meanwhile, while I did have a wonderful Loitering zoom session with Loitering’s “target audience” — also known as my friend Fonzie, also known as Mr. D :) — earlier this summer, and have an episode with Yashica Dutt, author of the book Coming Out As Dalit, that’s been in the works for a long time, both are TBD for now. Mr. D is an English teacher and Dean of students at a high school in the Bay Area, so our conversation about teaching and learning in the pandemic quickly became antiquated as the news cycle kept moving (we hope to re-Loiter later this fall). And sadly, just as I was going through final edits of my interview with Yashica, my audio file (and its backup files!) corrupted. :( Then I just got wrapped up with work, particularly a story for which I first interviewed Yashica last year. To make a long story short, the delays around that story (which, to be clear, is now a different story on the same topic) have very much to do with inequities in our media industry, discussions which inflamed as the Black Lives Matter protests became the largest movement in American history. Twitter has especially become the hotspot for journalists to vent about their struggles, and for a while this summer, it felt like the trauma and frustrations associated with being a journalist or producer of color in American media was surrounding me too much — even as I was also trying to figure out the best way to navigate my own experiences. So rather than hoping for retweets that might give me a false impression of validation and closure, I opted to make it very clear (once again) in emails and subsequent phone calls to the place where a certain experience of mine did transpire — and man, talk about exhausting. 2020 has been a year of reckoning for everyone. While the media industry seems sincere in trying to circumvent its lack of diversity when it comes to coverage and who is in the position to shape and report such stories, with the way journalism economics is going, it also just feels… late. And, therefore, a more extractive process at times for a person like me. Is the journalism industry going to stop laying off reporters? Will they stop tightening their freelance budgets and instead maybe consider hiring one of these freelancers full-time, or at least offer them the chance to do expensive, deep-dive reporting? Probably not, at least not to those first few questions. It’s difficult to not then sometimes feel like a guinea pig for how XX organization can do better when they want to have these phone calls. The other party’s well-meaning can only mean something when actual action is the result. And in this environment, some full-time staffers at news organizations have opted to leave their jobs and create their own individual subscription news coverage on this platform you’re reading right now. This is a trend I’ve been following for a while, with both curiosity and trepidation. Most news coverage on this focuses on staffers who are choosing to go independent, rather than independents who have maybe fallen into that model for other reasons. My current feelings on this trend center on observations that the folks Substack is recruiting to be star independents — a sort of “journalism influencer” — are people who, at their media companies beforehand, were the ones who were actually encouraged and validated for their contributions, and given the chance to do the deep reporting for which they became known. So when it comes to “fixing” a crisis in news coverage, there’s still a huge gaping hole about the problems journalists of color have been venting about all along. I am sure there are exceptions to this, and I would love to discuss this further and be proven wrong since I do think Substack is doing something interesting. But these are some of my current thoughts. That being said, I am not too proud to hold back in asking you, if you are not already a subscriber, to now subscribe. :) On an entirely different note, we are officially in Libra season, if that means anything to you. While I am not necessarily in the cohort of millennials turning to astrology as the main framework for understanding life, I will admit I look forward to seeing what Susan Miller has in store for me every month and try to imagine how it will or won’t make sense. But this year, I am excited about Libra season mostly because it signifies something else in my house: kombucha. Let’s backtrack to June, when I saw this email on a local Bay Area listserve I’m on. OBVIOUSLY, this captured my interest. Jun scoby, ey? I got in touch with the email poster, a man named Marcus. But it turned out I would be far down the list of others who got in touch with him before me. Upon learning about this, I mentioned it was ok, no worries because I’m not that hardcore. Then it turned into this other exchange, where I learned a bit about comparative resilience. I was a bit overwhelmed at the information and had to explain myself. Marcus got back to me the very next day. He was excited. He suggested that since kombucha scobies are a bit more resilient — albeit take more time to brew — it might be a better option for someone starting out. So low and behold, some weeks later, I walked over to meet Marcus at a safe social distance and came back with a scoby. He also gave me an entire rundown about how to brew kombucha and was so excellent at it that — with his permission — I am now sharing this presentation with you here. Marcus and I live in the same neighborhood, and as I walked back with this scoby specimen, a few people eyed it (and me) warily. It really did look disgusting. Then me, being the tired and busy and burnt out person I am, let the scoby sit for a while instead of brewing up some kombucha right away. It was only thanks to my housemate, who has experience in the kombucha department, that we finally got things going. Here is a brief illustration of what transpired that COVID Friday night. We wrote a note to ourselves on the ready date. We will let you know how it turned out. Some links: Here’s a story that keeps running through my mind, and a podcast interview with the writer of that story, which I similarly can’t stop thinking about. The podcast interview with the writer, Jiayang Fan, vocalizes the depths of conversations I personally wish we had more of — around what it means to create stories and create the self. Speaking of seeing the self, Yashica Dutt wrote this review of Isabel Wilkerson’s new book Caste that — especially if you’re interested in caste and the implications of that book — you should read. The children born on 9/11 are about to vote, which makes you wonder about what it must be like to grow up with your life defined by tragedy (also, Sabrina Toppa pointed out that the focus group didn’t include any Muslim or Arab kids born on 9/11, which would more than likely reveal realities and experiences someone like Paul Krugman also seems oblivious to). I hope you’re listening to the new iteration of The Cut Podcast. Today’s news adds to the collective burden so many communities — but particularly Black communities — are facing. These two episodes of The Daily about Breonna Taylor and what transpired the night police killed her are worth listening to. Here’s Part 1, here’s Part 2, and here’s a newsletter about the reporter and producers’ process. This piece about why we’re not mourning the 200,000+ people who have died from COVID-19 is a sad but necessary read. This line in particular drives it home: “Properly mourning and memorializing the dead would require a national reckoning with how government at every level mishandled the pandemic, how the US failed so much in contrast to other countries, and how structural inequalities made the virus much deadlier for Black and Latinx Americans.” My mini beat is pretty relevant this year. Here’s a recent piece I reported that was co-published in The Guardian and The Juggernaut. I have a couple of stories I’ve been working on for a long time coming out soon too, so I hope to send another Loitering update sooner rather than later! P.S. Don’t forget to register to vote. P.P.S. Don’t forget to get a flu shot either. I’d love feedback, or just to hear from you, so please feel free to get in touch. And if you know someone you think may like to read or listen to Loitering, please share. Thank you. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com

Hi everyone, I’m doing Loitering a little differently today. No transcript — what you’ll read here is different from what you will listen to. Hope you’ll do both. On Friday night, I went to a protest in downtown Oakland. Just a few days prior I had been asking friends how they felt to meet in person while safe social distancing, as a sort of temperature check to see how people were feeling given COVID-19. But by Friday, it was clear that many people’s first big social gathering in the pandemic was going to be a protest. It was for me. I reached out to a producer at a show on New York Public Radio I sometimes contribute to, The Takeaway, and while I didn’t get a formal commission — they couldn’t predict how the news would play out over the weekend to know what Monday’s show would be — they alerted their executive producer and we agreed to stay in touch. This is what’s called “stringing” in journalism. Without a formal go-ahead, I could have said no, but the gravity of the moment was too big. A friend came over and we went together. Social distancing in this kind of situation is impossible, as you can see. And it’s not like the people there were oblivious either. “The risk in the minds of many Black and Brown people is worth it,” Cat Brooks and Rebecca Ruiz of the Anti-Police Terror Project said in a statement to The Mercury News about the protests. “It’s a conundrum because we want to live but, also, we want to live.” I didn’t end up doing any interviews on Friday — there was too much to absorb, too much movement to feel like I could concentrate on that while also taking the necessary pictures to post to social media for this kind of breaking news situation. But beyond that, I also admittedly didn’t have it in me to ask people why they were there. Just as it’s exhausting for black people to constantly have to explain themselves to the world, it’s exhausting to be the journalist on the other end asking them to repeat the trauma of their lives — and for what, the sake of a good sound bite? For what audience? It’s so painfully obvious why they’re there. The crowd that night was mostly younger people of all backgrounds. I didn’t need to ask. I woke up the next two days feeling heavier than I have in a long time, Sunday especially. After spending a good portion of the night scrolling through Twitter and following in real-time the violence and frenzy that escalated, I started Sunday morning biking to the stores nearby that had been broken into and looted, to scope out what had happened. And who was doing that looting? The passive voice is shining at this moment because it’s hard to pinpoint. But also, as Trevor Noah and others have pointed out, spending so much time trying to distinguish between protestors and looters and rioters misses the point: The current social contract is not working. Later on Sunday, a car caravan protest organized by the Anti-Police Terror Project began at the Port of Oakland, to move throughout the city. The Anti-Police Terror Project has been organizing around police terror since the murder of Oscar Grant in 2009 at Oakland’s Fruitvale BART Station. Its goal is to engage in what they call “radical reform policies” that don’t reinforce the status quo, its co-founder Cat Brooks told me. By then, I was back in touch with the executive producer at The Takeaway and more motivated to go and interview the protestors (this is where this Loitering interview with Fay and Susan comes from). As some have commented — and this is mostly a critique of national media — many news reports are drowning out the voices of demonstrators. The car caravan, though, attracted thousands of people, including a lot of families, older people, white people and POCs wanting to be present but also wanting to social distance. People were on foot, bike and car, wearing signs on their backs and affixed to their car doors, and listening to the organizers pump up the crowd with music and directions on 88.1 FM — which, according to my friend Wikipedia, seems to be a station owned by El Cerrito High in the Bay Area. Not sure the backstory of how that came into fruition (“I have no idea,” Cat Brooks told me. “I have an amazing team”). But it was a novel form of protest, especially in a pandemic. You can read more about it in this article by Johana Bhuiyan at the LA Times. And below are Fay Rohrbach and Susan Schulman, whose interview you can listen to above. Fay is the one in the orange mask. Also… if you’re alarmed at the level of violence police are escalating against black people, protestors and media workers, good. It is alarming. What are you going to do with that knowledge? My cousin texted me last night if I knew whether blackout Tuesday meant more people would be protesting. It was the first time I had heard of it, although if you’re on Instagram today, you may be seeing it all over your feeds. A social media protest can often become an empty gesture, especially on a platform like Instagram owned by a company its own workers are criticizing for its inactions on President Trump’s inflammatory comments. But I at least had to be a bit more myopic in considering this black square. Instagram, for me, is a visual diary, a mesh of photos related to work as well as family, friends and moments that take my breath away. Thinking about others like George Floyd whose breaths are taken away for entirely different reasons, the choice is clear: I want to remember this moment in history and what I was doing at this time. It’s true that too much social media (which I know I’ve been guilty of!) can be fatiguing. Here are a few links of the audio-visual variety that require some sit-down viewing and listening as opposed to skimming: Listen to The Takeaway’s segment on the pain fueling demonstrations (and hear some Oakland too). “There’s no right way to protest because that’s what protest is.” And more wisdom from Uncle Trevor. I recommend listening in full. A brief story on a big issue I reported for Marketplace News. A look at how the Indian police is trying to rebrand in a pandemic. I’d love feedback, or just to hear from you, so please feel free to get in touch. And if you know someone you think may like to read or listen to Loitering, please share. Thanks. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit loitering.substack.com